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I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw

I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

lm28469 4y ago
> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea
- badcppdev 4y ago
  Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise.
  - mistersquid 4y ago
    > Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise. When vehicles past a certain volume (which are not aggressively streamlined to shatter human-powered landspeed records) move faster than 25 kph (15 mph) they displace enough air that they are quite loud. An automobile-sized vehicle isn’t some kind of terrestrial ninja when its engine doesn’t make noise. Depending on make, model and speed, the volume of displaced air is significantly louder than the engine running at constant velocity.
  - mumblemumble 4y ago
    Or imagine if you're a kid and it's physically impossible for you to see around an SUV parked adjacently to the crosswalk without actually sticking your head out into the street. That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument hasn't really worked for decades now. Modern mufflers mean most unmodified cars aren't loud enough to be clearly heard over background noise in an area with lots of cars. Pedestrian safety is absolutely a problem that's worsening, but I don't think that "make cars noisier" is the solution. Barring the ideal (to me) solution of fewer cars in the first place, what seems most promising to me is making the infrastructure itself more pedestrian-friendly. I was impressed to see what Amsterdam's city center did with encouraging cars out onto the thoroughfares and out of the places where people are walking. They didn't seem to have the same "Waze addicts blowing through stop signs on residential streets" problem that we have in North America. Nor did they have the same problem with stroads and their obnoxious traffic patterns that set everyone who uses the on edge. It seemed to make transportation both safer and more pleasant for everyone involved.
    - aequitas 4y ago
      > That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument hasn't really worked for decades now. Tires often make more noise than car engines nowadays. I live along a busy street and often I can't audibly distinct a Tesla from an ICE except for a faint hum. They are both as loud when passing by.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    An EV going faster than 15mph is quite audible and one going slower than that can stop on a dime. If you can't hear anything it should be safe to cross. There's a significant gap between theory and reality, but I'm not sure noise pollution is the answer.
  - guenthert 4y ago
    Even with regular gas powered cars, the tyre noise dominates for a long time already, except at very low speed. A Tesla isn't much more quiet than any other modern sedan (thanks to wide tyres with soft rubbers). It's really just (wannabe) sports cars, old trucks and god damn Harleys where it's different.
- trasz 4y ago
  Is this still a problem now that we have auto braking?
  - ninkendo 4y ago
    Yes.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    A human walking has a much shorter stopping distance than any vehicle out there.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Auto braking only mitigates crash impact in some scenarios, and prevents impacts in even fewer scenarios.
    - trasz 4y ago
      I wonder if we could have radio beacons for pedestrians, in addition to the current braking systems which use radio waves reflected from electronically passive pedestrians. It might not even require GPS or anything complicated; just respond to car’s radar squawks, so that it can measure the distance and relative speed from the delay and Doppler shift. You’d need to use frequency that bounces around nicely, to “get around” other cars blocking the line of sight. We can’t do that with passive pedestrians, because we can’t tell the echo from pedestrian from the (also moving, like other cars) background. This could work more reliably and at much higher distances. Of course someone must have tested that already; I’d be grateful for a link :-)
      - kube-system 4y ago
        It’s a neat idea, but adoption would likely be enough of a challenge to undermine the efficacy.
- YorickPeterse 4y ago
  This is only a problem when there are other loud vehicles around. If all vehicles are more quiet, you'll still be able to hear them, it just won't be as loud as it is today.
- red369 4y ago
  On the other hand, pedestrians relying on hearing a car coming is a nightmare for cyclists.
foepys 4y ago
I wish EVs were actually silent. In reality they are just as loud as a normal ICE vehicle above 20mph/30kph. The reason for this are the tires which have gotten so wide over the past decades that they are now the sole noise you hear from a normal car.
- jackmott 4y ago
- davemp 4y ago
  You should hear the folks that gun it a couple streets over with their modded mufflers at 2am in my neighborhood.
- dekhn 4y ago
  Uh, no. I have a hybrid and the difference in noise between a gas engine and electric is highly noticeable at all speeds, in cabin or outside.
- garyfirestorm 4y ago
  There’s a regulatory requirement that specifies how much minimum noise should be emitted in each frequency band. All BEVs need this pedestrian alert system. It takes into account that partially deaf people may not be able to hear certain frequencies say tire noise band.
  - jillesvangurp 4y ago
    There are a few models of ice cars that basically are very quiet when they drive slowly. Nobody ever complains about how quiet they are. It's not a problem. And it was never a problem in the past. It's only a problem when EV's are concerned. Or rather it's a problem people imagine is real because other people who also did not do their homework say it is so based on what they've heard.
    - garyfirestorm 4y ago
      I actually work for an automotive company and specifically deal with vehicle acoustics. Yes EVs at low speeds are imperceptible and a danger to even a person with baseline hearing let alone a partially deaf or blind person. These regulations are there for a reason. It’s not imagination. We measure quantifiable data using reference microphones. Though I agree that some gas cars are extremely quiet and difficult to perceive, that doesn’t mean we should shackle ourselves and prevent meaningful change for next generation vehicles.
sokoloff 4y ago
Above about 20 mph, EVs naturally make plenty of noise for people to realize they’re there and moving. It’s only at low speed that they’re overly quiet for pedestrian awareness.
- DoughnutHole 4y ago
  Getting hit at 18mph is still not a very good time. Sure it's better than being squished at 40mph, but that's still a lot of momentum in a couple tonnes of SUV. If the silence of the vehicles increases the likelihood of lower speed collisions then that's potentially a problem.
CalChris 4y ago
The first time I ever saw an EV was in San Francisco, an EV1, somewhere around 2000. It literally was silent at slow speeds. My own first EV was a Leaf which has a noise maker which starts audible and decreases with speed and cuts out at about 20. I don't think my S does this. It should. This sound is a little annoying for the driver but is necessary for pedestrians, particularly blind people. BTW, this clutch idea is really really dumb.
dpatterbee 4y ago
> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? The future looks bleaker with each passing day
- sokoloff 4y ago
  My uncle has a country place, that no-one knows about He says it used to be a farm, before the Motor Law Sundays I elude the ‘Eyes’, and hop the Turbine Freight To far outside the Wire, where my white-haired uncle waits Jump to the ground As the Turbo slows to cross the borderline Run like the wind As excitement shivers up and down my spine Down in his barn My uncle preserved for me an old machine – For fifty-odd years To keep it as new has been his dearest dream I strip away the old debris, that hides a shining car A brilliant red Barchetta, from a better, vanished time Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime… Wind in my hair – Shifting and drifting – Mechanical music Adrenalin surge – Well-weathered leather Hot metal and oil The scented country air Sunlight on chrome The blur of the landscape Every nerve aware … Red Barchetta - Rush - Moving Pictures - 1981
chiefalchemist 4y ago
It's not all about pedestrians. Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand. It's what people buy (into). Not saying that's right or wrong. Only that it's not strictly a pedestrian thing. Since in EVs it's more or less simulated, it would make since to have more than one setting and one of those to be off. p.s. The Dodge Charger has been ine of Dodge's most successful model. Gazillions of recognition has been invested in that model. They're not going to abandon that. In fact, the name makes more sense as an EV.
- lm28469 4y ago
  > It's not all about pedestrians. > and one of those to be off. It definitely is, Europe wouldn't pass a law mandating slow speed EV artificial noise if it was just a matter of branding
  - chiefalchemist 4y ago
    Because a know all government knows best? And has never overreached? That said, it doesn't mean a manufacturer can't use sound to their benefit, regardless of what regulations says. In fact, I believe in Norman's "The Design of Everyday Things" he sites an example (or two) where sound was part of the design of a product.
- mistersquid 4y ago
  > Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand. When a significant part of your brand is noise pollution, your brand needs updating. [0] [0] According to Autoweek, "Loud pipes save lives" is false https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a35952569/loud-pipes-do-not-save-lives/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a35952569/loud-p...
dylan604 4y ago
The Dodge Charger has been around a lot longer than EVs. It is has also recently been announced they are discontinuing the Charger as an ICE model.
- garyfirestorm 4y ago
  Just the V8 ICE is going away
- pwg 4y ago
  > The Dodge Charger has been around a lot longer than EVs. Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger) the name has been around for 56 years (since 1966). Or 58 years for the "show car" version of 1964.
- ForHackernews 4y ago
  Technically EVs predate all petrol cars, let alone the Dodge Charger https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-wa... > Electrobat! Is that not a great name? It belongs to the first commercially viable EV effort. Philadelphians Pedro Salom and Henry G. Morris adapted technology from battery-electric street cars and boats and got a patent in 1894. At first very heavy and slow (like a trolley car, with steel “tires” and 1600 pounds of batteries onboard), their Electrobat [at left] evolved to employ pneumatic tires and lighter materials so that, by 1896, their rear-steer carriages used two 1.1-kW motors to move 25 miles at a top speed of 20 mph. Electrobats and another electric by Riker won a series of five-mile sprint races against gasoline Duryea automobiles in 1896.
schuke 4y ago
If Charger is a name too mundane for the digital world, perhaps Super Charger would up the game a little bit ? Oh wait…
Fiahil 4y ago
> makes authentic loud V8 noises I'm so glad this monstrosity is not cleared for European roads.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
datavirtue 4y ago
In the future pedestrians are first class citizens, and the cars refuse to run over them.
cnasc 4y ago
> makes authentic loud V8 noises Doesn’t it make an obnoxiously amplified EV high pitched whir? That was the impression I got from the unveiling
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
> EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) To be fair, the Charger name was created long before it meant "thing you use to plug into an electric device", and the Charger is a very popular vehicle in the Dodge lineup. And you don't abandon popular models without generating negative PR. So Dodge didn't really have a choice. Plus, they can use the pun in witty commercials.
- superchroma 4y ago
  I know, they could have chosen the Dart or stuck with the Challenger. Or, wild idea, go for the Coronet, Plymouth Cuda, Roadrunner or GTX. I guess they're going to go with the joke, anyway.
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
    Going with the joke is kinda Dodge's schtick these days. Sets them apart.
- bluejekyll 4y ago
  They killed the Charger brand in 1987, then reintroduced it in 2006. Fast cars are dangerous on our streets and responsible for a significant number of deaths on the road. It wouldn’t be bad if they killed the brand for society. It’s too bad that “car that gets you great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks” doesn’t sell.
  - bcrosby95 4y ago
    > It’s too bad that “car that gets you great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks” doesn’t sell. We lost that battle 20+ years ago, when SUVs and giant trucks became so popular.
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
    Every car - including Tesla - meets your definition of "fast car." The "most boring car in the world," the Toyota Camry, will blow the doors off supercars of 20 years ago, and is about as fast in a straight line than many so-called "fast" cars. It also gets great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks, and sells rather well.
mannykannot 4y ago
The acquisition of a patent by a major corporation is not much evidence that it will ever be implemented; it amounts to a relatively cheap option on being able to do so. Personally, this one seems about as appealing as bringing back the manual ignition advance on gas-engined cars.

lm28469 4y ago

> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea

badcppdev 4y ago
Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise.
- mistersquid 4y ago
  > Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise. When vehicles past a certain volume (which are not aggressively streamlined to shatter human-powered landspeed records) move faster than 25 kph (15 mph) they displace enough air that they are quite loud. An automobile-sized vehicle isn’t some kind of terrestrial ninja when its engine doesn’t make noise. Depending on make, model and speed, the volume of displaced air is significantly louder than the engine running at constant velocity.
- mumblemumble 4y ago
  Or imagine if you're a kid and it's physically impossible for you to see around an SUV parked adjacently to the crosswalk without actually sticking your head out into the street. That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument hasn't really worked for decades now. Modern mufflers mean most unmodified cars aren't loud enough to be clearly heard over background noise in an area with lots of cars. Pedestrian safety is absolutely a problem that's worsening, but I don't think that "make cars noisier" is the solution. Barring the ideal (to me) solution of fewer cars in the first place, what seems most promising to me is making the infrastructure itself more pedestrian-friendly. I was impressed to see what Amsterdam's city center did with encouraging cars out onto the thoroughfares and out of the places where people are walking. They didn't seem to have the same "Waze addicts blowing through stop signs on residential streets" problem that we have in North America. Nor did they have the same problem with stroads and their obnoxious traffic patterns that set everyone who uses the on edge. It seemed to make transportation both safer and more pleasant for everyone involved.
  - aequitas 4y ago
    > That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument hasn't really worked for decades now. Tires often make more noise than car engines nowadays. I live along a busy street and often I can't audibly distinct a Tesla from an ICE except for a faint hum. They are both as loud when passing by.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  An EV going faster than 15mph is quite audible and one going slower than that can stop on a dime. If you can't hear anything it should be safe to cross. There's a significant gap between theory and reality, but I'm not sure noise pollution is the answer.
- guenthert 4y ago
  Even with regular gas powered cars, the tyre noise dominates for a long time already, except at very low speed. A Tesla isn't much more quiet than any other modern sedan (thanks to wide tyres with soft rubbers). It's really just (wannabe) sports cars, old trucks and god damn Harleys where it's different.
trasz 4y ago
Is this still a problem now that we have auto braking?
- ninkendo 4y ago
  Yes.
- falcolas 4y ago
  A human walking has a much shorter stopping distance than any vehicle out there.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Auto braking only mitigates crash impact in some scenarios, and prevents impacts in even fewer scenarios.
  - trasz 4y ago
    I wonder if we could have radio beacons for pedestrians, in addition to the current braking systems which use radio waves reflected from electronically passive pedestrians. It might not even require GPS or anything complicated; just respond to car’s radar squawks, so that it can measure the distance and relative speed from the delay and Doppler shift. You’d need to use frequency that bounces around nicely, to “get around” other cars blocking the line of sight. We can’t do that with passive pedestrians, because we can’t tell the echo from pedestrian from the (also moving, like other cars) background. This could work more reliably and at much higher distances. Of course someone must have tested that already; I’d be grateful for a link :-)
    - kube-system 4y ago
      It’s a neat idea, but adoption would likely be enough of a challenge to undermine the efficacy.
YorickPeterse 4y ago
This is only a problem when there are other loud vehicles around. If all vehicles are more quiet, you'll still be able to hear them, it just won't be as loud as it is today.
red369 4y ago
On the other hand, pedestrians relying on hearing a car coming is a nightmare for cyclists.

foepys 4y ago

I wish EVs were actually silent. In reality they are just as loud as a normal ICE vehicle above 20mph/30kph. The reason for this are the tires which have gotten so wide over the past decades that they are now the sole noise you hear from a normal car.

jackmott 4y ago
davemp 4y ago
You should hear the folks that gun it a couple streets over with their modded mufflers at 2am in my neighborhood.
dekhn 4y ago
Uh, no. I have a hybrid and the difference in noise between a gas engine and electric is highly noticeable at all speeds, in cabin or outside.
garyfirestorm 4y ago
There’s a regulatory requirement that specifies how much minimum noise should be emitted in each frequency band. All BEVs need this pedestrian alert system. It takes into account that partially deaf people may not be able to hear certain frequencies say tire noise band.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  There are a few models of ice cars that basically are very quiet when they drive slowly. Nobody ever complains about how quiet they are. It's not a problem. And it was never a problem in the past. It's only a problem when EV's are concerned. Or rather it's a problem people imagine is real because other people who also did not do their homework say it is so based on what they've heard.
  - garyfirestorm 4y ago
    I actually work for an automotive company and specifically deal with vehicle acoustics. Yes EVs at low speeds are imperceptible and a danger to even a person with baseline hearing let alone a partially deaf or blind person. These regulations are there for a reason. It’s not imagination. We measure quantifiable data using reference microphones. Though I agree that some gas cars are extremely quiet and difficult to perceive, that doesn’t mean we should shackle ourselves and prevent meaningful change for next generation vehicles.

sokoloff 4y ago

Above about 20 mph, EVs naturally make plenty of noise for people to realize they’re there and moving. It’s only at low speed that they’re overly quiet for pedestrian awareness.

DoughnutHole 4y ago
Getting hit at 18mph is still not a very good time. Sure it's better than being squished at 40mph, but that's still a lot of momentum in a couple tonnes of SUV. If the silence of the vehicles increases the likelihood of lower speed collisions then that's potentially a problem.

CalChris 4y ago

The first time I ever saw an EV was in San Francisco, an EV1, somewhere around 2000. It literally was silent at slow speeds. My own first EV was a Leaf which has a noise maker which starts audible and decreases with speed and cuts out at about 20. I don't think my S does this. It should. This sound is a little annoying for the driver but is necessary for pedestrians, particularly blind people. BTW, this clutch idea is really really dumb.

dpatterbee 4y ago

> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? The future looks bleaker with each passing day

sokoloff 4y ago
My uncle has a country place, that no-one knows about He says it used to be a farm, before the Motor Law Sundays I elude the ‘Eyes’, and hop the Turbine Freight To far outside the Wire, where my white-haired uncle waits Jump to the ground As the Turbo slows to cross the borderline Run like the wind As excitement shivers up and down my spine Down in his barn My uncle preserved for me an old machine – For fifty-odd years To keep it as new has been his dearest dream I strip away the old debris, that hides a shining car A brilliant red Barchetta, from a better, vanished time Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime… Wind in my hair – Shifting and drifting – Mechanical music Adrenalin surge – Well-weathered leather Hot metal and oil The scented country air Sunlight on chrome The blur of the landscape Every nerve aware … Red Barchetta - Rush - Moving Pictures - 1981

chiefalchemist 4y ago

It's not all about pedestrians. Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand. It's what people buy (into). Not saying that's right or wrong. Only that it's not strictly a pedestrian thing. Since in EVs it's more or less simulated, it would make since to have more than one setting and one of those to be off. p.s. The Dodge Charger has been ine of Dodge's most successful model. Gazillions of recognition has been invested in that model. They're not going to abandon that. In fact, the name makes more sense as an EV.

lm28469 4y ago
> It's not all about pedestrians. > and one of those to be off. It definitely is, Europe wouldn't pass a law mandating slow speed EV artificial noise if it was just a matter of branding
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  Because a know all government knows best? And has never overreached? That said, it doesn't mean a manufacturer can't use sound to their benefit, regardless of what regulations says. In fact, I believe in Norman's "The Design of Everyday Things" he sites an example (or two) where sound was part of the design of a product.
mistersquid 4y ago
> Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand. When a significant part of your brand is noise pollution, your brand needs updating. [0] [0] According to Autoweek, "Loud pipes save lives" is false https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a35952569/loud-pipes-do-not-save-lives/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a35952569/loud-p...

dylan604 4y ago

The Dodge Charger has been around a lot longer than EVs. It is has also recently been announced they are discontinuing the Charger as an ICE model.

garyfirestorm 4y ago
Just the V8 ICE is going away
pwg 4y ago
> The Dodge Charger has been around a lot longer than EVs. Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger) the name has been around for 56 years (since 1966). Or 58 years for the "show car" version of 1964.
ForHackernews 4y ago
Technically EVs predate all petrol cars, let alone the Dodge Charger https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-wa... > Electrobat! Is that not a great name? It belongs to the first commercially viable EV effort. Philadelphians Pedro Salom and Henry G. Morris adapted technology from battery-electric street cars and boats and got a patent in 1894. At first very heavy and slow (like a trolley car, with steel “tires” and 1600 pounds of batteries onboard), their Electrobat [at left] evolved to employ pneumatic tires and lighter materials so that, by 1896, their rear-steer carriages used two 1.1-kW motors to move 25 miles at a top speed of 20 mph. Electrobats and another electric by Riker won a series of five-mile sprint races against gasoline Duryea automobiles in 1896.

schuke 4y ago

If Charger is a name too mundane for the digital world, perhaps Super Charger would up the game a little bit ? Oh wait…

Fiahil 4y ago

> makes authentic loud V8 noises I'm so glad this monstrosity is not cleared for European roads.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

datavirtue 4y ago

In the future pedestrians are first class citizens, and the cars refuse to run over them.

cnasc 4y ago

> makes authentic loud V8 noises Doesn’t it make an obnoxiously amplified EV high pitched whir? That was the impression I got from the unveiling

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago

> EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) To be fair, the Charger name was created long before it meant "thing you use to plug into an electric device", and the Charger is a very popular vehicle in the Dodge lineup. And you don't abandon popular models without generating negative PR. So Dodge didn't really have a choice. Plus, they can use the pun in witty commercials.

superchroma 4y ago
I know, they could have chosen the Dart or stuck with the Challenger. Or, wild idea, go for the Coronet, Plymouth Cuda, Roadrunner or GTX. I guess they're going to go with the joke, anyway.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  Going with the joke is kinda Dodge's schtick these days. Sets them apart.
bluejekyll 4y ago
They killed the Charger brand in 1987, then reintroduced it in 2006. Fast cars are dangerous on our streets and responsible for a significant number of deaths on the road. It wouldn’t be bad if they killed the brand for society. It’s too bad that “car that gets you great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks” doesn’t sell.
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  > It’s too bad that “car that gets you great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks” doesn’t sell. We lost that battle 20+ years ago, when SUVs and giant trucks became so popular.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  Every car - including Tesla - meets your definition of "fast car." The "most boring car in the world," the Toyota Camry, will blow the doors off supercars of 20 years ago, and is about as fast in a straight line than many so-called "fast" cars. It also gets great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks, and sells rather well.

mannykannot 4y ago

The acquisition of a patent by a major corporation is not much evidence that it will ever be implemented; it amounts to a relatively cheap option on being able to do so. Personally, this one seems about as appealing as bringing back the manual ignition advance on gas-engined cars.