11 ms·

> Interesting to see the comment thread digging into all sorts of criticism of the article (is it 2 kWh / fridge? Or 1.1? Should the author discuss renewable?)

> Interesting to see the comment thread digging into all sorts of criticism of the article (is it 2 kWh / fridge? Or 1.1? Should the author discuss renewable?) Hear hear. The point is, for those of us living in developed countries, is that all wealth is energy wealth. The western way of life is totally dependent on an abundance of cheap energy. When energy runs out, or becomes significantly more expensive, it's game over for developed countries. That's why Europeans are currently terrified. For those wishing to go a bit further than nitpicking the article, look up the following two concepts: - Peak oil [1] - Energy returned on energy invested [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment

weberer 4y ago
>The western way of life is totally dependent on an abundance of cheap energy Eastern too https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/World_fossil_carbon_dioxide_emissions_six_top_countries_and_confederations.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/World_fo...
- aeternum 4y ago
  All life is dependent on cheap energy. It's the currency of the universe.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    The Warlock series had this as the intergalactic currency - the kwaher or kilowatt/hour.
    - HorizonXP 4y ago
      Recommended read?
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      The one by Stasheff? I didn't remember that detail, but haven't read it in a while.
kodah 4y ago
Not just countries, inside the United States. It's amazing how Americans will turn a sympathetic eye and ear to other nations but not other states.
cinntaile 4y ago
EROI is a physical measure, it doesn't deal with price at all so I don't get what it has to do with your first paragraph?
- ciconia 4y ago
  It is rather an economic measure to my understanding. Lower EROI will tend to raise energy prices. According to the Wikipedia article, it has been argued that falling EROI has been responsible in part for the collapse of the Roman empire. It has also been linked to inflation.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    EROI doesn't tell you how much total energy you can extract nor how fast you can extract it, it just tells you how much of the energy you extract is usable.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> becomes significantly more expensive, it's game over for developed countries This is wholly unsustained. Yes, marginal luxuries will become less accessible, though not inaccessible. Flying, food variety, et cetera. But the sustainable cost of clean energy, and industrial processes running at those levels, is within traditional fuels’ long-term error bars [1]. The discrepancy in access to that energy will persist between the developed and developing worlds. (EROI is difficult to calculate. Once you take into account shipping costs, the EROI of PV approximates that of oil.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricit...
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  LCOE does not take most important thing of renewables into account - when the energy is actually available. Turns out it's extremely unstable, not only in the day/night cycle, but also around the year. December is black hole in Poland, less than hour of sunlight a day and weak wind.
- lazide 4y ago
  Nitrogen Fertilizer production is a base for the modern world that billions would die without, and with no identified economic replacement. It relies on fossil fuel to be produced. It is produced in the 100s of millions of metric tons a year. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_fertilizer_consumption,_OWID.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_fertilizer_con...] The closest non-fossil fuel alternatives are various types of hydrolysis, which at current natural gas prices on the US are 3-10x more expensive per kg of hydrogen produced. If you want world population to drop precipitously, make it expensive to produce THAT.
bluetomcat 4y ago
> When energy runs out, or becomes significantly more expensive, it's game over for developed countries. Western society is inefficient at a macro level, even though it may seem efficient from the financial perspective of a single company or an individual. People cover huge distances to work. Companies are moving goods, components and people from all over the world. People change jobs (losing focus) and their residence often, companies go bankrupt because of competitive market forces. This means a lot of wasted resources and duplication. You can decrease the energy consumption significantly without affecting the quality of life in case of adopting a new political philosophy which considers these realities.
- izend 4y ago
  Europe has the resources to produce cheap energy they just decided to not exploit it and import their energy from Russia and others.
  - bluetomcat 4y ago
    The conflict between Russia and the west is deeply rooted on the hegemony of rampant worldwide liberalism which creates the problems I described. It's a meat grinder which consumes not only excessive energy but people's livelihoods, too. It is certainly not a world I would want my son to live in.
    - goatlover 4y ago
      What's the better alternative?
      - bluetomcat 4y ago
        A better alternative would be to have localised production and localised consumption of food and most basic goods. Stuff like not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea. People should feel more attached to their birthplace and the goal should be to develop their skills locally with one company preferably. Strong bonds with the local extended family which provides an additional safety net. If your region produces cars, you should be more likely (through education and culture) to become an automotive engineer and live there for your life. Trade for more advanced goods should still be there, but it would be more inter-region and less inter-global.
goodpoint 4y ago
> The western way of life is totally dependent on an abundance of cheap energy. Western?! What about cities like Tokyo, Dubai, Beijing, Johannesburg, Singapore?
- Sakos 4y ago
  Tbfh, he's wrong. The modern (read: based on electricity and fossil fuels) way of life is dependent on cheap energy. China is currently the biggest emitter in the world. Not because they're particularly wasteful necessarily, no. Surprise, an enormous amount of energy is required for a modern society to sustain itself, especially when that country is home to 1.4 billion people. They've built more nuclear reactors than all other countries combined in the past decade, and they're still heavily reliant on gas and coal (62% coal, 5% nuclear). Nobody knows how to efficiently and cleanly generate that much energy. For comparison, France, which produces 78% of its electricity with nuclear, only generates about 380 TWh per year with nuclear power plants (2019). China generates ~350 TWh/year with nuclear. 5% of their energy production produces as much as close to 80% of France's energy sector. And before anybody chimes in with "but they produce everything for everybody in the West": Only around 10% of their production is exported. They have the biggest domestic market in the world and they have the largest middle class population in the world. They have money too and they consume like any other economic actor. And all this is before considering things like how energy-intensive producing fertilizer is, and fossil fuels are a required part of getting the necessary ingredients. This can't be solved by consuming/producing less unless a part of that solution is wiping out a significant part of the human population and getting rid of modern civilization. Solving the energy issue (and by extension poverty, resource conflicts, etc.) requires us to actually figure out how to generate enough cheap and clean energy for 8+ billion people.

weberer 4y ago

>The western way of life is totally dependent on an abundance of cheap energy Eastern too https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/World_fossil_carbon_dioxide_emissions_six_top_countries_and_confederations.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/World_fo...

aeternum 4y ago
All life is dependent on cheap energy. It's the currency of the universe.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The Warlock series had this as the intergalactic currency - the kwaher or kilowatt/hour.
  - HorizonXP 4y ago
    Recommended read?
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    The one by Stasheff? I didn't remember that detail, but haven't read it in a while.

kodah 4y ago

Not just countries, inside the United States. It's amazing how Americans will turn a sympathetic eye and ear to other nations but not other states.

cinntaile 4y ago

EROI is a physical measure, it doesn't deal with price at all so I don't get what it has to do with your first paragraph?

ciconia 4y ago
It is rather an economic measure to my understanding. Lower EROI will tend to raise energy prices. According to the Wikipedia article, it has been argued that falling EROI has been responsible in part for the collapse of the Roman empire. It has also been linked to inflation.
- imtringued 4y ago
  EROI doesn't tell you how much total energy you can extract nor how fast you can extract it, it just tells you how much of the energy you extract is usable.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> becomes significantly more expensive, it's game over for developed countries This is wholly unsustained. Yes, marginal luxuries will become less accessible, though not inaccessible. Flying, food variety, et cetera. But the sustainable cost of clean energy, and industrial processes running at those levels, is within traditional fuels’ long-term error bars [1]. The discrepancy in access to that energy will persist between the developed and developing worlds. (EROI is difficult to calculate. Once you take into account shipping costs, the EROI of PV approximates that of oil.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricit...

KptMarchewa 4y ago
LCOE does not take most important thing of renewables into account - when the energy is actually available. Turns out it's extremely unstable, not only in the day/night cycle, but also around the year. December is black hole in Poland, less than hour of sunlight a day and weak wind.
lazide 4y ago
Nitrogen Fertilizer production is a base for the modern world that billions would die without, and with no identified economic replacement. It relies on fossil fuel to be produced. It is produced in the 100s of millions of metric tons a year. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_fertilizer_consumption,_OWID.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_fertilizer_con...] The closest non-fossil fuel alternatives are various types of hydrolysis, which at current natural gas prices on the US are 3-10x more expensive per kg of hydrogen produced. If you want world population to drop precipitously, make it expensive to produce THAT.

bluetomcat 4y ago

> When energy runs out, or becomes significantly more expensive, it's game over for developed countries. Western society is inefficient at a macro level, even though it may seem efficient from the financial perspective of a single company or an individual. People cover huge distances to work. Companies are moving goods, components and people from all over the world. People change jobs (losing focus) and their residence often, companies go bankrupt because of competitive market forces. This means a lot of wasted resources and duplication. You can decrease the energy consumption significantly without affecting the quality of life in case of adopting a new political philosophy which considers these realities.

izend 4y ago
Europe has the resources to produce cheap energy they just decided to not exploit it and import their energy from Russia and others.
- bluetomcat 4y ago
  The conflict between Russia and the west is deeply rooted on the hegemony of rampant worldwide liberalism which creates the problems I described. It's a meat grinder which consumes not only excessive energy but people's livelihoods, too. It is certainly not a world I would want my son to live in.
  - goatlover 4y ago
    What's the better alternative?
    - bluetomcat 4y ago
      A better alternative would be to have localised production and localised consumption of food and most basic goods. Stuff like not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea. People should feel more attached to their birthplace and the goal should be to develop their skills locally with one company preferably. Strong bonds with the local extended family which provides an additional safety net. If your region produces cars, you should be more likely (through education and culture) to become an automotive engineer and live there for your life. Trade for more advanced goods should still be there, but it would be more inter-region and less inter-global.

goodpoint 4y ago

> The western way of life is totally dependent on an abundance of cheap energy. Western?! What about cities like Tokyo, Dubai, Beijing, Johannesburg, Singapore?

Sakos 4y ago
Tbfh, he's wrong. The modern (read: based on electricity and fossil fuels) way of life is dependent on cheap energy. China is currently the biggest emitter in the world. Not because they're particularly wasteful necessarily, no. Surprise, an enormous amount of energy is required for a modern society to sustain itself, especially when that country is home to 1.4 billion people. They've built more nuclear reactors than all other countries combined in the past decade, and they're still heavily reliant on gas and coal (62% coal, 5% nuclear). Nobody knows how to efficiently and cleanly generate that much energy. For comparison, France, which produces 78% of its electricity with nuclear, only generates about 380 TWh per year with nuclear power plants (2019). China generates ~350 TWh/year with nuclear. 5% of their energy production produces as much as close to 80% of France's energy sector. And before anybody chimes in with "but they produce everything for everybody in the West": Only around 10% of their production is exported. They have the biggest domestic market in the world and they have the largest middle class population in the world. They have money too and they consume like any other economic actor. And all this is before considering things like how energy-intensive producing fertilizer is, and fossil fuels are a required part of getting the necessary ingredients. This can't be solved by consuming/producing less unless a part of that solution is wiping out a significant part of the human population and getting rid of modern civilization. Solving the energy issue (and by extension poverty, resource conflicts, etc.) requires us to actually figure out how to generate enough cheap and clean energy for 8+ billion people.