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I love EVs. That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000. Something like that which can go 30mph and had

I love EVs. That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000. Something like that which can go 30mph and had space for 2 days of groceries would be enough for me to eliminate my car all together. I'm cobbling something similar now with a Class 3 cargo ebike, but rain sucks =/ The idealist in me says that electric ebikes could eliminate most of Americas problems in one swoop: - Pedal assisted ebikes result in exercise. America is up there in obesity. - America is also up there in cardiovascular unhealthiness. - Americans have an average distance of 15 miles to work. 30mph + 60 mile range would allow you to comfortably get to work in approximately 30 minutes and give you enough juice to do it round trip, twice. - Lower speeds result in fewer accident fatalities. America is up there in the number of road deaths. Lower speeds and smaller vehicles would lower this. - Bike infrastructure can be used for walking. Walking is good. This promotes accessibility for a large range of people, notably children and elders. - Bikes require less space to park, a lot less. This extra space can be used to build more housing. This additional housing will increase density, making bikes only more viable (compared to being in traffic in a car). --- EVs are better than ICE, certainly. But I fear it will exacerbate some of our problems. - The CapEx for EVs will discourage walking infrastructure. - EVs can accelerate faster, much faster. I fear this will result in more accidents. - EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. Hopefully this doesn't result in EV accidents being more likely to have a fatality. Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars ideally, as opposed to transition to EVs from ICE, but I suppose baby steps are warranted here.

hutzlibu 4y ago
"Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars ideally" I likely cycled more km, than I drove by car and I do not intend to change that, but for long distance trips with the whole family, a car is hard to beat or replace.
oblio 4y ago
> - EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. Extra: - more tire and road particulates pollution - more road wear (someone said something like road wear is the power of 4 of the weight of the vehicle, which makes extra weight particularly awful), ergo higher infra expenses
elicash 4y ago
Thoughts on LSVs?
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Helps with the accidents but otherwise has most of the same disadvantages as a car.
renewiltord 4y ago
Maybe the Smart EQ Fortwo? Hard to get in the US and out of your price point, but if you're more interested in the vehicle than the price.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Funny that you mention that, I had a Smart Fortwo EV. Got destroyed by a Ford truck. I loved that little car.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    Bloody hell. Well I'm glad you're okay.
BuckRogers 4y ago
Taking advantage of bike lanes in cities is a huge advantage for a battery/motor assisted bicycle, but I do most of what you describe with a Yamaha XT250. Just don't go out if it looks like rain. You have your helmet and pack a raincoat in case you get unlucky. To carry some groceries you could easily rig a small rack on the back where you can attach/detach a grated plastic crate. Then put some in a backpack. I don't do all of that but I could easily do it. I'm at the stage of my life where owning a small truck like a Tacoma or Maverick makes a lot of sense due to the utility. You have a lot of good ideas. On your negatives for EVs, I'd say walking infrastructure can't really occur without living in a dense city. Pipedream otherwise. Acceleration is less of a problem rather than people not paying attention at all, smartphones. As far as the weight, that will go down over time as solid state batteries come around. I wouldn't trade my motorcycle for an EV motorcycle without significant advances, I also don't see interstate towing being overtaken by EVs anytime soon. You just can't beat a diesel for that whether it be in a pickup, van, or semi, and it will be tough to do so. Yet EVs in general are definitely inevitable as they are already better for countywide travel.
- lstodd 4y ago
  XT250 IMO is not very convenient for shopping. Something like Majesty 400 is much better, or even old 2T 100cc Neo's if you can find one. It's amazing how much stuff fits in under the saddle. And I once moved a full-size ironing board on the latter, just duct-taped it to a rear handle and the front. Can't go that crazy on a proper motorcycle.
  - BuckRogers 4y ago
    I agree. It’s not the best choice probably but it’s what I have. I’m a dual sport fan, enjoying trail rides. There’s definitely better grocery getters. I did have a Yamaha moped years ago and it is surprising how much fits under those seats. They’re just so slippery on rocks and sand due to the small wheels on scooters. I remember taking a spill going around a corner just on pavement a couple times.
    - lstodd 4y ago
aeharding 4y ago
Rain isn't really a problem with the appropriate clothing. (Speaking as someone that rides year round for transportation in Wisconsin.) The only problem I've had is downpours can soak your shoes but I just have an extra pair of shoes at work and at home.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  I agree that rain isn't really a huge problem (though I still consider it a problem), but without enclosure you're unlikely to take random trips as you might not be able to change.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  Rain is definitely a problem for a vehicle which depends on lateral tilt to turn and which depends on inertia to stay upright. Speaking as someone who has ridden many years round in Seattle, where the roads lean along with the hills even where the hills aren’t that steep. Those turns are a mistake or an unexpected cross vehicle away from a crash on our driest days, but the rain really amplifies that danger.
  - snuxoll 4y ago
    Rain wouldn't be such a problem if we had dedicated biking infrastructure ala The Netherlands. We need to rethink the design of our cities to move away from this car-dependent box we've put ourselves in, because just adopting EVs isn't enough.
  - wenc 4y ago
    I've driven in Seattle in the rain, and some streets (especially near Pike Place Market) are so steep that once my wheels lost their grip and slipped and rolled downhill a little at an intersection. I'm not sure why it's even safe to design an intersection on a very steep road that's difficult to stop at. Water and slopes are not a good combination for road safety even for four-wheelers.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
npunt 4y ago
Agree - eBikes solve so many problems if we could only create there infra for them. Aside from co2, which is partially offset by the emissions from materials and manufacture, the only thing EVs really have going for them is less brake dust. However even that may be offset by the additional tire wear due to their weight and which contributes more to poor air quality than ice engines do these days. EVs being heavier also means more road maintenance required. Basically EVs are just kicking the can down the road a little bit, within the confines of our culture and infrastructure, but do not solve our structural problems.
- sephamorr 4y ago
  You have to be very careful when talking about relative pollutant emissions. Yes, the average EV is heavier and results in more tire wear and tire dust, but note that these particles are much larger (pm10 or larger) than most ICE particulates (~pm2.5). Heavier particles fall out of the air much faster and don't get stuck in the bottom of lungs. Overall pm2.5 particles are far more harmful to human health once inhaled as well. Regarding maintenance, road wear is a high order function with axle weight - so trucks and weathering contribute the vast majority of wear. So light duty cars getting a bit heavier won't make much difference, and regulations already bound axle weights, so it won't be increasing for EV heavy duty vehicles. This all being said, the average American city and suburb suck and totally need to be reorganized around literally anything except the automobile. Visiting the Netherlands just made me sad...thinking this is how nice cities can be. I imagine the mental health benefits of such city planning could even outweigh the environmental ones.
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snuxoll 4y ago
> Bike infrastructure can be used for walking. Please, no more of this. Bicycles should be on their own dedicated right of way, mixing them with cars is dangerous for cyclists, but mixing bikes with pedestrians is dangerous for pedestrians. Multi-use paths are fine for recreation, but they are not transit infrastructure and should not be treated as such.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  As both a cyclist and pedestrian, I definitely prefer bikes off the sidewalk. Even conscientious cyclists who call “on your left” or whatever routinely underestimate the necessary reaction time and overestimate how far their voice will carry. Even if they get both of those right, they’ve frequently terrified my pup by just being faster and louder and larger than anything on foot she’s ever met. I’ve had to return home and restart our entire morning/evening because of this countless times. I don’t feel as strongly about separated bike infrastructure, mainly because my experience with it is that it’s more dangerous than riding in auto lanes, and that it creates an illusion of separation that both heightens that danger and heightens the dangerous attitudes of drivers trying to navigate it. I’m sure it’s better where the infrastructure is better, but where I live I choose to ride my bike away from those accommodations and right in traffic with the cars and drivers who flow together with me.
  - crooked-v 4y ago
    > separated bike infrastructure > drivers trying to navigate it Well, there's your problem - it's not actually separated.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      Yep, that is exactly my problem.
    - michaelt 4y ago
      If you have a T junction, either you're going to have the car path going through the bike path, or you'll need a bridge or tunnel. And the best places for cycle commuting have high density - meaning more T junctions per mile. 'Truly separated' bike infrastructure isn't easy.
crooked-v 4y ago
> That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000. Something like that which can go 30mph and had space for 2 days of groceries would be enough for me to eliminate my car all together. You can already get exactly that kind of vehicle for relatively cheap, though not as cheap as you're proposing... it's called an electric golf cart or, for the upscale versions, an "electrified low-speed vehicle". They start at about $5,000 from US manufacturers, but you can cut that down to around $3,500-$4,000 (including shipping) if you're willing to order off Aliexpress.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  LSVs have basically all of the disadvantages of cars without any of the advantages considering used beaters are a thing imho.
  - NegativeLatency 4y ago
    Or a used smart car
hattmall 4y ago
What is an enclosed bicycle?? Maybe you could use a golf cart. You could get pretty close to 30 MPH and 60 Miles travel time for under $2k.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  A golf cart has to travel on the same roads as a car, except it's slower and less safe. No advantage really.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    Slower is safer for pedestrians. It's safer alternative for (?) elders than a full featured car.
    - powersnail 4y ago
      Changing lanes will be pretty difficult if the golf cart is much slower than general traffic.
      - fomine3 4y ago
        Yeah it's pain as a car driver. There's no ideal solution.
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    I am currently living in a seaside town where golf carts are a normal means of transportation. You see them out and about every day. On the main highway through town, they drive on the shoulder; everywhere else, they take a lane just like cars do. The people here clearly believe they have some advantage.
  - Arainach 4y ago
    Anything travelling 30mph has to travel on the roads. Class 3 ebike owners who ride on shared use trails are a menace and a serious threat - to pedestrians, to other cyclists, and to any goodwill cycling has in the community.
smileysteve 4y ago
We have a $400 (when on sale) ebike, it came with a shelf, a basket or panniers cost us $30. This is enough for a few days of groceries, or to get to work We live between 2 minor state highways (4, 6 lanes) but the grocery is the in-between for us where roads have speed bumps to discourage through use. We can go grocery shopping at 2 different grocery stores, we're a quick bike away from a light rail station. We don't ride on sidewalks. We live near Atlanta, in an area where 8/10 would say it's too dangerous to bike.
dddddddd111 4y ago
> I love EVs. That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000. I don't love EVs yet, but I would love a reasonably priced electric motorcycle. I'm not even sure if overall they are greener with the current grid.
- 0x53 4y ago
  Look into the sondors meta cycle. Around $6500.
seltzered_ 4y ago
more than $2000, but https://www.litmotors.com/ https://www.litmotors.com/ was trying to do an enclosed self-balancing two-wheeler for a decade (their Founder/CEO has a pretty bad injury a few years ago) - supposedly they're reforming but we'll see.
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  Every few years I checkin to see how they’re doing, really would love to have one of these. With the way cars and SUVs are growing though I feel like more mass and crumple zones are necessary for a safe driving experience though
- mizzao 4y ago
  Yikes for the side impact collision...
  - pmontra 4y ago
    That kind of safety is not in the mind of any cyclist. How could it be?
NegativeLatency 4y ago
https://dutchbikes.nl/home/ https://dutchbikes.nl/home/
agumonkey 4y ago
It might come. People are buying bike cargo nowadays. A weathered electric powered would make sense.
notjulianjaynes 4y ago
A 30 mph ebike under $2k is absolutely doable. That's the top speed of mine, built with a Craigslist hardtail MTB and a $200 hub motor kit, powered by an electric lawn mower battery I found in an ewaste bin (14s, 7.5ah Samsung 25R cells). This battery can propel me about 8-10 miles (depending on wind, hills, etc.) at full throttle without much pedaling. The problem is 60 miles range @ 30 mph needs a lot of battery. You can't really pedal fast enough to add a meaningful amount of leg power here, and even if you could, the extra wind resistance compared to tucking your legs in is a wash at best. There's certainly room for efficiency improvements on my bike, but either way, enough battery to do 60 miles at 30mph SHOULD cost at least $1200-1500. Now if you want to go 20 mph that's a different story.
- benj111 4y ago
  Enclosed suggests fairings which suggests better aero. Aero drag really kicks in at 20+ mph so I would have thought it would be doable. Plus capable of 30mph and actually doing that all the time are 2 separate things. There's still going to be the slow pootling. So you can still peddle then. Plus you could hear it to actually pedal at 30mph
anon291 4y ago
> EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. Hopefully this doesn't result in EV accidents being more likely to have a fatality This isn't a matter of hope. Heavier things traveling the same speed have more momentum.. Momentum kills
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  > Momentum kills I'd say it's somewhere in between momentum and energy. A motorbike doing 300km/h is more dangerous than a car doing 35km/h or a concrete truck at walking pace.
caycep 4y ago
that being said, I'm wondering why companies don't double down on the BMW i3 model vs. the tesla X/Y/big SUV model? The i3 is 3000 lbs or less, and when it was discontinued, it had a bigger battery pack, and plenty of range and room for a family. In my mind, it's ideal...and it wasn't like there wasn't a market for it, as demand apparently was growing right up until end of production I otherwise agree that American cities and suburbs need a healthy injection of bicycling adoption, infrastructure and design.
- Hamuko 4y ago
  >The i3 is 3000 lbs or less, and when it was discontinued, it had a bigger battery pack Wikipedia says that the i3 had at best a 42 kWh battery pack. The smallest battery that Tesla will ship you inside a car these days is 60 kWh (Model 3 Standard Range).
  - caycep 4y ago
    I think that was the point of a recent article - Niedermayer, I think - most of the driving I do is commuting, and I don't really need more than the 150 mile range that 42 kWh pack gives you... The flip side is the smallest Tesla is 3700 lbs or so, vs i3 is a hair under 3000 Technologies evolve, though, so I feel like the next (potential) revolution is to use a light CFRP chassis like the i3 w/ next gen batteries.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  i3 is one of the vehicles that designers thought end user is a "eco freak" vs "normal person". It's pleasant to drive, but extremely ugly.
  - jtc331 4y ago
    I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. The i3 styling was clearly distinguished from other BMWs and not in a good way.
  - caycep 4y ago
    I was actually talking to a Volvo designer at a talk here - I am a huge Polestar One/Volvo Concept Coupe/P1800 design fan and wanted to ask him about continuing that line of design. his point was, that body shape, the classical "beautiful" profile - long hood, cabin all the way back, was really that way in order to accommodate large V8/V10 racing engines, large transmissions, etc. With EV's, no need to accommodate such things, and they could better economize the use of space. When the i3 first came out, I would be inclined to agree with you - it's the opposite of the E9 or the E46. But the late-generation models have been growing on me, once the context for which they were designed became more clear. The i3 interior is fantastic, though
bosswipe 4y ago
As a long time daily biker I don't understand the trend of heftier more powerful ebikes. Instead of bulking a bike up to me it makes more sense to slim cars down. I've been trying to find tiny electric two seater cars, but I've been disappointed in the lack of anything in the US, they're more available in europe and Japan. Actually now that I typed this comment out I think I understand the trend of heftier ebikes, it's a way to skirt the regulations around making a "street legal" vehicle, which is what prevents any innovation in the <$10k tiny car segment.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  > Actually now that I typed this comment out I think I understand the trend of heftier ebikes, it's a way to skirt the regulations around making a "street legal" vehicle, which is what prevents any innovation in the <$10k tiny car segment. Yeah. American regulations call monster trucks cars, they don't have cars and they call LEVs bicycles.
sz4kerto 4y ago
Renault Twizy was quite popular for short distances here in Europe.
- tecleandor 4y ago
  I see the Renault Ami much better for this use. - It's bigger (seats two tall people very comfortably. Or one plus your shopping.) - It's half the price (12K€ for the Twizy vs 7K€ for the Ami) - It has windows :P - There's a "cargo" version (it substitutes the second seat for a cargo space). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb9-pbLk3Go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb9-pbLk3Go
Arainach 4y ago
Nothing should be going 30mph on pedestrian infrastructure. If you want to go 30mph, you're going on real roads with real cars. I own an eBike, love it, and use it to commute, but 20mph is already too much around pedestrians.
- DrBazza 4y ago
  Fwiw typical bike speeds are about 12mph Which is the speed of a marathon runner and I wouldn’t want one of those running into me either. https://www.fetcheveryone.com/blog/3/2022/8/454264 https://www.fetcheveryone.com/blog/3/2022/8/454264
wenc 4y ago
There's this but it's $9995 and 20mph. https://veemo.ca/ https://veemo.ca/
chroma 4y ago
> EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. This is not true. The Tesla Model 3 is the same weight as a BMW 3 series (~3,600-4,100lbs depending on trim level). Yes EVs carry a half ton of batteries, but they get rid of the engine block, transmission, starter motor, fuel tank, alternator, exhaust system, and many other parts. Also many combustion vehicles made today are hybrids, meaning they also carry batteries and large electric motors (though not as large as a pure EV).
- benj111 4y ago
  I thought EVs still had a 12v battery. Is that not charged via an alternator? I admit it seems more sensible to charge it direct from the battery pack, but then it seems more sensible to me to do away with the 12v battery all together. So if you're going to have a 12v battery it may aswell be completely independent of the main battery pack.
  - oyashirochama 4y ago
    They do but it is typically smaller or even a LiFe battery which is nearly as light as lithium but has most of the high crank and 12v nominal application power needs, with larger charge windows and equal or higher discharge cycles.
    - benj111 4y ago
      The parent was talking about saving the weight of the alternator. That's what I was asking about rather than the battery. Why would you need high crank for an ev???
  - audunw 4y ago
    > Is that not charged via an alternator? No, it's generally directly from main battery pack when the car is turned on, or when the car is charging. I would guses some models can also charge it now and then when the car is off, since some models are always connected to a cellular network. > but then it seems more sensible to me to do away with the 12v battery all together. No, no, no.. You need 12V when the car is off (for talking to key fob at the very least), but you probably don't want a DC-DC converter running from the main battery all the time. If you have trouble getting power from the main battery, it'll be hard to diagnose when none of the electronics work anymore. Having a redundant battery is a very good idea. It's also a redundancy in case of emergency (some cars have buttons you can press to call emergency services). I seem to remember Elon talking about removing it (of course), but they haven't yet, and I doubt they ever will.
fulafel 4y ago
A good next step to transition vehicles to reasonable energy economy would be to start regulating down their mass and size, and update accident liability to heavily favour small vehicles. like emissions have been so far. This would enable sanely sized vehicles to safely coexist in traffic.
black_puppydog 4y ago
> This additional housing will increase density, making bikes only more viable It will also increase the tax revenue per infrastructure spend ratio, since denser areas have more tax revenue generated from multiple households and businesses, for nearly the same amount of sewage, roads, electricity etc.
Gijs4g 4y ago
Try a VanMoof, it costs slightly more but is worth it.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
I would guess some fraction of that cardiovascular issue is due to urban air pollution, which EVs (and renewables) will improve to the extent that people will be able to draw a causal link by looking at areas that switched to EVs at different times. But cycling is great, more people should do it. And this is why I like the idea of 'gas tax' being replaced with something that accounts for all the remaining externalities of urban driving.
ForHackernews 4y ago
> Something like that which can go 30mph and had space for 2 days of groceries This kind of thing already exists outside the USA. Here's a $1200 "car" you can order off Alibaba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBz9zLFEa70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBz9zLFEa70 And some people are trying to make more stylish "apple-esque" versions to appeal to Americans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpiH-Y-HOvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpiH-Y-HOvE
robertlagrant 4y ago
> Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars ideally, as opposed to transition to EVs from ICE, but I suppose baby steps are warranted here. Moving to electrified cars is an enormous step. It might look babyish now it's happening, but it wasn't even on the table 15 years ago.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
Don't forget "but there will be more bicycles" is a much stupider and easier to call out excuse for trying to prevent affordable housing than "it will make traffic worse" Also vehicles that are easier to stop are far better for small business owners and local economies. Also keep in mind traffic speed is usually somewhere south of 20mph. You can get places quicker at 18mph non stop than you can at 30 or 50 with congestion caused by traffic control that has lower throughput on a 4 lane each way intersection than a single bike lane with no control. 30mph vehicles are LEVs not bicycles and should be treated as motorscooters or whichever similar law framework is available and not allowed on bike paths or shared paths. That said, I fully support LEV only zones possibly where bicycles are allowed in a similar vein to how they are allowed on roads and possibly before bike only zones in less urban areas)
lm28469 4y ago
> Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars Won't happen, if anything we'll have more cars due to the rebound effect. It was a major chance to restructure everything and downscale our vehicles and associated infrastructures, we did the exact opposite, they're bigger, heavier, faster, harder to fix/work on, &c.
mlni 4y ago
There are a bunch of these four-wheel bikes (https://vokbikes.com/ https://vokbikes.com/) rolling around where I live. They're meant for commercial use and are slow enough for sidewalks and they do have a roof covering the rider. Cost more than $2000 though.
- driverdan 4y ago
  Four wheel bikes are technically illegal in some places. Texas, for example, considers anything with three or more wheels a motorcycle or car and requires that it be registered.
epage 4y ago
No idea if it is past vaporware but there is Elio motors
Tijdreiziger 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle
jimkleiber 4y ago
I'm surprised more people didn't reply to the enclosed part of your suggestion. One of the biggest advantages of a car for me is climate control: from wind, heat, cold, rain, snow, etc. Not just for me but also the items I'm carrying with me. I really just want an enclosed electric bike/motorcycle with climate control. I liked Arcimoto for a while until they stopped focusing on the full climate control and decided to charge $18k and above. So yes, please, an electric bicycle with climate control.
johannes1234321 4y ago
Further benefits: biking with proper infrastructure without cars is possible for children as well and for those who can't afford a car or (as eBike or tricycle) for the elder who don't want to drive anymore. This gives mobility to large groups of society.
bamboozled 4y ago
Also, heavier cars mean more tire dust.
timbit42 4y ago
The Organic Transit ELF and the BetterBike PEBL are enclosed electric trikes (two wheels in front, one in back) but are more expensive than your wish. Both are currently out of production for engineering improvements with plans for assembly lines to reduce the cost and prices. Organic Transit channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/OTvehicles https://www.youtube.com/user/OTvehicles BetterBike channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59bSWio0f0eSPd5MPpEPAg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59bSWio0f0eSPd5MPpEPAg
- gregable 4y ago
  In a similar bucket is the Aptera I'd say, but also more expensive.
- asoneth 4y ago
  Came hear to mention the ELF and PBLE. It's shocking to me that someone would expect an enclosed battery-electric vehicle to cost anywhere close to $2k unless their mental image is a cheap electric bike with a rain cape or something? The ELF and PEBL start(ed) at $10k and while I could imagine that coming down a couple thousand dollars at high volumes I have trouble imagining what corners you could cut to hit a $2k or even $4k price point.
HN_is_for_memes 4y ago
I live 3 miles from work but I'd risk my life if I tired walking. There is a highway between us and the ONLY bridge over has no sidewalk, a big hill and 1,000 of idiots late for work who hate cyclests for some reason. Cities like Columbus Ohio are just terrible places to live unless you live car culture.
littlelamb 4y ago
The fact you even suggest that phasing out cars is possible, I cannot take your comment seriously. Outside if big cities this is not even a remote possibility, most people there travel big distances in various weather conditions on a daily basis. Even in big cities this seems unrealistic. Thinking for example of NYC, many folks travel fir work from the outer boroughs to Manhattan, from areas where public transit isn't readily available, and just taking the bike is not even realistic.
jeffalyanak 4y ago
In Europe there's a whole class of vehicles that are just enclosed quadricycles. They're limited to 45km/h and have some sort of weight limit, but they're great "city cars". A lot of electric ones have been popping up, although many of them are closer to the $5000-9000 price point.

hutzlibu 4y ago

"Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars ideally" I likely cycled more km, than I drove by car and I do not intend to change that, but for long distance trips with the whole family, a car is hard to beat or replace.

oblio 4y ago

> - EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. Extra: - more tire and road particulates pollution - more road wear (someone said something like road wear is the power of 4 of the weight of the vehicle, which makes extra weight particularly awful), ergo higher infra expenses

elicash 4y ago

Thoughts on LSVs?

endisneigh 4y ago
Helps with the accidents but otherwise has most of the same disadvantages as a car.

renewiltord 4y ago

Maybe the Smart EQ Fortwo? Hard to get in the US and out of your price point, but if you're more interested in the vehicle than the price.

endisneigh 4y ago
Funny that you mention that, I had a Smart Fortwo EV. Got destroyed by a Ford truck. I loved that little car.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  Bloody hell. Well I'm glad you're okay.

BuckRogers 4y ago

Taking advantage of bike lanes in cities is a huge advantage for a battery/motor assisted bicycle, but I do most of what you describe with a Yamaha XT250. Just don't go out if it looks like rain. You have your helmet and pack a raincoat in case you get unlucky. To carry some groceries you could easily rig a small rack on the back where you can attach/detach a grated plastic crate. Then put some in a backpack. I don't do all of that but I could easily do it. I'm at the stage of my life where owning a small truck like a Tacoma or Maverick makes a lot of sense due to the utility. You have a lot of good ideas. On your negatives for EVs, I'd say walking infrastructure can't really occur without living in a dense city. Pipedream otherwise. Acceleration is less of a problem rather than people not paying attention at all, smartphones. As far as the weight, that will go down over time as solid state batteries come around. I wouldn't trade my motorcycle for an EV motorcycle without significant advances, I also don't see interstate towing being overtaken by EVs anytime soon. You just can't beat a diesel for that whether it be in a pickup, van, or semi, and it will be tough to do so. Yet EVs in general are definitely inevitable as they are already better for countywide travel.

lstodd 4y ago
XT250 IMO is not very convenient for shopping. Something like Majesty 400 is much better, or even old 2T 100cc Neo's if you can find one. It's amazing how much stuff fits in under the saddle. And I once moved a full-size ironing board on the latter, just duct-taped it to a rear handle and the front. Can't go that crazy on a proper motorcycle.
- BuckRogers 4y ago
  I agree. It’s not the best choice probably but it’s what I have. I’m a dual sport fan, enjoying trail rides. There’s definitely better grocery getters. I did have a Yamaha moped years ago and it is surprising how much fits under those seats. They’re just so slippery on rocks and sand due to the small wheels on scooters. I remember taking a spill going around a corner just on pavement a couple times.
  - lstodd 4y ago

aeharding 4y ago

Rain isn't really a problem with the appropriate clothing. (Speaking as someone that rides year round for transportation in Wisconsin.) The only problem I've had is downpours can soak your shoes but I just have an extra pair of shoes at work and at home.

endisneigh 4y ago
I agree that rain isn't really a huge problem (though I still consider it a problem), but without enclosure you're unlikely to take random trips as you might not be able to change.
eyelidlessness 4y ago
Rain is definitely a problem for a vehicle which depends on lateral tilt to turn and which depends on inertia to stay upright. Speaking as someone who has ridden many years round in Seattle, where the roads lean along with the hills even where the hills aren’t that steep. Those turns are a mistake or an unexpected cross vehicle away from a crash on our driest days, but the rain really amplifies that danger.
- snuxoll 4y ago
  Rain wouldn't be such a problem if we had dedicated biking infrastructure ala The Netherlands. We need to rethink the design of our cities to move away from this car-dependent box we've put ourselves in, because just adopting EVs isn't enough.
- wenc 4y ago
  I've driven in Seattle in the rain, and some streets (especially near Pike Place Market) are so steep that once my wheels lost their grip and slipped and rolled downhill a little at an intersection. I'm not sure why it's even safe to design an intersection on a very steep road that's difficult to stop at. Water and slopes are not a good combination for road safety even for four-wheelers.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago

npunt 4y ago

Agree - eBikes solve so many problems if we could only create there infra for them. Aside from co2, which is partially offset by the emissions from materials and manufacture, the only thing EVs really have going for them is less brake dust. However even that may be offset by the additional tire wear due to their weight and which contributes more to poor air quality than ice engines do these days. EVs being heavier also means more road maintenance required. Basically EVs are just kicking the can down the road a little bit, within the confines of our culture and infrastructure, but do not solve our structural problems.

sephamorr 4y ago
You have to be very careful when talking about relative pollutant emissions. Yes, the average EV is heavier and results in more tire wear and tire dust, but note that these particles are much larger (pm10 or larger) than most ICE particulates (~pm2.5). Heavier particles fall out of the air much faster and don't get stuck in the bottom of lungs. Overall pm2.5 particles are far more harmful to human health once inhaled as well. Regarding maintenance, road wear is a high order function with axle weight - so trucks and weathering contribute the vast majority of wear. So light duty cars getting a bit heavier won't make much difference, and regulations already bound axle weights, so it won't be increasing for EV heavy duty vehicles. This all being said, the average American city and suburb suck and totally need to be reorganized around literally anything except the automobile. Visiting the Netherlands just made me sad...thinking this is how nice cities can be. I imagine the mental health benefits of such city planning could even outweigh the environmental ones.

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snuxoll 4y ago

> Bike infrastructure can be used for walking. Please, no more of this. Bicycles should be on their own dedicated right of way, mixing them with cars is dangerous for cyclists, but mixing bikes with pedestrians is dangerous for pedestrians. Multi-use paths are fine for recreation, but they are not transit infrastructure and should not be treated as such.

eyelidlessness 4y ago
As both a cyclist and pedestrian, I definitely prefer bikes off the sidewalk. Even conscientious cyclists who call “on your left” or whatever routinely underestimate the necessary reaction time and overestimate how far their voice will carry. Even if they get both of those right, they’ve frequently terrified my pup by just being faster and louder and larger than anything on foot she’s ever met. I’ve had to return home and restart our entire morning/evening because of this countless times. I don’t feel as strongly about separated bike infrastructure, mainly because my experience with it is that it’s more dangerous than riding in auto lanes, and that it creates an illusion of separation that both heightens that danger and heightens the dangerous attitudes of drivers trying to navigate it. I’m sure it’s better where the infrastructure is better, but where I live I choose to ride my bike away from those accommodations and right in traffic with the cars and drivers who flow together with me.
- crooked-v 4y ago
  > separated bike infrastructure > drivers trying to navigate it Well, there's your problem - it's not actually separated.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    Yep, that is exactly my problem.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    If you have a T junction, either you're going to have the car path going through the bike path, or you'll need a bridge or tunnel. And the best places for cycle commuting have high density - meaning more T junctions per mile. 'Truly separated' bike infrastructure isn't easy.

crooked-v 4y ago

> That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000. Something like that which can go 30mph and had space for 2 days of groceries would be enough for me to eliminate my car all together. You can already get exactly that kind of vehicle for relatively cheap, though not as cheap as you're proposing... it's called an electric golf cart or, for the upscale versions, an "electrified low-speed vehicle". They start at about $5,000 from US manufacturers, but you can cut that down to around $3,500-$4,000 (including shipping) if you're willing to order off Aliexpress.

endisneigh 4y ago
LSVs have basically all of the disadvantages of cars without any of the advantages considering used beaters are a thing imho.
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  Or a used smart car

hattmall 4y ago

What is an enclosed bicycle?? Maybe you could use a golf cart. You could get pretty close to 30 MPH and 60 Miles travel time for under $2k.

endisneigh 4y ago
A golf cart has to travel on the same roads as a car, except it's slower and less safe. No advantage really.
- fomine3 4y ago
  Slower is safer for pedestrians. It's safer alternative for (?) elders than a full featured car.
  - powersnail 4y ago
    Changing lanes will be pretty difficult if the golf cart is much slower than general traffic.
    - fomine3 4y ago
      Yeah it's pain as a car driver. There's no ideal solution.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  I am currently living in a seaside town where golf carts are a normal means of transportation. You see them out and about every day. On the main highway through town, they drive on the shoulder; everywhere else, they take a lane just like cars do. The people here clearly believe they have some advantage.
- Arainach 4y ago
  Anything travelling 30mph has to travel on the roads. Class 3 ebike owners who ride on shared use trails are a menace and a serious threat - to pedestrians, to other cyclists, and to any goodwill cycling has in the community.

smileysteve 4y ago

We have a $400 (when on sale) ebike, it came with a shelf, a basket or panniers cost us $30. This is enough for a few days of groceries, or to get to work We live between 2 minor state highways (4, 6 lanes) but the grocery is the in-between for us where roads have speed bumps to discourage through use. We can go grocery shopping at 2 different grocery stores, we're a quick bike away from a light rail station. We don't ride on sidewalks. We live near Atlanta, in an area where 8/10 would say it's too dangerous to bike.

dddddddd111 4y ago

> I love EVs. That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000. I don't love EVs yet, but I would love a reasonably priced electric motorcycle. I'm not even sure if overall they are greener with the current grid.

0x53 4y ago
Look into the sondors meta cycle. Around $6500.

seltzered_ 4y ago

more than $2000, but https://www.litmotors.com/ https://www.litmotors.com/ was trying to do an enclosed self-balancing two-wheeler for a decade (their Founder/CEO has a pretty bad injury a few years ago) - supposedly they're reforming but we'll see.

NegativeLatency 4y ago
Every few years I checkin to see how they’re doing, really would love to have one of these. With the way cars and SUVs are growing though I feel like more mass and crumple zones are necessary for a safe driving experience though
mizzao 4y ago
Yikes for the side impact collision...
- pmontra 4y ago
  That kind of safety is not in the mind of any cyclist. How could it be?

NegativeLatency 4y ago

https://dutchbikes.nl/home/ https://dutchbikes.nl/home/

agumonkey 4y ago

It might come. People are buying bike cargo nowadays. A weathered electric powered would make sense.

notjulianjaynes 4y ago

A 30 mph ebike under $2k is absolutely doable. That's the top speed of mine, built with a Craigslist hardtail MTB and a $200 hub motor kit, powered by an electric lawn mower battery I found in an ewaste bin (14s, 7.5ah Samsung 25R cells). This battery can propel me about 8-10 miles (depending on wind, hills, etc.) at full throttle without much pedaling. The problem is 60 miles range @ 30 mph needs a lot of battery. You can't really pedal fast enough to add a meaningful amount of leg power here, and even if you could, the extra wind resistance compared to tucking your legs in is a wash at best. There's certainly room for efficiency improvements on my bike, but either way, enough battery to do 60 miles at 30mph SHOULD cost at least $1200-1500. Now if you want to go 20 mph that's a different story.

benj111 4y ago
Enclosed suggests fairings which suggests better aero. Aero drag really kicks in at 20+ mph so I would have thought it would be doable. Plus capable of 30mph and actually doing that all the time are 2 separate things. There's still going to be the slow pootling. So you can still peddle then. Plus you could hear it to actually pedal at 30mph

anon291 4y ago

> EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. Hopefully this doesn't result in EV accidents being more likely to have a fatality This isn't a matter of hope. Heavier things traveling the same speed have more momentum.. Momentum kills

Schroedingersat 4y ago
> Momentum kills I'd say it's somewhere in between momentum and energy. A motorbike doing 300km/h is more dangerous than a car doing 35km/h or a concrete truck at walking pace.

caycep 4y ago

that being said, I'm wondering why companies don't double down on the BMW i3 model vs. the tesla X/Y/big SUV model? The i3 is 3000 lbs or less, and when it was discontinued, it had a bigger battery pack, and plenty of range and room for a family. In my mind, it's ideal...and it wasn't like there wasn't a market for it, as demand apparently was growing right up until end of production I otherwise agree that American cities and suburbs need a healthy injection of bicycling adoption, infrastructure and design.

Hamuko 4y ago
>The i3 is 3000 lbs or less, and when it was discontinued, it had a bigger battery pack Wikipedia says that the i3 had at best a 42 kWh battery pack. The smallest battery that Tesla will ship you inside a car these days is 60 kWh (Model 3 Standard Range).
- caycep 4y ago
  I think that was the point of a recent article - Niedermayer, I think - most of the driving I do is commuting, and I don't really need more than the 150 mile range that 42 kWh pack gives you... The flip side is the smallest Tesla is 3700 lbs or so, vs i3 is a hair under 3000 Technologies evolve, though, so I feel like the next (potential) revolution is to use a light CFRP chassis like the i3 w/ next gen batteries.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
i3 is one of the vehicles that designers thought end user is a "eco freak" vs "normal person". It's pleasant to drive, but extremely ugly.
- jtc331 4y ago
  I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. The i3 styling was clearly distinguished from other BMWs and not in a good way.
- caycep 4y ago
  I was actually talking to a Volvo designer at a talk here - I am a huge Polestar One/Volvo Concept Coupe/P1800 design fan and wanted to ask him about continuing that line of design. his point was, that body shape, the classical "beautiful" profile - long hood, cabin all the way back, was really that way in order to accommodate large V8/V10 racing engines, large transmissions, etc. With EV's, no need to accommodate such things, and they could better economize the use of space. When the i3 first came out, I would be inclined to agree with you - it's the opposite of the E9 or the E46. But the late-generation models have been growing on me, once the context for which they were designed became more clear. The i3 interior is fantastic, though

bosswipe 4y ago

As a long time daily biker I don't understand the trend of heftier more powerful ebikes. Instead of bulking a bike up to me it makes more sense to slim cars down. I've been trying to find tiny electric two seater cars, but I've been disappointed in the lack of anything in the US, they're more available in europe and Japan. Actually now that I typed this comment out I think I understand the trend of heftier ebikes, it's a way to skirt the regulations around making a "street legal" vehicle, which is what prevents any innovation in the <$10k tiny car segment.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
> Actually now that I typed this comment out I think I understand the trend of heftier ebikes, it's a way to skirt the regulations around making a "street legal" vehicle, which is what prevents any innovation in the <$10k tiny car segment. Yeah. American regulations call monster trucks cars, they don't have cars and they call LEVs bicycles.

sz4kerto 4y ago

Renault Twizy was quite popular for short distances here in Europe.

tecleandor 4y ago
I see the Renault Ami much better for this use. - It's bigger (seats two tall people very comfortably. Or one plus your shopping.) - It's half the price (12K€ for the Twizy vs 7K€ for the Ami) - It has windows :P - There's a "cargo" version (it substitutes the second seat for a cargo space). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb9-pbLk3Go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb9-pbLk3Go

Arainach 4y ago

Nothing should be going 30mph on pedestrian infrastructure. If you want to go 30mph, you're going on real roads with real cars. I own an eBike, love it, and use it to commute, but 20mph is already too much around pedestrians.

DrBazza 4y ago
Fwiw typical bike speeds are about 12mph Which is the speed of a marathon runner and I wouldn’t want one of those running into me either. https://www.fetcheveryone.com/blog/3/2022/8/454264 https://www.fetcheveryone.com/blog/3/2022/8/454264

wenc 4y ago

There's this but it's $9995 and 20mph. https://veemo.ca/ https://veemo.ca/

chroma 4y ago

> EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. This is not true. The Tesla Model 3 is the same weight as a BMW 3 series (~3,600-4,100lbs depending on trim level). Yes EVs carry a half ton of batteries, but they get rid of the engine block, transmission, starter motor, fuel tank, alternator, exhaust system, and many other parts. Also many combustion vehicles made today are hybrids, meaning they also carry batteries and large electric motors (though not as large as a pure EV).

benj111 4y ago
I thought EVs still had a 12v battery. Is that not charged via an alternator? I admit it seems more sensible to charge it direct from the battery pack, but then it seems more sensible to me to do away with the 12v battery all together. So if you're going to have a 12v battery it may aswell be completely independent of the main battery pack.
- oyashirochama 4y ago
  They do but it is typically smaller or even a LiFe battery which is nearly as light as lithium but has most of the high crank and 12v nominal application power needs, with larger charge windows and equal or higher discharge cycles.
  - benj111 4y ago
    The parent was talking about saving the weight of the alternator. That's what I was asking about rather than the battery. Why would you need high crank for an ev???
- audunw 4y ago
  > Is that not charged via an alternator? No, it's generally directly from main battery pack when the car is turned on, or when the car is charging. I would guses some models can also charge it now and then when the car is off, since some models are always connected to a cellular network. > but then it seems more sensible to me to do away with the 12v battery all together. No, no, no.. You need 12V when the car is off (for talking to key fob at the very least), but you probably don't want a DC-DC converter running from the main battery all the time. If you have trouble getting power from the main battery, it'll be hard to diagnose when none of the electronics work anymore. Having a redundant battery is a very good idea. It's also a redundancy in case of emergency (some cars have buttons you can press to call emergency services). I seem to remember Elon talking about removing it (of course), but they haven't yet, and I doubt they ever will.

fulafel 4y ago

A good next step to transition vehicles to reasonable energy economy would be to start regulating down their mass and size, and update accident liability to heavily favour small vehicles. like emissions have been so far. This would enable sanely sized vehicles to safely coexist in traffic.

black_puppydog 4y ago

> This additional housing will increase density, making bikes only more viable It will also increase the tax revenue per infrastructure spend ratio, since denser areas have more tax revenue generated from multiple households and businesses, for nearly the same amount of sewage, roads, electricity etc.

Gijs4g 4y ago

Try a VanMoof, it costs slightly more but is worth it.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

I would guess some fraction of that cardiovascular issue is due to urban air pollution, which EVs (and renewables) will improve to the extent that people will be able to draw a causal link by looking at areas that switched to EVs at different times. But cycling is great, more people should do it. And this is why I like the idea of 'gas tax' being replaced with something that accounts for all the remaining externalities of urban driving.

ForHackernews 4y ago

> Something like that which can go 30mph and had space for 2 days of groceries This kind of thing already exists outside the USA. Here's a $1200 "car" you can order off Alibaba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBz9zLFEa70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBz9zLFEa70 And some people are trying to make more stylish "apple-esque" versions to appeal to Americans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpiH-Y-HOvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpiH-Y-HOvE

robertlagrant 4y ago

> Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars ideally, as opposed to transition to EVs from ICE, but I suppose baby steps are warranted here. Moving to electrified cars is an enormous step. It might look babyish now it's happening, but it wasn't even on the table 15 years ago.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

Don't forget "but there will be more bicycles" is a much stupider and easier to call out excuse for trying to prevent affordable housing than "it will make traffic worse" Also vehicles that are easier to stop are far better for small business owners and local economies. Also keep in mind traffic speed is usually somewhere south of 20mph. You can get places quicker at 18mph non stop than you can at 30 or 50 with congestion caused by traffic control that has lower throughput on a 4 lane each way intersection than a single bike lane with no control. 30mph vehicles are LEVs not bicycles and should be treated as motorscooters or whichever similar law framework is available and not allowed on bike paths or shared paths. That said, I fully support LEV only zones possibly where bicycles are allowed in a similar vein to how they are allowed on roads and possibly before bike only zones in less urban areas)

lm28469 4y ago

> Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars Won't happen, if anything we'll have more cars due to the rebound effect. It was a major chance to restructure everything and downscale our vehicles and associated infrastructures, we did the exact opposite, they're bigger, heavier, faster, harder to fix/work on, &c.

mlni 4y ago

There are a bunch of these four-wheel bikes (https://vokbikes.com/ https://vokbikes.com/) rolling around where I live. They're meant for commercial use and are slow enough for sidewalks and they do have a roof covering the rider. Cost more than $2000 though.

driverdan 4y ago
Four wheel bikes are technically illegal in some places. Texas, for example, considers anything with three or more wheels a motorcycle or car and requires that it be registered.

epage 4y ago

No idea if it is past vaporware but there is Elio motors

Tijdreiziger 4y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle

jimkleiber 4y ago

I'm surprised more people didn't reply to the enclosed part of your suggestion. One of the biggest advantages of a car for me is climate control: from wind, heat, cold, rain, snow, etc. Not just for me but also the items I'm carrying with me. I really just want an enclosed electric bike/motorcycle with climate control. I liked Arcimoto for a while until they stopped focusing on the full climate control and decided to charge $18k and above. So yes, please, an electric bicycle with climate control.

johannes1234321 4y ago

Further benefits: biking with proper infrastructure without cars is possible for children as well and for those who can't afford a car or (as eBike or tricycle) for the elder who don't want to drive anymore. This gives mobility to large groups of society.

bamboozled 4y ago

Also, heavier cars mean more tire dust.

timbit42 4y ago

The Organic Transit ELF and the BetterBike PEBL are enclosed electric trikes (two wheels in front, one in back) but are more expensive than your wish. Both are currently out of production for engineering improvements with plans for assembly lines to reduce the cost and prices. Organic Transit channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/OTvehicles https://www.youtube.com/user/OTvehicles BetterBike channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59bSWio0f0eSPd5MPpEPAg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59bSWio0f0eSPd5MPpEPAg

gregable 4y ago
In a similar bucket is the Aptera I'd say, but also more expensive.
asoneth 4y ago
Came hear to mention the ELF and PBLE. It's shocking to me that someone would expect an enclosed battery-electric vehicle to cost anywhere close to $2k unless their mental image is a cheap electric bike with a rain cape or something? The ELF and PEBL start(ed) at $10k and while I could imagine that coming down a couple thousand dollars at high volumes I have trouble imagining what corners you could cut to hit a $2k or even $4k price point.

HN_is_for_memes 4y ago

I live 3 miles from work but I'd risk my life if I tired walking. There is a highway between us and the ONLY bridge over has no sidewalk, a big hill and 1,000 of idiots late for work who hate cyclests for some reason. Cities like Columbus Ohio are just terrible places to live unless you live car culture.

littlelamb 4y ago

The fact you even suggest that phasing out cars is possible, I cannot take your comment seriously. Outside if big cities this is not even a remote possibility, most people there travel big distances in various weather conditions on a daily basis. Even in big cities this seems unrealistic. Thinking for example of NYC, many folks travel fir work from the outer boroughs to Manhattan, from areas where public transit isn't readily available, and just taking the bike is not even realistic.

jeffalyanak 4y ago

In Europe there's a whole class of vehicles that are just enclosed quadricycles. They're limited to 45km/h and have some sort of weight limit, but they're great "city cars". A lot of electric ones have been popping up, although many of them are closer to the $5000-9000 price point.