5 ms·

An enthusiast’s deep dive into mechanical keyboard switches

131 points by microtonal 4y ago

adornKey 4y ago
A very complete list. Maybe the article is missing Cherry Vintage Blacks. I once participated in a machanical keyboard meetup. There were a lot of Keyboards on display - mostly homemade. The one that for me really stood out was one built using vintage blacks.
- Findecanor 4y ago
  Cherry MX switches were indeed smoother in the older days. Not just Black, but Brown and Blue as well. Switches could get smoother as the plastic wears down, but that is not the whole story as evidenced by New-Old-Stock vintage keyboards also having smoother switches. I think Cherry wasn't really ready for the demand when the mechanical keyboard craze began, and therefore their quality suffered for several years. They have supposedly improved their manufacturing in more recent years, but the risk is that when you buy a new keyboard you'll still get switches from an old batch and not the new improved ones.
  - adornKey 4y ago
    Ah, I missed that Cherry did some retooling again in 2018. https://www.reddit.com/r/MechSwitchReview/comments/hlc6wt/cherry_mx_vintage_black_review_a_modders_dream/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechSwitchReview/comments/hlc6wt/ch... In the keyboard meetup back then I talked to the people from Cherry a lot. I told them that they have a lot of choices, but none of them is as great as that old vintage black over there... They were owned by ZF and very into big industrial customers. In 2018 they talked about getting more independent again and about starting to care more about small customers. Also they were hiring all sorts of positions - to me it almost looked like a start from scratch - they listed positions from sales to firmware development... It was way too difficult back then to buy from Cherry. So I chose Alps from Matias for my builds. Other then that I use an old indestructible Keytronic ErgoForce and a Topre.
microtonal 4y ago
A colleague pointed me to this (hi Madeesh!), it's a real nice description of various switch types that I didn't see before.
rcarmo 4y ago
No mention of chocs or any other low-profile switches.
baybal2 4y ago
Mechanical switches are by no definition impossible to make bounceless. SPDT pushbuttons with both outputs wired through a D-latch are perfectly bounceless.
Syzygies 4y ago
1. Try a Leopold FC660C keyboard before getting too far down this rabbit hole, and confirmation bias gets in the way of seeing that Topre switches are nicer than any mechanical switch. 2. Then install a Hasu FC660C Controller, and start customizing the firmware. Typing, like sex, is far more about software than hardware. 3. Now prepare yourself for the split/ergo keyboard advocates. They have a point if your hands move. If you rearrange your layout so pretty much anything is nearly home row, but a tap-hold one-finger-each-hand chord, your hands don't move. Typing is bimodal. Sometimes you're in the saddle, hard at work. Sometimes you're reaching in to find "pause" with a glass of wine in the other hand. A conventional keyboard is handy for reaching in, even if it's secretly a chording keyboard along home row.
- hyperpl 4y ago
  I have been using Topre switches for over 10 years both at work and at home, even going as far as traveling with one of them if I need to use a desktop at my destination. I have only tried Cherry {red, brown, clear} and the Keytronic "Model M" variant but I still prefer the Topre switches. I do have quite fond memories of various IBM Model M keyboards when I was younger but for now I'm quite happy with Topre. Would be curious to hear of people having been in a similar situation that ultimately found another switch they prefer over Topre.
  - voldacar 4y ago
    Try the model F. It's significantly better than the M. Still the polar opposite of topre
  - TacticalCoder 4y ago
    Same as you basically. Tried so many of them back in the days... To me the switch is way more important than the physical layout: if the physical layout is good enough, it's good enough. Buckling springs: I stockpiled IBM Model M back when it wasn't a thing and used that for years. Alps. Cherry MXes. Then I tried a board with Topre switch and since then I'm happily camping with my HHKB Pro JP (japanese). I'd try these fancy ergonomic / self made keyboards but only the day they'll start making them with Topre switches. That's my "hack": seen that I couldn't get any custom keyboard with Topre switches, I picked the next best thing to me... A japanese Topre keyboard. Now the funny thing is: despite having some japanese family, I don't speak japanese at all (well, ok, I know the names of a few animals and know the hiraganas but that's it). I really only picked a japanese keyboard for the very narrow space bar (the point is not that the space bar is tiny but that a tiny space bar makes for modifiers left and right of the spacebar easy to reach with the thumbs as the thumbs have much less distance to travel). Another bonus of having more modifiers is that can have these additional modifiers acting as Super and Hyper. P.S: as a european for whatever reason it wasn't easy to get a Japanese HHKB Pro JP shipped to me, so I got my family in Japan to bring me two when they visited me.
formerly_proven 4y ago
I can’t reply to the dead comment as I can’t vouch, so… > Mechanical switches are by no definition impossible to make bounceless. In practice this doesn’t matter, because debouncing can be done without introducing a delay, it’s merely a question of writing firmware competently (most gaming hardware vendors don’t excel in this area).
going_ham 4y ago
I switched to a split keyboard. Went from 8 wpm to 30 wpm in 9 days!!! It's doable. I can work at this speed. I had 70 WPM. But I believe I will gradually reach better speed. However, the gains have been huge for me! I can finally type in relaxed position. The layers are amazing!! I don't have to reach shift for those symbols. Everything is within good reach. Let's see what happens down the line. But split keyboard layout sold me! Will definitely go deeper into making one with low profile choc!!!
- ryantgtg 4y ago
  The Mistel split keyboard is perfect for me. I like that the sides are totally separate so you can adjust it however you want. I “got into” mechanical keyboards for about a month (got a leopold that felt too hard for my tastes), but then I shifted my attention elsewhere once I got this Mistel.
  - going_ham 4y ago
    I bought Sofle v2! It fits my hand in a good way!
  - microtonal 4y ago
    I was very much interested in the Mistel models. I wanted a pre-built split mechanical keyboard. I was very much liked what the Mistel MD600 and MD770 looked like. But I ended up ordering a Freestyle Edge instead. The only thing that really put me off was that the Kinesis is programmable with software (or plain text files) and more extensively, while programming of the Mistel keyboard seems more limited. The other more minor worry was that I can probably still get a Freestyle in 10 years (if I like it) and Mistel hasn't been around as long. If Mistel had better programmable firmware, I would have gone Mistel... Maybe if I need a travel keyboard some day, I'll get the MD600.
    - ryantgtg 4y ago
      Mine is the MD770. And yeah, I didn’t research the programmability very well beforehand and was surprised to find it wasn’t easy. I simply wanted to move my Home and End keys! But I quickly gave up. Otherwise no complaints. It feels great.
dang 4y ago
Recent and related: DIY mechanical keyboard switch lets you set its actuation point - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32722411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32722411 - Sept 2022 (77 comments) Also: Detailed guide to mechanical keyboards (switch types, hysteresis graphs, etc) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1539197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1539197 - July 2010 (17 comments)
- dbttdft 4y ago
  > Second article Why does this guy claim that the potential input latency of a debounce implementation negates the latency caused by decreasing the polling rate? This is such a typical non-sequitur I see in computer related topics and doesn't change my mind that mechanical keyboards are yet another gimmick mainly lead by charlatans. Also the fact that you can just set 99% of keyboards, even from 20 years ago to 1000Hz with a tweak.
mikotodomo 4y ago
MODS WTF delete this thread. There is weird peod shit in the ads. I even clicked report on them and nothing happened. I think this is a fake Google Ads. Why are you downvoting me? Are you in on this?? Good thing I kept an image for proof (NSFW!!!!): https://postimg.cc/xXgyYgcc https://postimg.cc/xXgyYgcc
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
stereoradonc 4y ago
A huge fan of the Kailh Box Jades or Navies. They feel "heavier" when I type, and create an awful amount of rattle, but the most satisfying to type! Using a lightly modded keyboard, and can't comment much on the build quality, but needed a decent Bluetooth keyboard. A tip for beginners - get testers and find out the differences between the switches. Choose the ones that sound most aesthetic to you. It's about sound (and typing experience) that makes the mechanical keyboards stand out. Besides, the quality of the keycaps requires a careful deliberation. Thin PBT types can sound "tinny" or change the perception; use the double shot. Always settle for a hot-swappable board - you can easily change switches and caps and use them in any combination. Happy typing!
entropie 4y ago
Here an "essential" guide to switches I recently saw on reddit and saved for future reference: https://i.redd.it/a2rtcrbexwj91.png https://i.redd.it/a2rtcrbexwj91.png
- willis936 4y ago
  Black text on a grey background. Literally unreadable.
Aeolun 4y ago
Do these articles really have to have a huge ad interpersed every single paragraph? Especially if they’re ads for keyboards it becomes really confusing.
willis936 4y ago
I've been using silent reds since they first came out and recently have started using speed silvers. They really are great. Capital G Gamers don't know what they have. All of the reviews I've read involve mental gymnastics to explain how a higher actuation point doesn't actually reduce response time. This is a product that a sane market would love. Instead what really sells is colored LEDs.
fire 4y ago
I wish there was a good split topre keyboard
- fomine3 4y ago
  there was https://www.personal-media.co.jp/retail/utronkb/index.html https://www.personal-media.co.jp/retail/utronkb/index.html
  - fire 4y ago
    ah, I mean something closer to the kinesis advantage styled split ortholinear keywell boards

131 points by microtonal 4y ago

A very complete list. Maybe the article is missing Cherry Vintage Blacks. I once participated in a machanical keyboard meetup. There were a lot of Keyboards on display - mostly homemade. The one that for me really stood out was one built using vintage blacks.

Findecanor 4y ago
Cherry MX switches were indeed smoother in the older days. Not just Black, but Brown and Blue as well. Switches could get smoother as the plastic wears down, but that is not the whole story as evidenced by New-Old-Stock vintage keyboards also having smoother switches. I think Cherry wasn't really ready for the demand when the mechanical keyboard craze began, and therefore their quality suffered for several years. They have supposedly improved their manufacturing in more recent years, but the risk is that when you buy a new keyboard you'll still get switches from an old batch and not the new improved ones.
- adornKey 4y ago
  Ah, I missed that Cherry did some retooling again in 2018. https://www.reddit.com/r/MechSwitchReview/comments/hlc6wt/cherry_mx_vintage_black_review_a_modders_dream/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechSwitchReview/comments/hlc6wt/ch... In the keyboard meetup back then I talked to the people from Cherry a lot. I told them that they have a lot of choices, but none of them is as great as that old vintage black over there... They were owned by ZF and very into big industrial customers. In 2018 they talked about getting more independent again and about starting to care more about small customers. Also they were hiring all sorts of positions - to me it almost looked like a start from scratch - they listed positions from sales to firmware development... It was way too difficult back then to buy from Cherry. So I chose Alps from Matias for my builds. Other then that I use an old indestructible Keytronic ErgoForce and a Topre.

microtonal 4y ago

A colleague pointed me to this (hi Madeesh!), it's a real nice description of various switch types that I didn't see before.

rcarmo 4y ago

No mention of chocs or any other low-profile switches.

baybal2 4y ago

Mechanical switches are by no definition impossible to make bounceless. SPDT pushbuttons with both outputs wired through a D-latch are perfectly bounceless.

Syzygies 4y ago

1. Try a Leopold FC660C keyboard before getting too far down this rabbit hole, and confirmation bias gets in the way of seeing that Topre switches are nicer than any mechanical switch. 2. Then install a Hasu FC660C Controller, and start customizing the firmware. Typing, like sex, is far more about software than hardware. 3. Now prepare yourself for the split/ergo keyboard advocates. They have a point if your hands move. If you rearrange your layout so pretty much anything is nearly home row, but a tap-hold one-finger-each-hand chord, your hands don't move. Typing is bimodal. Sometimes you're in the saddle, hard at work. Sometimes you're reaching in to find "pause" with a glass of wine in the other hand. A conventional keyboard is handy for reaching in, even if it's secretly a chording keyboard along home row.

hyperpl 4y ago
I have been using Topre switches for over 10 years both at work and at home, even going as far as traveling with one of them if I need to use a desktop at my destination. I have only tried Cherry {red, brown, clear} and the Keytronic "Model M" variant but I still prefer the Topre switches. I do have quite fond memories of various IBM Model M keyboards when I was younger but for now I'm quite happy with Topre. Would be curious to hear of people having been in a similar situation that ultimately found another switch they prefer over Topre.
- voldacar 4y ago
  Try the model F. It's significantly better than the M. Still the polar opposite of topre
- TacticalCoder 4y ago
  Same as you basically. Tried so many of them back in the days... To me the switch is way more important than the physical layout: if the physical layout is good enough, it's good enough. Buckling springs: I stockpiled IBM Model M back when it wasn't a thing and used that for years. Alps. Cherry MXes. Then I tried a board with Topre switch and since then I'm happily camping with my HHKB Pro JP (japanese). I'd try these fancy ergonomic / self made keyboards but only the day they'll start making them with Topre switches. That's my "hack": seen that I couldn't get any custom keyboard with Topre switches, I picked the next best thing to me... A japanese Topre keyboard. Now the funny thing is: despite having some japanese family, I don't speak japanese at all (well, ok, I know the names of a few animals and know the hiraganas but that's it). I really only picked a japanese keyboard for the very narrow space bar (the point is not that the space bar is tiny but that a tiny space bar makes for modifiers left and right of the spacebar easy to reach with the thumbs as the thumbs have much less distance to travel). Another bonus of having more modifiers is that can have these additional modifiers acting as Super and Hyper. P.S: as a european for whatever reason it wasn't easy to get a Japanese HHKB Pro JP shipped to me, so I got my family in Japan to bring me two when they visited me.

formerly_proven 4y ago

I can’t reply to the dead comment as I can’t vouch, so… > Mechanical switches are by no definition impossible to make bounceless. In practice this doesn’t matter, because debouncing can be done without introducing a delay, it’s merely a question of writing firmware competently (most gaming hardware vendors don’t excel in this area).

going_ham 4y ago

I switched to a split keyboard. Went from 8 wpm to 30 wpm in 9 days!!! It's doable. I can work at this speed. I had 70 WPM. But I believe I will gradually reach better speed. However, the gains have been huge for me! I can finally type in relaxed position. The layers are amazing!! I don't have to reach shift for those symbols. Everything is within good reach. Let's see what happens down the line. But split keyboard layout sold me! Will definitely go deeper into making one with low profile choc!!!

ryantgtg 4y ago
The Mistel split keyboard is perfect for me. I like that the sides are totally separate so you can adjust it however you want. I “got into” mechanical keyboards for about a month (got a leopold that felt too hard for my tastes), but then I shifted my attention elsewhere once I got this Mistel.
- going_ham 4y ago
  I bought Sofle v2! It fits my hand in a good way!
- microtonal 4y ago
  I was very much interested in the Mistel models. I wanted a pre-built split mechanical keyboard. I was very much liked what the Mistel MD600 and MD770 looked like. But I ended up ordering a Freestyle Edge instead. The only thing that really put me off was that the Kinesis is programmable with software (or plain text files) and more extensively, while programming of the Mistel keyboard seems more limited. The other more minor worry was that I can probably still get a Freestyle in 10 years (if I like it) and Mistel hasn't been around as long. If Mistel had better programmable firmware, I would have gone Mistel... Maybe if I need a travel keyboard some day, I'll get the MD600.
  - ryantgtg 4y ago
    Mine is the MD770. And yeah, I didn’t research the programmability very well beforehand and was surprised to find it wasn’t easy. I simply wanted to move my Home and End keys! But I quickly gave up. Otherwise no complaints. It feels great.

dang 4y ago

Recent and related: DIY mechanical keyboard switch lets you set its actuation point - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32722411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32722411 - Sept 2022 (77 comments) Also: Detailed guide to mechanical keyboards (switch types, hysteresis graphs, etc) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1539197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1539197 - July 2010 (17 comments)

dbttdft 4y ago
> Second article Why does this guy claim that the potential input latency of a debounce implementation negates the latency caused by decreasing the polling rate? This is such a typical non-sequitur I see in computer related topics and doesn't change my mind that mechanical keyboards are yet another gimmick mainly lead by charlatans. Also the fact that you can just set 99% of keyboards, even from 20 years ago to 1000Hz with a tweak.

mikotodomo 4y ago

MODS WTF delete this thread. There is weird peod shit in the ads. I even clicked report on them and nothing happened. I think this is a fake Google Ads. Why are you downvoting me? Are you in on this?? Good thing I kept an image for proof (NSFW!!!!): https://postimg.cc/xXgyYgcc https://postimg.cc/xXgyYgcc

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

stereoradonc 4y ago

A huge fan of the Kailh Box Jades or Navies. They feel "heavier" when I type, and create an awful amount of rattle, but the most satisfying to type! Using a lightly modded keyboard, and can't comment much on the build quality, but needed a decent Bluetooth keyboard. A tip for beginners - get testers and find out the differences between the switches. Choose the ones that sound most aesthetic to you. It's about sound (and typing experience) that makes the mechanical keyboards stand out. Besides, the quality of the keycaps requires a careful deliberation. Thin PBT types can sound "tinny" or change the perception; use the double shot. Always settle for a hot-swappable board - you can easily change switches and caps and use them in any combination. Happy typing!

entropie 4y ago

Here an "essential" guide to switches I recently saw on reddit and saved for future reference: https://i.redd.it/a2rtcrbexwj91.png https://i.redd.it/a2rtcrbexwj91.png

willis936 4y ago
Black text on a grey background. Literally unreadable.

Aeolun 4y ago

Do these articles really have to have a huge ad interpersed every single paragraph? Especially if they’re ads for keyboards it becomes really confusing.

willis936 4y ago

I've been using silent reds since they first came out and recently have started using speed silvers. They really are great. Capital G Gamers don't know what they have. All of the reviews I've read involve mental gymnastics to explain how a higher actuation point doesn't actually reduce response time. This is a product that a sane market would love. Instead what really sells is colored LEDs.

fire 4y ago

I wish there was a good split topre keyboard

fomine3 4y ago
there was https://www.personal-media.co.jp/retail/utronkb/index.html https://www.personal-media.co.jp/retail/utronkb/index.html
- fire 4y ago
  ah, I mean something closer to the kinesis advantage styled split ortholinear keywell boards