7 ms·

If the United States had universal healthcare and education wasn't brutally expensive then more people could justify being entrepreneurial. You can't have soci

If the United States had universal healthcare and education wasn't brutally expensive then more people could justify being entrepreneurial. You can't have society in which almost all wealth flows upwards and normal people are comfortable taking business risk. Want start-ups? Raise taxes on the wealthiest of us, increase social services and safety nets and access to education. If people feel safe, they'll take more risks. Make it so people don't have to risk their kids' futures on their idea. Also maybe put some protections in place so massive incumbents can't just stomp potential competitors and squash innovation...

californical 4y ago
> Want start-ups? Raise taxes on the wealthiest of us, increase social services and safety nets and access to education. If people feel safe, they'll take more risks. Make it so people don't have to risk their kids' futures on their idea. Many countries have done this — do you have any examples of one of them becoming more entrepreneurial? Because I don’t think we can just assume it to be true. Just because people said that was their biggest barrier to starting a business doesn’t make it true. And I say that as someone who generally supports universal healthcare/insurance. People make up tons of reasons for not making a huge change in their life (like founding a company): “if only X then I’d finally do Y”. But if you fix X, they’ll find some new reason that they can’t do it.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I don't have a well researched answer, but I think Israel might be a possibility.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  >Many countries have done this — do you have any examples of one of them becoming more entrepreneurial? Because I don’t think we can just assume it to be true. Also needed is a consistent explanation that explains all the other countries doing this which have nonetheless failed to become more entrepreneurial.
houstonn 4y ago
In theory, but you'd need a competent government to make sure they don't create new problems or exacerbate the problem. Over the last decade, an incredible sum of money has been poured into the homelessness problem. We now have the homeless industrial complex, which feeds the very problem it was supposed to solve. It requires perpetual homelessness in the same way that the military industrial complex requires perpetual war. As a result, we have more homelessness, not less! Or examine the student loan crisis. Because the government guarantees the loans, loans are made without consideration for whether students will ever be able to repay them. There is no cost benefit analysis or return on investment. It's just take the loan and maybe get a degree, any degree. In addition, the government made it impossible to discharge these loans in bankruptcy. In effect it's a wealth transfer program to college administrators and a big fuck you to taxpayers and vulnerable students. All under the guise of helping people.
- malfist 4y ago
  Are you really arguing that we shouldn't tax the rich because there's homeless people?
  - golergka 4y ago
  - houstonn 4y ago
    Are you really proposing that we should take even more money out of the productive economy to continue worsening the homeless problem? The money has created an administrative industry that is incentivized toward self preservation and growth. It doesn't decrease the number of homeless or genuinely improve their station. It literally exacerbates the problem. Which has been the case for at least the last decade when you examine the data and the on ground reality of the situation. All I'm pointing out is that you must repair the government first so it's actually solving problems and not making them worse.
wahnfrieden 4y ago
"UBI Helps People Be More Productive And Work More, Study Claims" https://www.econotimes.com/UBI-Helps-People-Be-More-Productive-And-Work-More-Study-Claims-1156627 https://www.econotimes.com/UBI-Helps-People-Be-More-Producti... "Universal Basic Income does not Reduce Worker Productivity, Study Finds" https://www.technology.org/2021/01/19/universal-basic-income-does-not-reduce-worker-productivity-study-finds/ https://www.technology.org/2021/01/19/universal-basic-income...
golergka 4y ago
> If the United States had universal healthcare and education wasn't brutally expensive then more people could justify being entrepreneurial Doesn't it strike you as odd then, that US is unique among first-world countries at (1) not having a safety net like universal healthcare and (2) being by far, almost the most entrepreneurial country in the world? (May be behind Israel and/or Singapore, but it's a whole other topic anyway). I mean, if your assumption was right, then European countries like France or Germany would be homes of Silicon Valley, but it's the other way around.
- drewcoo 4y ago
  > Doesn't it strike you as odd then No. Conditions were right to get us to here. Changing conditions slightly can get us past here. No one is claiming we should be just like strawman country FOO, which is business-hostile.
tristor 4y ago
All of that sounds good in theory and I support these policies, but empirically these policies don't lead to the results you believe that they do. The US is massively more entrepreneurial than any other country, and it has none of these things. The countries that do, are not only significantly less entrepreneurial, but when people are entrepreneurial there are often confounded by those systems. What seems to empirically be true is that easy access to capital is the primary driver for entrepreneurship, and easy access to capital is mostly enabled by a combination of fiscal policy and wealthy individuals and institutions without better investment opportunities. Easy access to capital is the primary driving force behind entrepreneurship in the West, and particularly in the US, and it seems being the wealthiest country in the world is a huge driver on its own for this.
- sinenomine 4y ago
  I agree with the take on capital access as the foundation of entrepreneurship, especially its modern, VC-backed incarnation (poor bootstrapped startups, with cards stacked against them - and even if they win - no serious media coverage) ... yet to play a bit of devil's advocate, are wealthy individuals as important in providing the capital? Surely, by the sheer monetary volume, the fiscal policy component you mention will overshadow any private initiative, and it is this component which makes the US an outstanding location? If this is true, progressive tax system wouldn't interfere with the entrepreneurship much, while the QE-driven investment continues to work as intended.
- Melatonic 4y ago
  The US is really a unique case even now - so many factors to consider. If I had to guess I would say that the US leads the entrepreneurial space for many reasons other than healthcare but that does not mean universal healthcare would make it even more entrepreneurial. More than anything, however, I think those social safety nets would encourage people to consider career changes more (like if they are very dissatisfied with their current one) and job movement between existing businesses.
nonethewiser 4y ago
There is a much bigger startup culture in the US than Europe though.
gfgfdsgdfg 4y ago
This is flawed because Europe has done this and they aren't anywhere close America's entrepreneurs.
sharadov 4y ago
If that was the case Europe would have led the world in entrepreneurship, not the US.
simonw 4y ago
I'm always baffled at people who are both pro-entrepreneurship and anti-universal-healthcare at the same time. What do they thing is the number one reason most people won't start their own business?
- pdonis 4y ago
  > What do they thing is the number one reason most people won't start their own business? That's obvious: the number one reason most people won't start their own business is that most new businesses fail. So most people won't try it, since they expect they will fail and don't want to go through trying and failing. Only people who are outliers, often extreme outliers, in their tolerance for failure or their belief that they are exceptional and won't fail (or most likely both) will try it.
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    Have you talked to anyone over the age of say 25 about why they’re not starting a company? It’s not “it’s hard and I might fail.” I only ever hear: I have loved ones whose health, education, and financial security I can’t put at risk. This problem exists even if you have complete certainty you’ll succeed, because en route to that certain success, your loved ones are still at immense risk.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      that doesn't make sense. if there is risk then i can't possibly have complete certainty that i'll succeed. "i can't put my family at risk" is exactly the same as "i might fail"
      - highwaylights 4y ago
        It’s not even remotely the same. I might fail to get a hole-in-one at mini golf, but the stakes of trying are pretty much zero. Anyone who either has no dependents or comes from enough money that it doesn’t matter can’t begin to relate to this.
rr888 4y ago
That is what you think but in the real world it doesn't seem to work. Europe (and other developed countries) have the big social safety net and they're less entrepreneurial. I'm not sure why, perhaps its the egalitarian nature means no one wants to be richer than anyone else? Or maybe its lack of desperate workers.
- gorjusborg 4y ago
  My totally off-the-cuff guess is that there is no causal link between social safety nets (like government provided health care) and a lower rate of entrepreneurship. If there is a correlation, I'm guessing it is that governments that take active responsibility for the wellbeing of their citizens also institute regulations which may make starting businesses more difficult. In other words, active governments are more active in general, not just limited to the safety net.
- kaon123 4y ago
  As a european my answer is that throughout my entire upbringing, I've been taught to aspire to "just landing a job". Only in the second half of my twenties did I discover the "coolness" of being an entrepreneur. I am planning to start my own business soon, but I had to invent the dream myself. My observation is that in American culture, entrepreneurs are much more celebrated as heroes, in contrast to capitalist profiteurs.
  - badpun 4y ago
    Yep, that. In the US, risk-taking, being "the greatest", achieving success etc. are widely held as things to aspire to. I don't think it's great for people's mental health, but it produces a killer economy. Whereas in Europe, when someone thinks or talks like that, it's perceived as a bit off-putting. We're content here with relatively modest lifes and shooting for the stars is seen as foolish.
- pjc50 4y ago
  I'm not sure this holds up under close examination; SV is kind of unique in how entrepreneurial it is. But there's also the "angel investor" effects; in Europe far too many wealthy people are content to simply be landlords rather than invest in riskier things like actual businesses. It's also very hard to generalise across Europe, which has a more diverse set of rules and business cultures than the US does. But given a magic wand to make changes I would definitely introduce "de minimis" clauses in a whole load of business regulations. The rules for megacorps can afford to be complicated, the rules for small businesses cannot.

californical 4y ago

> Want start-ups? Raise taxes on the wealthiest of us, increase social services and safety nets and access to education. If people feel safe, they'll take more risks. Make it so people don't have to risk their kids' futures on their idea. Many countries have done this — do you have any examples of one of them becoming more entrepreneurial? Because I don’t think we can just assume it to be true. Just because people said that was their biggest barrier to starting a business doesn’t make it true. And I say that as someone who generally supports universal healthcare/insurance. People make up tons of reasons for not making a huge change in their life (like founding a company): “if only X then I’d finally do Y”. But if you fix X, they’ll find some new reason that they can’t do it.

hotpotamus 4y ago
I don't have a well researched answer, but I think Israel might be a possibility.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
QuarterReptile 4y ago
>Many countries have done this — do you have any examples of one of them becoming more entrepreneurial? Because I don’t think we can just assume it to be true. Also needed is a consistent explanation that explains all the other countries doing this which have nonetheless failed to become more entrepreneurial.

houstonn 4y ago

In theory, but you'd need a competent government to make sure they don't create new problems or exacerbate the problem. Over the last decade, an incredible sum of money has been poured into the homelessness problem. We now have the homeless industrial complex, which feeds the very problem it was supposed to solve. It requires perpetual homelessness in the same way that the military industrial complex requires perpetual war. As a result, we have more homelessness, not less! Or examine the student loan crisis. Because the government guarantees the loans, loans are made without consideration for whether students will ever be able to repay them. There is no cost benefit analysis or return on investment. It's just take the loan and maybe get a degree, any degree. In addition, the government made it impossible to discharge these loans in bankruptcy. In effect it's a wealth transfer program to college administrators and a big fuck you to taxpayers and vulnerable students. All under the guise of helping people.

malfist 4y ago
Are you really arguing that we shouldn't tax the rich because there's homeless people?
- golergka 4y ago
- houstonn 4y ago
  Are you really proposing that we should take even more money out of the productive economy to continue worsening the homeless problem? The money has created an administrative industry that is incentivized toward self preservation and growth. It doesn't decrease the number of homeless or genuinely improve their station. It literally exacerbates the problem. Which has been the case for at least the last decade when you examine the data and the on ground reality of the situation. All I'm pointing out is that you must repair the government first so it's actually solving problems and not making them worse.

wahnfrieden 4y ago

"UBI Helps People Be More Productive And Work More, Study Claims" https://www.econotimes.com/UBI-Helps-People-Be-More-Productive-And-Work-More-Study-Claims-1156627 https://www.econotimes.com/UBI-Helps-People-Be-More-Producti... "Universal Basic Income does not Reduce Worker Productivity, Study Finds" https://www.technology.org/2021/01/19/universal-basic-income-does-not-reduce-worker-productivity-study-finds/ https://www.technology.org/2021/01/19/universal-basic-income...

golergka 4y ago

> If the United States had universal healthcare and education wasn't brutally expensive then more people could justify being entrepreneurial Doesn't it strike you as odd then, that US is unique among first-world countries at (1) not having a safety net like universal healthcare and (2) being by far, almost the most entrepreneurial country in the world? (May be behind Israel and/or Singapore, but it's a whole other topic anyway). I mean, if your assumption was right, then European countries like France or Germany would be homes of Silicon Valley, but it's the other way around.

drewcoo 4y ago
> Doesn't it strike you as odd then No. Conditions were right to get us to here. Changing conditions slightly can get us past here. No one is claiming we should be just like strawman country FOO, which is business-hostile.

tristor 4y ago

All of that sounds good in theory and I support these policies, but empirically these policies don't lead to the results you believe that they do. The US is massively more entrepreneurial than any other country, and it has none of these things. The countries that do, are not only significantly less entrepreneurial, but when people are entrepreneurial there are often confounded by those systems. What seems to empirically be true is that easy access to capital is the primary driver for entrepreneurship, and easy access to capital is mostly enabled by a combination of fiscal policy and wealthy individuals and institutions without better investment opportunities. Easy access to capital is the primary driving force behind entrepreneurship in the West, and particularly in the US, and it seems being the wealthiest country in the world is a huge driver on its own for this.

sinenomine 4y ago
I agree with the take on capital access as the foundation of entrepreneurship, especially its modern, VC-backed incarnation (poor bootstrapped startups, with cards stacked against them - and even if they win - no serious media coverage) ... yet to play a bit of devil's advocate, are wealthy individuals as important in providing the capital? Surely, by the sheer monetary volume, the fiscal policy component you mention will overshadow any private initiative, and it is this component which makes the US an outstanding location? If this is true, progressive tax system wouldn't interfere with the entrepreneurship much, while the QE-driven investment continues to work as intended.
Melatonic 4y ago
The US is really a unique case even now - so many factors to consider. If I had to guess I would say that the US leads the entrepreneurial space for many reasons other than healthcare but that does not mean universal healthcare would make it even more entrepreneurial. More than anything, however, I think those social safety nets would encourage people to consider career changes more (like if they are very dissatisfied with their current one) and job movement between existing businesses.

nonethewiser 4y ago

There is a much bigger startup culture in the US than Europe though.

gfgfdsgdfg 4y ago

This is flawed because Europe has done this and they aren't anywhere close America's entrepreneurs.

sharadov 4y ago

If that was the case Europe would have led the world in entrepreneurship, not the US.

simonw 4y ago

I'm always baffled at people who are both pro-entrepreneurship and anti-universal-healthcare at the same time. What do they thing is the number one reason most people won't start their own business?

pdonis 4y ago
> What do they thing is the number one reason most people won't start their own business? That's obvious: the number one reason most people won't start their own business is that most new businesses fail. So most people won't try it, since they expect they will fail and don't want to go through trying and failing. Only people who are outliers, often extreme outliers, in their tolerance for failure or their belief that they are exceptional and won't fail (or most likely both) will try it.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  Have you talked to anyone over the age of say 25 about why they’re not starting a company? It’s not “it’s hard and I might fail.” I only ever hear: I have loved ones whose health, education, and financial security I can’t put at risk. This problem exists even if you have complete certainty you’ll succeed, because en route to that certain success, your loved ones are still at immense risk.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    that doesn't make sense. if there is risk then i can't possibly have complete certainty that i'll succeed. "i can't put my family at risk" is exactly the same as "i might fail"
    - highwaylights 4y ago
      It’s not even remotely the same. I might fail to get a hole-in-one at mini golf, but the stakes of trying are pretty much zero. Anyone who either has no dependents or comes from enough money that it doesn’t matter can’t begin to relate to this.

rr888 4y ago

That is what you think but in the real world it doesn't seem to work. Europe (and other developed countries) have the big social safety net and they're less entrepreneurial. I'm not sure why, perhaps its the egalitarian nature means no one wants to be richer than anyone else? Or maybe its lack of desperate workers.

gorjusborg 4y ago
My totally off-the-cuff guess is that there is no causal link between social safety nets (like government provided health care) and a lower rate of entrepreneurship. If there is a correlation, I'm guessing it is that governments that take active responsibility for the wellbeing of their citizens also institute regulations which may make starting businesses more difficult. In other words, active governments are more active in general, not just limited to the safety net.
kaon123 4y ago
As a european my answer is that throughout my entire upbringing, I've been taught to aspire to "just landing a job". Only in the second half of my twenties did I discover the "coolness" of being an entrepreneur. I am planning to start my own business soon, but I had to invent the dream myself. My observation is that in American culture, entrepreneurs are much more celebrated as heroes, in contrast to capitalist profiteurs.
- badpun 4y ago
  Yep, that. In the US, risk-taking, being "the greatest", achieving success etc. are widely held as things to aspire to. I don't think it's great for people's mental health, but it produces a killer economy. Whereas in Europe, when someone thinks or talks like that, it's perceived as a bit off-putting. We're content here with relatively modest lifes and shooting for the stars is seen as foolish.
pjc50 4y ago
I'm not sure this holds up under close examination; SV is kind of unique in how entrepreneurial it is. But there's also the "angel investor" effects; in Europe far too many wealthy people are content to simply be landlords rather than invest in riskier things like actual businesses. It's also very hard to generalise across Europe, which has a more diverse set of rules and business cultures than the US does. But given a magic wand to make changes I would definitely introduce "de minimis" clauses in a whole load of business regulations. The rules for megacorps can afford to be complicated, the rules for small businesses cannot.