6 ms·

The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? Ukraine had tradition

by caycep 4y ago

The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? Ukraine had traditional industries but it seems like the IT/knowledge worker base they built up over the past 5-10 years seems to be softening some of the economic blows of the war for them, but I can't imaging IT is the answer to every country...

outworlder 4y ago
> The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? They are looking to expand their maritime territory. They might have a credible claim to it.
rmbyrro 4y ago
Look at Singapore, for example. Its situation was orders of magnitude worse than Portugal decades ago. Now they are probably twice as better. The key is: stop complaining about "the rich is this, the rich is that" and start thinking about how to be competitive in the 21st century. There are many opportunities, but are Portuguese citizens interested in taking the effort and sacrifice to explore them? The answer to this question is the real explanation for the hard time they're going through, not "rich-blaming".
- notch656a 4y ago
  Singapore's public housing is propped up by the fact that they have a huge proportion of their population that are totally ineligible for it, but pay the taxes to support it. I think something like only 60% of Singapore has the citizenship or correct criteria of permanent residency to obtain public housing. If the US can put 40% of its working populace into some lower-rights having class, like strip their citizenship, we would have a comparable public housing tax base.
  - rmbyrro 4y ago
    I'm not talking about how real estate works there, but how they became a sophisticated and highly competitive economy in a few decades.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      May want to go back and delete your comments about real estate then. Honestly without exploiting foreigners to subsidize their housing, these tag line here would probably just as likely be "Singaporeans Can No Longer Afford to Live in Singapore." If you live in an advanced urban economy, with relatively open borders and free market real estate, you have to get with the program or get forced out. You can argue that's a good thing, or a bad thing. ------------- >Why is this exploitation? The country is offering a lot of positive things to foreigner Pretty unsophisticated logic here. The idea that something good was obtained, therefore a policy can't be exploitive, is on face absolutely an unfounded and absurd claim.
      - rmbyrro 4y ago
        Are foreigners kept there against their will? I bet they're happy to live there, despite the housing costs. Why is this exploitation? The country is offering a lot of positive things to foreigners. I'd love to have a Singaporean passport and be able to live there if I could afford. May want to keep your comment deletion considerations to yourself.
        fn-mote 4y ago
        The situation in Singapore is different. The foreigners are not high-income people who chose to live there. Only about 28% are skilled labor. The foreigners _may_ be happy to live there but I wouldn't make that assumption without checking. Just because it's better than their alternative doesn't mean it's good, or even acceptable. Source: > [immigrants population is] 1.23 million, out of which about 351 thousand were classified as skilled labor. Most of the foreign workforce [...is employed...] in construction and the service industry, or as domestic help. -- https://www.statista.com/statistics/698035/singapore-number-of-immigrants/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/698035/singapore-number-...
  - speakfreely 4y ago
    > If the US can put 40% of its working populace into some lower-rights having class, like strip their citizenship, we would have a comparable public housing tax base. The US is already working on this, albeit unintentionally. Undocumented immigrants were at 3.3% of the population in 2016 and the numbers have absolutely exploded since the beginning of the Biden administration, with 2 million apprehensions so far for in 2022 [0]. The cumulative effect of this over just a single term of the Biden administration will completely reshape the demographics of most of the border states (and most major cities of the country), as the majority of immigrants are arriving with very little means, extremely limited ability to speak English, and will be mostly restricted from accessing the US financial system without legal residence status, hobbling them financially and forcing them into informal work arrangements. [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/illegal-immigration-arrests-hit-record-reasons-for-border-crossings-changing-11660599304 https://www.wsj.com/articles/illegal-immigration-arrests-hit...
    - lovich 4y ago
      A record number of arrests can mean there is a record number of immigrants but does not guarantee that is the cause. Increased enforcement of the border would also lead to higher arrests and subsequently reduce the inflow of immigration
      - speakfreely 4y ago
        The current administration has gone back and forth on this. Initially the policy was to be as "Un-Trumpy" as possible on border policy, but that had the predictable effect of encouraging more illegal immigration simply by changing the narrative in the source countries. Now they've quietly restarted a fair amount of border wall construction but their options for solving it logistically are very limited, as the only way to address the massive influx is to rapidly scale the personnel on the border which can't be done overnight (unless the National Guard is used, which would be completely rejected by the liberal base). If you're interested in unfiltered perspectives, I would encourage you to focus on articles that specifically quote active Border Patrol agents who are working on the border. It's quite different than anything you hear from Washington DC.
motohagiography 4y ago
I think maintaining distinctiveness as a country is the best possible economic security, instead of turning it into an airport mall of fast food chains and crappy condos. France has maintained this somewhat, but not without a lot of struggle. Globalized chains create a radical monopoly in the cities they are in because they reduce the amount of risk/reward for local entrepreneurs, and require high amounts of capital to start. It's why downtown SF is such a cultural desert of basic and Times Square is just a theme park to itself. The policies that encourage globalized businesses create a homogenization that makes the desirable diversity that emerges organically impossible. Portugal could impose a foreign buyers tax, use it's egalitarian/socialistic political culture to incentivise some small-n natalism, and leverage the unbelievable cultural resources it has as somewhere that is a respite from the blob of tourists that it has allowed to imbalance its economy. It's not so much IT that would change the economy, but honestly - math. It's the only real social advantage that a country can organize to leverage, and the next country that triples down on its math education investment is going to be the next power base. Given what I've seen there that the article captures perfectly, it's probably their only hope.
andrepd 4y ago
Unfortunately education in Portugal is one of the worst in Europe. It would need a massive investment with a visionary direction to start to see results 15 years later. 4-year terms do not lend themselves well to long-term national projects like that. Ironically, excellent education might be one of the most positive legacies the Communist regimes left to Eastern European countries, and part of why countries like Estonia or Poland will be better poised in the near future.
- park777 4y ago
  Incorrect. Education in Portugal was one of the worst in Europe. Portugal is the only country in the OECD that has consistently risen in PISA scores since their inception in 2000. Portugal was bottom of the table in 2000, and now it's at middle. Not the best, but not the worst either. Source: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-59031-4_8 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-59031-4_...
zozbot234 4y ago
It's not just Ukraine. Central and Eastern Europe in general has seen plenty of sustained growth. You just need the right policy attitude for it, which has historically been quite problematic in places like Portugal (see "The incredible shrinking Portuguese firm" for one especially clear example).
pdpi 4y ago
Portuguese IT is pretty good in general, and that could easily have been part of the solution. The problem is that there was a large exodus of talent in the early 2010s (including yours truly), and that has caused some serious brain drain.
- iostream25 4y ago
  I remember Passos Coelho suggesting that the young will need to emigrate for work, circa the time of the crisis/austerity.
  - pdpi 4y ago
    Yup. So I did.
- brabel 4y ago
  The company I work for has 3 devs in Portugal, working remotely... good people, very skilled, and it's much more affordable to pay them well compared to their local market than trying to hire locally, even if locally (more expensive European country), salaries are still a far cry from those of the USA, let alone Silicon Valley. With remote becoming widespread, it's hard to believe Silicon Valley is still willing to pay so much more money for devs than hire remote workers in Portugal and numerous other countries with high education and infrastructure, but much, much lower salaries.
  - pkaye 4y ago
    > With remote becoming widespread, it's hard to believe Silicon Valley is still willing to pay so much more money for devs than hire remote workers in Portugal and numerous other countries with high education and infrastructure, but much, much lower salaries. In the US there are 50 states to choose from for remote workers. And then outside that is the rest of North/South America all within a narrow time zone band.
dr_dshiv 4y ago
Good drug policy, car-less urbanity, and a good tech scene. With California weather and 1/5 the cost? Sounds great. When can I move?
asdff 4y ago
They could start building housing
prmoustache 4y ago
I read somewhere that there was a raise in bicycle factories in Portugal. Some euro companies are attractee by the idea of being able to put a made/assembled in europe label while keeping labour cost low, avoid asian supply issues and portugal provides that.

by caycep 4y ago

outworlder 4y ago

> The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? They are looking to expand their maritime territory. They might have a credible claim to it.

rmbyrro 4y ago

Look at Singapore, for example. Its situation was orders of magnitude worse than Portugal decades ago. Now they are probably twice as better. The key is: stop complaining about "the rich is this, the rich is that" and start thinking about how to be competitive in the 21st century. There are many opportunities, but are Portuguese citizens interested in taking the effort and sacrifice to explore them? The answer to this question is the real explanation for the hard time they're going through, not "rich-blaming".

notch656a 4y ago
Singapore's public housing is propped up by the fact that they have a huge proportion of their population that are totally ineligible for it, but pay the taxes to support it. I think something like only 60% of Singapore has the citizenship or correct criteria of permanent residency to obtain public housing. If the US can put 40% of its working populace into some lower-rights having class, like strip their citizenship, we would have a comparable public housing tax base.
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  I'm not talking about how real estate works there, but how they became a sophisticated and highly competitive economy in a few decades.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    May want to go back and delete your comments about real estate then. Honestly without exploiting foreigners to subsidize their housing, these tag line here would probably just as likely be "Singaporeans Can No Longer Afford to Live in Singapore." If you live in an advanced urban economy, with relatively open borders and free market real estate, you have to get with the program or get forced out. You can argue that's a good thing, or a bad thing. ------------- >Why is this exploitation? The country is offering a lot of positive things to foreigner Pretty unsophisticated logic here. The idea that something good was obtained, therefore a policy can't be exploitive, is on face absolutely an unfounded and absurd claim.
    - rmbyrro 4y ago
      Are foreigners kept there against their will? I bet they're happy to live there, despite the housing costs. Why is this exploitation? The country is offering a lot of positive things to foreigners. I'd love to have a Singaporean passport and be able to live there if I could afford. May want to keep your comment deletion considerations to yourself.
      - fn-mote 4y ago
        The situation in Singapore is different. The foreigners are not high-income people who chose to live there. Only about 28% are skilled labor. The foreigners _may_ be happy to live there but I wouldn't make that assumption without checking. Just because it's better than their alternative doesn't mean it's good, or even acceptable. Source: > [immigrants population is] 1.23 million, out of which about 351 thousand were classified as skilled labor. Most of the foreign workforce [...is employed...] in construction and the service industry, or as domestic help. -- https://www.statista.com/statistics/698035/singapore-number-of-immigrants/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/698035/singapore-number-...
- speakfreely 4y ago
  > If the US can put 40% of its working populace into some lower-rights having class, like strip their citizenship, we would have a comparable public housing tax base. The US is already working on this, albeit unintentionally. Undocumented immigrants were at 3.3% of the population in 2016 and the numbers have absolutely exploded since the beginning of the Biden administration, with 2 million apprehensions so far for in 2022 [0]. The cumulative effect of this over just a single term of the Biden administration will completely reshape the demographics of most of the border states (and most major cities of the country), as the majority of immigrants are arriving with very little means, extremely limited ability to speak English, and will be mostly restricted from accessing the US financial system without legal residence status, hobbling them financially and forcing them into informal work arrangements. [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/illegal-immigration-arrests-hit-record-reasons-for-border-crossings-changing-11660599304 https://www.wsj.com/articles/illegal-immigration-arrests-hit...
  - lovich 4y ago
    A record number of arrests can mean there is a record number of immigrants but does not guarantee that is the cause. Increased enforcement of the border would also lead to higher arrests and subsequently reduce the inflow of immigration
    - speakfreely 4y ago
      The current administration has gone back and forth on this. Initially the policy was to be as "Un-Trumpy" as possible on border policy, but that had the predictable effect of encouraging more illegal immigration simply by changing the narrative in the source countries. Now they've quietly restarted a fair amount of border wall construction but their options for solving it logistically are very limited, as the only way to address the massive influx is to rapidly scale the personnel on the border which can't be done overnight (unless the National Guard is used, which would be completely rejected by the liberal base). If you're interested in unfiltered perspectives, I would encourage you to focus on articles that specifically quote active Border Patrol agents who are working on the border. It's quite different than anything you hear from Washington DC.

motohagiography 4y ago

I think maintaining distinctiveness as a country is the best possible economic security, instead of turning it into an airport mall of fast food chains and crappy condos. France has maintained this somewhat, but not without a lot of struggle. Globalized chains create a radical monopoly in the cities they are in because they reduce the amount of risk/reward for local entrepreneurs, and require high amounts of capital to start. It's why downtown SF is such a cultural desert of basic and Times Square is just a theme park to itself. The policies that encourage globalized businesses create a homogenization that makes the desirable diversity that emerges organically impossible. Portugal could impose a foreign buyers tax, use it's egalitarian/socialistic political culture to incentivise some small-n natalism, and leverage the unbelievable cultural resources it has as somewhere that is a respite from the blob of tourists that it has allowed to imbalance its economy. It's not so much IT that would change the economy, but honestly - math. It's the only real social advantage that a country can organize to leverage, and the next country that triples down on its math education investment is going to be the next power base. Given what I've seen there that the article captures perfectly, it's probably their only hope.

andrepd 4y ago

Unfortunately education in Portugal is one of the worst in Europe. It would need a massive investment with a visionary direction to start to see results 15 years later. 4-year terms do not lend themselves well to long-term national projects like that. Ironically, excellent education might be one of the most positive legacies the Communist regimes left to Eastern European countries, and part of why countries like Estonia or Poland will be better poised in the near future.

park777 4y ago
Incorrect. Education in Portugal was one of the worst in Europe. Portugal is the only country in the OECD that has consistently risen in PISA scores since their inception in 2000. Portugal was bottom of the table in 2000, and now it's at middle. Not the best, but not the worst either. Source: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-59031-4_8 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-59031-4_...

zozbot234 4y ago

It's not just Ukraine. Central and Eastern Europe in general has seen plenty of sustained growth. You just need the right policy attitude for it, which has historically been quite problematic in places like Portugal (see "The incredible shrinking Portuguese firm" for one especially clear example).

pdpi 4y ago

Portuguese IT is pretty good in general, and that could easily have been part of the solution. The problem is that there was a large exodus of talent in the early 2010s (including yours truly), and that has caused some serious brain drain.

iostream25 4y ago
I remember Passos Coelho suggesting that the young will need to emigrate for work, circa the time of the crisis/austerity.
- pdpi 4y ago
  Yup. So I did.
brabel 4y ago
The company I work for has 3 devs in Portugal, working remotely... good people, very skilled, and it's much more affordable to pay them well compared to their local market than trying to hire locally, even if locally (more expensive European country), salaries are still a far cry from those of the USA, let alone Silicon Valley. With remote becoming widespread, it's hard to believe Silicon Valley is still willing to pay so much more money for devs than hire remote workers in Portugal and numerous other countries with high education and infrastructure, but much, much lower salaries.
- pkaye 4y ago
  > With remote becoming widespread, it's hard to believe Silicon Valley is still willing to pay so much more money for devs than hire remote workers in Portugal and numerous other countries with high education and infrastructure, but much, much lower salaries. In the US there are 50 states to choose from for remote workers. And then outside that is the rest of North/South America all within a narrow time zone band.

dr_dshiv 4y ago

Good drug policy, car-less urbanity, and a good tech scene. With California weather and 1/5 the cost? Sounds great. When can I move?

asdff 4y ago

They could start building housing

prmoustache 4y ago

I read somewhere that there was a raise in bicycle factories in Portugal. Some euro companies are attractee by the idea of being able to put a made/assembled in europe label while keeping labour cost low, avoid asian supply issues and portugal provides that.