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Europe has the resources to produce cheap energy they just decided to not exploit it and import their energy from Russia and others.
by izend 4y ago
Europe has the resources to produce cheap energy they just decided to not exploit it and import their energy from Russia and others.
- bluetomcat 4y agoThe conflict between Russia and the west is deeply rooted on the hegemony of rampant worldwide liberalism which creates the problems I described. It's a meat grinder which consumes not only excessive energy but people's livelihoods, too. It is certainly not a world I would want my son to live in.
- goatlover 4y agoWhat's the better alternative?
- bluetomcat 4y agoA better alternative would be to have localised production and localised consumption of food and most basic goods. Stuff like not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea. People should feel more attached to their birthplace and the goal should be to develop their skills locally with one company preferably. Strong bonds with the local extended family which provides an additional safety net. If your region produces cars, you should be more likely (through education and culture) to become an automotive engineer and live there for your life. Trade for more advanced goods should still be there, but it would be more inter-region and less inter-global.
- nickpp 4y agoYou are describing a world of slaves. How many people are you willing to sacrifice to achieve you vision?
- rglullis 4y agoIs participating jn an Amish village "slavery"? An Israeli Kibutz?
- michaelmrose 4y agoAn amish village is a laughable anachronism that only exist in the context of a much larger whole that is antithetical to the very values and way of life it practices because no larger scale society so constructed could exist or compete with other societies practicing opposing values. It's not a healthier better way to build a city its a tiny park on a corner lot surrounded by pollution and traffic.
- rglullis 4y agoFirst: yes, it is healthier for those living inside the park, compared to the alternative. Second: the point is not to build "a larger scale" version of those societies, but actually to replicate the idea of localism in many different places. Less EU and one-world government and more independent nation-states, if you will. Third: you can oppose the lifestyle and philosophy all you want, but it still is not slavery.
- ericd 4y agoCan it survive against a larger-scale opponent that wants to take its resources, though? Without a friendly superpower enforcing peace with an extraordinarily powerful military, that is.
- rglullis 4y agoSwitzerland managed to do it for centuries already.
- michaelmrose 4y agoSwitzerland isn't by the prior analogy a park its a normal modern nation. It's a complete non sequitur
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea These isolated communities exist. Their quality of life is lower. But anyone can join them. From hippie communes to Amish communities, Luddism has a long tradition in modern society. (I’m ignoring the ethno-racial undertone in implying there can be an objective arbiter of what counts as true local cuisine and culture.)
- rglullis 4y agoThe point is not in absolute isolation, but trading away some optimization in global economic output for increased self-resiliency. Yes, overall we would be poorer on average, but we would a lot less likely to see catastrophic events and a bit more equity among members of the same community.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> point is not in absolute isolation, but trading away some optimization in global economic output for increased self-resiliency You’re arguing for something reasonable. The commenter I’m replying to quotes Dugin and alludes to something resembling a hermit kingdom. (Attachment to birthplace. Going into the local industry, skills be damned. Blood thicker than water and no “foreign” food.) This is a recipe for nationalistic poverty. North Korea and Russia are going down this path. They’ll be poor and uninfluential. But if makes them happy, as long as they keep it within their borders, it is difficult to advocate for a shift from outside.
- sahila 4y ago> North Korea and Russia are going down this path. While I'm not sure which side of the argument I stand on, I do think it's pointing out that even if certain societies / countries do do the things, they unfortunately bare of the costs of others' decisions. A third of Pakistan being flooded is more likely a consequence of the West's energy usage and not due to their own doing. So it's a global effort to make these changes or limited benefits are seen.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ericd 4y agoGod, I’m glad I wasn’t born in the designated car production region, what a horrible thing to be forced to devote my life to.
- nradov 4y agoYou appear to be ignorant of basic economics such as Ricardo's law of comparative advantage. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.as... What you have proposed is worse than what we have in every way. Transporting food and basic foods over long distances is cheap and very energy efficient. In fact it's more efficient than having a bunch of tiny factories in every city. People shouldn't be stuck living their whole lives in one place working for one company making shitty cloth or whatever.
- rglullis 4y agoIt is cheaper, but less robust. One ship blocking the Suez Canal means that billions of people are not able to get their food and medicine on time, because everyone is too specialized to do anything that is not a desk job.
- dang 4y agoPlease edit swipes like "you appear to be ignorant [etc.]" out of your posts to HN. They break the site guidelines, and you can make your substantive points without them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you about this many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120252 (Jan 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598017 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25935223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25935223 (Jan 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18774141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18774141 (Dec 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16175756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16175756 (Jan 2018) Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN in the intended spirit? We ban accounts that keep breaking them. I don't want to ban you, but we need you to fix this.
- ptsneves 4y agoI guess the world you want your son to live in is one of planned economies and great leaps forward. I for one do not. I would rather that innovation and competitive forces lead into the future of societies. As Stalin used to say: no people no problem.
- II2II 4y agoThe options are not as pure as you make it sound. There is a considerable amount of planning in the free market economies. This ranges from developing transportation networks to deciding upon funding for scientific research. Businesses that control a disproportionate amount of the market also make planning decisions to shape the market. When they make the wrong decisions, there are negative consequences. Arguably, that is what we are seeing at the moment with the supply chain problems. The question is how do you ensure that no single actor gains too much control over a segment of the economy? In many cases, the fallback is central planning. For example: one of the greatest reasons for public highway networks was to diminish the role of railway barons. In other words, centrally planned infrastructure supported a less centralized economy.
- bluetomcat 4y agoIt’s not a planned central economy. It is self-reliant local communities within regional bounds, like a fault-tolerant distributed system. They would trade primarily with adjacent regions stuff that they don’t or can’t produce locally. Knowledge, information and education should flow freely everywhere, enabling peace. People should feel comfortable living in their birthplace and should have no motivation for economic migration.
- michaelmrose 4y agoHow do you produce airplanes and silicon chips exactly?
- imtringued 4y agoWhy do you need an airplane in a local community? Also, silicon chips aren't exactly the type of thing that you constantly need to buy every single day nor are they expensive to ship. Using the same phone or laptop for years instead of buying a new one every single year is highly viable.
- KptMarchewa 4y agoThe interesting thing isn't even your assesment of "west", but what values you assign to russia. They are absolutely wrong. It's (for someone, paradoxically) extremely individualistic slave nation with very deep hierarchies of power.
- bluetomcat 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourth_Political_Theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourth_Political_Theory
- eli_gottlieb 4y ago>He refers to this ideology as a 'timeless, non-modern theory' valid for all time. Rubbish.
- danbolt 4y agoI can't tell if this would be the motivation of a Metal Gear Solid villain, or the motivation of a multi-disc JRPG final boss.
- type0 4y ago> It is certainly not a world I would want my son to live in. What world? The one where Russia is shunned?
- eli_gottlieb 4y ago>the hegemony of rampant worldwide liberalism You gonna define "liberalism" precisely? It's overloaded with mutually contradictory meanings.
- pertymcpert 4y agoWhat does liberalism mean in concrete terms and why is it bad?
- michaelmrose 4y agoThe conflict between Russia and the West is that once upon a time they represented competing similar power spheres of influence with the most important singular difference being which country would sit at the top and all other ideological differences being secondary. Their ecomic and military power collapsed but their ambitions did not. In a more rational world they would do what other former great powers do and talk shit but actually align their actual behavior with their factual strength because it doesn't pay to pick fights you can't win. Because their leadership has a unrealistic idea of their actual power they are locked in an immoral and unwinnable struggle to subjugate peoples and lands over which they have no moral or legal rights because that is what Moscow does they subjugate people that ethnically aren't Russian enough loot their treasure and use them as cannon fodder to murder other people they would like to subjugate. Making this a response to liberalism is just complete nonsense. It's a last power grab by an immoral and acquisitive power who sees theirs draining away.
- moistly 4y agoThe conflict is between one-person/one-vote and a cartel that has hijacked a nation.
- texasbigdata 4y agoShutting down all the nuclear?
- nextos 4y agoExactly, it's not like the energy supply decreased overnight due to natural scarcity. Peak oil might be a reality, but it's not the cause of current problems in the EU. Also, per capita energy consumption in the EU is 1/2 compared to the US due to more efficient commuting and buildings (still far from optimal though).
- nradov 4y agoPer capita energy consumption in the EU is lower than the US mostly because they are poorer (on a GDP per capita basis). Europeans would consume more energy if they could afford it.
- MagnumOpus 4y agoMostly incorrect take. Two points for your consideration: 1. All European countries tax gasoline far more heavily than the US, usually to the tune of 100-200% of the wholesale price. That is an intentional policy to lower gasoline consumption, governments could easily remove it if they wished for more energy consumption. 2. Not all European countries are "poorer" than the US even by a GDP measure. Norway which is a petrostate has about half the energy consumption of the US (measured by per capita carbon emissions), Switzerland about a quarter! If anything richer countries in Europe are better than the poorer Eastern neighbour as well as better than the US in minimizing energy waste -- better-insulated housing, better rail and subway networks.