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There's no real winning these on a point by point basis because the entire system of wage labor is set up to separate you from the value you create for owners a

There's no real winning these on a point by point basis because the entire system of wage labor is set up to separate you from the value you create for owners as much as the market will bear. Employers agree with this openly every time they talk about how this is a market, though they avoid the charged language and obfuscate it by drawing focus to other ideas. These kind of logical points from employers are not rules or based in any reality except for ones where they simply have power over you to suppress your pay. Hence why these "rules" shift over the years as standards shift in favor or away from workers. These are among myriad tricks for fighting a class war against labor and maximizing extracted value. The best way for workers to beat these pay systems is to apply organized pressure collectively, not for you to have a private conversation with your boss or HR.

pyrodactyl 4y ago
Thanks for verbalizing this so well, I've been thinking the same recently and that's what's causing me to withdraw from my work.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  Remember also that they prefer demoralized workers leave on their own since there's no need to provide exit compensation/benefits. Look out for employers "quiet quitting" on YOU.
  - pyrodactyl 4y ago
    Quiet firing as it is being referred to if I'm not wrong. And it is working.
seibelj 4y ago
My problem with these arguments is that there is supposedly a permanent class of “owners” and one of “workers”, and the workers are completely without agency nor ability to become owners themselves. Especially in software, a good idea can be converted into a business with minimal friction no matter where you live. America has helped created more Latino millionaires than any other business through McDonald’s franchising model. These millionaires are now “owners”. The Marxist class-based ideology ignores that fortunes are made and lost dynamically and your situation in life is not static. Even worse, once your viewpoint shifts to class-struggle you became a miserable defeatist lacking hope for the future. There is a reason communism died and Venezuela / Argentina are economic basket cases - once you view the economy as a zero-sum struggle, you start scheming to steal from productive private enterprise, and eventually everything collapses into shit. My recommendation to OP, if you seriously want to raise your station in life, is to start hustling. Find a new job that pays more, start your own business, or immigrate to a higher paying country. No one is going to hand you anything. You have identified a problem - “my company pays me too little and I deserve more”. Option A is to give up, become demoralized, blame society, became a miserable complainer. Option 2 is to strategize about your situation and figure out a path to better compensation. Good luck!
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  There's a difference between an indie dev flipping an idea into a profitable app with their own hands vs say the approach taken by the Fast CEO. I didn't even get into ideology stuff or politics, only a material description of what he's seeing - but looks like you are repeating a bunch of rw talking points there without helping the OP.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      nah I gave OP a bunch of specific tactics for increasing pay that don't require them to necessarily rip themselves out of their current community and move etc. You're also getting needlessly and inaccurately nasty, you don't know me at all but you are happy to assign a bunch of labels to "my ilk" just because I don't simp for a boss. I'm also not a socialist or a marxist edit: thanks!
      - seibelj 4y ago
        Best of luck to your software development union collectively organizing to raise wages
- pyrodactyl 4y ago
  I see that my post might come off as complaining, but I asure you it's not the case. I do "hustle" as you call it, and that's why I wanted to know other opinions on this. And I'm not coming at this from a class based marxist ideology. I'm asking for equal pay for equal work, which isn't a radical idea. Also, though I do work in a software company, I am not a developer or deal with serious tech in anyway.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    Your other post said you were demoralized and “quiet quitting”, or collecting a paycheck and fucking around. That may work for a while, but long term you will be unfulfilled and miserable. It’s time for a change
amelius 4y ago
> The best way for workers to beat these pay systems is to apply organized pressure collectively Telling HN could be a first step for that.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  ya it’s a place to practice maybe but limited impact to discourse chatter esp in such a hostile forum for it. what are your second/third steps
cercatrova 4y ago
Or they could switch jobs to a company that pays more rather than spending potentially years organizing which may not even work in the end.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  they've been given a bunch of tactics. and sometimes it takes weeks rather than years.

pyrodactyl 4y ago

Thanks for verbalizing this so well, I've been thinking the same recently and that's what's causing me to withdraw from my work.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
Remember also that they prefer demoralized workers leave on their own since there's no need to provide exit compensation/benefits. Look out for employers "quiet quitting" on YOU.
- pyrodactyl 4y ago
  Quiet firing as it is being referred to if I'm not wrong. And it is working.

seibelj 4y ago

My problem with these arguments is that there is supposedly a permanent class of “owners” and one of “workers”, and the workers are completely without agency nor ability to become owners themselves. Especially in software, a good idea can be converted into a business with minimal friction no matter where you live. America has helped created more Latino millionaires than any other business through McDonald’s franchising model. These millionaires are now “owners”. The Marxist class-based ideology ignores that fortunes are made and lost dynamically and your situation in life is not static. Even worse, once your viewpoint shifts to class-struggle you became a miserable defeatist lacking hope for the future. There is a reason communism died and Venezuela / Argentina are economic basket cases - once you view the economy as a zero-sum struggle, you start scheming to steal from productive private enterprise, and eventually everything collapses into shit. My recommendation to OP, if you seriously want to raise your station in life, is to start hustling. Find a new job that pays more, start your own business, or immigrate to a higher paying country. No one is going to hand you anything. You have identified a problem - “my company pays me too little and I deserve more”. Option A is to give up, become demoralized, blame society, became a miserable complainer. Option 2 is to strategize about your situation and figure out a path to better compensation. Good luck!

wahnfrieden 4y ago
There's a difference between an indie dev flipping an idea into a profitable app with their own hands vs say the approach taken by the Fast CEO. I didn't even get into ideology stuff or politics, only a material description of what he's seeing - but looks like you are repeating a bunch of rw talking points there without helping the OP.
- seibelj 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    nah I gave OP a bunch of specific tactics for increasing pay that don't require them to necessarily rip themselves out of their current community and move etc. You're also getting needlessly and inaccurately nasty, you don't know me at all but you are happy to assign a bunch of labels to "my ilk" just because I don't simp for a boss. I'm also not a socialist or a marxist edit: thanks!
    - seibelj 4y ago
      Best of luck to your software development union collectively organizing to raise wages
pyrodactyl 4y ago
I see that my post might come off as complaining, but I asure you it's not the case. I do "hustle" as you call it, and that's why I wanted to know other opinions on this. And I'm not coming at this from a class based marxist ideology. I'm asking for equal pay for equal work, which isn't a radical idea. Also, though I do work in a software company, I am not a developer or deal with serious tech in anyway.
- seibelj 4y ago
  Your other post said you were demoralized and “quiet quitting”, or collecting a paycheck and fucking around. That may work for a while, but long term you will be unfulfilled and miserable. It’s time for a change

amelius 4y ago

> The best way for workers to beat these pay systems is to apply organized pressure collectively Telling HN could be a first step for that.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
ya it’s a place to practice maybe but limited impact to discourse chatter esp in such a hostile forum for it. what are your second/third steps

cercatrova 4y ago

Or they could switch jobs to a company that pays more rather than spending potentially years organizing which may not even work in the end.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
they've been given a bunch of tactics. and sometimes it takes weeks rather than years.