15 ms·

FTC proposes rule to ban junk fees, bait-and-switch tactics plaguing car buyers

198 points by ParksNet 4y ago

ryeights 4y ago
Excellent news; the nonsense that car dealers have been able to get away with since the start of the pandemic is simply ridiculous. Perhaps most frustrating is the complete uselessness of posted prices, as many dealerships note in very fine print that their advertised prices are only valid for purchases financed through the dealership (no doubt at ridiculous APRs.) "Doc fees" are also something I would love to see eliminated—sometimes upwards of $500 for the dealer to submit some online forms to the DMV...
- nradov 4y ago
  I'm not going to defend deceptive dealership sales practices, but as long as you have a good credit rating they often offer very good APRs. Most manufacturers have captive finance arms to juice their sales numbers and the financing terms can be better than what you would get from an independent lender. For example, Toyota is offering 2.49% on a 4-year loan which is lower than the US Treasury yield so if you do have to buy a car then you can literally make a profit by borrowing from them.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    There are still a number of 0% financing deals out there, if you can find the cars they're offered on.
  - staringback 4y ago
    With the exclusion of the recent unprecedented times, that brand new car would depreciate far more rapidly than your perceived profit hedging against inflation.
    - to11mtm 4y ago
      I mean, USUALLY sure. There are exceptions to some extent and I've been lucky in this regard [0], but in general I'd say the problem is people just don't care. I -do- tend to shop on overall depreciation/resale value and try to order my cars in a way that while I completely intend to drive it into the ground, I will avoid any creature features that don't help with long term value or are too rich for my blood. [1] Also while GP is somewhat overstating their case, that depreciation hit is gonna happen if you pay cash anyway. It's not 'hedging against inflation' so much as 'minimizing interest paid on depreciation'. I will also say there are cases where perhaps it could make some level of sense. I'm kinda an odd duck and fell into this boat; My 10 year old car with age and a bad^bad oil change gets 18-24MPG for a good part of the year now, and only takes 91+. I switched to a Hybrid and the gas savings alone covers the majority of my payment. [0] 3 of the 4 new cars I've bought fell into this range. The first was a Saturn I flew to Texas to grab, it had no A/C so I got it for a steal. The second was A car I bought 10 years ago with ~10% down was only 'underwater' for about 6 months of a 72 month loan. The latest was the start of this year, but I'm confident that even after things subside it will still hold value fairly well. [1] Special infotainment systems, upgraded audio and remote start come to mind. People don't particularly shop for most infotainment systems on used cars. Upgraded audio is likely better handled by a trustworthy local shop if you really want it. Remote start just seems overpriced by most manufacturers, and IMO for most people (barring a medical need for the climate to be in a certain state immediately) another sign of society's environmental disregard.
- kyleblarson 4y ago
  I generally hate treating anyone like a bad person but I figured out about 15 years ago that car dealers are only in it to extract as much money out of you as possible and there's no need to treat them as nice people. I've had success with my last few trucks emailing a dealer when I see the truck in stock that I want, saying "Attached please see pictures of my trade in, here's the VIN, here's the mileage. Please tell me the exact amount I will need to bring with me to your dealership in a cashier's check to get the new truck. I will only reply to one more email with a yes / no response. I will also not do any sort of credit check at your dealership so know that going in. I will walk away if your finance person claims that I have to do one."
  - abawany 4y ago
    Hopefully they are on their last hurrah after exploiting current customers with their nasty markups, including for pre-orders, due to the current shortages. Looking forward to seeing how Ford executes on its plans to get them out of the loop: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-online-only-with-no-dealer-markups-says-ceo-farley/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-... .
- woobar 4y ago
  Submitting forms to the DMV is a separate line item (Title and Registration). Doc fee is just profit in disguise.
throw10920 4y ago
It's unclear to me as to whether "Require full upfront disclosure of costs and conditions" also applies to subscription services, which is something that I'd really like transparency in.
- 1970-01-01 4y ago
  Yes. See § 463.5(b)(3)
gmarx 4y ago
Charging customers for nitrogen filled tires that contain no more nitrogen than air (hey 78% is a lot!) reminds me of an idea I had to market regular salt as "ancient sea salt". I cracked myself up with this idea and thinking about the suckers in Whole Foods switching to it from their pink Himalayan or whatever regular sea salt. Then I searched and discovered that of course some scumbag was actually doing it. Hehe
- wincy 4y ago
  I mean Pink Himalayan Salt is funny marketing too. “Pink Pakistani Mine Salt” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
  - ak217 4y ago
    Where I live, Costco sells potato chips with salt inspired by ancient Himalayan salt which cracks me up every time.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Yesterday I bought some vegetable chips at the store. It contained one vegetable: potato.
      - konfusinomicon 4y ago
        don't forget about the beet juice used for coloring!
        kube-system 4y ago
        These ones didn’t even have that!
      - andrewia 4y ago
        Most of the chips I've seen are guilty of this, from Trader Joe's to the popular Veggie Straws. They're essentially baked/popped chips with no extra nutritional content. "Veggie" is definitely deceptional to the average consumer, who expects vitamins and minerals.
spaghettiToy 4y ago
I'm having our third kid in December and we need a bigger car. No idea what to do. Wait? Used are the same price as new.
- ghaff 4y ago
  I bought a new car recently that there was very little haggle room on but at least no markup (other than the doc fee, etc.) Also took 6 weeks. But I did get a $15K trade-in on a 75K mile, 11 yo car with visible body damage. I was shocked. That must suggest something about used car prices.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    The dealer I bought my 2018 Toyota from has been hassling me for the last couple of years trying to buy it back. Only recently have they backed off.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Is there a reasonable chance that the vehicle you want will be ready by then? In your shoes I'd try to place the order. Otherwise I'd get something a few years old (2018+). In 24 months it'll be ridiculously messy anyways, and I think a 20k mile difference is negligible these days.
  - JadeNB 4y ago
    > In 24 months it'll be ridiculously messy anyways, and I think a 20k mile difference is negligible these days. Is something predicted to happen in 24 months, or do you just mean that we don't know and can't reasonably predict it?
    - bdcravens 4y ago
      I'm saying that children are very messy, so no need to worry about a car looking new.
      - 4y ago
intrasight 4y ago
For the last couple of new cars that I bought, I emailed the "internet sales manager" at three local dealers and asked for a quote. I bought the car from the dealer with the lowest quote. I paid the quoted amount. This has been the suggested way to buy cars for like 20 years. I've not bought a new car in a while. Would this approach somehow break down now?
- tmpz22 4y ago
  I think it depends on the state you're in and the inventory of the car you're buying. Some states have already implemented strong consumer protections that would have encouraged this style of transaction and eliminate many of the mechanisms where it could go wrong. Further, in the last two years there have been a strong demand and low supply for vehicles. Many dealerships were selling out of cars months before they were even delivered - meaning they're bought sight unseen. Finally they get marked-up 10% or more. So even the cheapest bid is still well over the sales price established by the manufacturer. Source: Bought a car in 2021, did a lot of research.
- mcguirep 4y ago
  I've done the same in the past certainly. With the relative paucity of new cars available on the market due to supply chain issues, getting an actual out the door quote with real numbers without being in the dealership has been a lot harder for the past year. It's easing up a little bit as demand softens and more supply becomes available.
  - intrasight 4y ago
    I'll try to keep my 2004 on the road for a couple more years, and cross my fingers that this supply crunch gets resolved soon.
    - icelancer 4y ago
      That's where I'm at. Was thinking about buying a new car in 2020, and then... yeah. Just riding it out until late 2023 or early 2024 in my projections.
joosters 4y ago
None of these proposed bans or guidelines seem specific to cars, so why are they being narrowly targetted at them? Bans on bait-and-switch, fraudulent fees, junk fees, and requiring upfront disclosure of costs and conditions should apply to anything that you buy.
- kube-system 4y ago
  As I understand, many of these practices are generally illegal, but this is more of a targeted refinement to address a topical pain point.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- nerdponx 4y ago
  It's just like privacy and VCR rentals. The car dealers in particular lost the "lobbying vs. public opinion" battle, but the other constituent business lobbies remain protected.
- themitigating 4y ago
  What the junk fees actually are must be specifically stated. That's why it won't work for all types of products
1970-01-01 4y ago
FTC document: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/07/13/2022-14214/motor-vehicle-dealers-trade-regulation-rule https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/07/13/2022-14...
nimbius 4y ago
hoo boy if you car owners think youre getting screwed in the recession, its been like this for motorcycles for about 30 years. "oh we just sold it" "oh that ones not on our lot" "the price is only for financing." I once had a dealer advertise a two year old but new Yamaha, on paper, for six grand less than the wheelbarrow of fees that showed up after I asked for a quote in person. The "documentation" meeting was nearly an hour of upsells for special wax, special accessories, "racing nitrogen" in the tires on a touring bike, a 3000 mile care package, you name it. and each "document" was literally trying to get me to sign an agreement to purchase until the very end where I signed the receipt and state title forms.
- colpabar 4y ago
  > "oh we just sold it" Damn. This is exactly what happened to me when I bought my current car a few years ago. I found it used on the dealer website, it had everything I wanted and had <20k miles. I setup an appointment to see it on a friday, called thursday night just to make sure, "oh we just sold it, but we have a new one you can look at." I never even considered that they could just be lying. Oh well, lesson learned I guess. It's paid off now, but I am looking at upgrading, and I'm gonna assume everything anyone at the dealership says is a lie until I see paperwork.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Get back at them by going through the whole process, but right when they want to sign the actual paperwork, get up and leave. Tease them by getting so close to a deal, and then just bounce. Tell them you've changed your mind, fake a text/call requiring you now, etc. The will fall over themselves to not let the sale slip away with the price of the car suddenly able to come down to make it happen.
mistrial9 4y ago
andrew_ 4y ago
I was looking at purchasing a newer, used Land Rover a few months back from a Land Rover dealership (one that had a sterling reputation prior to a buy out). The sheet of non-negotiable fees was rolled out, which raised the price nearly $5,000. The $1895 for "Executive Concierge Fee" blew my mind, consisting of your basic $150 detail and a slew of additional items that one could buy and apply from any Pep Boys for under $100. Funny enough, when I got up to walk away I was asked if I would buy the vehicle that day if some of those $5,000 of "non-negotiable" fees were removed. I contacted the sales manager to tell him why I'd never be back. They couldn't care less. It must mean that enough people fall for these scam fees or don't pay attention to the line items that they can afford to not care. It looks like that rule would address this, and I'm for it.
- quickthrowman 4y ago
  You were interested in buying a used Land Rover, of course they’re going to try and soak you. People that are good with money generally don’t buy used Land Rovers.
  - andrew_ 4y ago
    I have a used Land Rover, got a great price on it, and it's been a very solid vehicle for my needs. Your assertion is dripping with bias, overly generalized, stereotyping, and is incredibly ignorant.
    - guardiangod 4y ago
      When I was an intern a fellow intern got a 4 year old Land Rover. In the next 6 months he had to - Check engine light on. Checked multiple time. Never went away - Replace engine gasket - replace rear diff - replace rear axle (did the dealership broke this?) The forth one happened while he was returning from the manufacturer dealership for the 3rd issue, about half way to our town (about 90km left) The worst thing was, he actually bought warranty from the car dealership, but they managed to weasel out every single item. Pardon me if I am on the grandparent's side.
sagarun 4y ago
One of the chair dissented on these rules: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/P204800MotorVehicleNPRMWilsonStatement.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/P204800MotorVeh... Says these rules will stifle innovation and some car makers are doing direct sales so rule is not really needed.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  "Some people are not doing it anymore" is a ridiculous reason to not-ban something that absolutely should be banned.
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    We don't need to make murder illegal anymore because some people are not doing it.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  No surprise based on the bio. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_S._Wilson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_S._Wilson
gamblor956 4y ago
Some carmakers are dealing with this directly. Subaru, for example, requires dealers to sell cars at MSRP...and does not allow dealers to mandate "mandatory" add-ons like extended warranties or "paint protection packages." Dealers which violate these rules get their dealer allotments reduced for desirable models/trims. (In the LA area, a dealer that was adding a mandatory $3000 protection package to certain 2022 Outback trims saw its dealer allotments quartered for those trims for the 2023 model year.)
- to11mtm 4y ago
  > Subaru, for example, requires dealers to sell cars at MSRP I'm glad they do that now. I know one dealer local to me tried to pull a markup on me... 10 years ago (when it was easy to find another dealer that was able to give me invoice due to a TrueCar thing.) I will say, one of the best things about Saturn was No-Haggle, consistent pricing. As relatively pleasant as the dealer I bought my WRX from was, it was still a pretty big 'jolt' compared to my previous experiences with Saturn.
anm89 4y ago
If we could redirect our populism away from aggressive handouts and towards consumer protections, that could be a party I'd consider supporting. This is a great move.
encryptluks2 4y ago
How about ban mandatory arbitration when buying a new car. Now that would actually cause dealerships to think twice before screwing over customers.
kevincox 4y ago
I think there should be a generic rule for everything that the advertised price is something that you can actually pay and get the product. No $50 concert tickets with $75 of fees, advertising that for less than $125 should be illegal. Of course I'm sure people will get creative with "optional" upsells, the $50 ticket is in the building but highly obstructed, but I think this is at least a huge step forward.
- grecy 4y ago
  Australia has extremely strong consumer protections on things like this. It's really nice.
- silvestrov 4y ago
  Nederlands has this rule in the law (as far as I know). You cannot sell a $50 ticket with a surprise $10 fee. The product you sell must be fully usable at the advertised price.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
    I wonder how AirBnB gets around this. If you search for listings in The Netherlands you can see the service and cleaning fee not being added in on the map view, which seems like it’s a violation of the law you speak of.
    - zihotki 4y ago
      They can apply it only for people either visiting from NL, or having their billing address in NL, or something like that.
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
        I just went to airbnb.nl with my NL VPN active (I’m a US resident that was previously searching from airbnb.com) and sure enough the map prices show the actual price with all taxes and fees included when you visit airbnb.nl with a Dutch VPN active, unlike the American site. It also shows the price with all fees included if you visit airbnb.nl from the United States with no VPN active. Interestingly, if you visit with the Dutch VPN active but instead on airbnb.com, you also see the price with everything included on the map regardless of whether the map search you are doing is in the NL or the USA. But if you visit airbnb.com from the USA without VPN and search for a destination in NL (or USA, but that might be obvious) you don’t get prices with fees included. So it appears that AirBnB checks for either originating IP in NL or visiting via airbnb.nl to determine the behavior as of the time of this post. This is actually a great trick for me to learn as a States resident for when I want to browse AirBnB’s - I can just turn on my Dutch VPN for actual, non bullshit pricing on the map.
alphanumeric0 4y ago
Today, car ownership is a horrible value proposition. The car lobby has been all too successful in making America car-centric, which is a shame, because cars are great, but they aren't the only form of transportation out there. I've been car-free for at least five years. To be fair, I live in a city that is friendly towards alternate transportation. I bike or use my own electric scooter. I plan ahead and book a rental when I know I'll need a car. So far it's been cheaper than owning, and has saved me thousands of dollars. It's these sorts of shenanigans that I'm glad I don't have to deal with. Paying outrageous amounts for insurance is another. Not to mention parking headaches, the constant threat of high-speed, potentially fatal, accidents, or expensive maintenance.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  > I live in a city that is friendly towards alternate transportation Good for you. Most of us don't; that's why we buy cars.
- notch656a 4y ago
  >Today, car ownership is a horrible value proposition Owning a car was literally the only asset I had that appreciated from 2020-2022. Everything else got inflated to hell or burst in the stock crash. My new vehicle was worth more with 20k on the dash than before I drove it off the lot.
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    it's completely worthless value though, you can sell the car now... and then what? buy a car that's also appreciated a similar amount if you continue using the car, the price will come back down before end of life
    - notch656a 4y ago
      I could say that about literally anything. A house, a shoe, a radio, a soldering iron, a phone. Everything goes to zero sooner or later. My retirement plan includes selling off the car and moving to south east asia where I'll buy a 125cc moped, so I definitely plan to "cash out" sooner or later and not for another car.
DisjointedHunt 4y ago
When I first came to America, I realized the biggest myth is that people believe it is a capitalist nation with free markets. It is not. Not by a long shot. From buying a car to getting medical treatment, America has a very UNIQUE template of the way people think, talk, behave and deal with each industry that is radically different from the rest of the world. “Healthcare”?: They actually mean “Insurance”. The term has nothing to do with medicine, treatment, personal care or well being, but simply refers to this massive series of legislation over the decades that has enshrined government protection against competition in free markets leading to the extreme inefficiencies driving up prices. “Dealerships”?: They mean Govt protected localized monopolies with the mandate to abuse said market power against any known free market ideal. Energy Markets: Same story. Try building a transmission line, nuclear plant or any energy infrastructure in America and you’ll be lucky if you only go bankrupt and lose everything financially. Entities with the innovative courage to attempt such projects have terrible outcomes. “Housing”: This continues to amaze me with how selective, arbitrary, corrupt and inefficient permits, zoning and all the other functions run by local governments actually are. Take a region as prominent as the SF Bay Area and regardless of your position, everyone likely has a strong opinion on inefficiencies in the market and how they don’t really need to persist in a free market. In short, the biggest opportunity right now is a technological revolution in government and a challenge to the traditional form of local government that has proven so ineffective in a highly networked society. This will never happen though because of the inherent self interest of the present structure in keeping things the way they are.
inspector-g 4y ago
One thing that still confuses me is that brokers/agents are very common, or practically a requirement, in other areas but not at all in vehicle shopping. I would definitely pay a handsome fee to a broker to just absorb all the shopping/haggling pain, to cut through all the BS, on my behalf. I have tried this once with one of the very few brokers I could find, and it was definitely better but it was obvious there were several areas of the experience that could be massively improved. I chalked it up at the time to a lack of competition between brokers, since there really aren’t many.
- resoluteteeth 4y ago
  Rather then adding brokers, wouldn't it make more sense to just get rid of dealers and have cars sold at fixed prices?
arwhatever 4y ago
A common complaint is that these (U.S) regulatory agencies are too removed from the legislative/democratic process. But a quick search for “FTC” suggests this might be an agency I’m interested in supporting. But how does one go about doing so? How does one go about providing some sort of support to a one-or-more level removed regulatory agency?

198 points by ParksNet 4y ago

Excellent news; the nonsense that car dealers have been able to get away with since the start of the pandemic is simply ridiculous. Perhaps most frustrating is the complete uselessness of posted prices, as many dealerships note in very fine print that their advertised prices are only valid for purchases financed through the dealership (no doubt at ridiculous APRs.) "Doc fees" are also something I would love to see eliminated—sometimes upwards of $500 for the dealer to submit some online forms to the DMV...

nradov 4y ago
I'm not going to defend deceptive dealership sales practices, but as long as you have a good credit rating they often offer very good APRs. Most manufacturers have captive finance arms to juice their sales numbers and the financing terms can be better than what you would get from an independent lender. For example, Toyota is offering 2.49% on a 4-year loan which is lower than the US Treasury yield so if you do have to buy a car then you can literally make a profit by borrowing from them.
- kube-system 4y ago
  There are still a number of 0% financing deals out there, if you can find the cars they're offered on.
- staringback 4y ago
  With the exclusion of the recent unprecedented times, that brand new car would depreciate far more rapidly than your perceived profit hedging against inflation.
  - to11mtm 4y ago
    I mean, USUALLY sure. There are exceptions to some extent and I've been lucky in this regard [0], but in general I'd say the problem is people just don't care. I -do- tend to shop on overall depreciation/resale value and try to order my cars in a way that while I completely intend to drive it into the ground, I will avoid any creature features that don't help with long term value or are too rich for my blood. [1] Also while GP is somewhat overstating their case, that depreciation hit is gonna happen if you pay cash anyway. It's not 'hedging against inflation' so much as 'minimizing interest paid on depreciation'. I will also say there are cases where perhaps it could make some level of sense. I'm kinda an odd duck and fell into this boat; My 10 year old car with age and a bad^bad oil change gets 18-24MPG for a good part of the year now, and only takes 91+. I switched to a Hybrid and the gas savings alone covers the majority of my payment. [0] 3 of the 4 new cars I've bought fell into this range. The first was a Saturn I flew to Texas to grab, it had no A/C so I got it for a steal. The second was A car I bought 10 years ago with ~10% down was only 'underwater' for about 6 months of a 72 month loan. The latest was the start of this year, but I'm confident that even after things subside it will still hold value fairly well. [1] Special infotainment systems, upgraded audio and remote start come to mind. People don't particularly shop for most infotainment systems on used cars. Upgraded audio is likely better handled by a trustworthy local shop if you really want it. Remote start just seems overpriced by most manufacturers, and IMO for most people (barring a medical need for the climate to be in a certain state immediately) another sign of society's environmental disregard.
kyleblarson 4y ago
I generally hate treating anyone like a bad person but I figured out about 15 years ago that car dealers are only in it to extract as much money out of you as possible and there's no need to treat them as nice people. I've had success with my last few trucks emailing a dealer when I see the truck in stock that I want, saying "Attached please see pictures of my trade in, here's the VIN, here's the mileage. Please tell me the exact amount I will need to bring with me to your dealership in a cashier's check to get the new truck. I will only reply to one more email with a yes / no response. I will also not do any sort of credit check at your dealership so know that going in. I will walk away if your finance person claims that I have to do one."
- abawany 4y ago
  Hopefully they are on their last hurrah after exploiting current customers with their nasty markups, including for pre-orders, due to the current shortages. Looking forward to seeing how Ford executes on its plans to get them out of the loop: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-online-only-with-no-dealer-markups-says-ceo-farley/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-... .
woobar 4y ago
Submitting forms to the DMV is a separate line item (Title and Registration). Doc fee is just profit in disguise.

throw10920 4y ago

It's unclear to me as to whether "Require full upfront disclosure of costs and conditions" also applies to subscription services, which is something that I'd really like transparency in.

1970-01-01 4y ago
Yes. See § 463.5(b)(3)

gmarx 4y ago

Charging customers for nitrogen filled tires that contain no more nitrogen than air (hey 78% is a lot!) reminds me of an idea I had to market regular salt as "ancient sea salt". I cracked myself up with this idea and thinking about the suckers in Whole Foods switching to it from their pink Himalayan or whatever regular sea salt. Then I searched and discovered that of course some scumbag was actually doing it. Hehe

wincy 4y ago
I mean Pink Himalayan Salt is funny marketing too. “Pink Pakistani Mine Salt” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
- ak217 4y ago
  Where I live, Costco sells potato chips with salt inspired by ancient Himalayan salt which cracks me up every time.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Yesterday I bought some vegetable chips at the store. It contained one vegetable: potato.
    - konfusinomicon 4y ago
      don't forget about the beet juice used for coloring!
      - kube-system 4y ago
        These ones didn’t even have that!
    - andrewia 4y ago
      Most of the chips I've seen are guilty of this, from Trader Joe's to the popular Veggie Straws. They're essentially baked/popped chips with no extra nutritional content. "Veggie" is definitely deceptional to the average consumer, who expects vitamins and minerals.

spaghettiToy 4y ago

I'm having our third kid in December and we need a bigger car. No idea what to do. Wait? Used are the same price as new.

ghaff 4y ago
I bought a new car recently that there was very little haggle room on but at least no markup (other than the doc fee, etc.) Also took 6 weeks. But I did get a $15K trade-in on a 75K mile, 11 yo car with visible body damage. I was shocked. That must suggest something about used car prices.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  The dealer I bought my 2018 Toyota from has been hassling me for the last couple of years trying to buy it back. Only recently have they backed off.
bdcravens 4y ago
Is there a reasonable chance that the vehicle you want will be ready by then? In your shoes I'd try to place the order. Otherwise I'd get something a few years old (2018+). In 24 months it'll be ridiculously messy anyways, and I think a 20k mile difference is negligible these days.
- JadeNB 4y ago
  > In 24 months it'll be ridiculously messy anyways, and I think a 20k mile difference is negligible these days. Is something predicted to happen in 24 months, or do you just mean that we don't know and can't reasonably predict it?
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    I'm saying that children are very messy, so no need to worry about a car looking new.
    - 4y ago

intrasight 4y ago

For the last couple of new cars that I bought, I emailed the "internet sales manager" at three local dealers and asked for a quote. I bought the car from the dealer with the lowest quote. I paid the quoted amount. This has been the suggested way to buy cars for like 20 years. I've not bought a new car in a while. Would this approach somehow break down now?

tmpz22 4y ago
I think it depends on the state you're in and the inventory of the car you're buying. Some states have already implemented strong consumer protections that would have encouraged this style of transaction and eliminate many of the mechanisms where it could go wrong. Further, in the last two years there have been a strong demand and low supply for vehicles. Many dealerships were selling out of cars months before they were even delivered - meaning they're bought sight unseen. Finally they get marked-up 10% or more. So even the cheapest bid is still well over the sales price established by the manufacturer. Source: Bought a car in 2021, did a lot of research.
mcguirep 4y ago
I've done the same in the past certainly. With the relative paucity of new cars available on the market due to supply chain issues, getting an actual out the door quote with real numbers without being in the dealership has been a lot harder for the past year. It's easing up a little bit as demand softens and more supply becomes available.
- intrasight 4y ago
  I'll try to keep my 2004 on the road for a couple more years, and cross my fingers that this supply crunch gets resolved soon.
  - icelancer 4y ago
    That's where I'm at. Was thinking about buying a new car in 2020, and then... yeah. Just riding it out until late 2023 or early 2024 in my projections.

joosters 4y ago

None of these proposed bans or guidelines seem specific to cars, so why are they being narrowly targetted at them? Bans on bait-and-switch, fraudulent fees, junk fees, and requiring upfront disclosure of costs and conditions should apply to anything that you buy.

kube-system 4y ago
As I understand, many of these practices are generally illegal, but this is more of a targeted refinement to address a topical pain point.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
nerdponx 4y ago
It's just like privacy and VCR rentals. The car dealers in particular lost the "lobbying vs. public opinion" battle, but the other constituent business lobbies remain protected.
themitigating 4y ago
What the junk fees actually are must be specifically stated. That's why it won't work for all types of products

1970-01-01 4y ago

FTC document: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/07/13/2022-14214/motor-vehicle-dealers-trade-regulation-rule https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/07/13/2022-14...

nimbius 4y ago

hoo boy if you car owners think youre getting screwed in the recession, its been like this for motorcycles for about 30 years. "oh we just sold it" "oh that ones not on our lot" "the price is only for financing." I once had a dealer advertise a two year old but new Yamaha, on paper, for six grand less than the wheelbarrow of fees that showed up after I asked for a quote in person. The "documentation" meeting was nearly an hour of upsells for special wax, special accessories, "racing nitrogen" in the tires on a touring bike, a 3000 mile care package, you name it. and each "document" was literally trying to get me to sign an agreement to purchase until the very end where I signed the receipt and state title forms.

colpabar 4y ago
> "oh we just sold it" Damn. This is exactly what happened to me when I bought my current car a few years ago. I found it used on the dealer website, it had everything I wanted and had <20k miles. I setup an appointment to see it on a friday, called thursday night just to make sure, "oh we just sold it, but we have a new one you can look at." I never even considered that they could just be lying. Oh well, lesson learned I guess. It's paid off now, but I am looking at upgrading, and I'm gonna assume everything anyone at the dealership says is a lie until I see paperwork.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Get back at them by going through the whole process, but right when they want to sign the actual paperwork, get up and leave. Tease them by getting so close to a deal, and then just bounce. Tell them you've changed your mind, fake a text/call requiring you now, etc. The will fall over themselves to not let the sale slip away with the price of the car suddenly able to come down to make it happen.

mistrial9 4y ago

andrew_ 4y ago

I was looking at purchasing a newer, used Land Rover a few months back from a Land Rover dealership (one that had a sterling reputation prior to a buy out). The sheet of non-negotiable fees was rolled out, which raised the price nearly $5,000. The $1895 for "Executive Concierge Fee" blew my mind, consisting of your basic $150 detail and a slew of additional items that one could buy and apply from any Pep Boys for under $100. Funny enough, when I got up to walk away I was asked if I would buy the vehicle that day if some of those $5,000 of "non-negotiable" fees were removed. I contacted the sales manager to tell him why I'd never be back. They couldn't care less. It must mean that enough people fall for these scam fees or don't pay attention to the line items that they can afford to not care. It looks like that rule would address this, and I'm for it.

quickthrowman 4y ago
You were interested in buying a used Land Rover, of course they’re going to try and soak you. People that are good with money generally don’t buy used Land Rovers.
- andrew_ 4y ago
  I have a used Land Rover, got a great price on it, and it's been a very solid vehicle for my needs. Your assertion is dripping with bias, overly generalized, stereotyping, and is incredibly ignorant.
  - guardiangod 4y ago
    When I was an intern a fellow intern got a 4 year old Land Rover. In the next 6 months he had to - Check engine light on. Checked multiple time. Never went away - Replace engine gasket - replace rear diff - replace rear axle (did the dealership broke this?) The forth one happened while he was returning from the manufacturer dealership for the 3rd issue, about half way to our town (about 90km left) The worst thing was, he actually bought warranty from the car dealership, but they managed to weasel out every single item. Pardon me if I am on the grandparent's side.

sagarun 4y ago

One of the chair dissented on these rules: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/P204800MotorVehicleNPRMWilsonStatement.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/P204800MotorVeh... Says these rules will stifle innovation and some car makers are doing direct sales so rule is not really needed.

nerdponx 4y ago
"Some people are not doing it anymore" is a ridiculous reason to not-ban something that absolutely should be banned.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  We don't need to make murder illegal anymore because some people are not doing it.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
No surprise based on the bio. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_S._Wilson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_S._Wilson

gamblor956 4y ago

Some carmakers are dealing with this directly. Subaru, for example, requires dealers to sell cars at MSRP...and does not allow dealers to mandate "mandatory" add-ons like extended warranties or "paint protection packages." Dealers which violate these rules get their dealer allotments reduced for desirable models/trims. (In the LA area, a dealer that was adding a mandatory $3000 protection package to certain 2022 Outback trims saw its dealer allotments quartered for those trims for the 2023 model year.)

to11mtm 4y ago
> Subaru, for example, requires dealers to sell cars at MSRP I'm glad they do that now. I know one dealer local to me tried to pull a markup on me... 10 years ago (when it was easy to find another dealer that was able to give me invoice due to a TrueCar thing.) I will say, one of the best things about Saturn was No-Haggle, consistent pricing. As relatively pleasant as the dealer I bought my WRX from was, it was still a pretty big 'jolt' compared to my previous experiences with Saturn.

anm89 4y ago

If we could redirect our populism away from aggressive handouts and towards consumer protections, that could be a party I'd consider supporting. This is a great move.

encryptluks2 4y ago

How about ban mandatory arbitration when buying a new car. Now that would actually cause dealerships to think twice before screwing over customers.

kevincox 4y ago

I think there should be a generic rule for everything that the advertised price is something that you can actually pay and get the product. No $50 concert tickets with $75 of fees, advertising that for less than $125 should be illegal. Of course I'm sure people will get creative with "optional" upsells, the $50 ticket is in the building but highly obstructed, but I think this is at least a huge step forward.

grecy 4y ago
Australia has extremely strong consumer protections on things like this. It's really nice.
silvestrov 4y ago
Nederlands has this rule in the law (as far as I know). You cannot sell a $50 ticket with a surprise $10 fee. The product you sell must be fully usable at the advertised price.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
  I wonder how AirBnB gets around this. If you search for listings in The Netherlands you can see the service and cleaning fee not being added in on the map view, which seems like it’s a violation of the law you speak of.
  - zihotki 4y ago
    They can apply it only for people either visiting from NL, or having their billing address in NL, or something like that.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
      I just went to airbnb.nl with my NL VPN active (I’m a US resident that was previously searching from airbnb.com) and sure enough the map prices show the actual price with all taxes and fees included when you visit airbnb.nl with a Dutch VPN active, unlike the American site. It also shows the price with all fees included if you visit airbnb.nl from the United States with no VPN active. Interestingly, if you visit with the Dutch VPN active but instead on airbnb.com, you also see the price with everything included on the map regardless of whether the map search you are doing is in the NL or the USA. But if you visit airbnb.com from the USA without VPN and search for a destination in NL (or USA, but that might be obvious) you don’t get prices with fees included. So it appears that AirBnB checks for either originating IP in NL or visiting via airbnb.nl to determine the behavior as of the time of this post. This is actually a great trick for me to learn as a States resident for when I want to browse AirBnB’s - I can just turn on my Dutch VPN for actual, non bullshit pricing on the map.

alphanumeric0 4y ago

Today, car ownership is a horrible value proposition. The car lobby has been all too successful in making America car-centric, which is a shame, because cars are great, but they aren't the only form of transportation out there. I've been car-free for at least five years. To be fair, I live in a city that is friendly towards alternate transportation. I bike or use my own electric scooter. I plan ahead and book a rental when I know I'll need a car. So far it's been cheaper than owning, and has saved me thousands of dollars. It's these sorts of shenanigans that I'm glad I don't have to deal with. Paying outrageous amounts for insurance is another. Not to mention parking headaches, the constant threat of high-speed, potentially fatal, accidents, or expensive maintenance.

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
> I live in a city that is friendly towards alternate transportation Good for you. Most of us don't; that's why we buy cars.
notch656a 4y ago
>Today, car ownership is a horrible value proposition Owning a car was literally the only asset I had that appreciated from 2020-2022. Everything else got inflated to hell or burst in the stock crash. My new vehicle was worth more with 20k on the dash than before I drove it off the lot.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  it's completely worthless value though, you can sell the car now... and then what? buy a car that's also appreciated a similar amount if you continue using the car, the price will come back down before end of life
  - notch656a 4y ago
    I could say that about literally anything. A house, a shoe, a radio, a soldering iron, a phone. Everything goes to zero sooner or later. My retirement plan includes selling off the car and moving to south east asia where I'll buy a 125cc moped, so I definitely plan to "cash out" sooner or later and not for another car.

DisjointedHunt 4y ago

When I first came to America, I realized the biggest myth is that people believe it is a capitalist nation with free markets. It is not. Not by a long shot. From buying a car to getting medical treatment, America has a very UNIQUE template of the way people think, talk, behave and deal with each industry that is radically different from the rest of the world. “Healthcare”?: They actually mean “Insurance”. The term has nothing to do with medicine, treatment, personal care or well being, but simply refers to this massive series of legislation over the decades that has enshrined government protection against competition in free markets leading to the extreme inefficiencies driving up prices. “Dealerships”?: They mean Govt protected localized monopolies with the mandate to abuse said market power against any known free market ideal. Energy Markets: Same story. Try building a transmission line, nuclear plant or any energy infrastructure in America and you’ll be lucky if you only go bankrupt and lose everything financially. Entities with the innovative courage to attempt such projects have terrible outcomes. “Housing”: This continues to amaze me with how selective, arbitrary, corrupt and inefficient permits, zoning and all the other functions run by local governments actually are. Take a region as prominent as the SF Bay Area and regardless of your position, everyone likely has a strong opinion on inefficiencies in the market and how they don’t really need to persist in a free market. In short, the biggest opportunity right now is a technological revolution in government and a challenge to the traditional form of local government that has proven so ineffective in a highly networked society. This will never happen though because of the inherent self interest of the present structure in keeping things the way they are.

inspector-g 4y ago

One thing that still confuses me is that brokers/agents are very common, or practically a requirement, in other areas but not at all in vehicle shopping. I would definitely pay a handsome fee to a broker to just absorb all the shopping/haggling pain, to cut through all the BS, on my behalf. I have tried this once with one of the very few brokers I could find, and it was definitely better but it was obvious there were several areas of the experience that could be massively improved. I chalked it up at the time to a lack of competition between brokers, since there really aren’t many.

resoluteteeth 4y ago
Rather then adding brokers, wouldn't it make more sense to just get rid of dealers and have cars sold at fixed prices?

arwhatever 4y ago

A common complaint is that these (U.S) regulatory agencies are too removed from the legislative/democratic process. But a quick search for “FTC” suggests this might be an agency I’m interested in supporting. But how does one go about doing so? How does one go about providing some sort of support to a one-or-more level removed regulatory agency?