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Is there more to this story? I'm honestly pretty shocked by this. The college basically got into hot water for having its Dean show up at a protest holding a fl

Is there more to this story? I'm honestly pretty shocked by this. The college basically got into hot water for having its Dean show up at a protest holding a flyer.

jononomo 4y ago
Oberlin drove the bakery out of business while knowing full well that the bakery did nothing wrong. The kid that got caught shoplifting plead guilty and he also outright stated that racism was not involved.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  This doesn't necessarily go against your point, but I have seen far too many innocent people coerced into pleading guilty to actually believe someone is guilty based on a guilty plea.
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    Sure, that happens. But it's most likely when the accused has too few resources to win at trial. Here the college was clearly in their corner. Why would they plead guilty and say racism was no part of it? Their statements seems very credible under the circumstances.
    - alsaaro 4y ago
      The kids accused of shoplifting were charged with felonies and eventually plead down to misdemeanors. Race is always a factor in America, especially its criminal justice system, are the students confessions genuine contrition or motivated by fear of disproportionate punishment? A question impossible to answer.
      - kthejoker2 4y ago
        Their guilt was definitely not in question. They were arrested by the cops in the middle of the act of assaulting the employee (kicking him while he was on the ground) and with the shoplifted property on their possession. A conviction was already assured, the guilty plea was an extremely rational move, whether out of contrition or fear.
    - CrazyStat 4y ago
      The shoplifter is also a Phillips Andover grad--yes, that Phillips Andover, the one that's often ranked #1 prep school in the nation and costs $50k/year in tuition.
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    True, but if you're a large institution making a public statement (this could be interpreted broadly) against a small business, you better be sure it's true. It's especially not worth it when the shoplifter was trying to use a fake ID.
  - nradov 4y ago
    This was a civil trial, not criminal. The college never plead guilty. They were found liable. The college had competent legal representation and there was no coercion.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      Gp wasn't talking about the college but the shoplifter, who was a criminal defendant and whose legal representation we have no knowledge of.
- tptacek 4y ago
  That's an uncharitable summary. This is an unusually huge defamation award, and I support it: Oberlin richly deserved the outcome they had in court. But the story you're telling is not accurate. School administrators at Oberlin pretty clearly believed that Gibson's racially profiled students and victimized lower-income non-white students. And, here's the important thing about that: to some extent, Oberlin is entitled to believe that and say so, regardless of what the "facts" are. That's because, to an extent, those are subjective statements, and defamation consists of false statements of fact. Where Oberlin screwed up royally was in recklessly presenting facts that supported their preconceived (and constitutionally protected) notions about Gibson's moral failings. But it's easy to see how someone could do that: you see it in HN arguments every day, if not every hour. People believe things that confirm the rest of their beliefs. It turns out, if you casually do that while running a university, you can end up costing your university tens of millions of dollars. And rightly so. But the story you want to tell, about Oberlin's administrators simply manufacturing a story about Gibson's for the hell of it --- no, that's almost certainly not what happened.
  - jononomo 4y ago
    First, this guy was not a lower-income student -- he had attended a $50k/year private high school. Second, Oberlin did not believe that Gibson's racially profiled students. Third, the kids not only shoplifted, they then kicked and beat the fellow who tried to chase them and stop them from shoplifting.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I agree with your first statement. I disagree with your second. I agree with your third statement. None of this changes anything I said.
      - jononomo 4y ago
        You are wrong to disagree with my second statement.
        4y ago
at_a_remove 4y ago
Yes, there's quite a bit more.
bpodgursky 4y ago
> Gibson’s also presented testimony that Oberlin had stopped ordering from the bakery but had offered to restore its business if charges were dropped against the three students or if the bakery gave students accused of shoplifting special treatment, which it refused to do It's a lot more than that.
jibe 4y ago
Yes, there is much more to the story. This is going to be one sided, but this is a faq from the plantiffs with plenty of examples of what the dean was doing; far far beyond just handing out flyers. https://www.lawlion.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UPDATED-FAQs-re-Gibsons-Bakery-v.-Oberlin-College.pdf https://www.lawlion.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UPDATED-F...
- markdog12 4y ago
  Some more interesting context from your link: When the author anonymously interviewed students, he gathered the following responses: • “I totally have [taken things from a store downtown without paying for it]. I think I’ve stolen from Gibson’s twice. I took a packet of those noodles that come in boxes… It wasn’t expensive and I felt like it. I just preferred not paying for it, but I could have.” • A female student admitted that she has stolen many things from Gibson’s Bakery and Ben Franklin’s. “I took a wine bottle. I had a large winter jacket and I put the bottle in the lining and I walked right out.” And, “I took pens from Ben Franklin because individually the pens cost $4 and I thought it was a racket.” • “Probably [I have stolen from downtown] but let me think about it…yeah, no, I do that all the time.” The same student then talked about how they stole a one-hundred-dollar ($100) bottle of wine from Gibson’s Bakery. • “I have stolen from Gibson’s, Kim’s, IGA. I took some dumb stuff. From Gibson’s I took some steak knives for an avocado that I also stole. I was really drunk and that was really bad.” • “I think I’ve taken candy and just small shit from Ben Franklin’s and the Oberlin Market.” • “[I have taken] a few pens from Ben Franklin over the years… they’re hard to resist.” • One said she’s never paid for Chapstick while at Oberlin for four years. • The author: “I myself have stolen from the very people I’ve interviewed for this story. I could have paid for the items easily, but I chose to steal them instead.” This student and/or institutional attitude was supported by the statistics provided from the Oberlin Police Department of thefts at Gibson’s Bakery from January 1, 2011 to November 14, 2016. These statistics show that of the 40 adults arrested for theft during that time period, 33 of those adults (82.5%) were Oberlin College students.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    They should do like Saudi Arabia and cut off their hands.
gapplebees 4y ago
googlryas 4y ago
That's what you would take away if you read Oberlin's take on the matter: https://www.oberlin.edu/news-and-events/bakery-litigation/10-key-facts https://www.oberlin.edu/news-and-events/bakery-litigation/10... However, they don't mention any of the emails/texts that came out between administrators for some reason, which is what put the nail in the coffin for Oberlin. If you read the FAQ by the prosecution, you'll see that almost all of the fun details are in the private communications between administrators, not in what they publicly did: https://www.lawlion.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UPDATED-FAQs-re-Gibsons-Bakery-v.-Oberlin-College.pdf https://www.lawlion.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UPDATED-F... How Meredith Raimondo has a job lined up outside of Oberlin is beyond me. I doubt she's actually learned a lesson, especially because she isn't bearing any individual culpability, and I have to imagine she will just be a little bit more discreet while planning smear campaigns and tortious interference against family businesses.
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >However, they don't mention any of the emails/texts that came out between administrators for some reason, which is what put the nail in the coffin for Oberlin. Yes, I was "amused" to see Oberlin's FAQ on the case (<https://www.oberlin.edu/news-and-events/bakery-litigation/faq https://www.oberlin.edu/news-and-events/bakery-litigation/fa...>) describe Raimondo's texts as >Yes. Some senior administrators and faculty did use unprofessional language in a few text messages and emails well after the protest. Appropriate disciplinary action was taken in response to this behavior. I doubt that.
nullc 4y ago
> The college basically got into hot water for having its Dean show up at a protest holding a flyer. Oh wow, no-- go read the the court docs. Particularly what they obtained in discovery. Or just check out the appeals decision, which gives an okay summary (though it skips some of the schools wrongdoing that wasn't disputed): https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/9/2022/2022-Ohio-1079.pdf https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/9/2022/2022-O... They got in hot water because a dean was distributing flyers full of falsehoods, because the school posted in their buildings and refused to remove a resolution repeating the same falsehoods, because -- even knowing the claims were false they refused to issue any kind of retraction or reversing statement (because they thought doing so would anger the students), instead trying to extract a promise to not report shoplifters to the police anymore, and then the school barred one of their vendors from doing business with the bakery, causing a significant financial damage to it. One could excuse the school for making some initial errors in judgement, but they aggressively refused to correct them even after the errors were abundantly clear. Their actual award was much larger but the punitive damages were limited by damage caps to twice the compensatory damages -- too bad, because given Oberlin's wealth the ultimate cost is comparatively insignificant compared to the magnitude of their gross and sustained misconduct.

Is there more to this story? I'm honestly pretty shocked by this. The college basically got into hot water for having its Dean show up at a protest holding a flyer.

jononomo 4y ago

Oberlin drove the bakery out of business while knowing full well that the bakery did nothing wrong. The kid that got caught shoplifting plead guilty and he also outright stated that racism was not involved.

jjeaff 4y ago
This doesn't necessarily go against your point, but I have seen far too many innocent people coerced into pleading guilty to actually believe someone is guilty based on a guilty plea.
- crackercrews 4y ago
  Sure, that happens. But it's most likely when the accused has too few resources to win at trial. Here the college was clearly in their corner. Why would they plead guilty and say racism was no part of it? Their statements seems very credible under the circumstances.
  - alsaaro 4y ago
    The kids accused of shoplifting were charged with felonies and eventually plead down to misdemeanors. Race is always a factor in America, especially its criminal justice system, are the students confessions genuine contrition or motivated by fear of disproportionate punishment? A question impossible to answer.
    - kthejoker2 4y ago
      Their guilt was definitely not in question. They were arrested by the cops in the middle of the act of assaulting the employee (kicking him while he was on the ground) and with the shoplifted property on their possession. A conviction was already assured, the guilty plea was an extremely rational move, whether out of contrition or fear.
  - CrazyStat 4y ago
    The shoplifter is also a Phillips Andover grad--yes, that Phillips Andover, the one that's often ranked #1 prep school in the nation and costs $50k/year in tuition.
- dehrmann 4y ago
  True, but if you're a large institution making a public statement (this could be interpreted broadly) against a small business, you better be sure it's true. It's especially not worth it when the shoplifter was trying to use a fake ID.
- nradov 4y ago
  This was a civil trial, not criminal. The college never plead guilty. They were found liable. The college had competent legal representation and there was no coercion.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    Gp wasn't talking about the college but the shoplifter, who was a criminal defendant and whose legal representation we have no knowledge of.
tptacek 4y ago
That's an uncharitable summary. This is an unusually huge defamation award, and I support it: Oberlin richly deserved the outcome they had in court. But the story you're telling is not accurate. School administrators at Oberlin pretty clearly believed that Gibson's racially profiled students and victimized lower-income non-white students. And, here's the important thing about that: to some extent, Oberlin is entitled to believe that and say so, regardless of what the "facts" are. That's because, to an extent, those are subjective statements, and defamation consists of false statements of fact. Where Oberlin screwed up royally was in recklessly presenting facts that supported their preconceived (and constitutionally protected) notions about Gibson's moral failings. But it's easy to see how someone could do that: you see it in HN arguments every day, if not every hour. People believe things that confirm the rest of their beliefs. It turns out, if you casually do that while running a university, you can end up costing your university tens of millions of dollars. And rightly so. But the story you want to tell, about Oberlin's administrators simply manufacturing a story about Gibson's for the hell of it --- no, that's almost certainly not what happened.
- jononomo 4y ago
  First, this guy was not a lower-income student -- he had attended a $50k/year private high school. Second, Oberlin did not believe that Gibson's racially profiled students. Third, the kids not only shoplifted, they then kicked and beat the fellow who tried to chase them and stop them from shoplifting.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I agree with your first statement. I disagree with your second. I agree with your third statement. None of this changes anything I said.
    - jononomo 4y ago
      You are wrong to disagree with my second statement.
      - 4y ago

at_a_remove 4y ago

Yes, there's quite a bit more.

bpodgursky 4y ago

> Gibson’s also presented testimony that Oberlin had stopped ordering from the bakery but had offered to restore its business if charges were dropped against the three students or if the bakery gave students accused of shoplifting special treatment, which it refused to do It's a lot more than that.

jibe 4y ago

Yes, there is much more to the story. This is going to be one sided, but this is a faq from the plantiffs with plenty of examples of what the dean was doing; far far beyond just handing out flyers. https://www.lawlion.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UPDATED-FAQs-re-Gibsons-Bakery-v.-Oberlin-College.pdf https://www.lawlion.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UPDATED-F...

markdog12 4y ago
Some more interesting context from your link: When the author anonymously interviewed students, he gathered the following responses: • “I totally have [taken things from a store downtown without paying for it]. I think I’ve stolen from Gibson’s twice. I took a packet of those noodles that come in boxes… It wasn’t expensive and I felt like it. I just preferred not paying for it, but I could have.” • A female student admitted that she has stolen many things from Gibson’s Bakery and Ben Franklin’s. “I took a wine bottle. I had a large winter jacket and I put the bottle in the lining and I walked right out.” And, “I took pens from Ben Franklin because individually the pens cost $4 and I thought it was a racket.” • “Probably [I have stolen from downtown] but let me think about it…yeah, no, I do that all the time.” The same student then talked about how they stole a one-hundred-dollar ($100) bottle of wine from Gibson’s Bakery. • “I have stolen from Gibson’s, Kim’s, IGA. I took some dumb stuff. From Gibson’s I took some steak knives for an avocado that I also stole. I was really drunk and that was really bad.” • “I think I’ve taken candy and just small shit from Ben Franklin’s and the Oberlin Market.” • “[I have taken] a few pens from Ben Franklin over the years… they’re hard to resist.” • One said she’s never paid for Chapstick while at Oberlin for four years. • The author: “I myself have stolen from the very people I’ve interviewed for this story. I could have paid for the items easily, but I chose to steal them instead.” This student and/or institutional attitude was supported by the statistics provided from the Oberlin Police Department of thefts at Gibson’s Bakery from January 1, 2011 to November 14, 2016. These statistics show that of the 40 adults arrested for theft during that time period, 33 of those adults (82.5%) were Oberlin College students.
- rayiner 4y ago
  They should do like Saudi Arabia and cut off their hands.

gapplebees 4y ago

googlryas 4y ago

That's what you would take away if you read Oberlin's take on the matter: https://www.oberlin.edu/news-and-events/bakery-litigation/10-key-facts https://www.oberlin.edu/news-and-events/bakery-litigation/10... However, they don't mention any of the emails/texts that came out between administrators for some reason, which is what put the nail in the coffin for Oberlin. If you read the FAQ by the prosecution, you'll see that almost all of the fun details are in the private communications between administrators, not in what they publicly did: https://www.lawlion.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UPDATED-FAQs-re-Gibsons-Bakery-v.-Oberlin-College.pdf https://www.lawlion.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UPDATED-F... How Meredith Raimondo has a job lined up outside of Oberlin is beyond me. I doubt she's actually learned a lesson, especially because she isn't bearing any individual culpability, and I have to imagine she will just be a little bit more discreet while planning smear campaigns and tortious interference against family businesses.

TMWNN 4y ago
>However, they don't mention any of the emails/texts that came out between administrators for some reason, which is what put the nail in the coffin for Oberlin. Yes, I was "amused" to see Oberlin's FAQ on the case (<https://www.oberlin.edu/news-and-events/bakery-litigation/faq https://www.oberlin.edu/news-and-events/bakery-litigation/fa...>) describe Raimondo's texts as >Yes. Some senior administrators and faculty did use unprofessional language in a few text messages and emails well after the protest. Appropriate disciplinary action was taken in response to this behavior. I doubt that.

nullc 4y ago

> The college basically got into hot water for having its Dean show up at a protest holding a flyer. Oh wow, no-- go read the the court docs. Particularly what they obtained in discovery. Or just check out the appeals decision, which gives an okay summary (though it skips some of the schools wrongdoing that wasn't disputed): https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/9/2022/2022-Ohio-1079.pdf https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/9/2022/2022-O... They got in hot water because a dean was distributing flyers full of falsehoods, because the school posted in their buildings and refused to remove a resolution repeating the same falsehoods, because -- even knowing the claims were false they refused to issue any kind of retraction or reversing statement (because they thought doing so would anger the students), instead trying to extract a promise to not report shoplifters to the police anymore, and then the school barred one of their vendors from doing business with the bakery, causing a significant financial damage to it. One could excuse the school for making some initial errors in judgement, but they aggressively refused to correct them even after the errors were abundantly clear. Their actual award was much larger but the punitive damages were limited by damage caps to twice the compensatory damages -- too bad, because given Oberlin's wealth the ultimate cost is comparatively insignificant compared to the magnitude of their gross and sustained misconduct.