8 ms·

For those wondering at the context, this is a company that builds well-liked small aircraft with the unique feature of having a last-resort emergency parachute

For those wondering at the context, this is a company that builds well-liked small aircraft with the unique feature of having a last-resort emergency parachute for the entire plane built into the fuselage.

_s 4y ago
Some more context - this the first deployment of the BRS system in their flagship; the Vision Jet. The Vision Jet is also the only turbine (jet) engine powered aircraft with such a system. It also boasts the Garmin Safe Return system; where the autopilot lands the aircraft in case of Pilot incapacitation - doing everything from radio calls, selecting the appropriate airport and runway, flying the approach and landing to a stop.
- rkagerer 4y ago
  Are the radio calls one-way, or can it understand directions from the air traffic control tower (e.g. Don't use Runway 6, Runway 8 is clear)? How's that work, voice recognition or teletype or something?
  - tialaramex 4y ago
    One way. The purpose is so that other pilots are aware that there's a problem. In a lot of US airspace there is no air traffic control, and most strips do not have anything resembling a control tower.
  - LorenPechtel 4y ago
    If a pilot were to call mayday and say they're landing on runway 6 everyone would be trying to ensure runway 6 was clear. The only way 6 would be blocked is if there was something already on it that couldn't be moved in time. Think of a mayday call as the lights and sirens of the sky.
    - mumumu 4y ago
      I think this apply to any kind of emergency. Planes can squawk a codes to signal emergency w/o rádio and get the controller attention. Mayday call is used on life threatening situations.
      - LorenPechtel 4y ago
        Yeah--the point is that a plane under robot control like that is going to be calling mayday and everyone on the frequency is going to make way for it if possible. You make way for a plane calling mayday like you make way for any vehicle running lights and sirens--but in the sky there's a lot more ability to make room and a lot more enforcement against anyone who doesn't obey.
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    Any reasonably sophisticated jet (of which this is clearly one) will have access to more or less realtime weather data, as well as NOTAMs (notices to airmen) regarding closed runways and such. I'm not familiar with the system's details, but I would assume that it would pick the nearest towered airport with emergency services that met the requirements of the landing performance. Landing autonomously on a strip in the middle of nowhere, with nobody around, isn't likely to be particularly useful in an emergency unless the aircraft is no longer airworthy - and even then, if you can keep it in the air, going somewhere big with emergency services is a better idea. A towered airport will have air traffic control (not all small strips do), and if the jet sets the transponder code to indicate an emergency, and is making blind radio calls about intent as to what runway it's going to land on, ATC will then clear the airport for the incoming emergency, and keep everyone else out of the way - and roll the trucks to meet it once it stops. I doubt it will bother getting off the runway autonomously - just come to a safe stop, shut down, and then it's someone else's problem to taxi it off. Aviation is somewhat nice in that way. Emergency traffic has priority. If I were to be flying a Cessna 152 along Lake Michigan and had an emergency with O'Hare being the nearest airport, I've got priority, and the oceanic heavies will get out of the way until it's resolved. Now, you may have some serious questions about what the problem was, but this is the sort of stuff resolved after the fact, on the ground.
    - phire 4y ago
      > you may have some serious questions about what the problem was, but this is the sort of stuff resolved after the fact, on the ground. There will be questions, but there is a very strong doctrine of "A pilot in an emergency can do whatever the fuck they think is best", to the point where they are explicitly trained to ignore ATC orders in an emergency, if they don't agree. A pilot would have to do something extremely malicious before the FAA would even start to question the choice of emergency landing airport. They don't want pilots second guessing their decisions out of fair of reprisals.
  - dweekly 4y ago
    Pretty sure the system doesn't parse ATC audio but as other posters have noted can use machine readable METARs and other data to get a sense for weather and available runways. (Note that the system does NOT parse NOTAMs yet per https://skiesmag.com/features/virtual-co-pilot-garmin-autoland/ https://skiesmag.com/features/virtual-co-pilot-garmin-autola...) Beyond that am guessing that it declares its intentions and hopes ATC can pave a clear path. They are generally exceptionally good at doing this for aircraft in distress; just squawk 7700, state your intentions on 121.5, they will make it happen - you're allowed to do literally anything and violate every rule in the book if it's required for safety of flight. You can land on an active military base or a major commercial airport runway if you need to. Mind you, there may be some paperwork to fill out on the ground after, but while you're in the pickle everyone is there to help.
    - sbierwagen 4y ago
      Additional context: there have been major airliner crashes resulting in hundreds of deaths as a result of planes put in holding patterns by ATC that ran out of fuel while waiting to land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_052 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_052 The fact that airplanes that are low on fuel have absolute emergency priority has occasionally resulted in, uh, incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3RUWvRRGLQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3RUWvRRGLQ
- ManuelKiessling 4y ago
  > It also boasts the Garmin Safe Return system; where the autopilot lands the aircraft in case of Pilot incapacitation - doing everything from radio calls, selecting the appropriate airport and runway, flying the approach and landing to a stop. But does it run Doom?
- nopzor 4y ago
  also worth mentioning - the vision jet is afaik the only single jet passenger jet that is fully certified.
  - stevehawk 4y ago
    I think you meant to say "single pilot passenger jet" that is fully certified, and if so, that statement is not correct. The Phenom, Citation, and several others are.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      For a layman, what does certification mean? Certified for what?
      - numpad0 4y ago
        I suppose GP meant to say “single engine non-turboprop turbofan/turbojet private jet that are FAA certified to operate in the US with appropriate civilian licenses”. And while there are countless single engine jet planes and many small business jets without lavatory, there indeed aren’t many (“jet” engine && single engine && business jet) designs, let alone civilian type certified models.
      - captainoats 4y ago
        Certification is the process of getting an aircraft design/model approved by the FAA for sale/use. There are 3 phases for GA commercially available aircraft, type certification (design approved), production certification (manufacturing approved), and airworthiness certification (plane tested, and ready for sale to the public) Usually when someone says a plane has received its certification they mean it’s ‘airworthiness certification’, so the final approval by the FAA.
        hef19898 4y ago
        Each commercially ised or sold aircraft has to come from a certified Desogn Organisation, has to be built by a certified Production Organisation (in most cases the same company, aerospace legallish Airbus and Boeing have a DO and a PO which arw separate entities as far as authorities are converned), needs an Type Certificate (achieved after successful flight testing and to be redone if there are configuration and design changes) and has to be maintained by a certified maintenance organisation and operated by a certified operator (continued airworthymess is a operator thing, just don't ask me any details on that, I work on the PO and touched some maintenance stuff in my life so far). Usually, EASA and FAA cross certify, making it easier to get one if you have the other already. Fascinating stuff, aerospace certification.
- threatripper 4y ago
  > where the autopilot lands the aircraft in case of Pilot incapacitation OEFGR could have used that. Their autopilot just continued to fly straight until they ran out of fuel and spiraled down into the sea.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    It needs to be manually activated.
    - pholbrook 4y ago
      "The G3000 also monitors pilot activity/inactivity and cabin pressure and can automatically engage Autoland or Emergency Descent Mode if no activity is detected." - Arstechnica article. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/11/this-system-from-garmin-can-land-a-private-plane-when-your-pilot-cant/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/11/this-system-from-garmin...
- Animats 4y ago
  Has Safe Return yet been used in an emergency? I've seen the demo videos, but haven't seen any news reports of it being used for real. It's not wasted hardware even if not used. The aircraft already has a flight control system capable of flying from waypoint to waypoint and landing. Safe Return adds a layer of software able to compute and enter a course, while squawking Mayday and playing canned emergency messages on the guard frequency. New hardware is just a radio altimeter for use in landing, and the ability to lower the landing gear under computer control.
  - dweekly 4y ago
    Didn't this have to add a lot more automation that goes beyond what a typical Cirrus with Perspective/Perspective+ would offer? Not just the radar altimeter and automated gear extension but autothrottle, flaps, braking, an auto-flare, etc...
johntb86 4y ago
What sort of circumstances would they use this parachute? Engine failure? In a spin?
- _s 4y ago
  Nearly always in the event of an engine failure or an unrecoverable attitude; which may be a spin. Cirrus’s transition training emphasises pulling the chute - the seats and airframe are designed to absorb the vertical impact and protect the people on board. Most other aircraft you learn to pick a field to glide into, or do spin / unusual attitude training to recover from them. The chute is essentially a get out of jail free card for when you don’t have the options for any of those things.
- Gracana 4y ago
  Engine failure, running out of fuel, stalls, spins, midair collisions, disorientation, etc. Cirrus has a history of CAPS deployments, linked in the article and copied here: https://www.cirruspilots.org/Safety/CAPS-Event-History https://www.cirruspilots.org/Safety/CAPS-Event-History
  - hackitup7 4y ago
    Very impressive to see how many people were able to walk away from these incidents, I wonder what the counts of injury or worse would look like without this system? Also it seems like these small planes have a lot of incidents, I'm guessing due to relatively inexperienced pilots?
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Small plane pilots are generally “not as experienced as they could be” and so Cirrus pilots are trained “when in doubt pop it out” as you might be able to successfully crash land or make it to a landing field, but the chute doesn’t work below a certain altitude.
      - AYBABTME 4y ago
p_l 4y ago
It's not unique to Cirrus, but Cirrus is probably most well known for having made bigger and heavier planes with BRS
- lisper 4y ago
  > It's not unique to Cirrus Not any more, but Cirrus introduced this technology to general aviation.
  - tristanb 4y ago
    The BRS was produced and patented by another company, then purchased by Cirrus who were the first to include it as standard equipment. But not the first in aviation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems
  - p_l 4y ago
    Cirrus only made the first in terms of standard type certified aircraft in USA, BRS in ultralight and experimental class were common by then.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  What is BRS?
  - krisoft 4y ago
    Ballistic Recovery System. It is a parachute afixed to the airframe which can be deployed by the pilot. It is named that because the parachute is pulled out of its housing by a small solid-fueled rocket. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems
  - chinathrow 4y ago
    The manufacturer of those rescue systems. https://brsaerospace.com/ https://brsaerospace.com/
hugh-avherald 4y ago
It's no longer considered a last-resort measure. Cirrus training now says to consider it as a first resort.
- tialaramex 4y ago
  Indeed, you need to consider CAPS early because it requires altitude, in a plane with a problem you are presumably losing altitude, maybe rapidly, so it won't be long before you can't use CAPS. By then you need to have either decided to use it, or picked some other course of action so that you don't need it. Unlike the rocket ejector seat in a fighter jet, CAPS cannot save you very close to the ground. The ejector seat in a modern fighter is rated for zero/zero ie you could pull the handle from a plane that's just sat on the ground motionless, it would still eject you upward and you'd probably survive. CAPS is intended to be used at two thousand feet AGL (ie above the ground)
  - littlestymaar 4y ago
    > CAPS is intended to be used at two thousand feet AGL (ie above the ground) As another person commented[1], they claim it to work as low as 400ft (straight and level flight, 920ft during a spin). Much higher than a combat jet, but not too bad either. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32802182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32802182
  - nradov 4y ago
    Even zero/zero ejection seats can be outside the safe envelope if the aircraft is at low altitude, and is either inverted or has a negative sink rate.
- imglorp 4y ago
  As a glider pilot I find this mindset disappointing. Every aviator must have a constantly updating array of "what if" situations and planned responses: "Right now, where's my best landing spot and how would I get lined up for that?" etc. It leads to a chess-like thinking ahead mindset which brings all kinds of benefits. "Whelp I'll just pull the lever if something goes wrong" robs you of that. Automation and chutes are fine but we keep seeing incidents where lack of judgement, planning or basic stick and rudder skills were contributory.

_s 4y ago

Some more context - this the first deployment of the BRS system in their flagship; the Vision Jet. The Vision Jet is also the only turbine (jet) engine powered aircraft with such a system. It also boasts the Garmin Safe Return system; where the autopilot lands the aircraft in case of Pilot incapacitation - doing everything from radio calls, selecting the appropriate airport and runway, flying the approach and landing to a stop.

rkagerer 4y ago
Are the radio calls one-way, or can it understand directions from the air traffic control tower (e.g. Don't use Runway 6, Runway 8 is clear)? How's that work, voice recognition or teletype or something?
- tialaramex 4y ago
  One way. The purpose is so that other pilots are aware that there's a problem. In a lot of US airspace there is no air traffic control, and most strips do not have anything resembling a control tower.
- LorenPechtel 4y ago
  If a pilot were to call mayday and say they're landing on runway 6 everyone would be trying to ensure runway 6 was clear. The only way 6 would be blocked is if there was something already on it that couldn't be moved in time. Think of a mayday call as the lights and sirens of the sky.
  - mumumu 4y ago
    I think this apply to any kind of emergency. Planes can squawk a codes to signal emergency w/o rádio and get the controller attention. Mayday call is used on life threatening situations.
    - LorenPechtel 4y ago
      Yeah--the point is that a plane under robot control like that is going to be calling mayday and everyone on the frequency is going to make way for it if possible. You make way for a plane calling mayday like you make way for any vehicle running lights and sirens--but in the sky there's a lot more ability to make room and a lot more enforcement against anyone who doesn't obey.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  Any reasonably sophisticated jet (of which this is clearly one) will have access to more or less realtime weather data, as well as NOTAMs (notices to airmen) regarding closed runways and such. I'm not familiar with the system's details, but I would assume that it would pick the nearest towered airport with emergency services that met the requirements of the landing performance. Landing autonomously on a strip in the middle of nowhere, with nobody around, isn't likely to be particularly useful in an emergency unless the aircraft is no longer airworthy - and even then, if you can keep it in the air, going somewhere big with emergency services is a better idea. A towered airport will have air traffic control (not all small strips do), and if the jet sets the transponder code to indicate an emergency, and is making blind radio calls about intent as to what runway it's going to land on, ATC will then clear the airport for the incoming emergency, and keep everyone else out of the way - and roll the trucks to meet it once it stops. I doubt it will bother getting off the runway autonomously - just come to a safe stop, shut down, and then it's someone else's problem to taxi it off. Aviation is somewhat nice in that way. Emergency traffic has priority. If I were to be flying a Cessna 152 along Lake Michigan and had an emergency with O'Hare being the nearest airport, I've got priority, and the oceanic heavies will get out of the way until it's resolved. Now, you may have some serious questions about what the problem was, but this is the sort of stuff resolved after the fact, on the ground.
  - phire 4y ago
    > you may have some serious questions about what the problem was, but this is the sort of stuff resolved after the fact, on the ground. There will be questions, but there is a very strong doctrine of "A pilot in an emergency can do whatever the fuck they think is best", to the point where they are explicitly trained to ignore ATC orders in an emergency, if they don't agree. A pilot would have to do something extremely malicious before the FAA would even start to question the choice of emergency landing airport. They don't want pilots second guessing their decisions out of fair of reprisals.
- dweekly 4y ago
  Pretty sure the system doesn't parse ATC audio but as other posters have noted can use machine readable METARs and other data to get a sense for weather and available runways. (Note that the system does NOT parse NOTAMs yet per https://skiesmag.com/features/virtual-co-pilot-garmin-autoland/ https://skiesmag.com/features/virtual-co-pilot-garmin-autola...) Beyond that am guessing that it declares its intentions and hopes ATC can pave a clear path. They are generally exceptionally good at doing this for aircraft in distress; just squawk 7700, state your intentions on 121.5, they will make it happen - you're allowed to do literally anything and violate every rule in the book if it's required for safety of flight. You can land on an active military base or a major commercial airport runway if you need to. Mind you, there may be some paperwork to fill out on the ground after, but while you're in the pickle everyone is there to help.
  - sbierwagen 4y ago
    Additional context: there have been major airliner crashes resulting in hundreds of deaths as a result of planes put in holding patterns by ATC that ran out of fuel while waiting to land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_052 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_052 The fact that airplanes that are low on fuel have absolute emergency priority has occasionally resulted in, uh, incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3RUWvRRGLQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3RUWvRRGLQ
ManuelKiessling 4y ago
> It also boasts the Garmin Safe Return system; where the autopilot lands the aircraft in case of Pilot incapacitation - doing everything from radio calls, selecting the appropriate airport and runway, flying the approach and landing to a stop. But does it run Doom?
nopzor 4y ago
also worth mentioning - the vision jet is afaik the only single jet passenger jet that is fully certified.
- stevehawk 4y ago
  I think you meant to say "single pilot passenger jet" that is fully certified, and if so, that statement is not correct. The Phenom, Citation, and several others are.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    For a layman, what does certification mean? Certified for what?
    - numpad0 4y ago
      I suppose GP meant to say “single engine non-turboprop turbofan/turbojet private jet that are FAA certified to operate in the US with appropriate civilian licenses”. And while there are countless single engine jet planes and many small business jets without lavatory, there indeed aren’t many (“jet” engine && single engine && business jet) designs, let alone civilian type certified models.
    - captainoats 4y ago
      Certification is the process of getting an aircraft design/model approved by the FAA for sale/use. There are 3 phases for GA commercially available aircraft, type certification (design approved), production certification (manufacturing approved), and airworthiness certification (plane tested, and ready for sale to the public) Usually when someone says a plane has received its certification they mean it’s ‘airworthiness certification’, so the final approval by the FAA.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Each commercially ised or sold aircraft has to come from a certified Desogn Organisation, has to be built by a certified Production Organisation (in most cases the same company, aerospace legallish Airbus and Boeing have a DO and a PO which arw separate entities as far as authorities are converned), needs an Type Certificate (achieved after successful flight testing and to be redone if there are configuration and design changes) and has to be maintained by a certified maintenance organisation and operated by a certified operator (continued airworthymess is a operator thing, just don't ask me any details on that, I work on the PO and touched some maintenance stuff in my life so far). Usually, EASA and FAA cross certify, making it easier to get one if you have the other already. Fascinating stuff, aerospace certification.
threatripper 4y ago
> where the autopilot lands the aircraft in case of Pilot incapacitation OEFGR could have used that. Their autopilot just continued to fly straight until they ran out of fuel and spiraled down into the sea.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  It needs to be manually activated.
  - pholbrook 4y ago
    "The G3000 also monitors pilot activity/inactivity and cabin pressure and can automatically engage Autoland or Emergency Descent Mode if no activity is detected." - Arstechnica article. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/11/this-system-from-garmin-can-land-a-private-plane-when-your-pilot-cant/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/11/this-system-from-garmin...
Animats 4y ago
Has Safe Return yet been used in an emergency? I've seen the demo videos, but haven't seen any news reports of it being used for real. It's not wasted hardware even if not used. The aircraft already has a flight control system capable of flying from waypoint to waypoint and landing. Safe Return adds a layer of software able to compute and enter a course, while squawking Mayday and playing canned emergency messages on the guard frequency. New hardware is just a radio altimeter for use in landing, and the ability to lower the landing gear under computer control.
- dweekly 4y ago
  Didn't this have to add a lot more automation that goes beyond what a typical Cirrus with Perspective/Perspective+ would offer? Not just the radar altimeter and automated gear extension but autothrottle, flaps, braking, an auto-flare, etc...

johntb86 4y ago

What sort of circumstances would they use this parachute? Engine failure? In a spin?

_s 4y ago
Nearly always in the event of an engine failure or an unrecoverable attitude; which may be a spin. Cirrus’s transition training emphasises pulling the chute - the seats and airframe are designed to absorb the vertical impact and protect the people on board. Most other aircraft you learn to pick a field to glide into, or do spin / unusual attitude training to recover from them. The chute is essentially a get out of jail free card for when you don’t have the options for any of those things.
Gracana 4y ago
Engine failure, running out of fuel, stalls, spins, midair collisions, disorientation, etc. Cirrus has a history of CAPS deployments, linked in the article and copied here: https://www.cirruspilots.org/Safety/CAPS-Event-History https://www.cirruspilots.org/Safety/CAPS-Event-History
- hackitup7 4y ago
  Very impressive to see how many people were able to walk away from these incidents, I wonder what the counts of injury or worse would look like without this system? Also it seems like these small planes have a lot of incidents, I'm guessing due to relatively inexperienced pilots?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Small plane pilots are generally “not as experienced as they could be” and so Cirrus pilots are trained “when in doubt pop it out” as you might be able to successfully crash land or make it to a landing field, but the chute doesn’t work below a certain altitude.
    - AYBABTME 4y ago

p_l 4y ago

It's not unique to Cirrus, but Cirrus is probably most well known for having made bigger and heavier planes with BRS

lisper 4y ago
> It's not unique to Cirrus Not any more, but Cirrus introduced this technology to general aviation.
- tristanb 4y ago
  The BRS was produced and patented by another company, then purchased by Cirrus who were the first to include it as standard equipment. But not the first in aviation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems
- p_l 4y ago
  Cirrus only made the first in terms of standard type certified aircraft in USA, BRS in ultralight and experimental class were common by then.
throwaway894345 4y ago
What is BRS?
- krisoft 4y ago
  Ballistic Recovery System. It is a parachute afixed to the airframe which can be deployed by the pilot. It is named that because the parachute is pulled out of its housing by a small solid-fueled rocket. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems
- chinathrow 4y ago
  The manufacturer of those rescue systems. https://brsaerospace.com/ https://brsaerospace.com/

hugh-avherald 4y ago

It's no longer considered a last-resort measure. Cirrus training now says to consider it as a first resort.

tialaramex 4y ago
Indeed, you need to consider CAPS early because it requires altitude, in a plane with a problem you are presumably losing altitude, maybe rapidly, so it won't be long before you can't use CAPS. By then you need to have either decided to use it, or picked some other course of action so that you don't need it. Unlike the rocket ejector seat in a fighter jet, CAPS cannot save you very close to the ground. The ejector seat in a modern fighter is rated for zero/zero ie you could pull the handle from a plane that's just sat on the ground motionless, it would still eject you upward and you'd probably survive. CAPS is intended to be used at two thousand feet AGL (ie above the ground)
- littlestymaar 4y ago
  > CAPS is intended to be used at two thousand feet AGL (ie above the ground) As another person commented[1], they claim it to work as low as 400ft (straight and level flight, 920ft during a spin). Much higher than a combat jet, but not too bad either. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32802182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32802182
- nradov 4y ago
  Even zero/zero ejection seats can be outside the safe envelope if the aircraft is at low altitude, and is either inverted or has a negative sink rate.
imglorp 4y ago
As a glider pilot I find this mindset disappointing. Every aviator must have a constantly updating array of "what if" situations and planned responses: "Right now, where's my best landing spot and how would I get lined up for that?" etc. It leads to a chess-like thinking ahead mindset which brings all kinds of benefits. "Whelp I'll just pull the lever if something goes wrong" robs you of that. Automation and chutes are fine but we keep seeing incidents where lack of judgement, planning or basic stick and rudder skills were contributory.