11 ms·

Jetbrains Space

269 points by solalf 4y ago

lozenge 4y ago
It looks beautiful in the video demo, I just wonder whether integrations will let it down. GitHub integrates with any code coverage, code quality, security scanning, or CI solution out there. Slack similarly integrates with any on-call system, time tracking system, code host... Sure Jetbrains Space has provided the API, webhooks and SDK, but most teams want to focus on their application itself? It feels a lot "safer" to go with a service that isn't trying to offer everything and then pick and choose. Slack+GitHub+CI of the month+code quality plugin of the month+anything...
- ehnto 4y ago
  I think the hodgepodge, piecemeal nature of software development tooling is both a strength and a downfall. Something like JetBrains Space appeals to me at this point in my career, because I really just want to write the software and have everything else handled by default. I don't want to be gluing together services just to get work done. It's also appealing to me as a way to align everyone on the same tools. One of the most effective places I ever worked, had unified tooling across the developers, and was also working exclusively in one software framework. That made them an absolute powerhouse, and able to share knowledge and streamline work in a way you can't do in other environments.
  - xeromal 4y ago
    Yeah, API/Service gluing in general gets old. I hate keeping things that have different dev cycles in sync.
  - e3bc54b2 4y ago
    Heh. You know who made their fortune providing "everything else handled by default"? Microsoft. Now that enters a fairly divisive terrain, but needless to say, what you expect from single source of tooling generally does not end up being delivered.
    - ehnto 4y ago
      I hear you, and I'm certainly not after Conglomerate Enterprise Tooling. But I think there's room for somewhere between that and makeshift tooling pipelines. Not everyone has to use it, but I'd like to have the option of an integrated software development platform.
      - zoomzoom 4y ago
        Withcoherence.com is one new option (I’m a cofounder). Would love your thoughts if you get a chance to check it out - hn@withcoherence.com…
nightowl_games 4y ago
It seems like a daunting task for Space to actually deliver on all it's promises, but Jetbrains has an extremely high amount of credibility with developers. I want to believe in this product, as I want competition against VSCode and Slack.
- chrsig 4y ago
  I can believe that it'll be rough at first, but jetbrains is really good at iteratively improving their products. that said, I'm not incredibly interested in it. Maybe if I were at a company that just got a series A or something, and was starting to hire quickly, and didn't already have an entrenched environment. I'll probably make use of their remote environments at some point -- it solves a lot of cross-platform development problems. Still has some rough edges though, based on my 10 minute attempt to use it. I'm at the point where the only thing I want from them is to be able to use a single ide for multiple languages in the same project. I've brought it up before on HN, and it seems like for at least some of their products you can still use as plugins to intellij. But clion really throws a wrench into that.
  - bcjordan 4y ago
    +1 having to juggle multiple IDEs for a multi language project is clunky.
    - mdaniel 4y ago
      Yeah, bonus points for them seeming to use the same `.idea` directory but in incompatible ways :sob:
      - chrsig 4y ago
        this a big part of that-- the different ides can't even share the same root directory. it'd be 50% solved if they just used `.idename` I'd like to share run configurations between them, which would remain unsolved by that.
brap 4y ago
Seems cool, but the demo video is so corporation-y it's comical. When they said "experience synergy and convergence throughout the system" I almost thought it was satire.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jen20 4y ago
  They know their audience: middle managers who need to sound like they add value.
tasubotadas 4y ago
Has anybody actually tried it? Anyone willing to share their experiences? The tools looks extremely promising for smaller teams that just want to get the whole thing going with minimal config
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sod 4y ago
All in one solutions always look super nice when they first come out, as they can shortcut to just implement all the best practices that most people do right now and look very clean by omitting all the weird edge cases. But give it a couple of years, and you are stuck with a slow moving monolith. That jetbrains fleet - a year after the announcement - is still in closed beta shows that they aren't really setup to move quickly. But from a business perspective this seems like a good move. There is no competition for such a complete package? Email seems to be missing though. And even if your software is closed source, what if you want to open source parts of it for exposure and talent acquisition?
- symlinkk 4y ago
  > There is no competition for such a complete package GitHub + VSCode
- KronisLV 4y ago
  > All in one solutions always look super nice when they first come out, as they can shortcut to just implement all the best practices that most people do right now and look very clean by omitting all the weird edge cases. But give it a couple of years, and you are stuck with a slow moving monolith. I'd say that a lot of the pain comes from needing to integrate with the dozens of different pieces of software that people use for their bespoke work setups. For example, you might use self-hosted GitLab for code and code reviews, but something like Jenkins for CI/CD - so all of the sudden you need to think about the webhooks and reporting build status back for the web UI. Of course, I've seen people just not do that any only Jenkins being able to show you what's going on with your builds (though at least with e-mails). Furthermore, you might use something like Redmine or Jira for issue tracking which once again have plugins that you need for GitLab to be able to add links in the UI for actual changes done to the code for some business need. Of course, you could go with not the official plugin but something like Jigit which has its own set of oddities and configuration needs. But if you can stick within the same ecosystem, such as GitLab and GitLab CI (which I implemented in the company and now the majority of new projects use it, because it seems like the sane choice) and maybe even GitLab with GitLab Issues, or even their new features for managing feature flags (which you might just not have otherwise, or will have XML configuration files) and environments, you'll generally have a pretty positive experience! Personally, I always welcome new players in this market because competition is good, especially when the offerings can be self hosted (which is sadly not a lot of them).
noisy_boy 4y ago
What I really want is a workflow for managing change requests (CRs) that is tightly integrated with Github and Jira. ServiceNow is super clunky (you can't even have markdown in the fields to provide some decent formatting) and the copy-pasting of links gets tiring very fast.
- sjroot 4y ago
  https://support.atlassian.com/jira-cloud-administration/docs/integrate-with-github/ https://support.atlassian.com/jira-cloud-administration/docs... Why would you want to loop in a completely separate service when GitHub and Jira already have an integration available?
  - noisy_boy 4y ago
    I am already using Github and Jira integrated - problem is that a. Jira doesn't provide a change request workflow b. They don't integrate with ServiceNow (which is a major IT service management workflow used for, among many things, change management).
dzikimarian 4y ago
We were waiting for the on prem version to give it a run. Sadly pricing structure is completely different than other Jetbrains products and tbh - crazy expensive. I hope it isn't beginning of transition to overpriced SaaSes everyone else offers.
- scambier 4y ago
  Its between $8/month and $99/month, and the highest tier includes all Jetbrains products. That looks... reasonable?
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    It’s $25 or $125 (includes all product pack, requires min 50 users) per usermonth. The OP said on prem.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      Seems like a completely trivial sum of money for a key professional tool?
      - Semaphor 4y ago
        I’m not disagreeing, just wanted to correct what prices are talked about ;)
  - dzikimarian 4y ago
    On prem is starting at $25/mo/user. This tool includes chat, wiki etc, so you want to bring business people too. Suddenly it's couple grands per month + hosting fees, and you're still hostage, as despite using own servers it will stop working as soon as you miss scheduled payment. Since Spaces integrate half of functionality your company needs - of course you will pay. Compare that to other Jetbrains products, where you pay similar amount once and you can use it forever and you'll see how huge step back it is. I'm happy for everyone in this thread, that it's trivial for your organization to budget $100k+ (realistically, for mid-size org it's something like this to fully integrate and then pedal back from solution of this size if suddenly you are out of the money - eg. Atlassian estimates 9 month+ migration for its jira instances), however for me it's still kinda big bet :-)
severino 4y ago
Things like the Git hosting provided by this Space thing sounded pretty good for EU-based users, as Jetbrains is a company registered in the Czech Republic. Unfortunately, their FAQ on privacy states that all of the data will be stored in Amazon AWS, so from the privacy perspective this is no improvement over Github or Gitlab.
- jen20 4y ago
  If you think that Amazon are reading customer data, you are utterly crazy. Privacy is multi dimensional. If the US government wants access to your stuff, all the EU hosting in the world is not going to stop them.
  - severino 4y ago
    I don't think I said Amazon is, or isn't, reading customer data. Nobody knows. As an EU citizen, I just prefer my data to be handed by an European company inside an European country, as I wouldn't want my data to be in China, handed by Baidu, if I was an American citizen.
    - skinnymuch 4y ago
      Why would the China thing matter? Having the NSA etc have data on me is no good. I am American. I have nothing to do with China. The country will never matter personally to me or my life.
  - morelisp 4y ago
    > Privacy is multi dimensional. > If the US government wants access to your stuff, all the EU hosting in the world is not going to stop them. These statements are at odds. The first is true, invalidating the second. If the NSA wants to read my email because they think I'm involved in a terrorist bombing plot, sure, I'm burned on any provider. If the FBI wants to read my email for pretty much any reason, they'll have to send a warrant which can be addressed in my local court rather than just go through FISA or the CLOUD Act. If some podunk Texas DA wants to see if I've visited an abortion doctor in France, if the service provider's in the US there's a decent chance for a warrant. If it's in the EU, go pound sand you fuckers.
kevmo314 4y ago
I tried it out a bit, the integrations feel really lacking. For example, the teams section is cool, but it can't sync with GSuite or Rippling (or anyone, for that matter), so I have to maintain essentially two sources of truth. Same with calendar, Space won't sync with anyone else, but it doesn't have the ability to invite external users or add video conferencing details. Pretty much the only functional integration seems to be with Github. This feels like a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of situation. I love the premise, but integrations are going to make or break this for me. Admittedly, that's the hardest part to build.
graypegg 4y ago
I have actually used Spaces on a small side project with some friends up until a few months ago! It does seem to have improved since then, but when I was using it the project management/jira-ish features were pretty weak. Basically just tickets with IDs, that you could assign a status. It worked well for our little project but I wouldn’t be able to use it on a larger project. (Things like ticket relations and sub tasks that aren’t just check lists become pretty important imo to not losing things, vs just having everything be a free floating ticket) The git host and PR management system is well built, and was by far the highlight of using it. It works really well, and I much preferred their model of PRs being just a message thread under the hood, so notifications show up in one spot and remain open and findable, in comparison to GitHub where I tend to lose PRs that I have already reviewed/interacted with once. We never used the documents/confluence portion of the app, but it seemed capable at first glance, though if I was asked to pick a space to keep structured docs, I’d probably still use something like notion.
Koshkin 4y ago
Indeed, the process of how software is developed by a large team is different from how it is done by a small team, which in turn is also different from the workflow followed by an individual developer. The larger the team, the more indispensable the tools integration becomes (speaking as a user of Microsoft Teams/Azure DevOps).
ilovecaching 4y ago
I find this shift to paid, online code editors and IDEs very dystopian. The last thing I want to do is rely on a proprietary non-free tool that I need internet to access, can not only gather telemetry about my usage, but also all my code… At some point people have to decide that privacy and freedom are more important than some level of convenience. For me that line is already crossed.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > At some point people have to decide that privacy and freedom are more important than some level of convenience. Why do I need to decide that? I’m just trying write some fun code. It’s all open source and meant to be looked at anyway.
  - ilovecaching 4y ago
    And that’s exactly how dystopias are created. People give away their privacy feeling like they have nothing to hide, up until the point that they really need it back when it becomes a tool of oppression and espionage, but by then it’s already too late. Corporations love to downplay these risks and make it seem like avoiding their road map to vendor lock in and proprietary, subscription based software is for people wearing tin foil hats. There are certain areas where using proprietary software is too difficult and improvements are needed. I don’t advocate for a Stallman like approach. All I am saying is there are enough great open source tools out there that you don’t need to pay for a proprietary editor at the very least. There’s also a bit of hypocrisy at play when you care about making your own projects free and open source, but you don’t want to support the developers building free and open source tools by using their projects.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > it’s already too late Too late for… what? What do you think is going to happen? JetBrains are going to lobby for a law preventing local development? > hypocrisy at play Wow there’s no hypocrisy. I’ve got no moral obligation to support your open source project just because mine is open source. Hypocrisy is telling people to do something and doing another yourself. Given I haven’t told anyone to do anything, where is the hypocrisy? You’re the only person telling anyone to do anything.
sebazzz 4y ago
It is very unfortunate that they killed Upsource and the recommend Space as an alternative. It is like recommending a Swiss pocket knife as a replacement for a screwdriver. A screwdriver that is much easier and comfortable to handle. Being a long-time customer of Jetbrains they didn't even want to offer a license so we could temporarily extend our Upsource license while searching for an alternative. Even not though we offered to pay for it.
mbaris 4y ago
Looks really cool but I think they are being overly ambitious with how much they are trying to do.
mgaw 4y ago
It seems they are deprecating their standalone code review tool Upsource in favor of the code review tool that's integrated into Space. Upsource is nice because it allows opening a review for a set of commits which aren't necessarily continuous. This way, multiple people can work on the same branch at the same time, and open a review for their respective commits afterwards. You don't need to wait for your coworker to have their review approved and their branch merged before you can start building on their work. As far as I know, the other popular review tools (e.g. Github pull requests) only support reviews for entire branches. Does anybody know another review tool which allows commit-based reviews as Upsource and Space do?
- prattmic 4y ago
  I’m not familiar with Upsource, but what you describe sounds somewhat like the Gerrit review process. Each commit is reviewed individually, but sending multiple dependent commits for review is supported as well. It is technically possible for a coworker to build on top of your unsubmitted changes (by checking out your commits and adding more on top). However this process gets somewhat painful if the coworker updates their commits, which would require you to do a convoluted rebase.
  - mdaniel 4y ago
    I played with Upsource back when it was their "static-analysis in the cloud," and it actually was cool, but holy hell it was a beast to get up and running, and (just like Qodana that they're trying now) the static analysis was(is?) indescribably hard to configure correctly to get meaningful results I've heard great things about Gerrit, but it also seems like one of those "strongly opinionated, mailing-list based" review systems, and trying to lobby for such a thing in the GitHub/GitLab web based world is practically a non-starter in my experience
    - prattmic 4y ago
      Gerrit is pretty strongly opinionated, but it is not mailing-list based. Review notifications are sent via email, but otherwise everything needs to be done via the web UI (or other tool using the API).
yewenjie 4y ago
I don't use any Jetbrains product and I have no idea how well-executed this is, but I am pleased to see a relatively smaller company competing against the almost monopoly of Microsoft's VS Code and GitHub.
- mdaniel 4y ago
  Err, you're aware that GitLab is MIT and Space is not even pretending to be open, right? IntelliJ and PyCharm Community are both Apache 2 licensed and are absolutely stellar <https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community> (I mean that they're not crippleware, they're outstanding products that just happen to omit Spring, SQL, and Django support from the Apache 2 versions)
  - number6 4y ago
    I recently bought the Professional Edition of Pycharm after using it for years. The pro features are nice but nothing I missed. Definitely not Crippleware
    - mdaniel 4y ago
      I also forgot to include "remote executors" in that list for shops that use docker or similar machine learning setups; I can imagine that's a non-trivial market for PyCharm Pro
      - denimnerd42 4y ago
        vs code could always go this way in the future too. some of their most popular features are closed sourced freeware. they probably would never directly charge but it definitely violates the open source spirit when the guts of your IDE are closed off
        number6 4y ago
        The out of the box experience of Pycharm is just amazing. Agreed you can do all this with VScodium or even Vim but it's all so much setup...
wiradikusuma 4y ago
We use Space due to GitLab's recent pricing changes. We like: - free git hosting - free slack-like with sub-thread - generous CI/CD - built-in issue tracker - built-in wiki - very snappy - has mobile app We don't like: - CI/CD script uses Kotlin DSL, feels "heavy". - Issue tracker very basic, we end up using YouTrack. Still don't know how to integrate it lol. - One project can have multiple repos, but they all share same permission. So we end up creating multiple projects e.g. mobile app, web, backend. - Regarding multiple projects.. we end up creating another project just to contain wiki. - Cannot trigger based on tag. We end up creating branch for different environment. - Difficulty in writing CI/CD script due to limited documentation/knowledge on the net and unfriendly keyword ("space"? Lol. You have to type "Jetbrains space automation (keyword here)" - At certain times VERY slow. - Notifications in Mobile App sometimes not working. We find confusing: - Calendar - Video call Confusing because why add more features that's already best served by other services?
- badloginagain 4y ago
  Feels like there's a big race to be the all-in-one everything tool for everything. It's Gitlabs whole schtick, GitHub is moving in that direction, now "also Jetbrains". IMO I think something like Jetbrains should be leaning into integration, not all-in-one. Connective tissue last longer than walled garden.
  - delusional 4y ago
    There's no money in integration. It's very easy to get approval for some big shiny tool with a frontend and 19 different features. It's very difficult to get corporate approval for a tiny integration thing that makes 5 of those features work with some others in a different tool. "Can't you just type it in manually?"
    - dijit 4y ago
      Is that true? A large part of the value add of Asana is that it integrates with everything. They’re probably the most expensive issue tracking tool (many times the amount we’d pay for Jira), but it’s extremely worthwhile for us so we pay it.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
I suspect a lot of the success of this will hinge on how friendly it is to tools outside the Jetbrains ecosystem. In particular VSCode. On my team in our little startup doing Rust it's sort of 50/50 CLion vs VSCode. And in many ways we're getting okayish value out of just GitHub + Notion + Google Docs. I'm a big Jetbrains fanboy and an IntelliJ user since the 3.x days. I hope it works out for them.
- smrtinsert 4y ago
  This is my exp too. Shops are usually majority Jetbrains but then there's those people who just refuse to switch and they like Sublime and vscode.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Xcode, Eclipse, Notepad++, VS and VScode over here.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  With Microsoft increasing adoption of Rust, I imagine eventually they will ramp up their investment into Rust IDE tooling.
lopatin 4y ago
Someone's already working on an Eclipse plugin.
sghiassy 4y ago
It’s like a boatcar. A boat and a car, rolled into one. What could go wrong
dixie_land 4y ago
Jetbrains pivots towards integrated solutions unfortunately reminds me of the demise of Delphi when Borland moved to "ALM". Hopefully IntelliJ fares better
- mdaniel 4y ago
  I cannot tell you the amount of "shut up and take my money" if they'd wire IJ analysis into Space, because while they've been trying to ship Qodana for a while, holy hell it's executed poorly. With Space, how can they _not_ have the expertise to have a checkbox that says "run our inspections upon this code" without having to have a PhD in both CI and IJ
- pjmlp 4y ago
  They started to remind me of Borland when they came up with Kotlin and with Google's help, started to see the JVM only as a means to bootsptrap their own Kotlin ecosystem.
jpalomaki 4y ago
Interesting that they are also offering on-prem option for Space [1], currently in beta. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/space/download/ https://www.jetbrains.com/space/download/
wseqyrku 4y ago
Overall looks like GitLab and YouTrack. Both have awful UI. GH which I'm most comfortable with looks like neither.
lumost 4y ago
Curious what folks use for "all-in-one" development? I'm increasingly finding that I don't have the time/inclination to learn yet another tool for getting basic work done. I've loved working with AWS copilot, and I want to use something like space - but curious what folks have found.
lastdong 4y ago
Jetbrains is so good, it scares me they’ll become the next microsoft.
- mdaniel 4y ago
  In my experience, no one is forced to use JetBrains, but there are innumerable work setups that mandate Windows and thus a lot of the Microsoft tooling that implies It's also hard to distinguish from outside of that ecosystem how much Microsoft is pretending to play developer advocate in pursuit of the infamous E.E.E. strategy versus PR damage control versus they really do want to ship good dev tooling. I bring that up because if one is afraid of JetBrains morphing into Microsoft, that question brings up "what is Microsoft's motivation" in order to compare how much JetBrains would, or aims to, have those same motivations. I'm thrilled out of my mind to pay JetBrains the $whatever/year they ask of me because I unquestionably get that much value out of them. And that's not even counting the amount of benefit I get from being able to fix bugs in IJ Community and PyCharm Community due to them being Open. That leads me to believe JetBrains Browser, JetBrains Office, and JetBrains OS are likely quite a ways off because they have plenty of healthy marketshare as it is
lobota 4y ago
The chats, calendars and CI/CD into one is top for our team. Really can help us stop using multiple tabs and tools
RitKun1122 4y ago
I've canceled my Jetbrains subscription this year after about 10 years. While Goland is gold, Webstorm was a constant source of issues and annoyances. VS Code is light years ahead in the JS world supporting Vue (Volar), Svelte, Tailwind - to name a few. In Webstorm, essential bugs / missing feature are open for years. Fixing Tailwind support took ages - no idea if it's working properly now. After switching to VS Code I found that almost everything you get with Jetbrains IDEs is available (often better) as a VS Code extension. The only area where Jetbrain has an edge is their integration with DataGrip, which is brilliant. But then, turned out DataGrip doesn't support the recent SQLite version. The answer from the Jetbrains support was a link to an open source repo that was not maintained anymore (or for a period of time - who knows). That's what I go after paying for 10 years for their ultimate package. Now I'm a more than happy VS Code user. The only thing I really miss is DataGrip. Instead of fixing their core products, they're creating new ones like Space. That is of course legitimate. They have all the right in the world trying to make more money. But it won't be my money.

269 points by solalf 4y ago

It looks beautiful in the video demo, I just wonder whether integrations will let it down. GitHub integrates with any code coverage, code quality, security scanning, or CI solution out there. Slack similarly integrates with any on-call system, time tracking system, code host... Sure Jetbrains Space has provided the API, webhooks and SDK, but most teams want to focus on their application itself? It feels a lot "safer" to go with a service that isn't trying to offer everything and then pick and choose. Slack+GitHub+CI of the month+code quality plugin of the month+anything...

ehnto 4y ago
I think the hodgepodge, piecemeal nature of software development tooling is both a strength and a downfall. Something like JetBrains Space appeals to me at this point in my career, because I really just want to write the software and have everything else handled by default. I don't want to be gluing together services just to get work done. It's also appealing to me as a way to align everyone on the same tools. One of the most effective places I ever worked, had unified tooling across the developers, and was also working exclusively in one software framework. That made them an absolute powerhouse, and able to share knowledge and streamline work in a way you can't do in other environments.
- xeromal 4y ago
  Yeah, API/Service gluing in general gets old. I hate keeping things that have different dev cycles in sync.
- e3bc54b2 4y ago
  Heh. You know who made their fortune providing "everything else handled by default"? Microsoft. Now that enters a fairly divisive terrain, but needless to say, what you expect from single source of tooling generally does not end up being delivered.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    I hear you, and I'm certainly not after Conglomerate Enterprise Tooling. But I think there's room for somewhere between that and makeshift tooling pipelines. Not everyone has to use it, but I'd like to have the option of an integrated software development platform.
    - zoomzoom 4y ago
      Withcoherence.com is one new option (I’m a cofounder). Would love your thoughts if you get a chance to check it out - hn@withcoherence.com…

nightowl_games 4y ago

It seems like a daunting task for Space to actually deliver on all it's promises, but Jetbrains has an extremely high amount of credibility with developers. I want to believe in this product, as I want competition against VSCode and Slack.

chrsig 4y ago
I can believe that it'll be rough at first, but jetbrains is really good at iteratively improving their products. that said, I'm not incredibly interested in it. Maybe if I were at a company that just got a series A or something, and was starting to hire quickly, and didn't already have an entrenched environment. I'll probably make use of their remote environments at some point -- it solves a lot of cross-platform development problems. Still has some rough edges though, based on my 10 minute attempt to use it. I'm at the point where the only thing I want from them is to be able to use a single ide for multiple languages in the same project. I've brought it up before on HN, and it seems like for at least some of their products you can still use as plugins to intellij. But clion really throws a wrench into that.
- bcjordan 4y ago
  +1 having to juggle multiple IDEs for a multi language project is clunky.
  - mdaniel 4y ago
    Yeah, bonus points for them seeming to use the same `.idea` directory but in incompatible ways :sob:
    - chrsig 4y ago
      this a big part of that-- the different ides can't even share the same root directory. it'd be 50% solved if they just used `.idename` I'd like to share run configurations between them, which would remain unsolved by that.

brap 4y ago

Seems cool, but the demo video is so corporation-y it's comical. When they said "experience synergy and convergence throughout the system" I almost thought it was satire.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jen20 4y ago
They know their audience: middle managers who need to sound like they add value.

tasubotadas 4y ago

Has anybody actually tried it? Anyone willing to share their experiences? The tools looks extremely promising for smaller teams that just want to get the whole thing going with minimal config

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

sod 4y ago

All in one solutions always look super nice when they first come out, as they can shortcut to just implement all the best practices that most people do right now and look very clean by omitting all the weird edge cases. But give it a couple of years, and you are stuck with a slow moving monolith. That jetbrains fleet - a year after the announcement - is still in closed beta shows that they aren't really setup to move quickly. But from a business perspective this seems like a good move. There is no competition for such a complete package? Email seems to be missing though. And even if your software is closed source, what if you want to open source parts of it for exposure and talent acquisition?

symlinkk 4y ago
> There is no competition for such a complete package GitHub + VSCode
KronisLV 4y ago
> All in one solutions always look super nice when they first come out, as they can shortcut to just implement all the best practices that most people do right now and look very clean by omitting all the weird edge cases. But give it a couple of years, and you are stuck with a slow moving monolith. I'd say that a lot of the pain comes from needing to integrate with the dozens of different pieces of software that people use for their bespoke work setups. For example, you might use self-hosted GitLab for code and code reviews, but something like Jenkins for CI/CD - so all of the sudden you need to think about the webhooks and reporting build status back for the web UI. Of course, I've seen people just not do that any only Jenkins being able to show you what's going on with your builds (though at least with e-mails). Furthermore, you might use something like Redmine or Jira for issue tracking which once again have plugins that you need for GitLab to be able to add links in the UI for actual changes done to the code for some business need. Of course, you could go with not the official plugin but something like Jigit which has its own set of oddities and configuration needs. But if you can stick within the same ecosystem, such as GitLab and GitLab CI (which I implemented in the company and now the majority of new projects use it, because it seems like the sane choice) and maybe even GitLab with GitLab Issues, or even their new features for managing feature flags (which you might just not have otherwise, or will have XML configuration files) and environments, you'll generally have a pretty positive experience! Personally, I always welcome new players in this market because competition is good, especially when the offerings can be self hosted (which is sadly not a lot of them).

noisy_boy 4y ago

What I really want is a workflow for managing change requests (CRs) that is tightly integrated with Github and Jira. ServiceNow is super clunky (you can't even have markdown in the fields to provide some decent formatting) and the copy-pasting of links gets tiring very fast.

sjroot 4y ago
https://support.atlassian.com/jira-cloud-administration/docs/integrate-with-github/ https://support.atlassian.com/jira-cloud-administration/docs... Why would you want to loop in a completely separate service when GitHub and Jira already have an integration available?
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  I am already using Github and Jira integrated - problem is that a. Jira doesn't provide a change request workflow b. They don't integrate with ServiceNow (which is a major IT service management workflow used for, among many things, change management).

dzikimarian 4y ago

We were waiting for the on prem version to give it a run. Sadly pricing structure is completely different than other Jetbrains products and tbh - crazy expensive. I hope it isn't beginning of transition to overpriced SaaSes everyone else offers.

scambier 4y ago
Its between $8/month and $99/month, and the highest tier includes all Jetbrains products. That looks... reasonable?
- Semaphor 4y ago
  It’s $25 or $125 (includes all product pack, requires min 50 users) per usermonth. The OP said on prem.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Seems like a completely trivial sum of money for a key professional tool?
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      I’m not disagreeing, just wanted to correct what prices are talked about ;)
- dzikimarian 4y ago
  On prem is starting at $25/mo/user. This tool includes chat, wiki etc, so you want to bring business people too. Suddenly it's couple grands per month + hosting fees, and you're still hostage, as despite using own servers it will stop working as soon as you miss scheduled payment. Since Spaces integrate half of functionality your company needs - of course you will pay. Compare that to other Jetbrains products, where you pay similar amount once and you can use it forever and you'll see how huge step back it is. I'm happy for everyone in this thread, that it's trivial for your organization to budget $100k+ (realistically, for mid-size org it's something like this to fully integrate and then pedal back from solution of this size if suddenly you are out of the money - eg. Atlassian estimates 9 month+ migration for its jira instances), however for me it's still kinda big bet :-)

severino 4y ago

Things like the Git hosting provided by this Space thing sounded pretty good for EU-based users, as Jetbrains is a company registered in the Czech Republic. Unfortunately, their FAQ on privacy states that all of the data will be stored in Amazon AWS, so from the privacy perspective this is no improvement over Github or Gitlab.

jen20 4y ago
If you think that Amazon are reading customer data, you are utterly crazy. Privacy is multi dimensional. If the US government wants access to your stuff, all the EU hosting in the world is not going to stop them.
- severino 4y ago
  I don't think I said Amazon is, or isn't, reading customer data. Nobody knows. As an EU citizen, I just prefer my data to be handed by an European company inside an European country, as I wouldn't want my data to be in China, handed by Baidu, if I was an American citizen.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Why would the China thing matter? Having the NSA etc have data on me is no good. I am American. I have nothing to do with China. The country will never matter personally to me or my life.
- morelisp 4y ago
  > Privacy is multi dimensional. > If the US government wants access to your stuff, all the EU hosting in the world is not going to stop them. These statements are at odds. The first is true, invalidating the second. If the NSA wants to read my email because they think I'm involved in a terrorist bombing plot, sure, I'm burned on any provider. If the FBI wants to read my email for pretty much any reason, they'll have to send a warrant which can be addressed in my local court rather than just go through FISA or the CLOUD Act. If some podunk Texas DA wants to see if I've visited an abortion doctor in France, if the service provider's in the US there's a decent chance for a warrant. If it's in the EU, go pound sand you fuckers.

kevmo314 4y ago

I tried it out a bit, the integrations feel really lacking. For example, the teams section is cool, but it can't sync with GSuite or Rippling (or anyone, for that matter), so I have to maintain essentially two sources of truth. Same with calendar, Space won't sync with anyone else, but it doesn't have the ability to invite external users or add video conferencing details. Pretty much the only functional integration seems to be with Github. This feels like a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of situation. I love the premise, but integrations are going to make or break this for me. Admittedly, that's the hardest part to build.

graypegg 4y ago

I have actually used Spaces on a small side project with some friends up until a few months ago! It does seem to have improved since then, but when I was using it the project management/jira-ish features were pretty weak. Basically just tickets with IDs, that you could assign a status. It worked well for our little project but I wouldn’t be able to use it on a larger project. (Things like ticket relations and sub tasks that aren’t just check lists become pretty important imo to not losing things, vs just having everything be a free floating ticket) The git host and PR management system is well built, and was by far the highlight of using it. It works really well, and I much preferred their model of PRs being just a message thread under the hood, so notifications show up in one spot and remain open and findable, in comparison to GitHub where I tend to lose PRs that I have already reviewed/interacted with once. We never used the documents/confluence portion of the app, but it seemed capable at first glance, though if I was asked to pick a space to keep structured docs, I’d probably still use something like notion.

Koshkin 4y ago

Indeed, the process of how software is developed by a large team is different from how it is done by a small team, which in turn is also different from the workflow followed by an individual developer. The larger the team, the more indispensable the tools integration becomes (speaking as a user of Microsoft Teams/Azure DevOps).

ilovecaching 4y ago

I find this shift to paid, online code editors and IDEs very dystopian. The last thing I want to do is rely on a proprietary non-free tool that I need internet to access, can not only gather telemetry about my usage, but also all my code… At some point people have to decide that privacy and freedom are more important than some level of convenience. For me that line is already crossed.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> At some point people have to decide that privacy and freedom are more important than some level of convenience. Why do I need to decide that? I’m just trying write some fun code. It’s all open source and meant to be looked at anyway.
- ilovecaching 4y ago
  And that’s exactly how dystopias are created. People give away their privacy feeling like they have nothing to hide, up until the point that they really need it back when it becomes a tool of oppression and espionage, but by then it’s already too late. Corporations love to downplay these risks and make it seem like avoiding their road map to vendor lock in and proprietary, subscription based software is for people wearing tin foil hats. There are certain areas where using proprietary software is too difficult and improvements are needed. I don’t advocate for a Stallman like approach. All I am saying is there are enough great open source tools out there that you don’t need to pay for a proprietary editor at the very least. There’s also a bit of hypocrisy at play when you care about making your own projects free and open source, but you don’t want to support the developers building free and open source tools by using their projects.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > it’s already too late Too late for… what? What do you think is going to happen? JetBrains are going to lobby for a law preventing local development? > hypocrisy at play Wow there’s no hypocrisy. I’ve got no moral obligation to support your open source project just because mine is open source. Hypocrisy is telling people to do something and doing another yourself. Given I haven’t told anyone to do anything, where is the hypocrisy? You’re the only person telling anyone to do anything.

sebazzz 4y ago

It is very unfortunate that they killed Upsource and the recommend Space as an alternative. It is like recommending a Swiss pocket knife as a replacement for a screwdriver. A screwdriver that is much easier and comfortable to handle. Being a long-time customer of Jetbrains they didn't even want to offer a license so we could temporarily extend our Upsource license while searching for an alternative. Even not though we offered to pay for it.

mbaris 4y ago

Looks really cool but I think they are being overly ambitious with how much they are trying to do.

mgaw 4y ago

It seems they are deprecating their standalone code review tool Upsource in favor of the code review tool that's integrated into Space. Upsource is nice because it allows opening a review for a set of commits which aren't necessarily continuous. This way, multiple people can work on the same branch at the same time, and open a review for their respective commits afterwards. You don't need to wait for your coworker to have their review approved and their branch merged before you can start building on their work. As far as I know, the other popular review tools (e.g. Github pull requests) only support reviews for entire branches. Does anybody know another review tool which allows commit-based reviews as Upsource and Space do?

prattmic 4y ago
I’m not familiar with Upsource, but what you describe sounds somewhat like the Gerrit review process. Each commit is reviewed individually, but sending multiple dependent commits for review is supported as well. It is technically possible for a coworker to build on top of your unsubmitted changes (by checking out your commits and adding more on top). However this process gets somewhat painful if the coworker updates their commits, which would require you to do a convoluted rebase.
- mdaniel 4y ago
  I played with Upsource back when it was their "static-analysis in the cloud," and it actually was cool, but holy hell it was a beast to get up and running, and (just like Qodana that they're trying now) the static analysis was(is?) indescribably hard to configure correctly to get meaningful results I've heard great things about Gerrit, but it also seems like one of those "strongly opinionated, mailing-list based" review systems, and trying to lobby for such a thing in the GitHub/GitLab web based world is practically a non-starter in my experience
  - prattmic 4y ago
    Gerrit is pretty strongly opinionated, but it is not mailing-list based. Review notifications are sent via email, but otherwise everything needs to be done via the web UI (or other tool using the API).

yewenjie 4y ago

I don't use any Jetbrains product and I have no idea how well-executed this is, but I am pleased to see a relatively smaller company competing against the almost monopoly of Microsoft's VS Code and GitHub.

mdaniel 4y ago
Err, you're aware that GitLab is MIT and Space is not even pretending to be open, right? IntelliJ and PyCharm Community are both Apache 2 licensed and are absolutely stellar <https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community> (I mean that they're not crippleware, they're outstanding products that just happen to omit Spring, SQL, and Django support from the Apache 2 versions)
- number6 4y ago
  I recently bought the Professional Edition of Pycharm after using it for years. The pro features are nice but nothing I missed. Definitely not Crippleware
  - mdaniel 4y ago
    I also forgot to include "remote executors" in that list for shops that use docker or similar machine learning setups; I can imagine that's a non-trivial market for PyCharm Pro
    - denimnerd42 4y ago
      vs code could always go this way in the future too. some of their most popular features are closed sourced freeware. they probably would never directly charge but it definitely violates the open source spirit when the guts of your IDE are closed off
      - number6 4y ago
        The out of the box experience of Pycharm is just amazing. Agreed you can do all this with VScodium or even Vim but it's all so much setup...

wiradikusuma 4y ago

We use Space due to GitLab's recent pricing changes. We like: - free git hosting - free slack-like with sub-thread - generous CI/CD - built-in issue tracker - built-in wiki - very snappy - has mobile app We don't like: - CI/CD script uses Kotlin DSL, feels "heavy". - Issue tracker very basic, we end up using YouTrack. Still don't know how to integrate it lol. - One project can have multiple repos, but they all share same permission. So we end up creating multiple projects e.g. mobile app, web, backend. - Regarding multiple projects.. we end up creating another project just to contain wiki. - Cannot trigger based on tag. We end up creating branch for different environment. - Difficulty in writing CI/CD script due to limited documentation/knowledge on the net and unfriendly keyword ("space"? Lol. You have to type "Jetbrains space automation (keyword here)" - At certain times VERY slow. - Notifications in Mobile App sometimes not working. We find confusing: - Calendar - Video call Confusing because why add more features that's already best served by other services?

badloginagain 4y ago
Feels like there's a big race to be the all-in-one everything tool for everything. It's Gitlabs whole schtick, GitHub is moving in that direction, now "also Jetbrains". IMO I think something like Jetbrains should be leaning into integration, not all-in-one. Connective tissue last longer than walled garden.
- delusional 4y ago
  There's no money in integration. It's very easy to get approval for some big shiny tool with a frontend and 19 different features. It's very difficult to get corporate approval for a tiny integration thing that makes 5 of those features work with some others in a different tool. "Can't you just type it in manually?"
  - dijit 4y ago
    Is that true? A large part of the value add of Asana is that it integrates with everything. They’re probably the most expensive issue tracking tool (many times the amount we’d pay for Jira), but it’s extremely worthwhile for us so we pay it.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

I suspect a lot of the success of this will hinge on how friendly it is to tools outside the Jetbrains ecosystem. In particular VSCode. On my team in our little startup doing Rust it's sort of 50/50 CLion vs VSCode. And in many ways we're getting okayish value out of just GitHub + Notion + Google Docs. I'm a big Jetbrains fanboy and an IntelliJ user since the 3.x days. I hope it works out for them.

smrtinsert 4y ago
This is my exp too. Shops are usually majority Jetbrains but then there's those people who just refuse to switch and they like Sublime and vscode.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Xcode, Eclipse, Notepad++, VS and VScode over here.
pjmlp 4y ago
With Microsoft increasing adoption of Rust, I imagine eventually they will ramp up their investment into Rust IDE tooling.

lopatin 4y ago

Someone's already working on an Eclipse plugin.

sghiassy 4y ago

It’s like a boatcar. A boat and a car, rolled into one. What could go wrong

dixie_land 4y ago

Jetbrains pivots towards integrated solutions unfortunately reminds me of the demise of Delphi when Borland moved to "ALM". Hopefully IntelliJ fares better

mdaniel 4y ago
I cannot tell you the amount of "shut up and take my money" if they'd wire IJ analysis into Space, because while they've been trying to ship Qodana for a while, holy hell it's executed poorly. With Space, how can they _not_ have the expertise to have a checkbox that says "run our inspections upon this code" without having to have a PhD in both CI and IJ
pjmlp 4y ago
They started to remind me of Borland when they came up with Kotlin and with Google's help, started to see the JVM only as a means to bootsptrap their own Kotlin ecosystem.

jpalomaki 4y ago

Interesting that they are also offering on-prem option for Space [1], currently in beta. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/space/download/ https://www.jetbrains.com/space/download/

wseqyrku 4y ago

Overall looks like GitLab and YouTrack. Both have awful UI. GH which I'm most comfortable with looks like neither.

lumost 4y ago

Curious what folks use for "all-in-one" development? I'm increasingly finding that I don't have the time/inclination to learn yet another tool for getting basic work done. I've loved working with AWS copilot, and I want to use something like space - but curious what folks have found.

lastdong 4y ago

Jetbrains is so good, it scares me they’ll become the next microsoft.

mdaniel 4y ago
In my experience, no one is forced to use JetBrains, but there are innumerable work setups that mandate Windows and thus a lot of the Microsoft tooling that implies It's also hard to distinguish from outside of that ecosystem how much Microsoft is pretending to play developer advocate in pursuit of the infamous E.E.E. strategy versus PR damage control versus they really do want to ship good dev tooling. I bring that up because if one is afraid of JetBrains morphing into Microsoft, that question brings up "what is Microsoft's motivation" in order to compare how much JetBrains would, or aims to, have those same motivations. I'm thrilled out of my mind to pay JetBrains the $whatever/year they ask of me because I unquestionably get that much value out of them. And that's not even counting the amount of benefit I get from being able to fix bugs in IJ Community and PyCharm Community due to them being Open. That leads me to believe JetBrains Browser, JetBrains Office, and JetBrains OS are likely quite a ways off because they have plenty of healthy marketshare as it is

lobota 4y ago

The chats, calendars and CI/CD into one is top for our team. Really can help us stop using multiple tabs and tools

RitKun1122 4y ago

I've canceled my Jetbrains subscription this year after about 10 years. While Goland is gold, Webstorm was a constant source of issues and annoyances. VS Code is light years ahead in the JS world supporting Vue (Volar), Svelte, Tailwind - to name a few. In Webstorm, essential bugs / missing feature are open for years. Fixing Tailwind support took ages - no idea if it's working properly now. After switching to VS Code I found that almost everything you get with Jetbrains IDEs is available (often better) as a VS Code extension. The only area where Jetbrain has an edge is their integration with DataGrip, which is brilliant. But then, turned out DataGrip doesn't support the recent SQLite version. The answer from the Jetbrains support was a link to an open source repo that was not maintained anymore (or for a period of time - who knows). That's what I go after paying for 10 years for their ultimate package. Now I'm a more than happy VS Code user. The only thing I really miss is DataGrip. Instead of fixing their core products, they're creating new ones like Space. That is of course legitimate. They have all the right in the world trying to make more money. But it won't be my money.