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Oscar Niemeyer’s French communist party headquarters

129 points by davikr 4y ago

phowat 4y ago
Niemeyer is a national treasure, but I find his role in helping create a capital in the middle of nowhere in Brazil extremely reprehensible. Brasília was created to keep politicians away from the big population centers and avoid protests.
- mc32 4y ago
  My understanding is they wanted the interior to get developed and take power/influence away from the coast/near coast & kneecap RdJ/SP rivalry ). Also wanted to "cut from their colonial past". Protests (and protestors) are not a problem for dictators (North Korea, Russia, Iran). I don't understand the siren call of Communism on early XX - midcentury intellectuals. It's like they didn't go to personally understand the atrocities happening in these so-called worker and peasant paradises -what meatgrinders they were. How did ideology so overcome their ability to see what was happening in those places?
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      As a general rule, "the people I don't like are just sadists" is usually neither true nor a productive attitude.
      - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        As a general rule the people I don't like are highly specialized computer technology professionals who have the hubris to think their level of in-field expertise carries over into issues regarding how to architect society.
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      What are your thoughts on the commodity -> money -> commodity mode of exchange compared to the money -> commodity > money mode of exchange? Alternative question, when the English moved to a system of tenant farmers while the French did not, was it necessarily the case that capitalism would need to arise in England and spread across the world? There's plenty of very interesting economic and social topics that are covered by the likes of Marx, Gramsci, and Melksins Wood. I'd suggest not engaging with the discussion and calling it "perverse" is seeking a position of willful anti intellectualism. You might not agree with all the points, sure, but they are raised in good faith and backed by many many intellectual discussions over decades and decades.
    - VictorPath 4y ago
      > Chomsky passionately defending the Khmer Rouge The US began arming the Khmer Rouge in 1979 into the 1980s because the US wanted the Khmer Rouge to take over Cambodia again (well they didn't take over in 1975, the prince who the CIA ousted took over again technically).
      - cuteboy19 4y ago
        You realise that's even worse for Chomsky right? He is an apologist for a genocidal communist regime that also happens to be propped up by the imperialist pig dogs. That's so much worse
    - mc32 4y ago
      The Vietnamese, who were no angels, when it came to in-country human rights, were so appalled by what the Red Khmer were doing, they decided enough was enough and invaded their ideological kin-spirit to rid it of that vile and disgusting regime.
      - refurb 4y ago
        It's more complex. The Communist Vietnamese originally backed the Khmer Rouge. Then they had a split and the Khmer Rouge attacked Vietnam border towns and committed some pretty horribly atrocities. The Vietnam brought down the Khmer Rouge, but it all started as an attempt to protect their own population.
  - idiocratic 4y ago
    While in some places Communism has definitely been responsible for atrocities, in many countries (especially Western Europe, Asia and South America) Communist parties have been on the frontline of liberation movements, indigenous rights, human rights, workers’ conditions, etc. That’s why for many Communism != atrocities.
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      100% this. Socialist and communist critiques of our current and historical modes of production identify some systemic issues. It's worth engaging with those critiques more deeply than "communism bad!"
      - mc32 4y ago
        Oh, no doubt they had lots of bright "promise" exemplified by the fists of virile men and fecund women reaching the mountain top having vanquished capitalist evil, triumphantly raising the hammer and sickle and little Ivan joins in the parade... But it was all illusion and never delivered. They always ended in oppression, regression and failed experiments (social, economic, environmental, etc.)
        socialismisok 4y ago
        I think there's a healthy discussion to be had about, for instance Cuba. Yes, poverty is still high but sanctions are still oppressive. They have higher literacy rates than Canada or the US, they have solid medical care, and they've started from a much, much worse position. Similar story with Vietnam. There's a discussion to be had about where they started, where they are now, and what happened in the interim. To be clear, I'm not saying these countries have done no wrong. They aren't shining beacons, but it is worth examining them in a thoughtful way. It's not like the US (where I live) is a shining beacon either. Also, I'd argue there are degrees and varieties of both socialism and communism. Is Mondragon socialist? Is Sweden? Is France? What about small council communism and Anarcho communism?
        4y ago
  - fallingfrog 4y ago
    Most of the members of the French Resistance during the Second World War were communists, so the communist party had a certain cache as being freedom fighters in postwar France. Not only that but communists were at the forefront of the early union movements in most countries, as well as the fights for racial justice, womens rights and so on. So communism had a very different reputation.
    - mc32 4y ago
      You make some valid observations about them using social wedges to drive participation. It was a means to an end --it happened in Africa, South America, Asia, etc. but yet, once communist those promises never came to fruition. In principle many of the constitutions of communist countries afford(ed) citizens more freedoms to the people than say the US constitution, but in practice that was blatantly not the case with a bit of happy time in some parts of eastern Europe for a few years before the Soviets went in to quash the threat and establish harder regimes.
      - fallingfrog 4y ago
        I would counter that by saying that despots have existed all through human history, and have always cloaked themselves in claims of their power coming from god, or them being actual gods, or something like that, so if the batch of despots that cropped up after ww2 used communism as their justification it’s hardly surprising- that was the set ideas floating around at the time that could be used to make them appear virtuous. And of course, by doing so they could get Soviet funding. Of course, in places like Cambodia, atrocities did take place that were really inspired by some demented but sincere interpretations of communism. I would say, 20th century communism’s great failure is that it attempts to abolish politics itself by trying to create a utopia where nobody ever disagrees with one another. This is impossible, and totalitarian by definition.
        mc32 4y ago
        That explains the regimes coming to power via deceptive means and methods -all par for the course... but it doesn't explain the infatuation by intellectuals from the early to late mid XX century. It's like someone seeing Mussolini and being captivated by the act and not digging further.
  - rdtsc 4y ago
    > I don't understand the siren call of Communism on early XX - midcentury intellectuals I think it boils down to “enemy of my enemy”. Their main enemy was the establishment, which means capitalism, corporatism and so on. Communism was its declared enemy number one, so to be edgy and radical they picked that. If the West was trampling over some poor country, whatever that country’s political or cultural preferences, they automatically become appealing to anti-establishment intellectuals in the West as a way to show sympathy.
  - Gibbon1 4y ago
    I think to do that you have to actually look at how corrupt and awful eastern European and colonial powers were. Combine that with a belief that this time it's different Re the strong history of the new boss being far worse than the previous one. And human nature to believe that your tribe is beyond reproach or at least justified (rolls eyes).
  - kubb 4y ago
    I guess they engaged with a critique of capitalism that wasn't (and isn't) available to someone with a more basic education, and communism was seen as an alternative. A communist back then would point to the capitalist countries committing horrible atrocities of colonialism and slavery. Another factor would be a rhetoric of liberation. Either you fight against the bourgeoisie, or they will keep sucking your blood as long as you live. That's why conflicts were seen as inevitable. I doubt anyone condoned violent mass murder. Khmer Rouge and the Cultural Revolution happened in the second half of the XX century.
    - rbanffy 4y ago
      > A communist back then would point to the capitalist countries committing horrible atrocities Unlike now, where whenever we point to capitalism, we point to shining beacons of freedom and humanity. ;-) > I doubt anyone condoned violent mass murder The fact the Soviet Union and China didn't succeed at implementing an ideal utopian society doesn't prevent others from trying something slightly different (let's say, socdem) in hopes it'll suck less than unregulated capitalism
  - neel_k 4y ago
    This is really easy to explain: all of the colonial empires were horrifying engines of atrocity, oppression and death. Since imperial apologists hated socialism, that made it a very attractive ideology -- if the worst people alive hate something, it's got to have something to recommend it, right? The Madras famine of 1877 (in which over 8 million people died) is characteristic. The British Empire didn't just fail to help, it actually made it illegal to offer food relief, on the grounds that it would distort the labour market and violate free-market principles. If you witnessed that, wouldn't you think the market and Moloch were one and the same? It's worth noting that "concentration camp" is not the English translation of "Konzentrationslager": it's actually the other way around. The German word is the translation of an English phrase used to describe the British Empire's interment camps in the Boer War. IMO, it's impossible to look at, say, a picture of Lizzie van Zyl and not see a premonition of the Holocaust. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_van_Zyl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_van_Zyl
    - wikfwikf 4y ago
      You are technically correct about the origin of 'concentration camp'. But this point in relation to the Holocaust is so pedantic as to border on denial. Most people who died in the Holocaust did not die in 'concentration camps'. About a quarter of them were killed in mass shootings and buried in mass graves. Another quarter were sent to something better described as 'extermination facilities'. There was no camp and no concentration - all victims were gassed to death on arrival. The most famous concentration camp - Auschwitz - also had a facility like this where around a million people died immediately on arrival. While Auschwitz did have the standard features of concentration camps - imprisonment, starvation, forced labor, and brutal punishment and torture, most people who died in Auschwitz never experienced any of this - they were simply executed on arrival. So, while the 'concentration camps' were of course unimaginably terrible - and not to excuse other crimes against humanity such as the Boer camps, the gulags, etc - to compare other atrocities to the Nazi Holocaust simply because of the presence of concentration camps erases and minimizes the true extent of Nazi crimes against Jews and Roma.
  - wikfwikf 4y ago
    Perhaps you are making the fallacy of comparing early 20th century communist regimes with today's capitalist society. If you compared them with early 20th century capitalism or colonialism they start to look much more benign.
    - int_19h 4y ago
      They really don't, though. You can even look at quality of life in Russia itself - conveniently one of the more oppressive capitalist societies at the time - before and after the Bolshevik revolution. (There's this myth that's popular with some lefties that Soviets weren't really that oppressive until Stalin. It's not true - mass executions were already in full swing in 1918.)
      - wikfwikf 4y ago
        This is simply untrue. Mass executions of (certain subsets of) the middle and upper classes, alongside electrification and land reform for the rural poor and trade unions and healthcare for the urban poor, meant an extremely significant improvement in the average quality of life for the Russian population.
        int_19h 4y ago
        Have you ever heard the words "prodrazvyorstka" or "kombed"? Bolsheviks literally robbed the peasants - who, to remind, was the actual majority of the population by a factor of 4x of so - blind at gunpoint to feed their forced industrialization in the cities, triggering more than one famine in the process (Holodomor being the most famous). If you look at early Soviet history, it's littered with peasant uprisings for this exact reason. In my hometown in Russia, such an uprising was big enough that Soviets decided to use chemical weapons against the rebels; ironically, I used to live on a street that was named after the guy who signed that order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion
    - rob74 4y ago
      ...or comparing communist regimes with the (capitalist-supported) German Nazi regime.
- ajot 4y ago
  Hindsight is 20/20. Now we do have empirical knowledge (from Brazil, but also Côte d'Ivoire, Nigeria and Myanmar) that moving the capital away doesn't solve any problem. Not protests, and definitely not a population concentration and disparity. We gotta find better solutions to those problems.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    Yep. Egypt is trying to do it now. Vox had a great video on that recently.
    - formerly_proven 4y ago
      MBS of KSA has a similar fever dream.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    The move from Paris to Versailles by Louis 14 was mostly that, so we’ve had that hindsight for a few centuries now.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    See also: Washington, DC
  - mejutoco 4y ago
    Other examples of capitals moving: Bonn to Berlin (Germany), Bursa to Ankara (Turkey)
    - buildsjets 4y ago
      Constantinople to Istanbul. Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turk's.
      - mejutoco 4y ago
        Sorry to nitpick, but that is the same city with a different name. Even old New York, was once New Amsterdam… ;)
- fallingfrog 4y ago
  Why do you think that not one of the capitals of any of the 50 states is in the largest city? And why the national capital city is Washington DC rather than New York City? Same reason.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    > Why do you think that not one of the capitals of any of the 50 states is in the largest city? Phoenix, Arizona? That's the first one that came to mind, but I'm sure there's others. Besides, that's not why DC is where it is. Our early leaders, for better or worse, thought it was best for it to be an independent district. Making NYC (or any other predeveloped city) into an independent entity is much harder than just creating a new one.
    - Jtsummers 4y ago
      Utah, Georgia, Oklahoma, Colorado as well and then I got bored checking. NC has Charlotte as the biggest city, but Raleigh isn’t small.
    - fallingfrog 4y ago
      I remember learning in grade school that the founders were aware of the fact that in France, the politics of the Paris proletariat totally dominated french politics and the king was always afraid of uprisings, so they decided to put the capital in a backwater city to avoid unrest toppling the government. Now that I’m looking for it, though, I cannot easily find evidence that that is true- I wonder why I was taught that?
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        Sounds like you had a teacher with an overactive imagination. That, or mine was hiding The Truth :-) (I can think of a handful of other factors that contribute to the US's weird capital city distribution, like real estate cost and the fact that many capitals were established after the telegram, making colocation in the largest city of each state less necessary.)
  - 4y ago
- walrus01 4y ago
  For two cities that were established with a "master plan" new national capitol idea at roughly the same time and in the same era, it's interesting to see how Islamabad and Brazilia are now two radically different places. Islamabd has always been right next door to the very old city of Rawalpindi and now the two have essentially grown together into one urban conglomeration.
Georgelemental 4y ago
Brasilia is a terribly designed city, and this is a very ugly building. Classic "high modernism" (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-like-a-state/ https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-like-a-...)
- ogogmad 4y ago
  Short version (compared to the book): https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik...
- socialismisok 4y ago
  I disagree, the discs in that building looks incredible to me? I love the curved spaces, the variety in shape and light, the canted walls, the colors. It's dated now, for sure, but it has a very retro futurist vibe I dig. Eye of the beholder, I suppose.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    Looking nice and being a nice place to live are very different things.
- nwatson 4y ago
  I lived in Brasília three years in my later teens in the early '80s. It was ambitious but fell short. The superblocks were cold and impersonal. There were many strange ideas such as ... all the hotels should be stuffed into two hotel sectors close to the city center. In the almost 40 years since I left I've heard there's more of a local culture and perhaps things have improved. Back then everyone in Brasília was still from elsewhere.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    I grew up there in the early 2000s and it was a great city. Lots of kids to play with from your own block, access to local shops within walking distance, safe enough that kids walk around and play by themselves. One of the things I loved the most was going to friends houses and learning what their block was like. There's parts that suck, over reliance on cars, no public transit, lots of things are just a little bit too far to walk to. But overall, Brasília had more easily accessible green space dedicated to people than most cities in the world imo.
diego_moita 4y ago
I worked for 3 months in a building projected by Oscar Niemeyer. It was an horrible experience. The building is on this foto [1], the Jetsons-like structure in the front didn't exist back then. It was just the long white slab on the back, without windows. Behind there is a preserved rainforest. The place is very humid and, for aesthetic reasons, the building had no windows and horrible ventilation. It was cold and very moldy and respiratory diseases were very common among the staff. As some people say in Brazil, as an architect, Niemeyer was a very good sculptor. However, some brazilian disciples of him (e.g: Ruy Ohtake) are actually careful about the comfort and well being within their projects. [1] https://curitibaspace.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Museu-Oscar-Niemeyer-MON-Curitiba-Space-2.jpg https://curitibaspace.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Muse...
- xroche 4y ago
  > As some people say in Brazil, as an architect, Niemeyer was a very good sculptor. We indeed have a lot of those fancy buildings from famous architects, mostly from the 70s. They all share a common pattern: - a repressed artist who became an architect - a beautiful piece of concrete modern art on the outside and that makes fancy design magazine photos - an oppressive building and a complete failure in term of comfort/ergonomy Another example is the "Espaces d'Abraxas". But there are even worse examples when you look at brutalist architecture.
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  Theory of mine is that there are things that go into how buildings look, materials and current tradition. But also the actual tools an architect uses. Oscar Niemeyer like others of his ilk were really really fond of drafting machines. Drafting machines encourage long straight lines and right angles. CAD is the same except now with splines.
- woliveirajr 4y ago
  Oh, "the eye" museum. Totally disconected from the surrounding and famous just because it was projected by Niemeyer. Worst cost/benefit with a questionable esthetic.
- rbanffy 4y ago
fallingfrog 4y ago
Very Star Trek, I don’t know much about architecture but I do find curves and circles much more pleasant, if less efficient, than 90 degree angles everywhere.
illuminerdy 4y ago
- socialismisok 4y ago
  I self identify as a communist, and I would say my views are fairly typical for communist folk. I don't think your comment is an accurate assessment. I know it's meant to be a joke, but ending a post with "your typical XYZ" is pretty condescending. What if someone posted about, "your typical tech bro, your typical Christian, your typical Republican, etc"? I'm disappointed to see such strong disinterest in actual substantive discussion here on HN of all places.
  - illuminerdy 4y ago
    I think you need to distinguish between "communist folk" and the people who inevitably end up being in charge in communist governments. Show me a communist country where the leaders don't profess to be "for the people" but live lives of luxury while "the people" live lives of struggle and servitude.
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      Is that a reasonable bar? How does Trump live? Biden? Truss? Trudeau? The UK is starting people for signs that say "not my king", the US incarcerates whole integer percentages of their population, and Canada continues to do terrible things to their indigenous population. Put more succinctly, I do believe that the US leadership lives like royals while the average worker is scraping by. I'm happy to chat, but the bar should be set equally.
      - illuminerdy 4y ago
        Except none of those people, to my understanding, are communists and none of the countries they lead are communist countries. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a central tenet of communism the equality of outcome for all citizens? So how does having an elite Inner Party (which there always is) that has special privilege (which they always do) translate into equality of outcomes? Last time I checked, no capitalist/free market country promised such a thing. So Trump having billions of dollars doesn't go against the very principle of the U.S. economic or social structure. To the contrary, it aligns precisely with our economic structure.
Barrin92 4y ago
I love modernist architecture. Not so much the exterior of Niemeyer's buildings but the interior of this one reminds me of a building I commuted along every day, the Czech embassy in Berlin. https://www.sosbrutalism.org/cms/16269951 https://www.sosbrutalism.org/cms/16269951
kcplate 4y ago
Why is it that seemingly every space designed by an avowed communist looks completely uncomfortable to spend literally any amount of time in it?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I get that about Brasilia, but I don't see the discomfort in this one. Those chairs look pretty comfortable to me, and I like the colors. Edit: Perhaps the more obvious answer is that it's an office/professional building, and you're not supposed to fall asleep in the chairs (although I think I could swing it).
  - kcplate 4y ago
    I don’t know, the lounge area in the basement looks horribly uncomfortable. The four chairs around the coffee table have too wide a seat for the back and appear to be uncomfortably low.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Project Cybersyn looked pretty ergonomic and Star Trek TOS chic https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/project-cybersyn/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/project-cybersyn/
  - kcplate 4y ago
    Just my opinion, but I see more form over function there. Molded plastic chairs? No thanks, used to work in an office that went that route for conference room chairs…was beyond awful, but good if you never wanted people to use your conference room.
ogogmad 4y ago
I can't tell if I'm looking at renderings from a video game.
- ogogmad 4y ago
  To elaborate, it looks like an ugly rendering from a PS2 era videogame. The discontinuous break in the ceiling here [1] is searing to look at. It looks like a graphics glitch. [1] - https://sdg-migration-id.s3.amazonaws.com/Interior-Design-Oscar-Niemeyer-idx191101_on01_3-11.19.jpg https://sdg-migration-id.s3.amazonaws.com/Interior-Design-Os...
- robin_reala 4y ago
  Have you been playing a lot of Control?
VictorPath 4y ago
Jean-Louis Gassée got his start as a bartender for PCF cadre at a casino in Deauville.
mrtree 4y ago
woliveirajr 4y ago
- britch 4y ago
  I don't mean to derail discussion of the article, but that quote is just a flatly true statement, no? It's literally the first line in the English wikipedia article >"The military dictatorship in Brazil (Portuguese: ditadura militar) was established on 1 April 1964, after a coup d'état by the Brazilian Armed Forces, with support from the United States government" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship_in_Brazil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship_in_Brazi...
- WitCanStain 4y ago
  What do you mean?
  - aha_throwaway 4y ago
    You can't criticize America.
- zorked 4y ago
  Yes, seems like the sort of place that dishes our factual statements.
2143 4y ago
Walls that slant — isn't that horrible from an engineering perspective? If it's just a normal vertical wall it's naturally "balanced", but slanting walls would have a tendency to, I don't know, fall down? How does it support the next floor on top?! Likewise with Frank Gehry's designs. Look at MIT buildings. People might probably consider it works of art, but I — a nobody — consider it cringeworthy.
- a_t48 4y ago
  It’s my understanding that the frame supports the floors, not the walls.
  - 2143 4y ago
    Oh okay. I thought load-bearing walls[1] were a thing. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load-bearing_wall https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load-bearing_wall
    - techdragon 4y ago
      They are definitely a thing, but not all walls need to be load bearing. This is the sort of thing they work out during one of the early stages when they make sure the architect has actually designed something that can be physically built, plenty of (most?) architects even do this themselves as part of initial design work and it’s not something you see as much in the modern era of with computers to help make “sanity check” calculations like this part of the design process, like a pre-commit hook linking your code they can check that they haven’t got major structural elements like load bearing columns or cantilevered spans that can’t be built with concrete and steel. It won’t necessarily ensure the design passes local building codes, but it will definitely help avoid embarrassment for an architect of having to redesign something because it literally could not be built as designed by them.
    - wikfwikf 4y ago
      Not in the school of architecture to which Niemeyer belongs. The internal concrete structure and non-load-bearing walls was key to Le Corbusier's tower blocks. You can see this by the fact that the walls often don't extend to the ground, where the building is supported on open pillars, as in the building in TFA. Modern skyscrapers are just a development of the same principle.
gquiniou 4y ago
You can visit the place next Saturday or Sunday because it's the European Heritage Days where a lot of public places are open to the public in France : https://journeesdupatrimoine.culture.gouv.fr/en/ https://journeesdupatrimoine.culture.gouv.fr/en/
- absove 4y ago
  https://espace-niemeyer.fr/evenements/journees-europeennes-du-patrimoine-2022/ https://espace-niemeyer.fr/evenements/journees-europeennes-d...
mirciulica 4y ago
I want those chairs [1]. If I can get two of them into my living room :) [1] https://sdg-migration-id.s3.amazonaws.com/Interior-Design-Oscar-Niemeyer-idx191101_on06-11.19.jpg https://sdg-migration-id.s3.amazonaws.com/Interior-Design-Os...
- hendiatris 4y ago
  Prepare to pay around $20k per (https://www.pamono.es/mod-sillon-alta-de-oscar-niemeyer-para-mobilier-international-juego-de-2 https://www.pamono.es/mod-sillon-alta-de-oscar-niemeyer-para...)
  - patrec 4y ago
    The sad thing about communism is how few can afford it.
    - rbanffy 4y ago
      We still live in a capitalist society.
rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
the villains lair
jaspax 4y ago
[flagged]
seszett 4y ago
On the quote of Georges Pompidou: "[the building] was the only good thing those Commies have ever done". That translation is a much less neutral than what he actually said. He said "c'est la seule bonne chose que les communistes aient faite", which is quite neutrally: "this is the only good thing that the Communists have done". No "Commies" (I'm not even sure that there's an equivalent in French) or "those Commies".
- nailer 4y ago
  > "this is the only good thing that the Communists have done" Is still a damnation of that death cult though. No neutrality about it.
- navaati 4y ago
  > I'm not even sure that there's an equivalent in French Les cocos ;) !
Chris2048 4y ago
It's where he keeps Nie Wieners.
bborud 4y ago
Ah yes, the building really drives home the message that no expense will be spared on the ruling class once the revolution has happened and the peasants settle in beneath their new oppressors :-)
- CrackerNews 4y ago
  The concrete and aluminum does not seem like "no expenses will be spared" to me. It looks like sculpted artistic streaks to elevate the otherwise shabbiness to a sci-fi futurism. Whether the peasants would be oppressed is another can of worms topic, but I think it would be best expressed by growth rates of the USSR and China compared to their peers in similar conditions of industrial development.
  - mantas 4y ago
    Growth rates pumped up by statisticians in nice offices :)
    - int_19h 4y ago
      If you shoot the statisticians when they produce politically incorrect numbers, you can skip nice offices, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_(1937) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_(1937)
      - mantas 4y ago
        Nice offices help to find new recruits. Even if they’re usually occupied by those shooting the former.
brodouevencode 4y ago
Our communist party headquarters

129 points by davikr 4y ago

Niemeyer is a national treasure, but I find his role in helping create a capital in the middle of nowhere in Brazil extremely reprehensible. Brasília was created to keep politicians away from the big population centers and avoid protests.

mc32 4y ago
My understanding is they wanted the interior to get developed and take power/influence away from the coast/near coast & kneecap RdJ/SP rivalry ). Also wanted to "cut from their colonial past". Protests (and protestors) are not a problem for dictators (North Korea, Russia, Iran). I don't understand the siren call of Communism on early XX - midcentury intellectuals. It's like they didn't go to personally understand the atrocities happening in these so-called worker and peasant paradises -what meatgrinders they were. How did ideology so overcome their ability to see what was happening in those places?
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    As a general rule, "the people I don't like are just sadists" is usually neither true nor a productive attitude.
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      As a general rule the people I don't like are highly specialized computer technology professionals who have the hubris to think their level of in-field expertise carries over into issues regarding how to architect society.
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    What are your thoughts on the commodity -> money -> commodity mode of exchange compared to the money -> commodity > money mode of exchange? Alternative question, when the English moved to a system of tenant farmers while the French did not, was it necessarily the case that capitalism would need to arise in England and spread across the world? There's plenty of very interesting economic and social topics that are covered by the likes of Marx, Gramsci, and Melksins Wood. I'd suggest not engaging with the discussion and calling it "perverse" is seeking a position of willful anti intellectualism. You might not agree with all the points, sure, but they are raised in good faith and backed by many many intellectual discussions over decades and decades.
  - VictorPath 4y ago
    > Chomsky passionately defending the Khmer Rouge The US began arming the Khmer Rouge in 1979 into the 1980s because the US wanted the Khmer Rouge to take over Cambodia again (well they didn't take over in 1975, the prince who the CIA ousted took over again technically).
    - cuteboy19 4y ago
      You realise that's even worse for Chomsky right? He is an apologist for a genocidal communist regime that also happens to be propped up by the imperialist pig dogs. That's so much worse
  - mc32 4y ago
    The Vietnamese, who were no angels, when it came to in-country human rights, were so appalled by what the Red Khmer were doing, they decided enough was enough and invaded their ideological kin-spirit to rid it of that vile and disgusting regime.
    - refurb 4y ago
      It's more complex. The Communist Vietnamese originally backed the Khmer Rouge. Then they had a split and the Khmer Rouge attacked Vietnam border towns and committed some pretty horribly atrocities. The Vietnam brought down the Khmer Rouge, but it all started as an attempt to protect their own population.
- idiocratic 4y ago
  While in some places Communism has definitely been responsible for atrocities, in many countries (especially Western Europe, Asia and South America) Communist parties have been on the frontline of liberation movements, indigenous rights, human rights, workers’ conditions, etc. That’s why for many Communism != atrocities.
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    100% this. Socialist and communist critiques of our current and historical modes of production identify some systemic issues. It's worth engaging with those critiques more deeply than "communism bad!"
    - mc32 4y ago
      Oh, no doubt they had lots of bright "promise" exemplified by the fists of virile men and fecund women reaching the mountain top having vanquished capitalist evil, triumphantly raising the hammer and sickle and little Ivan joins in the parade... But it was all illusion and never delivered. They always ended in oppression, regression and failed experiments (social, economic, environmental, etc.)
      - socialismisok 4y ago
        I think there's a healthy discussion to be had about, for instance Cuba. Yes, poverty is still high but sanctions are still oppressive. They have higher literacy rates than Canada or the US, they have solid medical care, and they've started from a much, much worse position. Similar story with Vietnam. There's a discussion to be had about where they started, where they are now, and what happened in the interim. To be clear, I'm not saying these countries have done no wrong. They aren't shining beacons, but it is worth examining them in a thoughtful way. It's not like the US (where I live) is a shining beacon either. Also, I'd argue there are degrees and varieties of both socialism and communism. Is Mondragon socialist? Is Sweden? Is France? What about small council communism and Anarcho communism?
        4y ago
- fallingfrog 4y ago
  Most of the members of the French Resistance during the Second World War were communists, so the communist party had a certain cache as being freedom fighters in postwar France. Not only that but communists were at the forefront of the early union movements in most countries, as well as the fights for racial justice, womens rights and so on. So communism had a very different reputation.
  - mc32 4y ago
    You make some valid observations about them using social wedges to drive participation. It was a means to an end --it happened in Africa, South America, Asia, etc. but yet, once communist those promises never came to fruition. In principle many of the constitutions of communist countries afford(ed) citizens more freedoms to the people than say the US constitution, but in practice that was blatantly not the case with a bit of happy time in some parts of eastern Europe for a few years before the Soviets went in to quash the threat and establish harder regimes.
    - fallingfrog 4y ago
      I would counter that by saying that despots have existed all through human history, and have always cloaked themselves in claims of their power coming from god, or them being actual gods, or something like that, so if the batch of despots that cropped up after ww2 used communism as their justification it’s hardly surprising- that was the set ideas floating around at the time that could be used to make them appear virtuous. And of course, by doing so they could get Soviet funding. Of course, in places like Cambodia, atrocities did take place that were really inspired by some demented but sincere interpretations of communism. I would say, 20th century communism’s great failure is that it attempts to abolish politics itself by trying to create a utopia where nobody ever disagrees with one another. This is impossible, and totalitarian by definition.
      - mc32 4y ago
        That explains the regimes coming to power via deceptive means and methods -all par for the course... but it doesn't explain the infatuation by intellectuals from the early to late mid XX century. It's like someone seeing Mussolini and being captivated by the act and not digging further.
- rdtsc 4y ago
  > I don't understand the siren call of Communism on early XX - midcentury intellectuals I think it boils down to “enemy of my enemy”. Their main enemy was the establishment, which means capitalism, corporatism and so on. Communism was its declared enemy number one, so to be edgy and radical they picked that. If the West was trampling over some poor country, whatever that country’s political or cultural preferences, they automatically become appealing to anti-establishment intellectuals in the West as a way to show sympathy.
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  I think to do that you have to actually look at how corrupt and awful eastern European and colonial powers were. Combine that with a belief that this time it's different Re the strong history of the new boss being far worse than the previous one. And human nature to believe that your tribe is beyond reproach or at least justified (rolls eyes).
- kubb 4y ago
  I guess they engaged with a critique of capitalism that wasn't (and isn't) available to someone with a more basic education, and communism was seen as an alternative. A communist back then would point to the capitalist countries committing horrible atrocities of colonialism and slavery. Another factor would be a rhetoric of liberation. Either you fight against the bourgeoisie, or they will keep sucking your blood as long as you live. That's why conflicts were seen as inevitable. I doubt anyone condoned violent mass murder. Khmer Rouge and the Cultural Revolution happened in the second half of the XX century.
  - rbanffy 4y ago
    > A communist back then would point to the capitalist countries committing horrible atrocities Unlike now, where whenever we point to capitalism, we point to shining beacons of freedom and humanity. ;-) > I doubt anyone condoned violent mass murder The fact the Soviet Union and China didn't succeed at implementing an ideal utopian society doesn't prevent others from trying something slightly different (let's say, socdem) in hopes it'll suck less than unregulated capitalism
- neel_k 4y ago
  This is really easy to explain: all of the colonial empires were horrifying engines of atrocity, oppression and death. Since imperial apologists hated socialism, that made it a very attractive ideology -- if the worst people alive hate something, it's got to have something to recommend it, right? The Madras famine of 1877 (in which over 8 million people died) is characteristic. The British Empire didn't just fail to help, it actually made it illegal to offer food relief, on the grounds that it would distort the labour market and violate free-market principles. If you witnessed that, wouldn't you think the market and Moloch were one and the same? It's worth noting that "concentration camp" is not the English translation of "Konzentrationslager": it's actually the other way around. The German word is the translation of an English phrase used to describe the British Empire's interment camps in the Boer War. IMO, it's impossible to look at, say, a picture of Lizzie van Zyl and not see a premonition of the Holocaust. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_van_Zyl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_van_Zyl
  - wikfwikf 4y ago
    You are technically correct about the origin of 'concentration camp'. But this point in relation to the Holocaust is so pedantic as to border on denial. Most people who died in the Holocaust did not die in 'concentration camps'. About a quarter of them were killed in mass shootings and buried in mass graves. Another quarter were sent to something better described as 'extermination facilities'. There was no camp and no concentration - all victims were gassed to death on arrival. The most famous concentration camp - Auschwitz - also had a facility like this where around a million people died immediately on arrival. While Auschwitz did have the standard features of concentration camps - imprisonment, starvation, forced labor, and brutal punishment and torture, most people who died in Auschwitz never experienced any of this - they were simply executed on arrival. So, while the 'concentration camps' were of course unimaginably terrible - and not to excuse other crimes against humanity such as the Boer camps, the gulags, etc - to compare other atrocities to the Nazi Holocaust simply because of the presence of concentration camps erases and minimizes the true extent of Nazi crimes against Jews and Roma.
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  Perhaps you are making the fallacy of comparing early 20th century communist regimes with today's capitalist society. If you compared them with early 20th century capitalism or colonialism they start to look much more benign.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    They really don't, though. You can even look at quality of life in Russia itself - conveniently one of the more oppressive capitalist societies at the time - before and after the Bolshevik revolution. (There's this myth that's popular with some lefties that Soviets weren't really that oppressive until Stalin. It's not true - mass executions were already in full swing in 1918.)
    - wikfwikf 4y ago
      This is simply untrue. Mass executions of (certain subsets of) the middle and upper classes, alongside electrification and land reform for the rural poor and trade unions and healthcare for the urban poor, meant an extremely significant improvement in the average quality of life for the Russian population.
      - int_19h 4y ago
        Have you ever heard the words "prodrazvyorstka" or "kombed"? Bolsheviks literally robbed the peasants - who, to remind, was the actual majority of the population by a factor of 4x of so - blind at gunpoint to feed their forced industrialization in the cities, triggering more than one famine in the process (Holodomor being the most famous). If you look at early Soviet history, it's littered with peasant uprisings for this exact reason. In my hometown in Russia, such an uprising was big enough that Soviets decided to use chemical weapons against the rebels; ironically, I used to live on a street that was named after the guy who signed that order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion
  - rob74 4y ago
    ...or comparing communist regimes with the (capitalist-supported) German Nazi regime.
ajot 4y ago
Hindsight is 20/20. Now we do have empirical knowledge (from Brazil, but also Côte d'Ivoire, Nigeria and Myanmar) that moving the capital away doesn't solve any problem. Not protests, and definitely not a population concentration and disparity. We gotta find better solutions to those problems.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  Yep. Egypt is trying to do it now. Vox had a great video on that recently.
  - formerly_proven 4y ago
    MBS of KSA has a similar fever dream.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  The move from Paris to Versailles by Louis 14 was mostly that, so we’ve had that hindsight for a few centuries now.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  See also: Washington, DC
- mejutoco 4y ago
  Other examples of capitals moving: Bonn to Berlin (Germany), Bursa to Ankara (Turkey)
  - buildsjets 4y ago
    Constantinople to Istanbul. Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turk's.
    - mejutoco 4y ago
      Sorry to nitpick, but that is the same city with a different name. Even old New York, was once New Amsterdam… ;)
fallingfrog 4y ago
Why do you think that not one of the capitals of any of the 50 states is in the largest city? And why the national capital city is Washington DC rather than New York City? Same reason.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  > Why do you think that not one of the capitals of any of the 50 states is in the largest city? Phoenix, Arizona? That's the first one that came to mind, but I'm sure there's others. Besides, that's not why DC is where it is. Our early leaders, for better or worse, thought it was best for it to be an independent district. Making NYC (or any other predeveloped city) into an independent entity is much harder than just creating a new one.
  - Jtsummers 4y ago
    Utah, Georgia, Oklahoma, Colorado as well and then I got bored checking. NC has Charlotte as the biggest city, but Raleigh isn’t small.
  - fallingfrog 4y ago
    I remember learning in grade school that the founders were aware of the fact that in France, the politics of the Paris proletariat totally dominated french politics and the king was always afraid of uprisings, so they decided to put the capital in a backwater city to avoid unrest toppling the government. Now that I’m looking for it, though, I cannot easily find evidence that that is true- I wonder why I was taught that?
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Sounds like you had a teacher with an overactive imagination. That, or mine was hiding The Truth :-) (I can think of a handful of other factors that contribute to the US's weird capital city distribution, like real estate cost and the fact that many capitals were established after the telegram, making colocation in the largest city of each state less necessary.)
- 4y ago
walrus01 4y ago
For two cities that were established with a "master plan" new national capitol idea at roughly the same time and in the same era, it's interesting to see how Islamabad and Brazilia are now two radically different places. Islamabd has always been right next door to the very old city of Rawalpindi and now the two have essentially grown together into one urban conglomeration.

Georgelemental 4y ago

Brasilia is a terribly designed city, and this is a very ugly building. Classic "high modernism" (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-like-a-state/ https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-like-a-...)

ogogmad 4y ago
Short version (compared to the book): https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik...
socialismisok 4y ago
I disagree, the discs in that building looks incredible to me? I love the curved spaces, the variety in shape and light, the canted walls, the colors. It's dated now, for sure, but it has a very retro futurist vibe I dig. Eye of the beholder, I suppose.
- rglullis 4y ago
  Looking nice and being a nice place to live are very different things.
nwatson 4y ago
I lived in Brasília three years in my later teens in the early '80s. It was ambitious but fell short. The superblocks were cold and impersonal. There were many strange ideas such as ... all the hotels should be stuffed into two hotel sectors close to the city center. In the almost 40 years since I left I've heard there's more of a local culture and perhaps things have improved. Back then everyone in Brasília was still from elsewhere.
- amrocha 4y ago
  I grew up there in the early 2000s and it was a great city. Lots of kids to play with from your own block, access to local shops within walking distance, safe enough that kids walk around and play by themselves. One of the things I loved the most was going to friends houses and learning what their block was like. There's parts that suck, over reliance on cars, no public transit, lots of things are just a little bit too far to walk to. But overall, Brasília had more easily accessible green space dedicated to people than most cities in the world imo.

diego_moita 4y ago

I worked for 3 months in a building projected by Oscar Niemeyer. It was an horrible experience. The building is on this foto [1], the Jetsons-like structure in the front didn't exist back then. It was just the long white slab on the back, without windows. Behind there is a preserved rainforest. The place is very humid and, for aesthetic reasons, the building had no windows and horrible ventilation. It was cold and very moldy and respiratory diseases were very common among the staff. As some people say in Brazil, as an architect, Niemeyer was a very good sculptor. However, some brazilian disciples of him (e.g: Ruy Ohtake) are actually careful about the comfort and well being within their projects. [1] https://curitibaspace.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Museu-Oscar-Niemeyer-MON-Curitiba-Space-2.jpg https://curitibaspace.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Muse...

xroche 4y ago
> As some people say in Brazil, as an architect, Niemeyer was a very good sculptor. We indeed have a lot of those fancy buildings from famous architects, mostly from the 70s. They all share a common pattern: - a repressed artist who became an architect - a beautiful piece of concrete modern art on the outside and that makes fancy design magazine photos - an oppressive building and a complete failure in term of comfort/ergonomy Another example is the "Espaces d'Abraxas". But there are even worse examples when you look at brutalist architecture.
Gibbon1 4y ago
Theory of mine is that there are things that go into how buildings look, materials and current tradition. But also the actual tools an architect uses. Oscar Niemeyer like others of his ilk were really really fond of drafting machines. Drafting machines encourage long straight lines and right angles. CAD is the same except now with splines.
woliveirajr 4y ago
Oh, "the eye" museum. Totally disconected from the surrounding and famous just because it was projected by Niemeyer. Worst cost/benefit with a questionable esthetic.
rbanffy 4y ago

fallingfrog 4y ago

Very Star Trek, I don’t know much about architecture but I do find curves and circles much more pleasant, if less efficient, than 90 degree angles everywhere.

illuminerdy 4y ago

socialismisok 4y ago
I self identify as a communist, and I would say my views are fairly typical for communist folk. I don't think your comment is an accurate assessment. I know it's meant to be a joke, but ending a post with "your typical XYZ" is pretty condescending. What if someone posted about, "your typical tech bro, your typical Christian, your typical Republican, etc"? I'm disappointed to see such strong disinterest in actual substantive discussion here on HN of all places.
- illuminerdy 4y ago
  I think you need to distinguish between "communist folk" and the people who inevitably end up being in charge in communist governments. Show me a communist country where the leaders don't profess to be "for the people" but live lives of luxury while "the people" live lives of struggle and servitude.
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    Is that a reasonable bar? How does Trump live? Biden? Truss? Trudeau? The UK is starting people for signs that say "not my king", the US incarcerates whole integer percentages of their population, and Canada continues to do terrible things to their indigenous population. Put more succinctly, I do believe that the US leadership lives like royals while the average worker is scraping by. I'm happy to chat, but the bar should be set equally.
    - illuminerdy 4y ago
      Except none of those people, to my understanding, are communists and none of the countries they lead are communist countries. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a central tenet of communism the equality of outcome for all citizens? So how does having an elite Inner Party (which there always is) that has special privilege (which they always do) translate into equality of outcomes? Last time I checked, no capitalist/free market country promised such a thing. So Trump having billions of dollars doesn't go against the very principle of the U.S. economic or social structure. To the contrary, it aligns precisely with our economic structure.

Barrin92 4y ago

I love modernist architecture. Not so much the exterior of Niemeyer's buildings but the interior of this one reminds me of a building I commuted along every day, the Czech embassy in Berlin. https://www.sosbrutalism.org/cms/16269951 https://www.sosbrutalism.org/cms/16269951

kcplate 4y ago

Why is it that seemingly every space designed by an avowed communist looks completely uncomfortable to spend literally any amount of time in it?

woodruffw 4y ago
I get that about Brasilia, but I don't see the discomfort in this one. Those chairs look pretty comfortable to me, and I like the colors. Edit: Perhaps the more obvious answer is that it's an office/professional building, and you're not supposed to fall asleep in the chairs (although I think I could swing it).
- kcplate 4y ago
  I don’t know, the lounge area in the basement looks horribly uncomfortable. The four chairs around the coffee table have too wide a seat for the back and appear to be uncomfortably low.
Apocryphon 4y ago
Project Cybersyn looked pretty ergonomic and Star Trek TOS chic https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/project-cybersyn/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/project-cybersyn/
- kcplate 4y ago
  Just my opinion, but I see more form over function there. Molded plastic chairs? No thanks, used to work in an office that went that route for conference room chairs…was beyond awful, but good if you never wanted people to use your conference room.

ogogmad 4y ago

I can't tell if I'm looking at renderings from a video game.

ogogmad 4y ago
To elaborate, it looks like an ugly rendering from a PS2 era videogame. The discontinuous break in the ceiling here [1] is searing to look at. It looks like a graphics glitch. [1] - https://sdg-migration-id.s3.amazonaws.com/Interior-Design-Oscar-Niemeyer-idx191101_on01_3-11.19.jpg https://sdg-migration-id.s3.amazonaws.com/Interior-Design-Os...
robin_reala 4y ago
Have you been playing a lot of Control?

VictorPath 4y ago

Jean-Louis Gassée got his start as a bartender for PCF cadre at a casino in Deauville.

mrtree 4y ago

woliveirajr 4y ago

britch 4y ago
I don't mean to derail discussion of the article, but that quote is just a flatly true statement, no? It's literally the first line in the English wikipedia article >"The military dictatorship in Brazil (Portuguese: ditadura militar) was established on 1 April 1964, after a coup d'état by the Brazilian Armed Forces, with support from the United States government" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship_in_Brazil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship_in_Brazi...
WitCanStain 4y ago
What do you mean?
- aha_throwaway 4y ago
  You can't criticize America.
zorked 4y ago
Yes, seems like the sort of place that dishes our factual statements.

2143 4y ago

Walls that slant — isn't that horrible from an engineering perspective? If it's just a normal vertical wall it's naturally "balanced", but slanting walls would have a tendency to, I don't know, fall down? How does it support the next floor on top?! Likewise with Frank Gehry's designs. Look at MIT buildings. People might probably consider it works of art, but I — a nobody — consider it cringeworthy.

a_t48 4y ago
It’s my understanding that the frame supports the floors, not the walls.
- 2143 4y ago
  Oh okay. I thought load-bearing walls[1] were a thing. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load-bearing_wall https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load-bearing_wall
  - techdragon 4y ago
    They are definitely a thing, but not all walls need to be load bearing. This is the sort of thing they work out during one of the early stages when they make sure the architect has actually designed something that can be physically built, plenty of (most?) architects even do this themselves as part of initial design work and it’s not something you see as much in the modern era of with computers to help make “sanity check” calculations like this part of the design process, like a pre-commit hook linking your code they can check that they haven’t got major structural elements like load bearing columns or cantilevered spans that can’t be built with concrete and steel. It won’t necessarily ensure the design passes local building codes, but it will definitely help avoid embarrassment for an architect of having to redesign something because it literally could not be built as designed by them.
  - wikfwikf 4y ago
    Not in the school of architecture to which Niemeyer belongs. The internal concrete structure and non-load-bearing walls was key to Le Corbusier's tower blocks. You can see this by the fact that the walls often don't extend to the ground, where the building is supported on open pillars, as in the building in TFA. Modern skyscrapers are just a development of the same principle.

gquiniou 4y ago

You can visit the place next Saturday or Sunday because it's the European Heritage Days where a lot of public places are open to the public in France : https://journeesdupatrimoine.culture.gouv.fr/en/ https://journeesdupatrimoine.culture.gouv.fr/en/

absove 4y ago
https://espace-niemeyer.fr/evenements/journees-europeennes-du-patrimoine-2022/ https://espace-niemeyer.fr/evenements/journees-europeennes-d...

mirciulica 4y ago

I want those chairs [1]. If I can get two of them into my living room :) [1] https://sdg-migration-id.s3.amazonaws.com/Interior-Design-Oscar-Niemeyer-idx191101_on06-11.19.jpg https://sdg-migration-id.s3.amazonaws.com/Interior-Design-Os...

hendiatris 4y ago
Prepare to pay around $20k per (https://www.pamono.es/mod-sillon-alta-de-oscar-niemeyer-para-mobilier-international-juego-de-2 https://www.pamono.es/mod-sillon-alta-de-oscar-niemeyer-para...)
- patrec 4y ago
  The sad thing about communism is how few can afford it.
  - rbanffy 4y ago
    We still live in a capitalist society.

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago

the villains lair

jaspax 4y ago

[flagged]

seszett 4y ago

On the quote of Georges Pompidou: "[the building] was the only good thing those Commies have ever done". That translation is a much less neutral than what he actually said. He said "c'est la seule bonne chose que les communistes aient faite", which is quite neutrally: "this is the only good thing that the Communists have done". No "Commies" (I'm not even sure that there's an equivalent in French) or "those Commies".

nailer 4y ago
> "this is the only good thing that the Communists have done" Is still a damnation of that death cult though. No neutrality about it.
navaati 4y ago
> I'm not even sure that there's an equivalent in French Les cocos ;) !

Chris2048 4y ago

It's where he keeps Nie Wieners.

bborud 4y ago

Ah yes, the building really drives home the message that no expense will be spared on the ruling class once the revolution has happened and the peasants settle in beneath their new oppressors :-)

CrackerNews 4y ago
The concrete and aluminum does not seem like "no expenses will be spared" to me. It looks like sculpted artistic streaks to elevate the otherwise shabbiness to a sci-fi futurism. Whether the peasants would be oppressed is another can of worms topic, but I think it would be best expressed by growth rates of the USSR and China compared to their peers in similar conditions of industrial development.
- mantas 4y ago
  Growth rates pumped up by statisticians in nice offices :)
  - int_19h 4y ago
    If you shoot the statisticians when they produce politically incorrect numbers, you can skip nice offices, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_(1937) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_(1937)
    - mantas 4y ago
      Nice offices help to find new recruits. Even if they’re usually occupied by those shooting the former.

brodouevencode 4y ago

Our communist party headquarters