15 ms·

Germany pushes for ‘pay as you fly’ model

210 points by helsinkiandrew 4y ago

justWells 4y ago
How would an airline capacity plan with just a reservation? Seems like a backwards approach to just mandating the airline pay you back if they fail to provide service
- foepys 4y ago
  Airlines are already overbooking flights. The whole thing came up because airlines don't pay back customers in a timely manner. It can takes months to get your money back from airlines even when the airline is fully at fault.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    IcelandAir gave me a credit instead of refund when they canceled my flight in early COVID days. I called asking for a refund and was refused. The credit expired before I could use it. Why is there an expiration? This was in excess of $2000. I’ll never fly IcelandAir again.
    - rich_sasha 4y ago
      In (un)fairness it sounds like what all airlines do.
      - plugin-baby 4y ago
        British Airways gave straight refunds automatically at the start of the pandemic.
    - ascar 4y ago
      My Ryanair Tickets were also converted to credits, but I was able to ask for money when they expired.
    - consp 4y ago
      Since Iceland is in the EU, you should check a bit more if that's allowed. I'm pretty sure it isn't and when the credit expires you should still be able to collect the original amount, at least that is what happened in some other instances to avoid liquidity crisis with airlines and holiday agencies.
      - zaarn 4y ago
        Iceland is not in the EU. They are in the process of joining since like a decade but have never completed their application. They are in the EFTA and the EEA however.
        osivertsson 4y ago
        According to an Icelandic friend not fully joining the EU is on purpose. There are people on Iceland that enjoys the benefits of EFTA and EEA, yet does not want to fully tackle corruption. Iceland is the most corrupt Nordic country by far (yet on a global scale still pretty good).
        zaarn 4y ago
        Well yes and no, the topmost reason is that rural folk simply are very eurosceptic there (see polls on that matter) and the election system favors them a bit, so overall, the eurosceptic parties remain in power (for now). Though I've yet to see an analysis on the matter since Russia's imperialistic invasion of Ukraine.
      - magicalhippo 4y ago
        Iceland, like Norway where I'm from, is part of the European Economic Area[1] through the European Free Trade Association[2], but not a full EU-member. They get access to the EU single market, by agreeing to implement EU legislation in a number of areas. It can be quite confusing at times. For example, both Iceland and Norway are part of the Schengen agreement[3], so in that respect we're "from EU" when traveling. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Associatio... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement
    - jules 4y ago
      How is this not straight up fraud?
- asdajksah2123 4y ago
  The article covers it right at the end. > “Everyone must be aware that at the time of booking you are entering into a contract of carriage that is subject to certain conditions, such as no-show and/or rebooking fees.”
- markeibes 4y ago
  They already plan deviously right now by overbooking.
  - kortilla 4y ago
    s/deviously/optimally I don’t care about the financial success of airlines but I sure as fuck don’t want jet fuel burned pushing around empty seats.
    - kashkhan 4y ago
      Sure you do. Airplanes should be at least 10% empty on average. High load factors are bad for the travellers. If you want to save fuel fly 5% slower and save 10% fuel.
      - TomatoTomato 4y ago
        Are you saying maximizing load factors are worse for fuel economy or just slowing down would be a preferred cost saving measure in your opinion? Average load factor in the US is already <90%. Either way, what about the unintended consequences for travellers if a slow down was mandated permanently? You would need at least 15% more planes, pilots, ground personnel, etc... to handle the reduced bandwidth. For non-direct flights, fewer connections could be made likely increasing the airport population its ancillary services. Airlines already do this from time to time usually when fuel costs outpaces pricing power: https://www.reuters.com/article/airlines-fuelcells-kemp/refile-column-airlines-fly-slower-to-cut-fuel-bill-kemp-idUSL6N0RR2ZO20140926 https://www.reuters.com/article/airlines-fuelcells-kemp/refi...
        sokoloff 4y ago
        When load factors get too high, recovery from irregular ops (weather, crew, or mechanical disruptions) becomes a nightmare for passengers. People end up stranded for days without available seats.
        kashkhan 4y ago
- nehalem 4y ago
  In this context and under German law, a reservation would be an enforceable contract between passenger and airline. If a passenger does not show up, the airline can sue for payment. Hence the proposal mostly shifts the burden of litigation to the airline. In Germany, airlines have a strong incentive to refuse any refund. Courts are very slow to render decisions and the worst that can happen is being ordered to refund the original amount. Behaviour-correcting damages do not exist under German law. In combination this deters some passengers from pursuing their claim. Edit: Airlines would also be ordered to pay court and lawyer fees which could be construed incentivising. Yet both fees are statutory capped and quite low for the average ticket price.
  - Ma8ee 4y ago
    > the worst that can happen is being ordered to refund the original amount. That just isn't true. The airlines often pretend that isn't the case, but just linking to, e.g., the site below usually make them pay without too much hassle. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...
    - nehalem 4y ago
      Those are passenger rights, a set of rules different from German laws of contract. Also, for cancellations there is no compensation if the flight was cancelled early enough or if the airline can prove exceptional circumstances.
      - Ma8ee 4y ago
        All airlines starting or landing in Germany have to follow those laws. It’s inconsequential whether they are directly codified in German law or not. It’s correct that they aren’t without conditions, but I don’t think anyone think they should be. They have to compensate you if they cancel the flight less than 2 weeks before departure. I’ve gotten €600 twice after different delays or reroutings. So while you can have opinions about the exact conditions, you can’t argue there are none.
    - 4y ago
- skrause 4y ago
  They are mandated to pay you back if they fail to provide service. However, that doesn't help you in case of a bankruptcy. Paying months ahead is basically giving the airline an unsecured loan and lots of German consumers were hit when Air Berling went bankrupt. Under German bankruptcy laws even a credit card chargeback won't help you, that money is mostly gone.
- physicsguy 4y ago
  Probably put an authorisation on the card at booking time, similar to how hotels do
- ars 4y ago
  Never mind that --- how am I supposed to plan a time critical journey if I don't know in advance if I'll actually have a seat on the plane? This kind of pay-on-the-spot only works when there's tons of capacity, if you don't take this one, you'll get the next, no problem, and where the provider doesn't need 100% usage, i.e. where costs are incremental rather than fixed. And airplane fails that criteria in both ways. This plan is bad for both airline and customer.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    You sign a contract that requires the airline to fly on a certain date and you to pay on a specified date. The only change from today in the normal case is that the two dates are the same. The big changes are in two unusual cases: ① The airline closes before you fly, such as Swissair, Air Berlin etc. In that case you don't pay. ② The airline cancels your reservation, as many did during the early covid phase. In that case you and the airline quarrel about nonperformance of the contract, just as you do now, but you have the money during the quarrel instead of the airline offering you a voucher.
- cm2187 4y ago
  It would make more sense for the payment to be put on escrow.
- mihaaly 4y ago
  "How would an airline capacity plan with just a reservation?" Responsibly perhaps? So they make the most effort to make sure the service is delivered since it will only be paid if they can deliver? I know it is a novelty idea paying for only the received service when received, something never been used throughout the history before as one always had to pay well in advance and then may or may not receive the service paid for, but perhaps we could get used to this very novel and revolutionary idea, no? : ) I believe this paying for something not delivered yet and run circles getting back if not delivered at all on the agreed terms is in the benefit of the airlines. Being abused many many times. Otherwise we wouldn't have needed extensive and stict regulations about compensations. This may change. There is a desire for it from customers.
  - drstewart 4y ago
    Will you be okay with prices going up significantly to account for the fact that scheduling is now done "responsively" and thus efficiency is at a much lower capacity? : )
berndi 4y ago
- nehalem 4y ago
  I don’t think that this regulation would make any ticket cancelable. For one, the booking would still be an enforceable contract. But the airline would have to enforce it now. But a more likely scenario would be to hold the payment in escrow, release it on check in and refund it on cancellation. A bit like Paypal‘s buyer protection.
  - TheMechanist 4y ago
    This would work out great !!! Except - you know - for the hotel bookings, car hire and the museum tickets you bought in advance.
    - Arnt 4y ago
      Uhm, those aren't affected. The airline would have the same duty to transport you as now under the same kind of contract, the only change proposed is to charge your credit card on the day you fly instead of the day you order. The rest of the contract remains unchanged.
      - TheMechanist 4y ago
        What is a “duty” ? - https://youtu.be/A-brgkkjnHc https://youtu.be/A-brgkkjnHc
- kioleanu 4y ago
  I almost broke my neck on that slippery slope there. Could you explain how that makes the ticket cancellable and most importantly how it would delay the boarding process since the money is taken at checkin? You would not be paying cash, most probably you would mandate the airline to retrieve the money from your account and they would do so upon checkin. And if this is a "hemmed" industry, I would hate to see one that doesn't have these regulations. Also, the 400 euros you mention don't just come to your account if the plane is delayed, you have to fight months to years on them and the airline will fight you back citing obscure "out of their hands" circumstances. Usually you have to hire a firm that takes 30% of the amount because the process is hard to navigate. I can show you on this doll where the hemmed industry touched me when RyanAir cancelled my flight and then refused to give the money back. Charge back was refused by the bank with a heartfelt letter saying that in this case I should wait for a refund because the times are hard for everybody. Then after 8 months they gave me my money back missing 60 euros, which the company pocketed. Or see the current situation in which they cancel flights and then say: oh yeah, oopsie, we'll board on the next flight which is 3 days, see you then. And then you get stranded in Mallorca because there is no way for you to get back. But you'll get 600 euros for this in a year or 2. Or see that company in Romania (also EU) that this year sold 178k tickets they never meant to honor. You would buy a ticket and then they would cancel the flight the next day - no fines here, they just have to give the money back but good luck with that. This measure would solve this problem.
88840-8855 4y ago
Why this wont work: must be done on EU level, not in tiny little Germany. This wont get momentum on EU level, hence, the (actually great) idea will die. great idea or populism to mask the absolute failure in German politics in the past 20-30 years. If we didnt have the old industries (that the post-Nazi generation built), we would be doomed.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Perceptions of Germanys place in the EU from both inside and outside Germany are interesting. Inside Germany: "we have these great ideas, but the rest of the EU won't cooperate". Outside Germany: "Germany is basically the big bossman of the EU, along with France. What they say usually goes".
ginko 4y ago
I worry that this would essentially make it easier for airlines to drop passengers in the long run. Right now if your EU flight is cancelled you're entitled to a monetary compensation[1] on top getting your ticket money back. I worry that letting the airlines simply not charge you will allow them to wiggle out of this, or make the process to get it even more Byzantine than it already is. [1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#compensation-cancellation https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...
- kashkhan 4y ago
  Actually the opposite might happen. Airlines would keep empty seats to sell at a premium at last moment. A business that rejects customers willing to pay top dollar is suboptimal. The startegy today is to make artificial scarcity. If the customer has more power the strategy changes.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    Airlines keep seats to sell at the last moment now.
    - karatinversion 4y ago
      I thought they famously did the opposite of this by overbooking flights
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        That's relatively rarer in Europe compared to USA.
        BiteCode_dev 4y ago
        Don't know for all europe, but air france overbook all the flights Source: my father was working with the CEO.
      - 4y ago
Szpadel 4y ago
what about when payment will be declined on check-in? will they allow flight and then demand payment or will they just don't allow to board? also what if check-in will be done online day before and flight will be canceled? I think that there is a lot of corner cases left uncovered and available for abuse
- alkonaut 4y ago
  If I were an airline I'd hook up a credit company middle man that pays the airline on reservation and owns the obligation. If the transaction on check-in doesn't work, then the customer owns the credit company money, not the airline who was already paid. This makes it exactly the same as buying the ticket with a credit card.
  - nraynaud 4y ago
    it looks like it's called "factoring" in English.
- kioleanu 4y ago
  Would probably do what all other companies do: still provide the service and then based on the owed amount, they would send 3 warnings and then: 1. If the amount is small, just send them to Inkasso/Schufa, which will hinder their ability to close basically any other contract, from mobile phone to renting an apartment 2. Enforce collection through civil litigation via a lawyer firm 3. Sell the debt to a collection agency I think #1 would happen regardless
- helsinkiandrew 4y ago
  Presumably they would use a standard credit card hold - where the amount is verified and user has that amount reduced from their maximum limit and then the amount is only settled at check-in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_hold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_hold
coffeeblack 4y ago
The result would be more empty seats in planes when people don’t show up for flights they booked.
- kashkhan 4y ago
  and that would make the service better, and eventually cheaper, instead of flying 60 year old designs.
  - ars 4y ago
    How would that possibly be cheaper? It costs almost exactly the same to fly a full airplane vs an empty one. If airplanes are not full, then prices have to go up, not down.
    - kioleanu 4y ago
      Mind you that the company still receives the money regardless, the only change is that they have to enforce the contract (not the other way around). Here in Germany, you would probably mandate them to charge your bank account directly and that is almost, if not impossible to get out of. A very possible outcome I see here is that you would probably be given a window in which to checkin, which will no longer hold until 2 hours before the flight, so they can sell the seats that were not claimed a second time
      - coffeeblack 4y ago
        Not everywhere is “here in Germany”. In most countries around the world, this would be as nightmare.
    - kashkhan 4y ago
      MIT already has aircraft designs that use 50% less fuel per seat-mile. If more of the plane is empty there is higher incentive to reduce seat mile cost especially if average seat mile revenue is lower.
flipbrad 4y ago
This feels like a complex solution, compared to just making the airlines pay interest on top of the sum they owe to the consumer. That would make repayments quasi-instant
habosa 4y ago
While this seems consumer friendly, I imagine that such a massive negative shift in the cash flow mechanics for airlines would result in them having to raise prices or degrade service.
- i5heu 4y ago
  if you don't get your fly because TSA takes 5h... how much more can you degrade service?
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Which airport are you flying out of where TSA takes five hours? I fly out of ATL - the worlds busiest airport - and it never took more than an hour. This was before I got TSA PreCheck last year.
    - i5heu 4y ago
      The world is not only the USA. There are other nations, some have a very big worker shortage. (not comparable to the USA worker shortage - there are situations that are different from the situation in the USA)
      - scarface74 4y ago
        The parent poster mentioned “TSA”. The TSA is an American government agency. If you are flying in another country, you’re not going in a TSA line.
deleted 4y ago
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wolframhempel 4y ago
I'm wondering if it makes sense to split the difference by allowing airlines to block the amount on the passenger's credit card upon reservation, but only charge them upon check in. This way, the risk of non-payments or problems processing the payment on the check in counter would be minimized.
- ginko 4y ago
  Plane tickets are often bought months ahead of time. Does it make sense to block an amount of credit for that long?
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    It's not even possible. Most card networks let pre-authorizations expire after 7 or 30 days [1], you'd need new laws for that. Additionally, this will be a massive headache for business travelers that use their private credit cards - usually, you'd book a flight and file for reimbursement at the employer, which you then use to pay down the CC bill. Now when you book a larger amount of flights, suddenly you may end up with your CC running into its limit because all the flights are technically still "on hold" and can't be paid off. [1] https://docs.adyen.com/online-payments/adjust-authorisation https://docs.adyen.com/online-payments/adjust-authorisation
- Roark66 4y ago
  In Europe credit cards are less popular. Most people I know use debit cards with a special "virtual" debit card for Internet purchases. In this situation blocking a certain amount on your card is almost functionally equivalent to taking a payment in advance. The customer has to transfer all the money to their "virtual" card account and the money is blocked. The only time when blocking is better is when it comes to the refund, but that too can be botched by airlines by for example automatically completing the payment at a time of supposed check-in. A much better way would be to pay an advance. Let's say 25%.
  - m2fkxy 4y ago
    pre-authorisations are a thing on debit-cards, hotels and gas stations e.g. work with them a lot.
TheMechanist 4y ago
Yes - I am sure this would work out well - like it does with car reservations. https://youtu.be/A-brgkkjnHc https://youtu.be/A-brgkkjnHc
ramboldio 4y ago
*A German state pushes for..
- xcambar 4y ago
  True but I was happy to read it could be as soon as Sept. 16 on the federal agenda.
  - ramboldio 4y ago
    ..to be rejected.
Beldin 4y ago
The idea is to only charge for flights upon checkin. There are a myriad of problems with this, to name two: - an attacker could easily book many flights without checking in. This would cause the airline to fly at a loss. - customers do not control when checkin starts, airlines do. An airline could easily play tricks (checking 1hr before boarding). Wrt the 2nd one: this is easily mitigated by having a mandatory eg 2-week period for checkin... but then we're sort of where we are today, just with more uncertainty if the bookers can actually pay for their flights. So, not a big fan.
- Yizahi 4y ago
  Also would likely lead to even more overbooking, screwing real travelers more often.
- flashfaffe2 4y ago
  Agreed with all above. I would add that this won't help customers either as regardless you paid upon check-in or not, this does not address the ultimate point for customers: go to their destination on agreed time.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    It helps in two cases: ① The airline closes suddenly, as has happened twice in Germany in the past years (Swissair and Air Berlin both left many Germans with paid tickets and cancelled flights). ② the airline cancels that flight or just that ticket, in which case the airline has to quarrel with its customer(s). It's advantageous for the customers to hold the money during that quarrel.
    - flashfaffe2 4y ago
      As customer who experienced this not far than yesterday, my priority was to flight asap. Not to enter in litigation with the company ( which is incredibly painful). Moreover if you pay your ticket peanut ( Ryanair or easyJet in Europe), I doubt you will consolate yourself with that advancement.
    - 4y ago
zarzavat 4y ago
This is a terrible idea. Many people fly on tickets bought by other people. E.g. business travelers, children flying alone. So for all of those passengers, they will not be able to pay at the airport. Moreover, not everybody is plumbed into the German banking system. If you came to Germany from abroad, is your foreign debit card going to work at the airport? Who knows! It’s unreasonable for passengers to not know if they will be able to pay for the flight, until 3 hours before. What if their bank’s anti-fraud puts a hold on the payment? What do they expect passengers to do, get on the phone to their bank while at the check in counter? Payment is made in advance to give passengers time to resolve payment issues. It is mutually beneficial for passengers and airlines.
- capableweb 4y ago
  > Moreover, not everybody is plumbed into the German banking system. If you came to Germany from abroad, is your foreign debit card going to work at the airport? Who knows! Is this really a worry? I have two debit cards (one issued in South America and another in Europe, one VISA and one MasterCard) and been traveling all over the world and don't think I've had issues with any of them for the last ~10 year or so. Used to be a bit hit&miss, but not in "modern times".
  - zarzavat 4y ago
    It’s absolutely an issue. I was in Turkey and could not get the luggage trolley dispenser to accept my card to give me a trolley. I had to carry my bags across the airport. Annoying, but at least it wasn’t a flight! People come to airports from all over the world. You are going to hit every single payment edge case at an airport. Also people in airports often have limited ability to communicate. Consider: you arrive in Germany on an international flight, go through immigration, then wish to take a connecting local flight to your final destination. When you’re in landside transit you may have no working SIM card or any kind of communications with your bank. That’s why flights are based on confirmed itineraries and not payment at the check in counter.
- _pferreir_ 4y ago
  You would still be required to provide a credit card, like when you book a rental car. The card will often be charged later, but the payment is "cleared" in advanced.
jhoelzel 4y ago
A couple of weeks ago I was on a flight with ryanair in Berlin. We were about to enter the "plane waiting area", you know where Ryanair herds all the people before they go onto a bus. In front of me was a couple in the beginning of their 20s and none of them had a credit card or even debit card on them, because they had flown this flight a lot of times and they simply brought cash. Well... their bag was slightly oversized and of course Ryainair wanted them to pay for it. So far so good, but Ryanair ONLY accepts credit cards at this point to pay for your extra luggage, so the flight of the couple was just about to bekome much more stressfull (remember this is 15 minutes before actually leaving with the plane and you literally have nowhere to do it in cash). If I had not seen that exchange and traded cash for putting my card down, that couple would have had one sad vacation of two weeks. All in all, airports are not equipped for this influx of "i will pay right now", because simply they are understaffed as is.
- stavros 4y ago
  If there's a place that doesn't accept cash, it's the place's fault. Cash is what's legal tender, credit cards are the convenience. The airport is absolutely in the wrong here.
  - jhoelzel 4y ago
    While true, the Lady at the desk still would not have let them pass. and once the plane is gone...
    - stavros 4y ago
      Yeah, certainly, there isn't much they could do than complain afterwards (probably fruitlessly), sadly.
  - ddevault 4y ago
    Businesses should be required by law to accept cash for in-person transactions. Philadelphia was the first US city to ban cashless stores a couple of years ago and it was a great move for convenience and equity.
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Kipters 4y ago
I wonder how that would work for EU-261 [0] since in Europe you're not only entitled to refund, but to compensation [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Compensation_Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Compensation_Regulation
- d1sxeyes 4y ago
  Exactly the same as the current system, except you keep your money until you're checked in. The airline will still have a legal obligation to compensate (in relevant cases).
dna_polymerase 4y ago
> “The booking systems would have to be programmed and supplemented accordingly in order to enable the ‘pay as you check-in’ solution and make it the standard,” Carnier said. Spoken like a true software engineer. From my experience with people booking and taking appointments I can assure you, the airlines would be out of business within a month. If there is no upfront payment people just won't show up. Nobody cares anymore. The average person is too unreliable these days.
- notahacker 4y ago
  > Spoken like a true software engineer. And not a software engineer who's worked on airline PSS systems :D
quickthrower2 4y ago
Ryanair I imagine will do a workaround. Buy an inflight meal meal for 50EUR (advance payment) and the flight is free.
not_me_ever 4y ago
Another stupid idea by politicians who try to fix the service they don't understand. “The subsequent bureaucracy of cancelling ticket bookings and transferring the money back would be over with.” Good one. I had a flight (DUS 2 MUC) cancelled yesterday (due to strikes). Two clicks in the app, and the money was back in my account 20 minutes later. This law will only do 2 things: a) Increase prices for tickets b) Will create a lot of friction. Just imaging you credit card being stolen/lost a day before the flight. Or you accidentally spending your credit on something else before the money is taken. If you buy a cinema ticket for next weeks premiere, do you want to pay now, and have the ticket safe, or pay when you actually go to the cinema.
- disgu 4y ago
  > If you buy a cinema ticket for next weeks premiere, do you want to pay now, and have the ticket safe, or pay when you actually go to the cinema. But you can already reserve a seat at the cinema and if your local cinema happens to screw up on a frequent basis then you'd probably get a reservation instead of paying for the ticket beforehand.
- mihaaly 4y ago
  Probably you never fly budget airlines. Getting back your money is not two click and 20 minutes there. Also you could loose ticket (phone, paper) too, not only credit card. Actually you could drop your phone into the toilet at the airport or on the floor or run out of charge, etc, not like a credit card. Preauthorise/hold amount charged later is something there for long time already. I start to wonder who have no understanding here...
  - scarface74 4y ago
    If you have your ID, you go up to the counter and they reprint your ticket.
    - mihaaly 4y ago
      Which cannot be lost, unlike the card. : ))
londons_explore 4y ago
People seem to be focussing on the difficulty of dealing with reservations... But I see this model may be intended to get rid of reservations and maybe schedules entirely. If you see an advert that says "Fly to Berlin for €50.99", then you show up to the airport, see that there is a flight departing in 20 minutes, tap your card to pay the advertised price, and hop on the plane. If the plane is full, you wait for the next one in 2 hours. Airlines by now have good models of passenger flow, by looking at national holidays, sports events, holiday seasons, etc, so they should be able to get most flights full but not overfull. Basically the same pricing model as city busses. And it works fine there.
- notahacker 4y ago
  > Basically the same pricing model as city busses. And it works fine there. If airlines had the same operational cost and complexity as city buses. And it doesn't work "fine" there: most city buses are empty for much of their route and have people standing in the aisles at popular times. This is tolerable for a bus company where operational costs are minimal and people are legally allowed to stand, but impossible for an airline.
jkellermann 4y ago
Interesting! While the idea definitely offers advantages, I'd be keen to know what changes would have to be done in the Departure Control Systems (DCS). There needs to be connection to Customer Management (CML), Reservations (RES), Ticketing (TKT), Payment (PAY), etc... I was employed with Amadeus Data Systems for more than 10 years, have left during COVID period. This sounds like a big effort. I wonder how Lufthansa pulled this off in 2021...
pembrook 4y ago
So, I might be wrong, but I don’t think there’s a single airline on earth that is consistently minting high profits—the most profitable airline (delta) earns 10% margins…in a good year. Do we really need to make airline businesses even harder to run? If passengers really saw value in the PAYF model, any airline with growth ambitions (eg. Ryanair) could take massive market share by implementing. The free market already solves this. The fact that it’s uncommon tells me non-business travelers don’t see much value in it.
- bzxcvbn 4y ago
  Earth is burning. Yes, we need to make airlines' lives more difficult.
fxtentacle 4y ago
Great idea! This is basically already how online shopping with SEPA works in Germany. You place an order, type in billing data, they do a pre-authorization, and you get an instant "order confirmation". But the money is debited from your bank account only AFTER the vendor has sent out your parcel containing the goods. Plus, Lufthansa, the main airline for business travel, has been offering exactly this PAYF model for more than a year now. So they are suggesting to enshrine in law what some companies already negotiated privately.
gpjanik 4y ago
Pay to fly would create an incentive for airlines to overbook in each flight in order to ensure high utilisation in case of a no-show. Germany outperforms itself in idiotic ideas yet another time.
- ketzu 4y ago
  Airlines already do that.
ghaff 4y ago
This is essentially how rental cars generally work in the US. Both planes and hotels essentially almost always require credit cards. Hotels seem to have mostly liberalized cancelation policies--which had been starting to require more notice. And flights seem to be less likely to have fairly high e.g. $200 fees associated with changes.
balderdash 4y ago
I feel like it’s only about 15% of the time that a flight is canceled in advance of the 24hr check in window, most of the time it’s canceled after it’s scheduled departure time, so don’t really see any benefit here, if they only charged me once I arrived at my destination, that’s another story…
oaiey 4y ago
I think the only way is a reliable third party (like the booking company) where the customer still owns the money but it is temporal locked for the airline till like flight + 1h or so. Like the airline has a guarantee that the money shows up at the moment where it is needed and in doubt we could also have a system where the no-show fee can be "sub-locked". The consumer on the other hand, never waives the money over until he is needed to (by confirming to the no-show or actually flying). Similar systems exists for example for Visa guarantees. Interestingly, considering other success rates the airline should do they same for their punishment if they cancel ;)
codethief 4y ago
Did anyone actually read the article? This is not about literally paying at the check-in, nor is it about not having to pay if you do not check in. It's merely about delaying the payment transaction until check-in/departure time, so that in case the flight gets canceled beforehand, the customer does not have to request a refunding (which, as we all know, can be very cumbersome) but simply won't pay in the first place.
- goda90 4y ago
  As mentioned in other threads, I'd say this is still problematic because refunding isn't always the preferred outcome. Re-booking would be better in lots of scenarios(like you have to be someplace, even if a day late, or you already paid for accommodations that won't let you cancel), but if you hadn't even been charged, would the airline have any obligations to re-book you to your destination at the same price?
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    I'd say low cost flights/seat would get much more hazardous business for travelers, not knowing till last minute if airline cancels or not, with chances barely 50:50. I too would like to see an airline burn (more like pay up properly & help fixing their/airport shit) but we have to be careful and set incentives so they are not easily gamed on one side, and won't bankrupt airlines ie due to some heavy storms on the other.
teeray 4y ago
> where payment for plane tickets is processed upon check-in. Well, then they’d check you in and cancel the flight. The payment needs to be processed on takeoff for incentives to be correct.
rs999gti 4y ago
> Going it alone in Germany Germany is the California of Europe
cratermoon 4y ago
Coincidentally, I'm finishing my second week as a consultant on a check-in modernization project for an airline. Most airlines are still using systems from 20+ years ago, and while they mostly work, they are EOL from the vendor. Anyway, this change would throw a wrench in this project's plans, but at least they have something in progress that can track it. For airlines that haven't yet started or even planning to replace the old system, they are going to have to scramble. Airlines already collect money when you check in in many cases: seat/class upgrades (both pushed by the airlines check-in process to up revenue) and extra bags, and a few other things. Moving the payment collection for the ticket itself to time-of-reservation to time-of-check-in would take work, but probably not totally upend the modernization plan.
lxgr 4y ago
Important context: Credit cards are still much less common in Germany, and banks are not exactly very consumer-friendly when it comes to processing chargebacks. Anyone paying a flight ticket with a non-disputable payment method (or one where the reversal period times out after 8 weeks, such as SEPA direct debit) is pretty much at the mercy of the airline voluntarily (or through legal action) returning the money. I've been waiting for 10 months for a similar reimbursement now... When the country's second-largest airline went bankrupt in 2017, many banks refused to file chargebacks due to legal uncertainty around whether doing so might be considered unlawful interference with the bankruptcy proceedings. (The bankruptcy manager fueled these by actually sending out invoices supporting that claim.) In the context of credit/most debit card paid tickets, this is largely a non-issue, since cancelled flights (in addition to merchant bankruptcy) are usually explicitly covered under the "service not provided" chargeback provisions of the schemes.
tristor 4y ago
Sounds like a boon for airlines as they owe you nothing and have established no contractual obligation since they haven’t yet collected payment (consideration). Airlines are already regulated to reimburse passengers above and beyond for cancellations in Europe, this seems like a regulatory capture attempt to get out of the consequences of failing infrastructure.
dr_faustus 4y ago
It‘s a stupid idea with all kinds of problems. What if, for some reason, your bank account is empty or your CC is over the limit at the time of departure. The transaction might fail and your flight will be canceled hours before departure. You won’t be able to book some other flight on such short notice, etc.pp.. There is a much easier fix. You give the airlines 2 weeks to refund the money. The have to refund it without any forms etc. because the damn well know who booked and paid a flight they canceled. Every day the overrun the 2 weeks, the refund is automatically increased by 5 percent. I have no doubt, 99% of refunds will be paid out after two weeks.
kurupt213 4y ago
But how would they charge absurd rebooking fees?

How would an airline capacity plan with just a reservation? Seems like a backwards approach to just mandating the airline pay you back if they fail to provide service

foepys 4y ago
Airlines are already overbooking flights. The whole thing came up because airlines don't pay back customers in a timely manner. It can takes months to get your money back from airlines even when the airline is fully at fault.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  IcelandAir gave me a credit instead of refund when they canceled my flight in early COVID days. I called asking for a refund and was refused. The credit expired before I could use it. Why is there an expiration? This was in excess of $2000. I’ll never fly IcelandAir again.
  - rich_sasha 4y ago
    In (un)fairness it sounds like what all airlines do.
    - plugin-baby 4y ago
      British Airways gave straight refunds automatically at the start of the pandemic.
  - ascar 4y ago
    My Ryanair Tickets were also converted to credits, but I was able to ask for money when they expired.
  - consp 4y ago
    Since Iceland is in the EU, you should check a bit more if that's allowed. I'm pretty sure it isn't and when the credit expires you should still be able to collect the original amount, at least that is what happened in some other instances to avoid liquidity crisis with airlines and holiday agencies.
    - zaarn 4y ago
      Iceland is not in the EU. They are in the process of joining since like a decade but have never completed their application. They are in the EFTA and the EEA however.
      - osivertsson 4y ago
        According to an Icelandic friend not fully joining the EU is on purpose. There are people on Iceland that enjoys the benefits of EFTA and EEA, yet does not want to fully tackle corruption. Iceland is the most corrupt Nordic country by far (yet on a global scale still pretty good).
        zaarn 4y ago
        Well yes and no, the topmost reason is that rural folk simply are very eurosceptic there (see polls on that matter) and the election system favors them a bit, so overall, the eurosceptic parties remain in power (for now). Though I've yet to see an analysis on the matter since Russia's imperialistic invasion of Ukraine.
    - magicalhippo 4y ago
      Iceland, like Norway where I'm from, is part of the European Economic Area[1] through the European Free Trade Association[2], but not a full EU-member. They get access to the EU single market, by agreeing to implement EU legislation in a number of areas. It can be quite confusing at times. For example, both Iceland and Norway are part of the Schengen agreement[3], so in that respect we're "from EU" when traveling. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Associatio... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement
  - jules 4y ago
    How is this not straight up fraud?
asdajksah2123 4y ago
The article covers it right at the end. > “Everyone must be aware that at the time of booking you are entering into a contract of carriage that is subject to certain conditions, such as no-show and/or rebooking fees.”
markeibes 4y ago
They already plan deviously right now by overbooking.
- kortilla 4y ago
  s/deviously/optimally I don’t care about the financial success of airlines but I sure as fuck don’t want jet fuel burned pushing around empty seats.
  - kashkhan 4y ago
    Sure you do. Airplanes should be at least 10% empty on average. High load factors are bad for the travellers. If you want to save fuel fly 5% slower and save 10% fuel.
    - TomatoTomato 4y ago
      Are you saying maximizing load factors are worse for fuel economy or just slowing down would be a preferred cost saving measure in your opinion? Average load factor in the US is already <90%. Either way, what about the unintended consequences for travellers if a slow down was mandated permanently? You would need at least 15% more planes, pilots, ground personnel, etc... to handle the reduced bandwidth. For non-direct flights, fewer connections could be made likely increasing the airport population its ancillary services. Airlines already do this from time to time usually when fuel costs outpaces pricing power: https://www.reuters.com/article/airlines-fuelcells-kemp/refile-column-airlines-fly-slower-to-cut-fuel-bill-kemp-idUSL6N0RR2ZO20140926 https://www.reuters.com/article/airlines-fuelcells-kemp/refi...
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        When load factors get too high, recovery from irregular ops (weather, crew, or mechanical disruptions) becomes a nightmare for passengers. People end up stranded for days without available seats.
      - kashkhan 4y ago
nehalem 4y ago
In this context and under German law, a reservation would be an enforceable contract between passenger and airline. If a passenger does not show up, the airline can sue for payment. Hence the proposal mostly shifts the burden of litigation to the airline. In Germany, airlines have a strong incentive to refuse any refund. Courts are very slow to render decisions and the worst that can happen is being ordered to refund the original amount. Behaviour-correcting damages do not exist under German law. In combination this deters some passengers from pursuing their claim. Edit: Airlines would also be ordered to pay court and lawyer fees which could be construed incentivising. Yet both fees are statutory capped and quite low for the average ticket price.
- Ma8ee 4y ago
  > the worst that can happen is being ordered to refund the original amount. That just isn't true. The airlines often pretend that isn't the case, but just linking to, e.g., the site below usually make them pay without too much hassle. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...
  - nehalem 4y ago
    Those are passenger rights, a set of rules different from German laws of contract. Also, for cancellations there is no compensation if the flight was cancelled early enough or if the airline can prove exceptional circumstances.
    - Ma8ee 4y ago
      All airlines starting or landing in Germany have to follow those laws. It’s inconsequential whether they are directly codified in German law or not. It’s correct that they aren’t without conditions, but I don’t think anyone think they should be. They have to compensate you if they cancel the flight less than 2 weeks before departure. I’ve gotten €600 twice after different delays or reroutings. So while you can have opinions about the exact conditions, you can’t argue there are none.
  - 4y ago
skrause 4y ago
They are mandated to pay you back if they fail to provide service. However, that doesn't help you in case of a bankruptcy. Paying months ahead is basically giving the airline an unsecured loan and lots of German consumers were hit when Air Berling went bankrupt. Under German bankruptcy laws even a credit card chargeback won't help you, that money is mostly gone.
physicsguy 4y ago
Probably put an authorisation on the card at booking time, similar to how hotels do
ars 4y ago
Never mind that --- how am I supposed to plan a time critical journey if I don't know in advance if I'll actually have a seat on the plane? This kind of pay-on-the-spot only works when there's tons of capacity, if you don't take this one, you'll get the next, no problem, and where the provider doesn't need 100% usage, i.e. where costs are incremental rather than fixed. And airplane fails that criteria in both ways. This plan is bad for both airline and customer.
- Arnt 4y ago
  You sign a contract that requires the airline to fly on a certain date and you to pay on a specified date. The only change from today in the normal case is that the two dates are the same. The big changes are in two unusual cases: ① The airline closes before you fly, such as Swissair, Air Berlin etc. In that case you don't pay. ② The airline cancels your reservation, as many did during the early covid phase. In that case you and the airline quarrel about nonperformance of the contract, just as you do now, but you have the money during the quarrel instead of the airline offering you a voucher.
cm2187 4y ago
It would make more sense for the payment to be put on escrow.
mihaaly 4y ago
"How would an airline capacity plan with just a reservation?" Responsibly perhaps? So they make the most effort to make sure the service is delivered since it will only be paid if they can deliver? I know it is a novelty idea paying for only the received service when received, something never been used throughout the history before as one always had to pay well in advance and then may or may not receive the service paid for, but perhaps we could get used to this very novel and revolutionary idea, no? : ) I believe this paying for something not delivered yet and run circles getting back if not delivered at all on the agreed terms is in the benefit of the airlines. Being abused many many times. Otherwise we wouldn't have needed extensive and stict regulations about compensations. This may change. There is a desire for it from customers.
- drstewart 4y ago
  Will you be okay with prices going up significantly to account for the fact that scheduling is now done "responsively" and thus efficiency is at a much lower capacity? : )

berndi 4y ago

nehalem 4y ago
I don’t think that this regulation would make any ticket cancelable. For one, the booking would still be an enforceable contract. But the airline would have to enforce it now. But a more likely scenario would be to hold the payment in escrow, release it on check in and refund it on cancellation. A bit like Paypal‘s buyer protection.
- TheMechanist 4y ago
  This would work out great !!! Except - you know - for the hotel bookings, car hire and the museum tickets you bought in advance.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    Uhm, those aren't affected. The airline would have the same duty to transport you as now under the same kind of contract, the only change proposed is to charge your credit card on the day you fly instead of the day you order. The rest of the contract remains unchanged.
    - TheMechanist 4y ago
      What is a “duty” ? - https://youtu.be/A-brgkkjnHc https://youtu.be/A-brgkkjnHc
kioleanu 4y ago
I almost broke my neck on that slippery slope there. Could you explain how that makes the ticket cancellable and most importantly how it would delay the boarding process since the money is taken at checkin? You would not be paying cash, most probably you would mandate the airline to retrieve the money from your account and they would do so upon checkin. And if this is a "hemmed" industry, I would hate to see one that doesn't have these regulations. Also, the 400 euros you mention don't just come to your account if the plane is delayed, you have to fight months to years on them and the airline will fight you back citing obscure "out of their hands" circumstances. Usually you have to hire a firm that takes 30% of the amount because the process is hard to navigate. I can show you on this doll where the hemmed industry touched me when RyanAir cancelled my flight and then refused to give the money back. Charge back was refused by the bank with a heartfelt letter saying that in this case I should wait for a refund because the times are hard for everybody. Then after 8 months they gave me my money back missing 60 euros, which the company pocketed. Or see the current situation in which they cancel flights and then say: oh yeah, oopsie, we'll board on the next flight which is 3 days, see you then. And then you get stranded in Mallorca because there is no way for you to get back. But you'll get 600 euros for this in a year or 2. Or see that company in Romania (also EU) that this year sold 178k tickets they never meant to honor. You would buy a ticket and then they would cancel the flight the next day - no fines here, they just have to give the money back but good luck with that. This measure would solve this problem.

88840-8855 4y ago

Why this wont work: must be done on EU level, not in tiny little Germany. This wont get momentum on EU level, hence, the (actually great) idea will die. great idea or populism to mask the absolute failure in German politics in the past 20-30 years. If we didnt have the old industries (that the post-Nazi generation built), we would be doomed.

nibbleshifter 4y ago
Perceptions of Germanys place in the EU from both inside and outside Germany are interesting. Inside Germany: "we have these great ideas, but the rest of the EU won't cooperate". Outside Germany: "Germany is basically the big bossman of the EU, along with France. What they say usually goes".

ginko 4y ago

I worry that this would essentially make it easier for airlines to drop passengers in the long run. Right now if your EU flight is cancelled you're entitled to a monetary compensation[1] on top getting your ticket money back. I worry that letting the airlines simply not charge you will allow them to wiggle out of this, or make the process to get it even more Byzantine than it already is. [1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#compensation-cancellation https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...

kashkhan 4y ago
Actually the opposite might happen. Airlines would keep empty seats to sell at a premium at last moment. A business that rejects customers willing to pay top dollar is suboptimal. The startegy today is to make artificial scarcity. If the customer has more power the strategy changes.
- Arnt 4y ago
  Airlines keep seats to sell at the last moment now.
  - karatinversion 4y ago
    I thought they famously did the opposite of this by overbooking flights
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      That's relatively rarer in Europe compared to USA.
      - BiteCode_dev 4y ago
        Don't know for all europe, but air france overbook all the flights Source: my father was working with the CEO.
    - 4y ago

Szpadel 4y ago

what about when payment will be declined on check-in? will they allow flight and then demand payment or will they just don't allow to board? also what if check-in will be done online day before and flight will be canceled? I think that there is a lot of corner cases left uncovered and available for abuse

alkonaut 4y ago
If I were an airline I'd hook up a credit company middle man that pays the airline on reservation and owns the obligation. If the transaction on check-in doesn't work, then the customer owns the credit company money, not the airline who was already paid. This makes it exactly the same as buying the ticket with a credit card.
- nraynaud 4y ago
  it looks like it's called "factoring" in English.
kioleanu 4y ago
Would probably do what all other companies do: still provide the service and then based on the owed amount, they would send 3 warnings and then: 1. If the amount is small, just send them to Inkasso/Schufa, which will hinder their ability to close basically any other contract, from mobile phone to renting an apartment 2. Enforce collection through civil litigation via a lawyer firm 3. Sell the debt to a collection agency I think #1 would happen regardless
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
Presumably they would use a standard credit card hold - where the amount is verified and user has that amount reduced from their maximum limit and then the amount is only settled at check-in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_hold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_hold

coffeeblack 4y ago

The result would be more empty seats in planes when people don’t show up for flights they booked.

kashkhan 4y ago
and that would make the service better, and eventually cheaper, instead of flying 60 year old designs.
- ars 4y ago
  How would that possibly be cheaper? It costs almost exactly the same to fly a full airplane vs an empty one. If airplanes are not full, then prices have to go up, not down.
  - kioleanu 4y ago
    Mind you that the company still receives the money regardless, the only change is that they have to enforce the contract (not the other way around). Here in Germany, you would probably mandate them to charge your bank account directly and that is almost, if not impossible to get out of. A very possible outcome I see here is that you would probably be given a window in which to checkin, which will no longer hold until 2 hours before the flight, so they can sell the seats that were not claimed a second time
    - coffeeblack 4y ago
      Not everywhere is “here in Germany”. In most countries around the world, this would be as nightmare.
  - kashkhan 4y ago
    MIT already has aircraft designs that use 50% less fuel per seat-mile. If more of the plane is empty there is higher incentive to reduce seat mile cost especially if average seat mile revenue is lower.

flipbrad 4y ago

This feels like a complex solution, compared to just making the airlines pay interest on top of the sum they owe to the consumer. That would make repayments quasi-instant

habosa 4y ago

While this seems consumer friendly, I imagine that such a massive negative shift in the cash flow mechanics for airlines would result in them having to raise prices or degrade service.

i5heu 4y ago
if you don't get your fly because TSA takes 5h... how much more can you degrade service?
- scarface74 4y ago
  Which airport are you flying out of where TSA takes five hours? I fly out of ATL - the worlds busiest airport - and it never took more than an hour. This was before I got TSA PreCheck last year.
  - i5heu 4y ago
    The world is not only the USA. There are other nations, some have a very big worker shortage. (not comparable to the USA worker shortage - there are situations that are different from the situation in the USA)
    - scarface74 4y ago
      The parent poster mentioned “TSA”. The TSA is an American government agency. If you are flying in another country, you’re not going in a TSA line.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

wolframhempel 4y ago

I'm wondering if it makes sense to split the difference by allowing airlines to block the amount on the passenger's credit card upon reservation, but only charge them upon check in. This way, the risk of non-payments or problems processing the payment on the check in counter would be minimized.

ginko 4y ago
Plane tickets are often bought months ahead of time. Does it make sense to block an amount of credit for that long?
- mschuster91 4y ago
  It's not even possible. Most card networks let pre-authorizations expire after 7 or 30 days [1], you'd need new laws for that. Additionally, this will be a massive headache for business travelers that use their private credit cards - usually, you'd book a flight and file for reimbursement at the employer, which you then use to pay down the CC bill. Now when you book a larger amount of flights, suddenly you may end up with your CC running into its limit because all the flights are technically still "on hold" and can't be paid off. [1] https://docs.adyen.com/online-payments/adjust-authorisation https://docs.adyen.com/online-payments/adjust-authorisation
Roark66 4y ago
In Europe credit cards are less popular. Most people I know use debit cards with a special "virtual" debit card for Internet purchases. In this situation blocking a certain amount on your card is almost functionally equivalent to taking a payment in advance. The customer has to transfer all the money to their "virtual" card account and the money is blocked. The only time when blocking is better is when it comes to the refund, but that too can be botched by airlines by for example automatically completing the payment at a time of supposed check-in. A much better way would be to pay an advance. Let's say 25%.
- m2fkxy 4y ago
  pre-authorisations are a thing on debit-cards, hotels and gas stations e.g. work with them a lot.

TheMechanist 4y ago

Yes - I am sure this would work out well - like it does with car reservations. https://youtu.be/A-brgkkjnHc https://youtu.be/A-brgkkjnHc

ramboldio 4y ago

*A German state pushes for..

xcambar 4y ago
True but I was happy to read it could be as soon as Sept. 16 on the federal agenda.
- ramboldio 4y ago
  ..to be rejected.

Beldin 4y ago

The idea is to only charge for flights upon checkin. There are a myriad of problems with this, to name two: - an attacker could easily book many flights without checking in. This would cause the airline to fly at a loss. - customers do not control when checkin starts, airlines do. An airline could easily play tricks (checking 1hr before boarding). Wrt the 2nd one: this is easily mitigated by having a mandatory eg 2-week period for checkin... but then we're sort of where we are today, just with more uncertainty if the bookers can actually pay for their flights. So, not a big fan.

Yizahi 4y ago
Also would likely lead to even more overbooking, screwing real travelers more often.
flashfaffe2 4y ago
Agreed with all above. I would add that this won't help customers either as regardless you paid upon check-in or not, this does not address the ultimate point for customers: go to their destination on agreed time.
- Arnt 4y ago
  It helps in two cases: ① The airline closes suddenly, as has happened twice in Germany in the past years (Swissair and Air Berlin both left many Germans with paid tickets and cancelled flights). ② the airline cancels that flight or just that ticket, in which case the airline has to quarrel with its customer(s). It's advantageous for the customers to hold the money during that quarrel.
  - flashfaffe2 4y ago
    As customer who experienced this not far than yesterday, my priority was to flight asap. Not to enter in litigation with the company ( which is incredibly painful). Moreover if you pay your ticket peanut ( Ryanair or easyJet in Europe), I doubt you will consolate yourself with that advancement.
  - 4y ago

zarzavat 4y ago

This is a terrible idea. Many people fly on tickets bought by other people. E.g. business travelers, children flying alone. So for all of those passengers, they will not be able to pay at the airport. Moreover, not everybody is plumbed into the German banking system. If you came to Germany from abroad, is your foreign debit card going to work at the airport? Who knows! It’s unreasonable for passengers to not know if they will be able to pay for the flight, until 3 hours before. What if their bank’s anti-fraud puts a hold on the payment? What do they expect passengers to do, get on the phone to their bank while at the check in counter? Payment is made in advance to give passengers time to resolve payment issues. It is mutually beneficial for passengers and airlines.

capableweb 4y ago
> Moreover, not everybody is plumbed into the German banking system. If you came to Germany from abroad, is your foreign debit card going to work at the airport? Who knows! Is this really a worry? I have two debit cards (one issued in South America and another in Europe, one VISA and one MasterCard) and been traveling all over the world and don't think I've had issues with any of them for the last ~10 year or so. Used to be a bit hit&miss, but not in "modern times".
- zarzavat 4y ago
  It’s absolutely an issue. I was in Turkey and could not get the luggage trolley dispenser to accept my card to give me a trolley. I had to carry my bags across the airport. Annoying, but at least it wasn’t a flight! People come to airports from all over the world. You are going to hit every single payment edge case at an airport. Also people in airports often have limited ability to communicate. Consider: you arrive in Germany on an international flight, go through immigration, then wish to take a connecting local flight to your final destination. When you’re in landside transit you may have no working SIM card or any kind of communications with your bank. That’s why flights are based on confirmed itineraries and not payment at the check in counter.
_pferreir_ 4y ago
You would still be required to provide a credit card, like when you book a rental car. The card will often be charged later, but the payment is "cleared" in advanced.

jhoelzel 4y ago

A couple of weeks ago I was on a flight with ryanair in Berlin. We were about to enter the "plane waiting area", you know where Ryanair herds all the people before they go onto a bus. In front of me was a couple in the beginning of their 20s and none of them had a credit card or even debit card on them, because they had flown this flight a lot of times and they simply brought cash. Well... their bag was slightly oversized and of course Ryainair wanted them to pay for it. So far so good, but Ryanair ONLY accepts credit cards at this point to pay for your extra luggage, so the flight of the couple was just about to bekome much more stressfull (remember this is 15 minutes before actually leaving with the plane and you literally have nowhere to do it in cash). If I had not seen that exchange and traded cash for putting my card down, that couple would have had one sad vacation of two weeks. All in all, airports are not equipped for this influx of "i will pay right now", because simply they are understaffed as is.

stavros 4y ago
If there's a place that doesn't accept cash, it's the place's fault. Cash is what's legal tender, credit cards are the convenience. The airport is absolutely in the wrong here.
- jhoelzel 4y ago
  While true, the Lady at the desk still would not have let them pass. and once the plane is gone...
  - stavros 4y ago
    Yeah, certainly, there isn't much they could do than complain afterwards (probably fruitlessly), sadly.
- ddevault 4y ago
  Businesses should be required by law to accept cash for in-person transactions. Philadelphia was the first US city to ban cashless stores a couple of years ago and it was a great move for convenience and equity.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Kipters 4y ago

I wonder how that would work for EU-261 [0] since in Europe you're not only entitled to refund, but to compensation [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Compensation_Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Compensation_Regulation

d1sxeyes 4y ago
Exactly the same as the current system, except you keep your money until you're checked in. The airline will still have a legal obligation to compensate (in relevant cases).

dna_polymerase 4y ago

> “The booking systems would have to be programmed and supplemented accordingly in order to enable the ‘pay as you check-in’ solution and make it the standard,” Carnier said. Spoken like a true software engineer. From my experience with people booking and taking appointments I can assure you, the airlines would be out of business within a month. If there is no upfront payment people just won't show up. Nobody cares anymore. The average person is too unreliable these days.

notahacker 4y ago
> Spoken like a true software engineer. And not a software engineer who's worked on airline PSS systems :D

quickthrower2 4y ago

Ryanair I imagine will do a workaround. Buy an inflight meal meal for 50EUR (advance payment) and the flight is free.

not_me_ever 4y ago

Another stupid idea by politicians who try to fix the service they don't understand. “The subsequent bureaucracy of cancelling ticket bookings and transferring the money back would be over with.” Good one. I had a flight (DUS 2 MUC) cancelled yesterday (due to strikes). Two clicks in the app, and the money was back in my account 20 minutes later. This law will only do 2 things: a) Increase prices for tickets b) Will create a lot of friction. Just imaging you credit card being stolen/lost a day before the flight. Or you accidentally spending your credit on something else before the money is taken. If you buy a cinema ticket for next weeks premiere, do you want to pay now, and have the ticket safe, or pay when you actually go to the cinema.

disgu 4y ago
> If you buy a cinema ticket for next weeks premiere, do you want to pay now, and have the ticket safe, or pay when you actually go to the cinema. But you can already reserve a seat at the cinema and if your local cinema happens to screw up on a frequent basis then you'd probably get a reservation instead of paying for the ticket beforehand.
mihaaly 4y ago
Probably you never fly budget airlines. Getting back your money is not two click and 20 minutes there. Also you could loose ticket (phone, paper) too, not only credit card. Actually you could drop your phone into the toilet at the airport or on the floor or run out of charge, etc, not like a credit card. Preauthorise/hold amount charged later is something there for long time already. I start to wonder who have no understanding here...
- scarface74 4y ago
  If you have your ID, you go up to the counter and they reprint your ticket.
  - mihaaly 4y ago
    Which cannot be lost, unlike the card. : ))

londons_explore 4y ago

People seem to be focussing on the difficulty of dealing with reservations... But I see this model may be intended to get rid of reservations and maybe schedules entirely. If you see an advert that says "Fly to Berlin for €50.99", then you show up to the airport, see that there is a flight departing in 20 minutes, tap your card to pay the advertised price, and hop on the plane. If the plane is full, you wait for the next one in 2 hours. Airlines by now have good models of passenger flow, by looking at national holidays, sports events, holiday seasons, etc, so they should be able to get most flights full but not overfull. Basically the same pricing model as city busses. And it works fine there.

notahacker 4y ago
> Basically the same pricing model as city busses. And it works fine there. If airlines had the same operational cost and complexity as city buses. And it doesn't work "fine" there: most city buses are empty for much of their route and have people standing in the aisles at popular times. This is tolerable for a bus company where operational costs are minimal and people are legally allowed to stand, but impossible for an airline.

jkellermann 4y ago

Interesting! While the idea definitely offers advantages, I'd be keen to know what changes would have to be done in the Departure Control Systems (DCS). There needs to be connection to Customer Management (CML), Reservations (RES), Ticketing (TKT), Payment (PAY), etc... I was employed with Amadeus Data Systems for more than 10 years, have left during COVID period. This sounds like a big effort. I wonder how Lufthansa pulled this off in 2021...

pembrook 4y ago

So, I might be wrong, but I don’t think there’s a single airline on earth that is consistently minting high profits—the most profitable airline (delta) earns 10% margins…in a good year. Do we really need to make airline businesses even harder to run? If passengers really saw value in the PAYF model, any airline with growth ambitions (eg. Ryanair) could take massive market share by implementing. The free market already solves this. The fact that it’s uncommon tells me non-business travelers don’t see much value in it.

bzxcvbn 4y ago
Earth is burning. Yes, we need to make airlines' lives more difficult.

fxtentacle 4y ago

Great idea! This is basically already how online shopping with SEPA works in Germany. You place an order, type in billing data, they do a pre-authorization, and you get an instant "order confirmation". But the money is debited from your bank account only AFTER the vendor has sent out your parcel containing the goods. Plus, Lufthansa, the main airline for business travel, has been offering exactly this PAYF model for more than a year now. So they are suggesting to enshrine in law what some companies already negotiated privately.

gpjanik 4y ago

Pay to fly would create an incentive for airlines to overbook in each flight in order to ensure high utilisation in case of a no-show. Germany outperforms itself in idiotic ideas yet another time.

ketzu 4y ago
Airlines already do that.

ghaff 4y ago

This is essentially how rental cars generally work in the US. Both planes and hotels essentially almost always require credit cards. Hotels seem to have mostly liberalized cancelation policies--which had been starting to require more notice. And flights seem to be less likely to have fairly high e.g. $200 fees associated with changes.

balderdash 4y ago

I feel like it’s only about 15% of the time that a flight is canceled in advance of the 24hr check in window, most of the time it’s canceled after it’s scheduled departure time, so don’t really see any benefit here, if they only charged me once I arrived at my destination, that’s another story…

oaiey 4y ago

I think the only way is a reliable third party (like the booking company) where the customer still owns the money but it is temporal locked for the airline till like flight + 1h or so. Like the airline has a guarantee that the money shows up at the moment where it is needed and in doubt we could also have a system where the no-show fee can be "sub-locked". The consumer on the other hand, never waives the money over until he is needed to (by confirming to the no-show or actually flying). Similar systems exists for example for Visa guarantees. Interestingly, considering other success rates the airline should do they same for their punishment if they cancel ;)

codethief 4y ago

Did anyone actually read the article? This is not about literally paying at the check-in, nor is it about not having to pay if you do not check in. It's merely about delaying the payment transaction until check-in/departure time, so that in case the flight gets canceled beforehand, the customer does not have to request a refunding (which, as we all know, can be very cumbersome) but simply won't pay in the first place.

goda90 4y ago
As mentioned in other threads, I'd say this is still problematic because refunding isn't always the preferred outcome. Re-booking would be better in lots of scenarios(like you have to be someplace, even if a day late, or you already paid for accommodations that won't let you cancel), but if you hadn't even been charged, would the airline have any obligations to re-book you to your destination at the same price?
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  I'd say low cost flights/seat would get much more hazardous business for travelers, not knowing till last minute if airline cancels or not, with chances barely 50:50. I too would like to see an airline burn (more like pay up properly & help fixing their/airport shit) but we have to be careful and set incentives so they are not easily gamed on one side, and won't bankrupt airlines ie due to some heavy storms on the other.

teeray 4y ago

> where payment for plane tickets is processed upon check-in. Well, then they’d check you in and cancel the flight. The payment needs to be processed on takeoff for incentives to be correct.

rs999gti 4y ago

> Going it alone in Germany Germany is the California of Europe

cratermoon 4y ago

Coincidentally, I'm finishing my second week as a consultant on a check-in modernization project for an airline. Most airlines are still using systems from 20+ years ago, and while they mostly work, they are EOL from the vendor. Anyway, this change would throw a wrench in this project's plans, but at least they have something in progress that can track it. For airlines that haven't yet started or even planning to replace the old system, they are going to have to scramble. Airlines already collect money when you check in in many cases: seat/class upgrades (both pushed by the airlines check-in process to up revenue) and extra bags, and a few other things. Moving the payment collection for the ticket itself to time-of-reservation to time-of-check-in would take work, but probably not totally upend the modernization plan.

lxgr 4y ago

Important context: Credit cards are still much less common in Germany, and banks are not exactly very consumer-friendly when it comes to processing chargebacks. Anyone paying a flight ticket with a non-disputable payment method (or one where the reversal period times out after 8 weeks, such as SEPA direct debit) is pretty much at the mercy of the airline voluntarily (or through legal action) returning the money. I've been waiting for 10 months for a similar reimbursement now... When the country's second-largest airline went bankrupt in 2017, many banks refused to file chargebacks due to legal uncertainty around whether doing so might be considered unlawful interference with the bankruptcy proceedings. (The bankruptcy manager fueled these by actually sending out invoices supporting that claim.) In the context of credit/most debit card paid tickets, this is largely a non-issue, since cancelled flights (in addition to merchant bankruptcy) are usually explicitly covered under the "service not provided" chargeback provisions of the schemes.

tristor 4y ago

Sounds like a boon for airlines as they owe you nothing and have established no contractual obligation since they haven’t yet collected payment (consideration). Airlines are already regulated to reimburse passengers above and beyond for cancellations in Europe, this seems like a regulatory capture attempt to get out of the consequences of failing infrastructure.

dr_faustus 4y ago

It‘s a stupid idea with all kinds of problems. What if, for some reason, your bank account is empty or your CC is over the limit at the time of departure. The transaction might fail and your flight will be canceled hours before departure. You won’t be able to book some other flight on such short notice, etc.pp.. There is a much easier fix. You give the airlines 2 weeks to refund the money. The have to refund it without any forms etc. because the damn well know who booked and paid a flight they canceled. Every day the overrun the 2 weeks, the refund is automatically increased by 5 percent. I have no doubt, 99% of refunds will be paid out after two weeks.

kurupt213 4y ago

But how would they charge absurd rebooking fees?