10 ms·

From Prison to Programming

147 points by adamgordonbell 4y ago

adamgordonbell 4y ago
This is the story of how Rick Wolter learned to program in prison and ultimately became a professional iOS developer. I figure any story that involves smuggling a python interpreter into prison on a USB stick seems like it might interest people here. But I think its also an important story because it’s about how software development can be life changing and lift people up out of hard situations.
- adamgordonbell 4y ago
  Oh, also Rick has some of the most practical advice on learning programming, and transition to a professional dev that I've seen. I know it’s not popular to just talk about grinding, the overwork culture is not popular. I get that, this is a different space. You want this shit? You got to grind. You’re going to have to do it on the weekends, you’re going to have to lock in. I’m sure someone’s going to be like, “Oh, no you don’t. I don’t have to. don’t put that pressure on them,” that’s fine. But to me, when you come from a background, especially if you’re a felon, but even if you’re not a felon, you don’t have a college that’s going to give you any kind of signal. Everyone talks about the college debt but your local community college isn’t that expensive. And then, that way, maybe you could just cut your work down to 10, 20 hours and then spend the rest of time coding. You focus on fundamentals first. Data structures, control flow, that kind of thing and stick to that for a short period of time. Maybe a month, month and a half, just do that basic stuff. It’s not popular, people want to see things on their screen, they want to say they built a thing but you’ve got to get those fundamentals first and there’s so many free options, Coursera, freeCodeCamp. And then, once you get some fundamentals, then you can decide on the platform. And once you pick your platform, just focus and stick to it. If you’re building Ruby on Rails, do that every day but make sure you’re building it. Hands on the keyboard, watch a tutorial then do the tutorial again but change some things then try to recreate what you built in the tutorial while not looking, that kind of thing. Because that’s the main thing is getting your skills up.
  - chrisbrandow 4y ago
    I have tried to summarize my advice as a mid career person who switched to programming. iOS. Rick has done so more perfectly than I have ever been able to. I highly endorse his comments here.
  - kodah 4y ago
    This is solid advice for anyone coming here without a degree. I say that because it mostly summarizes what I feel made me successful.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  So I was talking to a cop, because I do in fact talk to cops all the time, talked about prison, like convicts pretending to be sick for a bit, I told him that's like their vacation. Then escape came up, Marshal Service came up. I told him, dude rather stay right in my cell than being hunted by the Marshal Service. Dude like Wyatt Earp? The only escape from Wyatt Earp, the only safe harbor, the real place you can go, is stay right where you are, in your cell. So this is a sick hack, that's exactly what this forum is about. Hacker News.
jmclnx 4y ago
I know a few people who were in prison, some for serious crimes. Based upon my very unscientific sample, many of these guys were pretty smart. It makes me wonder how their environment in school (peers and/or teachers) along with social pressure put some of them on that path. I hear if smart people are not engaged in classes, they get bored rather quickly and start doing poorly. When I was young, I remember many times teachers would focus on the kids having a hard time learning, which is understandable. But some of the smarter kids may decide "why bother" when not given attention they may crave.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  For me it had nothing to do with attention... if you let me read my books quietly in class while you're wasting my time with a lecture I can absorb in two minutes at home, we don't have a problem. I'll show up and pass your test. Most of my teachers understood this and got out of my way. The ones who didn't understand caused me no end of problems in their attempts to force me to conform to expectations I never signed off on. I was the smartest (read: just the most motivated) kid at most of the schools I went to and also among the most frequently written up, punished or suspended. I had a reputation for getting sent to the office at least once every two weeks, inevitably due to some form of "willful disobedience", which was just me refusing to buckle to any perceived narcissism or institutional coercion foisted upon me. Authority figures either hated that they could not control me, or warmly accepted that if they just left me alone I would pass their stupid tests with flying colors. It wasn't until my last two years of high school, when I was homeless and attending on my own cognizance, that teachers finally backed the fuck off and realized what they were dealing with. Except a single teacher. My transcripts were illegally altered by a teacher who felt that she had to "win" against me, and ultimately caused me 10 years of economic hardship after high school. I passed every class, had the highest test scores. and she still found a way to rob me of the multiple full-ride scholarship opportunities I had received for several engineering colleges, just to put a boot down on my face one last time on my way out. This was substantial enough to sue the school department over, but when you're homeless and your parents are drug addicts, you don't get these opportunities. This is what an under-stimulated individual with no support structure looks like. And I felt the concerted institutional effort every single step of the way to push me down and grind me into submission, to teach me I was a criminal for thinking for myself. I have a much more tolerant view of many forms of criminal behavior because of this experience and that is no accident.
buf 4y ago
I've also been to prison. My story is homeless at 20, no friends or family, in debt about $20k and just got out of prison as a convicted felon. Now I've built 2.5 unicorns, one of which I helped start. Right now, I've started two side projects that are nearing the $1M ARR (combined). Programming is a great leveler in today's world. I cannot express how lucky I am to have found it early in my life. I have a great desire to give back, and somehow fix recidivism in the USA, but it feels so unreachable. I've heard that 70M Jobs was shutting down, and I reached out to the owner, but he brushed me off in an email. At some point, I'd like to give it a real shot.
- JohnCurran 4y ago
  If you want to give back, consider hiring from the organization Rick (subject of the podcast) started - Underdog Devs. It’s a loosely collected group of mentors and mentees with a small dedicated group of full-time learners on a stipend program The #1 challenge, by far, faced by the org is hiring and placement into companies for cohort graduates and mentees. If you’re able, consider posting job listings in the UD slack https://www.underdogdevs.org/ https://www.underdogdevs.org/ *I am part of the group as a mentor and its been on the whole an incredibly positive experience
  - buf 4y ago
    I'm in. Just DMed the UD twitter account to get an invite into the slack group.
    - JohnCurran 4y ago
      That’s awesome - If, for some reason, they don’t get back to you let me know and I will get you into the Slack
      - buf 4y ago
        Okay, will do. Just in case, you can send the invite to ex [at] siliconvict com
  - 4y ago
deeg 4y ago
Ex-cons have a tough time getting jobs and this can help lead to recidivism. It seems like programming would be a great way to keep felons from going back to prison. Getting paid to WFH on an open source project would be low risk.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- paulpauper 4y ago
  most people have a tough time getting goods jobs. it's not uncommon for many people to apply some a single mid-salary opening.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lostboomerang 4y ago
Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph "Life’s Not Fair". Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so teaching felons programming is a great way to reduce recidivism". This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be? When media corporations started laying off journalists in droves a few years later, the journalists did not find "Learn to code" suggestions useful or even funny. A more general solution to reduce recidivism should probably consist of two initiatives: 1) Educate felons when they're in prison. It doesn't have to be programming. It can be a craft, something academic, programming (if they feel like it) or some other skill. Whatever. 2) Reform the prison system, so inmates are treated as humans. E.g. with private corporations running prisons in the US, they have a strong motivation to create "recurring guests". Contrast this with e.g. prisons in Scandinavia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IepJqxRCZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IepJqxRCZY) that have the lowest rates of recidivism. We know how to reduce recidivism. It is not an easy "learn to code" exercise. But are the US willing to make the changes necessary to create meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism - or shall we continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the bootstraps! We found one guy who did it, and so can you!" stories?
- paulpauper 4y ago
  This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be? Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. I think instead those miners were offered vocational training, which included coding. This was in 2017. maybe this is what they were talking about https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering-shows-challenges-of-teaching-coal-miners-to-code/ https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering...
  - ejb999 4y ago
    >>Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. Then I guess you really didn't look to hard: https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/476391-biden-tells-coal-miners-to-learn-to-code/ https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/47... snip: "During a rally yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden spoke to a crowd in Derry, N.H., a town that many miners call home. He acknowledged the economic setbacks and job insecurity that coal miners face these days, and gave them some advice: learn to code."
adam_gyroscope 4y ago
I’m a mentor for Underdog Devs and love it! Happy to answer any questions.
accnumnplus1 4y ago
Religious belief. The way to heaven. Does any other profession have such a high opinion of itself?
remote_phone 4y ago
I think the biggest problem prisons have is that you collect large groups of criminals and let them hang out together. It breeds an even more concentrated form of criminal. Often times minor criminals need to join racist gangs just to survive which Is inhumane. I think they should all be separated from each other. They should be put in single cells, and given access to as much education as they want, and just basically put on time out for weeks, months, years. Let them chat with their families and understand the hurt they did. Let them meditate on what they want to do with Their lives after. But keep them separated. It makes things safer for guards as well, lowering the tension. What we are doing now is useless, inhumane, and counterproductive.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  Solitary confinement is literally inhumane and drives people to suicide. This is one of the only realistic suggestions I can imagine that would make the US prison system worse.
  - RickWolter 4y ago
    just want to add that you are correct imo. confinement was overall the very worst experience of my 18 years in prison.
    - sgt 4y ago
      I can imagine that is true. I think OP has some rationale, but he/she has done very little second order thinking of the consequences of such isolation. It's very easy to make such harsh armchair statements on the Internet, but I think more reflection is needed.
      - remote_phone 4y ago
        As I explained above I didn’t mean solitary confinement. I meant simply not mixing with other prisoners. They should be able to see counselors, educators, visitors, etc.
  - 4y ago
einpoklum 4y ago
For me it was the other way around: I went to prison to stop programming. Well, sort of. When I was drafted (involuntarily) into the Israeli Military, I worked as a programmer. It's much cheaper, you see, to have a programmer who doesn't get paid - assuming you can filter our those teens who are good enough to be able to do the job. Now, I was only 18 years old. During my military service, my political consciousness developed, and I started thinking about what the Israeli military was doing with the product of my work, and for what purposes. I also became quite critical of the various foreign clients of the technology we were working on. It got to the point where I not only thought what my unit was doing was illegitimate, but in fact, I lost my support for the regime. So, I quit. The thing is, quitting mandatory military service is a bit more difficult than quitting a civilian job... and in order to quit, I had to go to prison. Or rather, officially, you can't quit, you can only be discharged; and for that to happen you have to resist enough for them to believe they won't get any work out of you, and then they typically discharge you for "inappropriate conduct", or for being determined to have an (inspecific) psychological problem.
- golemiprague 4y ago
RickWolter 4y ago
Hey everyone. My names Rick. Im the person Adam is interviewing. If any of you are interested in learning more about Underdog Devs, please reach out to us on Twitter @RwoltX and @UnderdogDevs or directly to underdogdevs.org We are always looking for people who would like to get involved the most common involvement is mentoring and pair programming we also could use help in other areas...someone to help develop partnerships, admin, and general marketing. as for donations ... Everything we receive goes directly to the mission. We do not take a dime to pay for any salaries. None of us do. We work as volunteers. Every penny we receive goes to learning resources and to the stipend program to pay the bills of our most gritty who are held back due to their financial situation.
- sgt 4y ago
  I enjoyed the podcast and also reading your balanced replies on Hacker News. It seems like you're not easily offended and you've had enough experience to understand why people take other (extreme) views.
  - RickWolter 4y ago
    thanks. I try.
- agumonkey 4y ago
  I found you so optimistic in tone about your path, the randomness, the unfairness.. it was very strange to me, I'm so quickly angry. Good luck for the rest
kazinator 4y ago
Oh yeah, that's gonna bring status to our profession! Can you imagine "Prison to District Attorney". Or "Prison to Chief of Staff of Hospital".
- z3c0 4y ago
  No, because - as a programmer - I have the humility to admit that this job requires neither the stress management, the moral complexity, the social responsibility, nor the interpersonal skills that the jobs you've listed require. I think our profession needs less gatekeeping, not more.
  - kazinator 4y ago
    You only speak for yourself, and not very well. Less gatekeeping? Sure, bring on more women, ... and convicted sex offenders. Diversity is the fabric of the modern workplace!
    - z3c0 4y ago
      You and I differ in what we consider speaking well. I'd sooner hire an ex-con over a reductionist, as I at least know the former can handle nuance.
- PeterStuer 4y ago
  Prison to lawyer happens though.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  > Oh yeah, that's gonna bring status to our profession! Who cares? So what is your plan for former convicts? Have them in prison their entire lives? Only give them the shittiest of jobs for the rest of their lives? Send them to Australia? Outer space? All other things being equal, I'd rather have a former convict motivated to make the best of things than some privileged middle-class millennial who thinks the world owes them everything.
  - 4y ago
anon3355987 4y ago
(Long time member, but anon for this one, sry) I'll bite. True story. This company hired a young guy. Extremely likable dude. (100% female, if that matters) HR loves him, not likes, loves him. Undenyably charming chap. He's hired in a technical position despite having no real education in IT or Computer Science, nor any previous experience. Turns out he was involved in a fairly recent murder case, did pre-arrest and out on bail. Never mentioned any of it on his CV/application. Things only suface when his trial and subsequent post conviction jailtime comes up. So, he hired a few other guys to break in and rob an elderly person, who had under his charms confided in him she had a safe full of shinies. Not just hired, he drove them to the site to commit the robbery. They end up killing the eldery woman during the breakin/robbery. The safe turned out to be a fancifull story the granny told the guy. Murder wasn't solved, but his hired hands start balckmailing him, threathning to rat him out (he was a waiter in a place the elderly woman fequented, where he charmed her). As the blackmail progresses, he sees no way out and walks to the police to cut a deal. Trial happens, he gets convicted with a light sentence because of ''çooperation'', and after not too long here he is back at the company. HR sends out feelers to the employees (it's a small company of around 50 employees), but it is clear they're still 100% charmed and the whole thing is just to see who would quit once they hired him back so they can prepare. Now for the kicker: While he was at the company before the trial, and before the company had any idea of his past, he had pitched a SaaS market platform scheme for 'services to the elderly', involving a full database of sensitive info on elderly persons living alone at home. After his (very) short jail sentence, he is hired back by the company on the same scheme. Now I've always been an open minded person. I think people can change (infrequently mind you, but possible). But there seem to be too many notes here to not call it a symphony. I have worked with charming psychopaths in the past as has anyone who has been in this business for some time, and you do get better at spotting certain things. Your thoughts?
- RickWolter 4y ago
  > I have worked with charming psychopaths in the past as has anyone who has been in this business for some time, and you do get better at spotting certain things. how many charming psychopaths have you worked with ? And what have you spotted? I seriously laughed out loud when I read that. what is the point in your comment? To try and discredit me? what for? to harm underdog devs? you cant expect me to take that analogy serious...you compare someone who actively seeks to cause harm with someone who made a terrible choice as a teenager, hasn't been in trouble in over 20 years, and spends his free time helping people for free? Theres no way you can be serious. you know what I think....I think youre full of shit. I think you made that story up and I think you have some personal issue with me or underdog devs. Probably why youre using a burner. at least you think im charming so theres that
anon1922 4y ago
Not all prison sentences are the same. I am in a trial case for possession of illegal pornography (yes, that..). My name came out in the media on the day of my arrest, and society has already concluded the trial years before it is scheduled to take place. Lost the tech-related job, had to move out, lost all social interactions, etc. I've had severe mental health issues and a very difficult past so I had always been searching for therapy without much success, but that made it even harder. On the plus side, all these years I've put to some use in learning that if nobody can help you with therapy you can still build it back up yourself. Pick from all the toolsets of DBT, CBT, read with a critical mind zen or buddhist writings, use the time to figure out what healing and coping are and how to put it in practice at every moment, and moment-to-moment. And I've only done all of that because when all things fell apart a couple people still stood by me and I figured I couldn't trust myself a whole lot more than I could trust their hearts, so I put in the work. Doesn't exactly matter though, because prison will hit like a truck even though I was socially sentenced years ago, and pretty much every single program I've ever heard of for people "from prison" would use murder as the paramount example, but nobody will touch my kind of conviction with a ten foot pole. All the sexual offenders I've been in group therapy with were either leaning on secrecy (jobs that don't do background checks, their names having remained undisclosed to the public, etc) or they were at the end of their rope. I have a couple people in my life who love me and am thankful for their help, but I very much suspect I'll fall in the latter category when justice officially passes over me.
- erdos4d 4y ago
  I don't know your case, but getting your whole life shitcanned for having illegal porn seems crazy to me. Can you start a business and work behind that? I've never once looked into who founded any company I've hired for anything, ever. I doubt anyone else does either. An idea.
  - anon1922 4y ago
    I'll keep that in mind, thanks. I just happen to have a name that, as far as I've been able to tell for decades, uniquely identifies me in the world (due to unusual spellings). And after many years of a very slow crawl through the justice system without the job, I have long lost any kind of savings (and would be homeless if not for the support of a couple people around me). The top google results for my name - even with a usual expected typo I get, lands on articles online from the day of the arrest. Only reporting on the arrest itself, therefore not declaring the guilt, but it hardly matters to any reader or automated tools that copy those articles over and over again on random blogs. It's a terrifying ride going forward, no matter how much I figure out healing and therapeutic tools.
benkarst 4y ago
Or if you make TC, from 'from programming to prison'.
_8j50 4y ago
Question: Without a CS degree background can you still work as a programmer with just knowing the languages? Do companies require something else like a bootcamp leetcode?
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I have a G.E.D. A bit of redneck tech school. The rest is OJT, seminars, nights and weekends, and side work. Lots of volunteer work. Worked for me. I can also relate to the topic. I work daily with many folks that have had to rebuild their lives; as both victim and victimizer. Tough room. Many of the folks you try to help aren't gonna make it. Some will try to take you down with them (not always the criminals, either. Some of the victims get fairly primal, as well). Learning to balance and hold your boundaries is key. Don't get punked, but also, don't let the punks stop you. Long story. Get your hanky. Things have turned out OK, in the long run. I salute and support Mr. Wolter, and wish him all the luck in the world.
- RickWolter 4y ago
  without a doubt
Joel_Mckay 4y ago
While some may think life is unfair, the fact remains that recidivism rates are high. No one wants to be a cautionary tale for being complicit with a sensitive area of a business. The reason prisons don’t like people freely using computers/phones, is many prisoners feel justified in blackmailing other inmates families and scamming the public. Some may get away with breaking rules even while serving a sentence, but that same lack of impulse control is what keeps people poor. The world does not change, and people must adapt to the reality of their situation.
amelius 4y ago
Reminds me of the author of ReiserFS, where the story went in the opposite direction.
r00tanon 4y ago
I can only go by my experience in that a passion for making computers do things was the seed. From there it drove a desire to learn more. I don't think most people can sustain the desire without that. It really should be about feeding the innate talents. Could I make a living playing music? No. It's not a one size fits all thing.
ROTMetro 4y ago
https://www.unicor.gov/DataConversionVideo.aspx https://www.unicor.gov/DataConversionVideo.aspx Guys, we're good. Just look at the opportunity the government provides prison slaves, I mean inmates. Don't forget in the Feds you are required to work, or you will be shipped to a higher classification facility and receive Diesel Therapy(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_therapy ). Unicor, the Federal Government's slave labor auction site. USA 13the Amendment to the Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
AlbertCory 4y ago
I'm not in any way, shape, or form comparing veterans to felons. If anything, vets are favored rather than disfavored for hiring. This is strictly about "learn to code." I did a podcast where I interviewed vets or their spouses: https://operationcode.org/podcast https://operationcode.org/podcast Many of them were, or are, in 4-year degree programs, but some went to code schools. Some had technical careers in the military, but not all. Very few were actually in combat, but nearly all were deployed. I found that there was very little I could teach them about programming. They already knew everything and most had jobs. One worked at Google, last I heard. So yeah: why not prisoners, assuming they're not psychopaths just trying to amplify their evil-doing abilities?
kazinator 4y ago
I'd ideally like to be able to quit when an employer starts hiring criminals, and get the full compensation package, as if I'd been laid off, and the freedom to tell the truth about it in interviews.

This is the story of how Rick Wolter learned to program in prison and ultimately became a professional iOS developer. I figure any story that involves smuggling a python interpreter into prison on a USB stick seems like it might interest people here. But I think its also an important story because it’s about how software development can be life changing and lift people up out of hard situations.

adamgordonbell 4y ago
Oh, also Rick has some of the most practical advice on learning programming, and transition to a professional dev that I've seen. I know it’s not popular to just talk about grinding, the overwork culture is not popular. I get that, this is a different space. You want this shit? You got to grind. You’re going to have to do it on the weekends, you’re going to have to lock in. I’m sure someone’s going to be like, “Oh, no you don’t. I don’t have to. don’t put that pressure on them,” that’s fine. But to me, when you come from a background, especially if you’re a felon, but even if you’re not a felon, you don’t have a college that’s going to give you any kind of signal. Everyone talks about the college debt but your local community college isn’t that expensive. And then, that way, maybe you could just cut your work down to 10, 20 hours and then spend the rest of time coding. You focus on fundamentals first. Data structures, control flow, that kind of thing and stick to that for a short period of time. Maybe a month, month and a half, just do that basic stuff. It’s not popular, people want to see things on their screen, they want to say they built a thing but you’ve got to get those fundamentals first and there’s so many free options, Coursera, freeCodeCamp. And then, once you get some fundamentals, then you can decide on the platform. And once you pick your platform, just focus and stick to it. If you’re building Ruby on Rails, do that every day but make sure you’re building it. Hands on the keyboard, watch a tutorial then do the tutorial again but change some things then try to recreate what you built in the tutorial while not looking, that kind of thing. Because that’s the main thing is getting your skills up.
- chrisbrandow 4y ago
  I have tried to summarize my advice as a mid career person who switched to programming. iOS. Rick has done so more perfectly than I have ever been able to. I highly endorse his comments here.
- kodah 4y ago
  This is solid advice for anyone coming here without a degree. I say that because it mostly summarizes what I feel made me successful.
daniel-cussen 4y ago
So I was talking to a cop, because I do in fact talk to cops all the time, talked about prison, like convicts pretending to be sick for a bit, I told him that's like their vacation. Then escape came up, Marshal Service came up. I told him, dude rather stay right in my cell than being hunted by the Marshal Service. Dude like Wyatt Earp? The only escape from Wyatt Earp, the only safe harbor, the real place you can go, is stay right where you are, in your cell. So this is a sick hack, that's exactly what this forum is about. Hacker News.

jmclnx 4y ago

I know a few people who were in prison, some for serious crimes. Based upon my very unscientific sample, many of these guys were pretty smart. It makes me wonder how their environment in school (peers and/or teachers) along with social pressure put some of them on that path. I hear if smart people are not engaged in classes, they get bored rather quickly and start doing poorly. When I was young, I remember many times teachers would focus on the kids having a hard time learning, which is understandable. But some of the smarter kids may decide "why bother" when not given attention they may crave.

soulofmischief 4y ago
For me it had nothing to do with attention... if you let me read my books quietly in class while you're wasting my time with a lecture I can absorb in two minutes at home, we don't have a problem. I'll show up and pass your test. Most of my teachers understood this and got out of my way. The ones who didn't understand caused me no end of problems in their attempts to force me to conform to expectations I never signed off on. I was the smartest (read: just the most motivated) kid at most of the schools I went to and also among the most frequently written up, punished or suspended. I had a reputation for getting sent to the office at least once every two weeks, inevitably due to some form of "willful disobedience", which was just me refusing to buckle to any perceived narcissism or institutional coercion foisted upon me. Authority figures either hated that they could not control me, or warmly accepted that if they just left me alone I would pass their stupid tests with flying colors. It wasn't until my last two years of high school, when I was homeless and attending on my own cognizance, that teachers finally backed the fuck off and realized what they were dealing with. Except a single teacher. My transcripts were illegally altered by a teacher who felt that she had to "win" against me, and ultimately caused me 10 years of economic hardship after high school. I passed every class, had the highest test scores. and she still found a way to rob me of the multiple full-ride scholarship opportunities I had received for several engineering colleges, just to put a boot down on my face one last time on my way out. This was substantial enough to sue the school department over, but when you're homeless and your parents are drug addicts, you don't get these opportunities. This is what an under-stimulated individual with no support structure looks like. And I felt the concerted institutional effort every single step of the way to push me down and grind me into submission, to teach me I was a criminal for thinking for myself. I have a much more tolerant view of many forms of criminal behavior because of this experience and that is no accident.

buf 4y ago

I've also been to prison. My story is homeless at 20, no friends or family, in debt about $20k and just got out of prison as a convicted felon. Now I've built 2.5 unicorns, one of which I helped start. Right now, I've started two side projects that are nearing the $1M ARR (combined). Programming is a great leveler in today's world. I cannot express how lucky I am to have found it early in my life. I have a great desire to give back, and somehow fix recidivism in the USA, but it feels so unreachable. I've heard that 70M Jobs was shutting down, and I reached out to the owner, but he brushed me off in an email. At some point, I'd like to give it a real shot.

JohnCurran 4y ago
If you want to give back, consider hiring from the organization Rick (subject of the podcast) started - Underdog Devs. It’s a loosely collected group of mentors and mentees with a small dedicated group of full-time learners on a stipend program The #1 challenge, by far, faced by the org is hiring and placement into companies for cohort graduates and mentees. If you’re able, consider posting job listings in the UD slack https://www.underdogdevs.org/ https://www.underdogdevs.org/ *I am part of the group as a mentor and its been on the whole an incredibly positive experience
- buf 4y ago
  I'm in. Just DMed the UD twitter account to get an invite into the slack group.
  - JohnCurran 4y ago
    That’s awesome - If, for some reason, they don’t get back to you let me know and I will get you into the Slack
    - buf 4y ago
      Okay, will do. Just in case, you can send the invite to ex [at] siliconvict com
- 4y ago

deeg 4y ago

Ex-cons have a tough time getting jobs and this can help lead to recidivism. It seems like programming would be a great way to keep felons from going back to prison. Getting paid to WFH on an open source project would be low risk.

deleted 4y ago
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paulpauper 4y ago
most people have a tough time getting goods jobs. it's not uncommon for many people to apply some a single mid-salary opening.

deleted 4y ago

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lostboomerang 4y ago

Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph "Life’s Not Fair". Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so teaching felons programming is a great way to reduce recidivism". This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be? When media corporations started laying off journalists in droves a few years later, the journalists did not find "Learn to code" suggestions useful or even funny. A more general solution to reduce recidivism should probably consist of two initiatives: 1) Educate felons when they're in prison. It doesn't have to be programming. It can be a craft, something academic, programming (if they feel like it) or some other skill. Whatever. 2) Reform the prison system, so inmates are treated as humans. E.g. with private corporations running prisons in the US, they have a strong motivation to create "recurring guests". Contrast this with e.g. prisons in Scandinavia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IepJqxRCZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IepJqxRCZY) that have the lowest rates of recidivism. We know how to reduce recidivism. It is not an easy "learn to code" exercise. But are the US willing to make the changes necessary to create meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism - or shall we continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the bootstraps! We found one guy who did it, and so can you!" stories?

paulpauper 4y ago
This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be? Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. I think instead those miners were offered vocational training, which included coding. This was in 2017. maybe this is what they were talking about https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering-shows-challenges-of-teaching-coal-miners-to-code/ https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering...
- ejb999 4y ago
  >>Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. Then I guess you really didn't look to hard: https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/476391-biden-tells-coal-miners-to-learn-to-code/ https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/47... snip: "During a rally yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden spoke to a crowd in Derry, N.H., a town that many miners call home. He acknowledged the economic setbacks and job insecurity that coal miners face these days, and gave them some advice: learn to code."

adam_gyroscope 4y ago

I’m a mentor for Underdog Devs and love it! Happy to answer any questions.

accnumnplus1 4y ago

Religious belief. The way to heaven. Does any other profession have such a high opinion of itself?

remote_phone 4y ago

I think the biggest problem prisons have is that you collect large groups of criminals and let them hang out together. It breeds an even more concentrated form of criminal. Often times minor criminals need to join racist gangs just to survive which Is inhumane. I think they should all be separated from each other. They should be put in single cells, and given access to as much education as they want, and just basically put on time out for weeks, months, years. Let them chat with their families and understand the hurt they did. Let them meditate on what they want to do with Their lives after. But keep them separated. It makes things safer for guards as well, lowering the tension. What we are doing now is useless, inhumane, and counterproductive.

lazyasciiart 4y ago
Solitary confinement is literally inhumane and drives people to suicide. This is one of the only realistic suggestions I can imagine that would make the US prison system worse.
- RickWolter 4y ago
  just want to add that you are correct imo. confinement was overall the very worst experience of my 18 years in prison.
  - sgt 4y ago
    I can imagine that is true. I think OP has some rationale, but he/she has done very little second order thinking of the consequences of such isolation. It's very easy to make such harsh armchair statements on the Internet, but I think more reflection is needed.
    - remote_phone 4y ago
      As I explained above I didn’t mean solitary confinement. I meant simply not mixing with other prisoners. They should be able to see counselors, educators, visitors, etc.
- 4y ago

einpoklum 4y ago

For me it was the other way around: I went to prison to stop programming. Well, sort of. When I was drafted (involuntarily) into the Israeli Military, I worked as a programmer. It's much cheaper, you see, to have a programmer who doesn't get paid - assuming you can filter our those teens who are good enough to be able to do the job. Now, I was only 18 years old. During my military service, my political consciousness developed, and I started thinking about what the Israeli military was doing with the product of my work, and for what purposes. I also became quite critical of the various foreign clients of the technology we were working on. It got to the point where I not only thought what my unit was doing was illegitimate, but in fact, I lost my support for the regime. So, I quit. The thing is, quitting mandatory military service is a bit more difficult than quitting a civilian job... and in order to quit, I had to go to prison. Or rather, officially, you can't quit, you can only be discharged; and for that to happen you have to resist enough for them to believe they won't get any work out of you, and then they typically discharge you for "inappropriate conduct", or for being determined to have an (inspecific) psychological problem.

golemiprague 4y ago

RickWolter 4y ago

Hey everyone. My names Rick. Im the person Adam is interviewing. If any of you are interested in learning more about Underdog Devs, please reach out to us on Twitter @RwoltX and @UnderdogDevs or directly to underdogdevs.org We are always looking for people who would like to get involved the most common involvement is mentoring and pair programming we also could use help in other areas...someone to help develop partnerships, admin, and general marketing. as for donations ... Everything we receive goes directly to the mission. We do not take a dime to pay for any salaries. None of us do. We work as volunteers. Every penny we receive goes to learning resources and to the stipend program to pay the bills of our most gritty who are held back due to their financial situation.

sgt 4y ago
I enjoyed the podcast and also reading your balanced replies on Hacker News. It seems like you're not easily offended and you've had enough experience to understand why people take other (extreme) views.
- RickWolter 4y ago
  thanks. I try.
agumonkey 4y ago
I found you so optimistic in tone about your path, the randomness, the unfairness.. it was very strange to me, I'm so quickly angry. Good luck for the rest

kazinator 4y ago

Oh yeah, that's gonna bring status to our profession! Can you imagine "Prison to District Attorney". Or "Prison to Chief of Staff of Hospital".

z3c0 4y ago
No, because - as a programmer - I have the humility to admit that this job requires neither the stress management, the moral complexity, the social responsibility, nor the interpersonal skills that the jobs you've listed require. I think our profession needs less gatekeeping, not more.
- kazinator 4y ago
  You only speak for yourself, and not very well. Less gatekeeping? Sure, bring on more women, ... and convicted sex offenders. Diversity is the fabric of the modern workplace!
  - z3c0 4y ago
    You and I differ in what we consider speaking well. I'd sooner hire an ex-con over a reductionist, as I at least know the former can handle nuance.
PeterStuer 4y ago
Prison to lawyer happens though.
Beltalowda 4y ago
> Oh yeah, that's gonna bring status to our profession! Who cares? So what is your plan for former convicts? Have them in prison their entire lives? Only give them the shittiest of jobs for the rest of their lives? Send them to Australia? Outer space? All other things being equal, I'd rather have a former convict motivated to make the best of things than some privileged middle-class millennial who thinks the world owes them everything.
- 4y ago

anon3355987 4y ago

(Long time member, but anon for this one, sry) I'll bite. True story. This company hired a young guy. Extremely likable dude. (100% female, if that matters) HR loves him, not likes, loves him. Undenyably charming chap. He's hired in a technical position despite having no real education in IT or Computer Science, nor any previous experience. Turns out he was involved in a fairly recent murder case, did pre-arrest and out on bail. Never mentioned any of it on his CV/application. Things only suface when his trial and subsequent post conviction jailtime comes up. So, he hired a few other guys to break in and rob an elderly person, who had under his charms confided in him she had a safe full of shinies. Not just hired, he drove them to the site to commit the robbery. They end up killing the eldery woman during the breakin/robbery. The safe turned out to be a fancifull story the granny told the guy. Murder wasn't solved, but his hired hands start balckmailing him, threathning to rat him out (he was a waiter in a place the elderly woman fequented, where he charmed her). As the blackmail progresses, he sees no way out and walks to the police to cut a deal. Trial happens, he gets convicted with a light sentence because of ''çooperation'', and after not too long here he is back at the company. HR sends out feelers to the employees (it's a small company of around 50 employees), but it is clear they're still 100% charmed and the whole thing is just to see who would quit once they hired him back so they can prepare. Now for the kicker: While he was at the company before the trial, and before the company had any idea of his past, he had pitched a SaaS market platform scheme for 'services to the elderly', involving a full database of sensitive info on elderly persons living alone at home. After his (very) short jail sentence, he is hired back by the company on the same scheme. Now I've always been an open minded person. I think people can change (infrequently mind you, but possible). But there seem to be too many notes here to not call it a symphony. I have worked with charming psychopaths in the past as has anyone who has been in this business for some time, and you do get better at spotting certain things. Your thoughts?

RickWolter 4y ago
> I have worked with charming psychopaths in the past as has anyone who has been in this business for some time, and you do get better at spotting certain things. how many charming psychopaths have you worked with ? And what have you spotted? I seriously laughed out loud when I read that. what is the point in your comment? To try and discredit me? what for? to harm underdog devs? you cant expect me to take that analogy serious...you compare someone who actively seeks to cause harm with someone who made a terrible choice as a teenager, hasn't been in trouble in over 20 years, and spends his free time helping people for free? Theres no way you can be serious. you know what I think....I think youre full of shit. I think you made that story up and I think you have some personal issue with me or underdog devs. Probably why youre using a burner. at least you think im charming so theres that

anon1922 4y ago

Not all prison sentences are the same. I am in a trial case for possession of illegal pornography (yes, that..). My name came out in the media on the day of my arrest, and society has already concluded the trial years before it is scheduled to take place. Lost the tech-related job, had to move out, lost all social interactions, etc. I've had severe mental health issues and a very difficult past so I had always been searching for therapy without much success, but that made it even harder. On the plus side, all these years I've put to some use in learning that if nobody can help you with therapy you can still build it back up yourself. Pick from all the toolsets of DBT, CBT, read with a critical mind zen or buddhist writings, use the time to figure out what healing and coping are and how to put it in practice at every moment, and moment-to-moment. And I've only done all of that because when all things fell apart a couple people still stood by me and I figured I couldn't trust myself a whole lot more than I could trust their hearts, so I put in the work. Doesn't exactly matter though, because prison will hit like a truck even though I was socially sentenced years ago, and pretty much every single program I've ever heard of for people "from prison" would use murder as the paramount example, but nobody will touch my kind of conviction with a ten foot pole. All the sexual offenders I've been in group therapy with were either leaning on secrecy (jobs that don't do background checks, their names having remained undisclosed to the public, etc) or they were at the end of their rope. I have a couple people in my life who love me and am thankful for their help, but I very much suspect I'll fall in the latter category when justice officially passes over me.

erdos4d 4y ago
I don't know your case, but getting your whole life shitcanned for having illegal porn seems crazy to me. Can you start a business and work behind that? I've never once looked into who founded any company I've hired for anything, ever. I doubt anyone else does either. An idea.
- anon1922 4y ago
  I'll keep that in mind, thanks. I just happen to have a name that, as far as I've been able to tell for decades, uniquely identifies me in the world (due to unusual spellings). And after many years of a very slow crawl through the justice system without the job, I have long lost any kind of savings (and would be homeless if not for the support of a couple people around me). The top google results for my name - even with a usual expected typo I get, lands on articles online from the day of the arrest. Only reporting on the arrest itself, therefore not declaring the guilt, but it hardly matters to any reader or automated tools that copy those articles over and over again on random blogs. It's a terrifying ride going forward, no matter how much I figure out healing and therapeutic tools.

benkarst 4y ago

Or if you make TC, from 'from programming to prison'.

_8j50 4y ago

Question: Without a CS degree background can you still work as a programmer with just knowing the languages? Do companies require something else like a bootcamp leetcode?

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I have a G.E.D. A bit of redneck tech school. The rest is OJT, seminars, nights and weekends, and side work. Lots of volunteer work. Worked for me. I can also relate to the topic. I work daily with many folks that have had to rebuild their lives; as both victim and victimizer. Tough room. Many of the folks you try to help aren't gonna make it. Some will try to take you down with them (not always the criminals, either. Some of the victims get fairly primal, as well). Learning to balance and hold your boundaries is key. Don't get punked, but also, don't let the punks stop you. Long story. Get your hanky. Things have turned out OK, in the long run. I salute and support Mr. Wolter, and wish him all the luck in the world.
RickWolter 4y ago
without a doubt

Joel_Mckay 4y ago

While some may think life is unfair, the fact remains that recidivism rates are high. No one wants to be a cautionary tale for being complicit with a sensitive area of a business. The reason prisons don’t like people freely using computers/phones, is many prisoners feel justified in blackmailing other inmates families and scamming the public. Some may get away with breaking rules even while serving a sentence, but that same lack of impulse control is what keeps people poor. The world does not change, and people must adapt to the reality of their situation.

amelius 4y ago

Reminds me of the author of ReiserFS, where the story went in the opposite direction.

r00tanon 4y ago

I can only go by my experience in that a passion for making computers do things was the seed. From there it drove a desire to learn more. I don't think most people can sustain the desire without that. It really should be about feeding the innate talents. Could I make a living playing music? No. It's not a one size fits all thing.

ROTMetro 4y ago

https://www.unicor.gov/DataConversionVideo.aspx https://www.unicor.gov/DataConversionVideo.aspx Guys, we're good. Just look at the opportunity the government provides prison slaves, I mean inmates. Don't forget in the Feds you are required to work, or you will be shipped to a higher classification facility and receive Diesel Therapy(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_therapy ). Unicor, the Federal Government's slave labor auction site. USA 13the Amendment to the Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

AlbertCory 4y ago

I'm not in any way, shape, or form comparing veterans to felons. If anything, vets are favored rather than disfavored for hiring. This is strictly about "learn to code." I did a podcast where I interviewed vets or their spouses: https://operationcode.org/podcast https://operationcode.org/podcast Many of them were, or are, in 4-year degree programs, but some went to code schools. Some had technical careers in the military, but not all. Very few were actually in combat, but nearly all were deployed. I found that there was very little I could teach them about programming. They already knew everything and most had jobs. One worked at Google, last I heard. So yeah: why not prisoners, assuming they're not psychopaths just trying to amplify their evil-doing abilities?

kazinator 4y ago

I'd ideally like to be able to quit when an employer starts hiring criminals, and get the full compensation package, as if I'd been laid off, and the freedom to tell the truth about it in interviews.