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Also why parents buying their teenaged children large vehicles is a tragedy of the commons type situation. They're more likely to get in accidents because they'

Also why parents buying their teenaged children large vehicles is a tragedy of the commons type situation. They're more likely to get in accidents because they're young and and inexperienced, but hey a big car will save them.. Edit: Wow a whole reply chain spawned from this comment got nuked! Stay safe out there Americans, you've got some wild divisions amongst yourselves and its only getting worse. For the record, I love trains, subways, buses and biking but I also own a crossover sized vehicle and recognize that everyone has their own personal preferences and requirements and that no one transit solution will meet everyone's needs, I hope you all can see that too without violence.

galangalalgol 4y ago
I wonder what the right "if everybody drove this.." is? It is probably not a lotus 7 clone. What is the smallest vehicle with superb crash test ratings?
- markovbot 4y ago
  it's probably a train
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Trains are the last word when pedestrians gang together and say “hit this”.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  It resembles something like a public bus or subway. More realistically, it's smaller cars on slower city streets.
  - evandwight 4y ago
    Not even pedestrians die at 30kmph. Edit: you are right it's about 3% die at 30kpmh, vs ~35% at 50kpmh. My bad. Still lower speeds dramatically improve the safety of cars. https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2011PedestrianRiskVsSpeed.pdf https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2011PedestrianR...
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      "Die" is a bad target. I don't want to be a quadriplegic if I don't have to be, and a car going 30 MPH (realistically 40, if the limit is 30) on a residential street is more than capable of doing that to me.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      They absolutely can. People can and do die from falling over and hitting their head. A 30km/h impact is not trivial, it can be expected to break bones and cause internal bleeding that can be deadly. An impact to the spine or head can be very easily be life changing. Also, residential roads in the US are usually 40km/h I personally know someone who was hit at about 10-15hm/h and they were hospitalized and broke their spine.
      - robotastronaut 4y ago
        My college girlfriend was hit by a car right next to me going those speeds during a turn. It seems slow, but meat on steel is pretty brutal at any travel speed. It was a four or five month recovery. Remember that the velocity of the vehicle is only a part of the picture — mass is the damage dealer here.
        picture 4y ago
        Mass is what contributes to inertia which allows the speed to be carried for longer... The acceleration, which is the difference in speeds, is the real damage dealer.
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      People regularly die by hitting their head on a hard surface when falling from a standstill.
    - sdenton4 4y ago
      kpmh ?= kilometers per millihour?
      - deleted 4y ago
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    Probably, high-speed trains that carry you from one slow car into another.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    A bus is an even bigger and heavier vehicle that will obliterate pedestrians, smaller vehicles, and goats. The distinction is professional drivers and safety standards.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Right: buses, despite their size, kill far fewer pedestrians and passengers. Size is a factor for personal automobiles because individuals lack the training (and restraint) that's key to bus driving. It's hard to see a world in which the US accepts that and increases the restrictions on obtaining a license, however.
      - josephcsible 4y ago
        > buses, despite their size, kill far fewer pedestrians and passengers. Is that still true after you adjust for the number of buses on the road vs. the number of cars? If not, then this is like saying driving drunk is less dangerous than driving sober since only 30% of car crash fatalities involve drunk drivers.
        asdff 4y ago
        Yes because of the driver itself is behaviorally different between the bus and the car. The bus drivers are profesionals who drive no higher than the speed limit, they heed all traffic laws, they generally keep to the right or otherwise drive predictably, and some times they even have dedicated bus lanes. Your average car driver is not all of those things at once, if they were there would be a lot fewer people going 5 or 15 over the speed limit and driving drunk.
        josephcsible 4y ago
        Those are a lot of reasons to think it's plausible that it might still be true after the adjustment. Is there actual data that shows it is true, though? Also, I've seen buses break traffic laws before, so don't pretend they never do.
- thrown_22 4y ago
  Something similar to a Tuk Tuk but with internal and external air bags for crashes.
- VectorLock 4y ago
  They spent a lot of time marketing how safe the SMART car was for a small vehicle. I believe they even showed putting a semi tractor on top of the SMART car to show how rigid its safety shell was.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    Which is misleading. Which would you rather do: gently set a 50lb rock on your toes, or drop a 5lb rock on your toes from 4 feet in the air (equivalent to an 11mph collision)?
- nico 4y ago
  A bike. If everyone just rode a bike, not only accidents would be less lethal, there would be a lot less congestion and pollution. Also we might get fitter too.
  - vkou 4y ago
    And barring that, an electric scooter.
    - jonhohle 4y ago
      And maybe an electric motorcycle or trike for when you have to carry more stuff. And an electric car for big families, and an electric van for vacations…
      - asdff 4y ago
        The right answer is the tool for the job. Chances are you don't need a huge pickup truck when you buy $200 of groceries. I can do it in a bike with some panniers so that means everyone can do it with an ebike. Need more than $200? Just take multiple trips a week and cancel your gym membership. Need to haul a few hundred pounds of manure? By all means take the truck. It's just when you look around at the modern world today, a lot of people are sitting in traffic by themselves in a vehicle on their way to work less than 10 miles away, or buying a few things from the store less than 2 miles away as soon as the need arises. Its a lot of wasted vehicular capacity. If you were a business buying a machine that you only used a fraction of its capabilities, you'd consider getting away with a leaner machine for most use cases. For a lot of people I talk to about getting around when it comes up, the major stopping point with biking is just the lack of infrastructure and feeling afraid of cars. Most people aren't comfortable taking the lane while biking so it becomes a dangerous experience when they don't. As the saying goes, though, if you build it, they will come. Any city I've been in that has built out a gridlike network of bike lanes seems to have a lot of people riding around. Once you build them that network you enable a lot of trips for those people uncomfortable with the existing road network.
        4y ago
Gigachad 4y ago
- treeman79 4y ago
  Not everyone lives in insane places where people feel the need to car shame.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    SUV shaming is a lot like drink driver shaming. A completely rational action for healthy society.
    - UpstandingUser 4y ago
      > SUV shaming is a lot like drink driver shaming. Are you drink?
      - jrockway 4y ago
        "Drink driving" is the UK term for what Americans call "drunk driving."
      - CDRdude 4y ago
        "Drink driver" and "drink driving" seem to be the British phrases.
      - Nicksil 4y ago
        >Are you drink? Are you American?
  - foxes 4y ago
    Not everyone lives in insane car filled wastelands. Aerial pictures of lots of American cities are truly abhorrent, vast concrete and asphalt wastelands purely for car parking. The American system and people definitely need car shaming. I don't want the same thing exported to my city.
gitfan86 4y ago
Then your child gets to live the rest of their life knowing they killed someone.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  - smt88 4y ago
    Please elaborate and provide links
    - thedrexster 4y ago
      He's talking about Kyle Rittenhouse. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/19/the-lionization-of-kyle-rittenhouse-by-the-right-523054 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/19/the-lionization-of-... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/kyle-rittenhouse-turning-point-usa-standing-ovation https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/kyle-rittenh...
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      Here's one example https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/kyle-rittenhouse-turning-point-usa-standing-ovation https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/kyle-rittenh... Now I don't think he was guilty, but the fact the media and population put him on a stage with confetti and a cheering crowd shows the state of society when the guys only public action was shooting some people in self defense. A healthy society admits that sometimes people do die in ways that are unpreventable or not at fault without celebrating when it happens or what we see where people are itching to get in these situations so they can kill legally and be a hero.
      - smt88 4y ago
        "The media and population" didn't put him on a stage or celebrate him. A small, extreme subset of the Republican Party did. Only 32% of Americans thought he should be found not guilty[1], and only a fraction of that group would want to celebrate him. 1. https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/11/18/kyle-rittenhouse-perception-guilt-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...
starkd 4y ago
Unless the people in the other car are in a big car as well.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Where does that leave pedestrians and cyclists?
  - jrockway 4y ago
    As a fine paste, and a footnote in the newspaper "he should have been wearing a helmet" or "he was found with a phone". You want victim blaming in the US? Be a pedestrian or cyclist.
    - WrtCdEvrydy 4y ago
      This can be fixed easily... divide the safety rating by the number of (thousand) pounds a vehicle has. No more juicing your safety rating by adding more mass.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        I mean, we could just do what Europe does and also include a pedestrian safety test in the safety rating. The issue is that the US still hasn’t done it.
        sidewndr46 4y ago
        The US is of the opinion that the safest place for pedestrians is in cars.
        hedora 4y ago
        Well, Obama mandated pedestrian safety be included, then Trump blocked the change. Finally (hopefully) congress forced it through as part of the infrastructure spending bill: https://www.fatherly.com/news/vehicle-safety-ratings-will-soon-focus-on-pedestrian-safety-too https://www.fatherly.com/news/vehicle-safety-ratings-will-so...
m463 4y ago
On the other hand, most obstacles struck in 1-car accidents are heavier than even these cars.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
Yeah I actually bought my nephew a fairly well kept up 20 year old crown victoria for his birthday because his single mom couldn't afford a car. So I'm guessing you wouldn't like my purchase, but I was thinking selfishly I suppose about his personal well being.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I don't think that's an especially heavy car. I don't think it's a bad choice, but I suspect a modern unibody sedan will behave a bit better in a crash. And it seems like side protection came a long way in that time too - my 2016 sedan's doors felt like like opening a bank vault after I was used to the thin doors of my 2001 car.
- nradov 4y ago
  Don't be too confident in your nephew's well being. The Ford Crown Victoria (and similar Panther platform vehicles) has terrible ratings for side impact crashes. https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/ford/crown-victoria-4-door-sedan/2003 https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/ford/crown-victoria-4-d...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jupp0r 4y ago
Or get rid of human drivers. All data points to the fact that we are terrible at driving.

galangalalgol 4y ago

I wonder what the right "if everybody drove this.." is? It is probably not a lotus 7 clone. What is the smallest vehicle with superb crash test ratings?

markovbot 4y ago
it's probably a train
- bombcar 4y ago
  Trains are the last word when pedestrians gang together and say “hit this”.
woodruffw 4y ago
It resembles something like a public bus or subway. More realistically, it's smaller cars on slower city streets.
- evandwight 4y ago
  Not even pedestrians die at 30kmph. Edit: you are right it's about 3% die at 30kpmh, vs ~35% at 50kpmh. My bad. Still lower speeds dramatically improve the safety of cars. https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2011PedestrianRiskVsSpeed.pdf https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2011PedestrianR...
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    "Die" is a bad target. I don't want to be a quadriplegic if I don't have to be, and a car going 30 MPH (realistically 40, if the limit is 30) on a residential street is more than capable of doing that to me.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    They absolutely can. People can and do die from falling over and hitting their head. A 30km/h impact is not trivial, it can be expected to break bones and cause internal bleeding that can be deadly. An impact to the spine or head can be very easily be life changing. Also, residential roads in the US are usually 40km/h I personally know someone who was hit at about 10-15hm/h and they were hospitalized and broke their spine.
    - robotastronaut 4y ago
      My college girlfriend was hit by a car right next to me going those speeds during a turn. It seems slow, but meat on steel is pretty brutal at any travel speed. It was a four or five month recovery. Remember that the velocity of the vehicle is only a part of the picture — mass is the damage dealer here.
      - picture 4y ago
        Mass is what contributes to inertia which allows the speed to be carried for longer... The acceleration, which is the difference in speeds, is the real damage dealer.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    People regularly die by hitting their head on a hard surface when falling from a standstill.
  - sdenton4 4y ago
    kpmh ?= kilometers per millihour?
    - deleted 4y ago
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Probably, high-speed trains that carry you from one slow car into another.
- bombcar 4y ago
  A bus is an even bigger and heavier vehicle that will obliterate pedestrians, smaller vehicles, and goats. The distinction is professional drivers and safety standards.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Right: buses, despite their size, kill far fewer pedestrians and passengers. Size is a factor for personal automobiles because individuals lack the training (and restraint) that's key to bus driving. It's hard to see a world in which the US accepts that and increases the restrictions on obtaining a license, however.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      > buses, despite their size, kill far fewer pedestrians and passengers. Is that still true after you adjust for the number of buses on the road vs. the number of cars? If not, then this is like saying driving drunk is less dangerous than driving sober since only 30% of car crash fatalities involve drunk drivers.
      - asdff 4y ago
        Yes because of the driver itself is behaviorally different between the bus and the car. The bus drivers are profesionals who drive no higher than the speed limit, they heed all traffic laws, they generally keep to the right or otherwise drive predictably, and some times they even have dedicated bus lanes. Your average car driver is not all of those things at once, if they were there would be a lot fewer people going 5 or 15 over the speed limit and driving drunk.
        josephcsible 4y ago
        Those are a lot of reasons to think it's plausible that it might still be true after the adjustment. Is there actual data that shows it is true, though? Also, I've seen buses break traffic laws before, so don't pretend they never do.
thrown_22 4y ago
Something similar to a Tuk Tuk but with internal and external air bags for crashes.
VectorLock 4y ago
They spent a lot of time marketing how safe the SMART car was for a small vehicle. I believe they even showed putting a semi tractor on top of the SMART car to show how rigid its safety shell was.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Which is misleading. Which would you rather do: gently set a 50lb rock on your toes, or drop a 5lb rock on your toes from 4 feet in the air (equivalent to an 11mph collision)?
nico 4y ago
A bike. If everyone just rode a bike, not only accidents would be less lethal, there would be a lot less congestion and pollution. Also we might get fitter too.
- vkou 4y ago
  And barring that, an electric scooter.
  - jonhohle 4y ago
    And maybe an electric motorcycle or trike for when you have to carry more stuff. And an electric car for big families, and an electric van for vacations…
    - asdff 4y ago
      The right answer is the tool for the job. Chances are you don't need a huge pickup truck when you buy $200 of groceries. I can do it in a bike with some panniers so that means everyone can do it with an ebike. Need more than $200? Just take multiple trips a week and cancel your gym membership. Need to haul a few hundred pounds of manure? By all means take the truck. It's just when you look around at the modern world today, a lot of people are sitting in traffic by themselves in a vehicle on their way to work less than 10 miles away, or buying a few things from the store less than 2 miles away as soon as the need arises. Its a lot of wasted vehicular capacity. If you were a business buying a machine that you only used a fraction of its capabilities, you'd consider getting away with a leaner machine for most use cases. For a lot of people I talk to about getting around when it comes up, the major stopping point with biking is just the lack of infrastructure and feeling afraid of cars. Most people aren't comfortable taking the lane while biking so it becomes a dangerous experience when they don't. As the saying goes, though, if you build it, they will come. Any city I've been in that has built out a gridlike network of bike lanes seems to have a lot of people riding around. Once you build them that network you enable a lot of trips for those people uncomfortable with the existing road network.
      - 4y ago

Gigachad 4y ago

treeman79 4y ago
Not everyone lives in insane places where people feel the need to car shame.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  SUV shaming is a lot like drink driver shaming. A completely rational action for healthy society.
  - UpstandingUser 4y ago
    > SUV shaming is a lot like drink driver shaming. Are you drink?
    - jrockway 4y ago
      "Drink driving" is the UK term for what Americans call "drunk driving."
    - CDRdude 4y ago
      "Drink driver" and "drink driving" seem to be the British phrases.
    - Nicksil 4y ago
      >Are you drink? Are you American?
- foxes 4y ago
  Not everyone lives in insane car filled wastelands. Aerial pictures of lots of American cities are truly abhorrent, vast concrete and asphalt wastelands purely for car parking. The American system and people definitely need car shaming. I don't want the same thing exported to my city.

gitfan86 4y ago

Then your child gets to live the rest of their life knowing they killed someone.

Gigachad 4y ago
- smt88 4y ago
  Please elaborate and provide links
  - thedrexster 4y ago
    He's talking about Kyle Rittenhouse. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/19/the-lionization-of-kyle-rittenhouse-by-the-right-523054 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/19/the-lionization-of-... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/kyle-rittenhouse-turning-point-usa-standing-ovation https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/kyle-rittenh...
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    Here's one example https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/kyle-rittenhouse-turning-point-usa-standing-ovation https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/kyle-rittenh... Now I don't think he was guilty, but the fact the media and population put him on a stage with confetti and a cheering crowd shows the state of society when the guys only public action was shooting some people in self defense. A healthy society admits that sometimes people do die in ways that are unpreventable or not at fault without celebrating when it happens or what we see where people are itching to get in these situations so they can kill legally and be a hero.
    - smt88 4y ago
      "The media and population" didn't put him on a stage or celebrate him. A small, extreme subset of the Republican Party did. Only 32% of Americans thought he should be found not guilty[1], and only a fraction of that group would want to celebrate him. 1. https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/11/18/kyle-rittenhouse-perception-guilt-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...

starkd 4y ago

Unless the people in the other car are in a big car as well.

woodruffw 4y ago
Where does that leave pedestrians and cyclists?
- jrockway 4y ago
  As a fine paste, and a footnote in the newspaper "he should have been wearing a helmet" or "he was found with a phone". You want victim blaming in the US? Be a pedestrian or cyclist.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 4y ago
    This can be fixed easily... divide the safety rating by the number of (thousand) pounds a vehicle has. No more juicing your safety rating by adding more mass.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      I mean, we could just do what Europe does and also include a pedestrian safety test in the safety rating. The issue is that the US still hasn’t done it.
      - sidewndr46 4y ago
        The US is of the opinion that the safest place for pedestrians is in cars.
      - hedora 4y ago
        Well, Obama mandated pedestrian safety be included, then Trump blocked the change. Finally (hopefully) congress forced it through as part of the infrastructure spending bill: https://www.fatherly.com/news/vehicle-safety-ratings-will-soon-focus-on-pedestrian-safety-too https://www.fatherly.com/news/vehicle-safety-ratings-will-so...

m463 4y ago

On the other hand, most obstacles struck in 1-car accidents are heavier than even these cars.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

Yeah I actually bought my nephew a fairly well kept up 20 year old crown victoria for his birthday because his single mom couldn't afford a car. So I'm guessing you wouldn't like my purchase, but I was thinking selfishly I suppose about his personal well being.

hotpotamus 4y ago
I don't think that's an especially heavy car. I don't think it's a bad choice, but I suspect a modern unibody sedan will behave a bit better in a crash. And it seems like side protection came a long way in that time too - my 2016 sedan's doors felt like like opening a bank vault after I was used to the thin doors of my 2001 car.
nradov 4y ago
Don't be too confident in your nephew's well being. The Ford Crown Victoria (and similar Panther platform vehicles) has terrible ratings for side impact crashes. https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/ford/crown-victoria-4-door-sedan/2003 https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/ford/crown-victoria-4-d...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jupp0r 4y ago

Or get rid of human drivers. All data points to the fact that we are terrible at driving.