16 ms·

California Declares Grid Emergency

90 points by hubraumhugo 4y ago

Group_B 4y ago
This is what happens when millions of people decide to live in a desert
- LtWorf 4y ago
  And I guess most homes are cheaply built and with insufficient insulation.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    But it doesn't get cold... why do you need insulation? /s (Yes, I realize that northern California can be snow-bound in the higher elevations) Seriously though, I watch a few builders on YouTube, and the amount of insulation they put on spec homes is the minimal amount they can get away with. A shame, considering how you can get a home well enough insulated that you could heat it in a Canadian winter with a hair dryer.
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      Temperatures in Silicon Valley can easily get into the low 50s. That gets pretty uncomfortable inside. My uninsulated 1930s house in Ohio holds heat better than my friend's Palo Alto apartment.
      - boldlybold 4y ago
        Low 30s in Palo Alto and Menlo Park where I live. Cold enough to have frost on windshields or grass early in the morning. Biggest change for California weather was the delta between day and night!
    - Gravityloss 4y ago
      Do people calculate total cost of living, including heating and cooling electricity? Or AC size? There's some SAAS opportunity there...
      - falcolas 4y ago
        Sadly, right now people are happy to have the roof, regardless of the ongoing cost. And landlords... they'll just pass those costs on to the renters.
        Gravityloss 4y ago
        But surely, if you're thinking of buying house A or B, the actual monthly costs should be a very big part of the decision, and affect the price you can pay for each house (size of mortgage payment). Say, after salary, taxes, food you have 1000 euros per month that you can spend. There are two houses, where in one, you can spend 500 on mortgage and 500 on energy bills, and in the other, you can spend 700 on mortgage and 300 on energy bills. But if you just buy the house that has 500 on mortgage because "it's cheaper", it's not actually cheaper in total. This should also interest banks that give people mortgages. Also, if you rent that house out, if the energy cost is directly part of the rent, the house with the higher energy cost has a higher rent, hence it's less attractive. Again, market forces. So in reality, you can get more profit out of the house that has the lower energy cost, because in reality, the cost is not be passed directly to the renters.
- tomatotomato37 4y ago
  Arizona seems to be doing fine
  - erellsworth 4y ago
    For now... https://www.kvoa.com/community/drought-threatens-power-supply-in-the-southwest/article_48162eec-1ea6-11ed-b0ad-cb05f76edf8f.html https://www.kvoa.com/community/drought-threatens-power-suppl...
  - Entinel 4y ago
    Arizona's population is around 7 million. California's population is around 40 million.
- bombcar 4y ago
  This is what happens when you continue to build new demand but don't build new capacity to match: https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/califo...
  - epistasis 4y ago
    Well when you balance the new demand with energy efficiency for a long time... The real problem is that the demand models did not account for a worsening climate at the pace that it is encountering record hot days. Though for that matter, almost nobody accounted for that, so it's hard to blame the grid planners too much.
    - galangalalgol 4y ago
      If this is driven by air conditioning (which I would have assumed) why are they asking people not to charge EVs? Surely most people charge at night?
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Because that is (possibly) flexible demand that might have the ability to be shifted to low demand periods to prioritize cooling (or in general, higher priority loads). https://www.energy.gov/oe/activities/technology-development/grid-modernization-and-smart-grid/demand-response https://www.energy.gov/oe/activities/technology-development/... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management
      - bombcar 4y ago
        When you're at the edge you can ask for anything - and electric cars is an easy one to describe. You could also ask people to reduce electric range cooking, electric dryer usage, etc, but that can be harder to describe and offer more inconvenience. Also, most people with an electric car probably have another mode of transportation they can switch to.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  California is now losing population so maybe the situation will rectify itself.
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  Large deserts with plenty of open space would be perfect for solar power to be honest.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Depends on the dust and sand. The upkeep of solar facilities in deserts can cost more (compared to rooftop/agricultural solar installations) due to maintenance requirements.
- jiggyjace 4y ago
  It takes less energy to cool down an interior space by one degree than heat it by one degree. You don't see active water crises in Arizona or California like you have in Jackson, Mississippi.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    When you use heat pumps, you can get roughly equal efficiency. They're pretty impressive tools.
timcavel 4y ago
newaccount2021 4y ago
agentultra 4y ago
And they want to close down their remaining nuclear plants? Wow. I guess with desertification it would be a stretch to find an ample source of cooling water. Does this mean they're planning their base loads on natural gas then? Or are they holding out for SMEs that don't need large volumes of water?
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  The nuclear plant was saved this morning: https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1119778975/california-lawmakers-extend-the-life-of-the-states-last-nuclear-power-plant https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1119778975/california-lawmake...
- sampo 4y ago
  In today's news: "California lawmakers extend the life of the state's last nuclear power plant" https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1119778975/california-lawmakers-extend-the-life-of-the-states-last-nuclear-power-plant https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1119778975/california-lawmake...
- bombcar 4y ago
  The article itself says Newsom is trying to extend Diablo Canyon by five years. But too many plants have gone offline and not been replaced; generating capacity appears to be flat for ten+ years or more.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  The Palo Verde nuclear plant is the largest in the US and isn't near a body of water. According to Wikipedia, "The power plant evaporates the water from the treated sewage from several nearby cities and towns to provide the cooling of the steam that it produces." Wonder if that could work for the drier parts of California.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  Their nuclear plant is on the ocean coast. The amount of water in oceans is only expected to increase.
- survirtual 4y ago
ParksNet 4y ago
ProTip: Run your AC hard overnight, when temperatures are in the low 70s, and use your house as a thermal battery (assuming its reasonably insulated).
- anamexis 4y ago
  Seems like it would be a lot more efficient to just blow in a bunch of outside air when its cool outside.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Depends on if temperatures drop below 70 outside. If you're near the coast, open all windows at night when temps are low, and let the house get as cold as possible during the night. In the morning, close all windows and cover them with blinds, and turn the A/C off during the hottest part of the day. Don't open the fridge or freezer if possible, and keep lights off.
  - MrDunham 4y ago
    Both, really. Normalize first with the ambient temperature and then run the AC to sub ambient down towards the 60s. AC efficiency increases as temperature decreases. You would have to deal with the fact that your house is now frigidly cold. Also, I can’t remember the last house I lived in California that had decent insulation - so that’s a major assumption.
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  How well insulated are California houses built before, say, 1990? I live up north now where insulation is a given, but when I lived in Louisiana, the houses were made from sticks. High ceilings, but no insulation anywhere.
  - api 4y ago
    People think you only need insulation in cold climates when in reality AC is often more expensive and energy intensive than heating.
adamsmith143 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- epistasis 4y ago
  If people die, and there were super easy checks to kee power from tripping off that had been reported on and ignored, sure, I'll be mad as hell. I'm still incredibly mad that PG&E's grid mismanagement has caused massive fires and killed so many people. Still mad as hell about that gas line explosion that killed people and took out homes. So unless you have a particular fix or action to propose that comes from partisan politics, there's not much point into turning this into a partisan politics battle.
  - adamsmith143 4y ago
    Well it certainly wasn't conservatives cheering and meme'ing the suffering of millions of Texans
    - falcolas 4y ago
      It wasn't liberals either. We were largely sad and provided support where we could to the citizens. We were also angry at the senators and other Texas officials who brought that situation about. I (I'll even go so far to say that a vast majority of liberal leaning folks) don't rejoice in other's misery.
      - abduhl 4y ago
        The common scene I see is that the majority of <insert ideologically identifying term> don’t rejoice in other’s misery but rather do rejoice in pointing out how much those others deserve it.
        falcolas 4y ago
jasonlotito 4y ago
A lot of people will see this as a pure failure, but this is the system at work. Yes, there are improvements that can be made, but my understanding from reading this is they are handling it. This is part of the process, and it's the exception. This is part of the capacity planning, basically. I guess I would equate it to getting DDoS'ed. You might declare an "emergency" but put into practice plans you had for when this happened. It's the exception, not the rule. It's an "emergency" but it's planned for. Would it be great if this didn't happen? Sure. But that there clearly are plans in place when it happens is a good sign. It's much better than if nothing was done. You'd still have the emergency, but with no clear plan of action.
- gibsonf1 4y ago
  A well run state would just not have this problem. It's all caused by bad policy. I would prefer some learning from mistakes and fixing bad policy over being forced to leave the State.
- mattboardman 4y ago
  From an outsider's perspective this appears to be a systemic failure. Maybe because California is a political whipping post, but they seem to be in the news a lot with power disruptions. Is this just a perception and not reality? I live in Nebraska with high summer temperatures and don't remember there being an emergency declared.
  - pm90 4y ago
    The population of the entire state of Nevraska is less that 2 million. The population of a single city in CA (LA) is twice that. Not an apples to apples comparison.
    - mattboardman 4y ago
      Could you elaborate on the differences? Nebraska might only have 2 million people to power but that also means they only have 2 million people's worth of income taxes to manage the infrastructure. Does power infrastructure and generation become exponentially harder to scale or is it linear? (I'm genuinely curious)
ssizn 4y ago
Ah, those damn Enron traders!!!
vbezhenar 4y ago
I don’t remember blackouts in my country since 90s. It seems that parts of US could be considered worst that third-world country with some aspects. From my old experience I could suggest buying diesel generator and have enough supply of diesel fuel to run it for a few days at least. Also few tonnes of coal, but that’s for cold climate.
- cpach 4y ago
  Will be interesting to see if we in the Nordics/EU will get blackouts the coming winter. The outlook is not great.
  - FerretFred 4y ago
    Ditto in the UK. Successive governments have run down infrastructure and power generation alike, with no thought as to how the UK is going to get enough power in the near future. The outgoing Idiot In Charge has just signed off on a new nuclear power plant but it'll take 10 years to build. In the meantime we're wondering if we could reopen some coal mines, and restart some of the coal-fired power plants that have been mothballed.
- mtoner23 4y ago
  Worse than third world grid?? Come on
  - dmix 4y ago
    His country didnt have blackouts in the 90s, California does. The math checks out.
  - QuarterReptile 4y ago
    > with some aspects He's clearly laid out the aspects he's talking about, too. If availability of electricity is something you prioritize, then the failure in that regard is significant. If you don't prioritize that, then recognize that you're probably in the minority.
  - hedora 4y ago
stuckinhell 4y ago
California is a great example of the road to hell is paved with good intentions. At some point, we are going to realize "green" non nuclear energy doesn't work. We need nuclear. Good intentions doesn't make a good government. California politicians seem to have a lot of good intentions on homelessness, jail reform, education, healthcare, but the reality is just an awful hell zone.
- quest88 4y ago
  How will nuclear solve the problem? Does it provide enough energy?
  - thepasswordis 4y ago
    Yes
  - QuarterReptile 4y ago
    It does if you build it. Edit: a typo
  - WaitWaitWha 4y ago
    Absolutely; the following countries have most of their electricity made by nuke plants[0]: France 69.0% Ukraine 55.0% Slovakia 52.3% Belgium 50.8% Hungary 46.8% [0] International atomic energy agency; US Energy Information Administration Updated: August 2022
    - berkut 4y ago
      It can solve the problem: that doesn't mean there aren't other potential issues that need to be handled correctly. Take France for instance - it's currently becoming a net importer of electricity due to many (~60%) of its Nuclear reactors being offline for maintenance.
  - swarnie 4y ago
    Far better than dinosaur juice imo.
falcolas 4y ago
I looked this up yesterday, and figure it would be interesting to folks who are perusing these threads. Power generation capacity with breakdowns by type and import for the state of California. https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/califo... The most fascinating point I saw is that the total power generation capacity effectively hasn't changed since 2001.
- dboreham 4y ago
  Interesting: geothermal is an order of magnitude more than I would have guessed.
- blitzar 4y ago
  I suspect this is a theme in the western world globally. Energy demand over that time is down in the developed world - the UK for example peaked in 2005 at ~400 terrawatt-hours to ~330 terrawatt-hours in 2021 (with >10% increase in population). https://www.statista.com/statistics/323381/total-demand-for-electricity-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/323381/total-demand-for-... Edit: I dont expect this trend will remain, cars switching from liquid fuel to electricity and heating from gas to electricity is going to accelerate at some point and cancel the efficiency savings.
chasd00 4y ago
Everyone likes to point and laugh when a state has grid problems. I live in Texas and so have been in the receiving end a lot. The article is mostly about the prep work and conservation going on now to deal with the heat wave expected over the coming week. It all seems reasonable to me, exceptional circumstances need exceptional prep work and action. In the larger scheme I think city planners are going to have to start accounting for weather events outside of the typical boundaries as more and more effects of climate change take hold. I’m not going to point and laugh at CA, I hope you guys make it through with minimal interruptions.
- ajvs 4y ago
  It's okay to point and laugh here, because one week they're banning non-electric vehicles and the next they're saying people shouldn't charge their electric vehicles due to insufficient electricity.
  - acidburnNSA 4y ago
    At least they voted to keep their nuclear plant on for another 5 years.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jlmorton 4y ago
    There's nothing contradictory there. The fact that EV charging can be easily time-shifted is an enormous benefit. There are few things as beneficial to the grid as EVs will be.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      > EV charging can be easily time-shifted If, and only if, you live in a place that provides you with the ability to overnight charge. So that probably excludes a vast majority of Californians who live in apartments or condos. Charging cables are also pretty popular with thieves, since they contain a lot of copper and provide no inherent theft prevention, another minus for apartment/condo dwellers.
edmcnulty101 4y ago
Didn't California just ban non-electrical vehicles? If they don't have the grid capacity to support what exists now with a small spike...how will they support a hundred million EVs? EDIT: For everyone saying there's still 13 years until that happens. CA hasn't increased it's energy capacity since 2001. People think energy prices are bad now try 13 years with 100 million EV's. And by disallowing any source of cheap non-green Energy...democratic policies will essentially favor the rich who will be the only one's who can afford a 50,000 solar array to power a 30,000 EV. The non-rich will be on a bus with the homeless crazy people. Sources and clear evidence directly from CA dept. of energy. https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/califo... Found this out from this poster: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32676518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32676518
- stragies 4y ago
  They ban is effective starting only 2035, I thought. 13 more years to go before the deadline.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    And it's only the sale of new gas cars. If your goal is to drive an ICE car for as long as humanly possible you could easily make it 30 years from today only buying new.
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >Didn't Californian just ban non-electrical vehicles? Wasn't there a recent article on this very site, titled along the lines of "Yes, the US electric grid can handle EVs"?
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  They banned the sale of non-electric vehicles starting in 2035. Looking at automakers roadmaps, it'll be hard to find new ones by then, so this wasn't really a huge deal.
- 4y ago
thepasswordis 4y ago
California is such a depressing thing. You have some of the most beautiful land in earth (the California coast is uniquely beautiful imo) you had some of the smartest people in earth in the highest concentration, some of the best weather in earth, the best companies, the best most innovative industries. Everything. And they just…squandered it. In like 15 years. At some point does California look in the mirror and wonder if just maybe it wasnt those darn republicans after all? What’s infuriating is watching Californian refugees flee the disaster that their policies created and then try to implement them those same policies in their new host states. I’m already seeing this happen in my state.
- agent281 4y ago
  Why do you say the last 15 years? We had the Enron blackouts 20 years ago that were so bad they effectively forced the recall of the governor. The grid has had its issues for a while.
  - thepasswordis 4y ago
    The power grid is not Californias only current humanitarian disaster.
- edmcnulty101 4y ago
  It's interesting to watch it decline. And to see the lessons learned.
- umeshunni 4y ago
  Don't worry. They're still blaming the Reagan governorship for all their problems.
  - hollywood_court 4y ago
    I’m not sure how the Reagan governorship is effecting California to this day, but I know that the US still hasn’t recovered from his presidency.
kraig911 4y ago
Texan here. Sorry for my brothers and sisters in California. It seems that people like to talk politics about crap like this - who knew? That said, this seems to very much to be just the new norm when we want to live comfortably in an environment we've made uncomfortable. It's going to take effort, money and above all love for your fellow man. And for some reason in this country we are severely lacking in that last department.
- pm90 4y ago
  > And for some reason in this country we are severely lacking in that last department. I think its very clear. There are actors that feeding into the hate because that fuels views/engagement to their platforms and keeps them in power.
WaitWaitWha 4y ago
How will this work out with the ban on gasoline car sales? Are there plans & budget to upgrade the infrastructure? Are there plans & budget to replace/update/install/negotiate new source of electric power? (asking as I am not Californian.)
- EricE 4y ago
  Those are tough questions someone else will surely answer some time in the future. In the mean time we get to pat ourselves on the back and feel good for ditching those icky internal combustion engines! On a more serious note - and people wonder how we end up where things like this get so dire? Here we go again!
- plorkyeran 4y ago
  Electric cars are primarily charged at off-peak times and so even with a full transition to electric (which is decades away) peak usage would only increase slightly.
  - WaitWaitWha 4y ago
    > Electric cars are primarily charged at off-peak times When would that time be? I get home from work after 17:00/5:00PM. Plug in my EV, and set the air conditioner to a few degrees lower. I get up and leave for work at 7:00. EV cars with Level 2 charging take from 5h (Mini SE Hardtop) to 12h (Tesla Model S). The average is 8.6h, and median at 8h. [0,1] At Level 1 charging, the charging time can take days, depending on the vehicle. > According to California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC), the California Energy Commission (CEC) and California Independent System Operator (CAISO), the state’s electricity grid reaches its peak level of usage between the late afternoon and early evening – a time frame in which electricity produced by renewable resources is less available and thus costs more to produce. The peak demand period is generally defined as the hours between 4 to 9PM ... [1] With the above details, with the best case scenario on timing & charging, that means I must not plug in my vehicle before 9:00PM, but have to before 10:30PM. If California is hoping that people will plug in their vehicles "at the right time", that is not a re-assuring strategy. [0] https://www.carcareportal.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-electric-cars/ https://www.carcareportal.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-charg... [1] https://www.carcovers.com/carresources/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-an-electric-car/ https://www.carcovers.com/carresources/how-long-does-it-take... [2] https://energyupgradeca.org/time-of-use-faqs https://energyupgradeca.org/time-of-use-faqs
colechristensen 4y ago
I am regularly reminded of reasons why moving somewhere that has adequate rain and a responsibly managed electrical grid was a good idea. Cutting my rent in half and a distinct lack of forest fire smoke sure helps.
BashiBazouk 4y ago
Reminds me of back in the mid 90's when I worked at IBM at the Cottle road site. One hot summer we had rolling blackouts. I was working in disk sputtering for hard drives. IBM had good backup generators. When the power went out it was just a flicker with the change over but it was enough to kill the vacuum of the Ulvac sputtering tool I was working on. More accurately, it probably killed the certification of the vacuum. We had to open her up, bake out the cryo-pumps, clean the machine then pump back down to the proper vacuum. A good 5 hours to get back in to production. Most of it pumping down to the proper vacuum. Good times.
game_the0ry 4y ago
> There are other costs to consider. Several studies have demonstrated that working women are subject to a “motherhood penalty” either during pregnancy or after they give birth. > Newsom’s order temporarily loosens environmental regulations on gas-burning power plants, allowing them to run full-tilt during the heat wave, which the governor said could last for a week. > The call for conservation comes hours before state lawmakers are expected to decide the fate of the state’s largest power-generating facility: the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant. The two atomic reactors -- the last remaining ones in the state -- are scheduled to close by the end of 2025. When reality meets bullshit, reality wins. Always.
Abraham55 4y ago
[dead]

90 points by hubraumhugo 4y ago

Group_B 4y ago

This is what happens when millions of people decide to live in a desert

LtWorf 4y ago
And I guess most homes are cheaply built and with insufficient insulation.
- falcolas 4y ago
  But it doesn't get cold... why do you need insulation? /s (Yes, I realize that northern California can be snow-bound in the higher elevations) Seriously though, I watch a few builders on YouTube, and the amount of insulation they put on spec homes is the minimal amount they can get away with. A shame, considering how you can get a home well enough insulated that you could heat it in a Canadian winter with a hair dryer.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    Temperatures in Silicon Valley can easily get into the low 50s. That gets pretty uncomfortable inside. My uninsulated 1930s house in Ohio holds heat better than my friend's Palo Alto apartment.
    - boldlybold 4y ago
      Low 30s in Palo Alto and Menlo Park where I live. Cold enough to have frost on windshields or grass early in the morning. Biggest change for California weather was the delta between day and night!
  - Gravityloss 4y ago
    Do people calculate total cost of living, including heating and cooling electricity? Or AC size? There's some SAAS opportunity there...
    - falcolas 4y ago
      Sadly, right now people are happy to have the roof, regardless of the ongoing cost. And landlords... they'll just pass those costs on to the renters.
      - Gravityloss 4y ago
        But surely, if you're thinking of buying house A or B, the actual monthly costs should be a very big part of the decision, and affect the price you can pay for each house (size of mortgage payment). Say, after salary, taxes, food you have 1000 euros per month that you can spend. There are two houses, where in one, you can spend 500 on mortgage and 500 on energy bills, and in the other, you can spend 700 on mortgage and 300 on energy bills. But if you just buy the house that has 500 on mortgage because "it's cheaper", it's not actually cheaper in total. This should also interest banks that give people mortgages. Also, if you rent that house out, if the energy cost is directly part of the rent, the house with the higher energy cost has a higher rent, hence it's less attractive. Again, market forces. So in reality, you can get more profit out of the house that has the lower energy cost, because in reality, the cost is not be passed directly to the renters.
tomatotomato37 4y ago
Arizona seems to be doing fine
- erellsworth 4y ago
  For now... https://www.kvoa.com/community/drought-threatens-power-supply-in-the-southwest/article_48162eec-1ea6-11ed-b0ad-cb05f76edf8f.html https://www.kvoa.com/community/drought-threatens-power-suppl...
- Entinel 4y ago
  Arizona's population is around 7 million. California's population is around 40 million.
bombcar 4y ago
This is what happens when you continue to build new demand but don't build new capacity to match: https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/califo...
- epistasis 4y ago
  Well when you balance the new demand with energy efficiency for a long time... The real problem is that the demand models did not account for a worsening climate at the pace that it is encountering record hot days. Though for that matter, almost nobody accounted for that, so it's hard to blame the grid planners too much.
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    If this is driven by air conditioning (which I would have assumed) why are they asking people not to charge EVs? Surely most people charge at night?
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Because that is (possibly) flexible demand that might have the ability to be shifted to low demand periods to prioritize cooling (or in general, higher priority loads). https://www.energy.gov/oe/activities/technology-development/grid-modernization-and-smart-grid/demand-response https://www.energy.gov/oe/activities/technology-development/... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management
    - bombcar 4y ago
      When you're at the edge you can ask for anything - and electric cars is an easy one to describe. You could also ask people to reduce electric range cooking, electric dryer usage, etc, but that can be harder to describe and offer more inconvenience. Also, most people with an electric car probably have another mode of transportation they can switch to.
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
California is now losing population so maybe the situation will rectify itself.
spaceman_2020 4y ago
Large deserts with plenty of open space would be perfect for solar power to be honest.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Depends on the dust and sand. The upkeep of solar facilities in deserts can cost more (compared to rooftop/agricultural solar installations) due to maintenance requirements.
jiggyjace 4y ago
It takes less energy to cool down an interior space by one degree than heat it by one degree. You don't see active water crises in Arizona or California like you have in Jackson, Mississippi.
- falcolas 4y ago
  When you use heat pumps, you can get roughly equal efficiency. They're pretty impressive tools.

timcavel 4y ago

newaccount2021 4y ago

agentultra 4y ago

And they want to close down their remaining nuclear plants? Wow. I guess with desertification it would be a stretch to find an ample source of cooling water. Does this mean they're planning their base loads on natural gas then? Or are they holding out for SMEs that don't need large volumes of water?

BurningFrog 4y ago
The nuclear plant was saved this morning: https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1119778975/california-lawmakers-extend-the-life-of-the-states-last-nuclear-power-plant https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1119778975/california-lawmake...
sampo 4y ago
In today's news: "California lawmakers extend the life of the state's last nuclear power plant" https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1119778975/california-lawmakers-extend-the-life-of-the-states-last-nuclear-power-plant https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1119778975/california-lawmake...
bombcar 4y ago
The article itself says Newsom is trying to extend Diablo Canyon by five years. But too many plants have gone offline and not been replaced; generating capacity appears to be flat for ten+ years or more.
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
The Palo Verde nuclear plant is the largest in the US and isn't near a body of water. According to Wikipedia, "The power plant evaporates the water from the treated sewage from several nearby cities and towns to provide the cooling of the steam that it produces." Wonder if that could work for the drier parts of California.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
Their nuclear plant is on the ocean coast. The amount of water in oceans is only expected to increase.
survirtual 4y ago

ParksNet 4y ago

ProTip: Run your AC hard overnight, when temperatures are in the low 70s, and use your house as a thermal battery (assuming its reasonably insulated).

anamexis 4y ago
Seems like it would be a lot more efficient to just blow in a bunch of outside air when its cool outside.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Depends on if temperatures drop below 70 outside. If you're near the coast, open all windows at night when temps are low, and let the house get as cold as possible during the night. In the morning, close all windows and cover them with blinds, and turn the A/C off during the hottest part of the day. Don't open the fridge or freezer if possible, and keep lights off.
- MrDunham 4y ago
  Both, really. Normalize first with the ambient temperature and then run the AC to sub ambient down towards the 60s. AC efficiency increases as temperature decreases. You would have to deal with the fact that your house is now frigidly cold. Also, I can’t remember the last house I lived in California that had decent insulation - so that’s a major assumption.
germinalphrase 4y ago
How well insulated are California houses built before, say, 1990? I live up north now where insulation is a given, but when I lived in Louisiana, the houses were made from sticks. High ceilings, but no insulation anywhere.
- api 4y ago
  People think you only need insulation in cold climates when in reality AC is often more expensive and energy intensive than heating.

adamsmith143 4y ago

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deleted 4y ago
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epistasis 4y ago
If people die, and there were super easy checks to kee power from tripping off that had been reported on and ignored, sure, I'll be mad as hell. I'm still incredibly mad that PG&E's grid mismanagement has caused massive fires and killed so many people. Still mad as hell about that gas line explosion that killed people and took out homes. So unless you have a particular fix or action to propose that comes from partisan politics, there's not much point into turning this into a partisan politics battle.
- adamsmith143 4y ago
  Well it certainly wasn't conservatives cheering and meme'ing the suffering of millions of Texans
  - falcolas 4y ago
    It wasn't liberals either. We were largely sad and provided support where we could to the citizens. We were also angry at the senators and other Texas officials who brought that situation about. I (I'll even go so far to say that a vast majority of liberal leaning folks) don't rejoice in other's misery.
    - abduhl 4y ago
      The common scene I see is that the majority of <insert ideologically identifying term> don’t rejoice in other’s misery but rather do rejoice in pointing out how much those others deserve it.
      - falcolas 4y ago

jasonlotito 4y ago

A lot of people will see this as a pure failure, but this is the system at work. Yes, there are improvements that can be made, but my understanding from reading this is they are handling it. This is part of the process, and it's the exception. This is part of the capacity planning, basically. I guess I would equate it to getting DDoS'ed. You might declare an "emergency" but put into practice plans you had for when this happened. It's the exception, not the rule. It's an "emergency" but it's planned for. Would it be great if this didn't happen? Sure. But that there clearly are plans in place when it happens is a good sign. It's much better than if nothing was done. You'd still have the emergency, but with no clear plan of action.

gibsonf1 4y ago
A well run state would just not have this problem. It's all caused by bad policy. I would prefer some learning from mistakes and fixing bad policy over being forced to leave the State.
mattboardman 4y ago
From an outsider's perspective this appears to be a systemic failure. Maybe because California is a political whipping post, but they seem to be in the news a lot with power disruptions. Is this just a perception and not reality? I live in Nebraska with high summer temperatures and don't remember there being an emergency declared.
- pm90 4y ago
  The population of the entire state of Nevraska is less that 2 million. The population of a single city in CA (LA) is twice that. Not an apples to apples comparison.
  - mattboardman 4y ago
    Could you elaborate on the differences? Nebraska might only have 2 million people to power but that also means they only have 2 million people's worth of income taxes to manage the infrastructure. Does power infrastructure and generation become exponentially harder to scale or is it linear? (I'm genuinely curious)

ssizn 4y ago

Ah, those damn Enron traders!!!

vbezhenar 4y ago

I don’t remember blackouts in my country since 90s. It seems that parts of US could be considered worst that third-world country with some aspects. From my old experience I could suggest buying diesel generator and have enough supply of diesel fuel to run it for a few days at least. Also few tonnes of coal, but that’s for cold climate.

cpach 4y ago
Will be interesting to see if we in the Nordics/EU will get blackouts the coming winter. The outlook is not great.
- FerretFred 4y ago
  Ditto in the UK. Successive governments have run down infrastructure and power generation alike, with no thought as to how the UK is going to get enough power in the near future. The outgoing Idiot In Charge has just signed off on a new nuclear power plant but it'll take 10 years to build. In the meantime we're wondering if we could reopen some coal mines, and restart some of the coal-fired power plants that have been mothballed.
mtoner23 4y ago
Worse than third world grid?? Come on
- dmix 4y ago
  His country didnt have blackouts in the 90s, California does. The math checks out.
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  > with some aspects He's clearly laid out the aspects he's talking about, too. If availability of electricity is something you prioritize, then the failure in that regard is significant. If you don't prioritize that, then recognize that you're probably in the minority.
- hedora 4y ago

stuckinhell 4y ago

California is a great example of the road to hell is paved with good intentions. At some point, we are going to realize "green" non nuclear energy doesn't work. We need nuclear. Good intentions doesn't make a good government. California politicians seem to have a lot of good intentions on homelessness, jail reform, education, healthcare, but the reality is just an awful hell zone.

quest88 4y ago
How will nuclear solve the problem? Does it provide enough energy?
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  Yes
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  It does if you build it. Edit: a typo
- WaitWaitWha 4y ago
  Absolutely; the following countries have most of their electricity made by nuke plants[0]: France 69.0% Ukraine 55.0% Slovakia 52.3% Belgium 50.8% Hungary 46.8% [0] International atomic energy agency; US Energy Information Administration Updated: August 2022
  - berkut 4y ago
    It can solve the problem: that doesn't mean there aren't other potential issues that need to be handled correctly. Take France for instance - it's currently becoming a net importer of electricity due to many (~60%) of its Nuclear reactors being offline for maintenance.
- swarnie 4y ago
  Far better than dinosaur juice imo.

falcolas 4y ago

I looked this up yesterday, and figure it would be interesting to folks who are perusing these threads. Power generation capacity with breakdowns by type and import for the state of California. https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/califo... The most fascinating point I saw is that the total power generation capacity effectively hasn't changed since 2001.

dboreham 4y ago
Interesting: geothermal is an order of magnitude more than I would have guessed.
blitzar 4y ago
I suspect this is a theme in the western world globally. Energy demand over that time is down in the developed world - the UK for example peaked in 2005 at ~400 terrawatt-hours to ~330 terrawatt-hours in 2021 (with >10% increase in population). https://www.statista.com/statistics/323381/total-demand-for-electricity-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/323381/total-demand-for-... Edit: I dont expect this trend will remain, cars switching from liquid fuel to electricity and heating from gas to electricity is going to accelerate at some point and cancel the efficiency savings.

chasd00 4y ago

Everyone likes to point and laugh when a state has grid problems. I live in Texas and so have been in the receiving end a lot. The article is mostly about the prep work and conservation going on now to deal with the heat wave expected over the coming week. It all seems reasonable to me, exceptional circumstances need exceptional prep work and action. In the larger scheme I think city planners are going to have to start accounting for weather events outside of the typical boundaries as more and more effects of climate change take hold. I’m not going to point and laugh at CA, I hope you guys make it through with minimal interruptions.

ajvs 4y ago
It's okay to point and laugh here, because one week they're banning non-electric vehicles and the next they're saying people shouldn't charge their electric vehicles due to insufficient electricity.
- acidburnNSA 4y ago
  At least they voted to keep their nuclear plant on for another 5 years.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jlmorton 4y ago
  There's nothing contradictory there. The fact that EV charging can be easily time-shifted is an enormous benefit. There are few things as beneficial to the grid as EVs will be.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    > EV charging can be easily time-shifted If, and only if, you live in a place that provides you with the ability to overnight charge. So that probably excludes a vast majority of Californians who live in apartments or condos. Charging cables are also pretty popular with thieves, since they contain a lot of copper and provide no inherent theft prevention, another minus for apartment/condo dwellers.

edmcnulty101 4y ago

Didn't California just ban non-electrical vehicles? If they don't have the grid capacity to support what exists now with a small spike...how will they support a hundred million EVs? EDIT: For everyone saying there's still 13 years until that happens. CA hasn't increased it's energy capacity since 2001. People think energy prices are bad now try 13 years with 100 million EV's. And by disallowing any source of cheap non-green Energy...democratic policies will essentially favor the rich who will be the only one's who can afford a 50,000 solar array to power a 30,000 EV. The non-rich will be on a bus with the homeless crazy people. Sources and clear evidence directly from CA dept. of energy. https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/califo... Found this out from this poster: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32676518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32676518

stragies 4y ago
They ban is effective starting only 2035, I thought. 13 more years to go before the deadline.
- Spivak 4y ago
  And it's only the sale of new gas cars. If your goal is to drive an ICE car for as long as humanly possible you could easily make it 30 years from today only buying new.
itsoktocry 4y ago
>Didn't Californian just ban non-electrical vehicles? Wasn't there a recent article on this very site, titled along the lines of "Yes, the US electric grid can handle EVs"?
colinmhayes 4y ago
They banned the sale of non-electric vehicles starting in 2035. Looking at automakers roadmaps, it'll be hard to find new ones by then, so this wasn't really a huge deal.
4y ago

thepasswordis 4y ago

California is such a depressing thing. You have some of the most beautiful land in earth (the California coast is uniquely beautiful imo) you had some of the smartest people in earth in the highest concentration, some of the best weather in earth, the best companies, the best most innovative industries. Everything. And they just…squandered it. In like 15 years. At some point does California look in the mirror and wonder if just maybe it wasnt those darn republicans after all? What’s infuriating is watching Californian refugees flee the disaster that their policies created and then try to implement them those same policies in their new host states. I’m already seeing this happen in my state.

agent281 4y ago
Why do you say the last 15 years? We had the Enron blackouts 20 years ago that were so bad they effectively forced the recall of the governor. The grid has had its issues for a while.
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  The power grid is not Californias only current humanitarian disaster.
edmcnulty101 4y ago
It's interesting to watch it decline. And to see the lessons learned.
umeshunni 4y ago
Don't worry. They're still blaming the Reagan governorship for all their problems.
- hollywood_court 4y ago
  I’m not sure how the Reagan governorship is effecting California to this day, but I know that the US still hasn’t recovered from his presidency.

kraig911 4y ago

Texan here. Sorry for my brothers and sisters in California. It seems that people like to talk politics about crap like this - who knew? That said, this seems to very much to be just the new norm when we want to live comfortably in an environment we've made uncomfortable. It's going to take effort, money and above all love for your fellow man. And for some reason in this country we are severely lacking in that last department.

pm90 4y ago
> And for some reason in this country we are severely lacking in that last department. I think its very clear. There are actors that feeding into the hate because that fuels views/engagement to their platforms and keeps them in power.

WaitWaitWha 4y ago

How will this work out with the ban on gasoline car sales? Are there plans & budget to upgrade the infrastructure? Are there plans & budget to replace/update/install/negotiate new source of electric power? (asking as I am not Californian.)

EricE 4y ago
Those are tough questions someone else will surely answer some time in the future. In the mean time we get to pat ourselves on the back and feel good for ditching those icky internal combustion engines! On a more serious note - and people wonder how we end up where things like this get so dire? Here we go again!
plorkyeran 4y ago
Electric cars are primarily charged at off-peak times and so even with a full transition to electric (which is decades away) peak usage would only increase slightly.
- WaitWaitWha 4y ago
  > Electric cars are primarily charged at off-peak times When would that time be? I get home from work after 17:00/5:00PM. Plug in my EV, and set the air conditioner to a few degrees lower. I get up and leave for work at 7:00. EV cars with Level 2 charging take from 5h (Mini SE Hardtop) to 12h (Tesla Model S). The average is 8.6h, and median at 8h. [0,1] At Level 1 charging, the charging time can take days, depending on the vehicle. > According to California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC), the California Energy Commission (CEC) and California Independent System Operator (CAISO), the state’s electricity grid reaches its peak level of usage between the late afternoon and early evening – a time frame in which electricity produced by renewable resources is less available and thus costs more to produce. The peak demand period is generally defined as the hours between 4 to 9PM ... [1] With the above details, with the best case scenario on timing & charging, that means I must not plug in my vehicle before 9:00PM, but have to before 10:30PM. If California is hoping that people will plug in their vehicles "at the right time", that is not a re-assuring strategy. [0] https://www.carcareportal.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-electric-cars/ https://www.carcareportal.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-charg... [1] https://www.carcovers.com/carresources/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-an-electric-car/ https://www.carcovers.com/carresources/how-long-does-it-take... [2] https://energyupgradeca.org/time-of-use-faqs https://energyupgradeca.org/time-of-use-faqs

colechristensen 4y ago

I am regularly reminded of reasons why moving somewhere that has adequate rain and a responsibly managed electrical grid was a good idea. Cutting my rent in half and a distinct lack of forest fire smoke sure helps.

BashiBazouk 4y ago

Reminds me of back in the mid 90's when I worked at IBM at the Cottle road site. One hot summer we had rolling blackouts. I was working in disk sputtering for hard drives. IBM had good backup generators. When the power went out it was just a flicker with the change over but it was enough to kill the vacuum of the Ulvac sputtering tool I was working on. More accurately, it probably killed the certification of the vacuum. We had to open her up, bake out the cryo-pumps, clean the machine then pump back down to the proper vacuum. A good 5 hours to get back in to production. Most of it pumping down to the proper vacuum. Good times.

game_the0ry 4y ago

> There are other costs to consider. Several studies have demonstrated that working women are subject to a “motherhood penalty” either during pregnancy or after they give birth. > Newsom’s order temporarily loosens environmental regulations on gas-burning power plants, allowing them to run full-tilt during the heat wave, which the governor said could last for a week. > The call for conservation comes hours before state lawmakers are expected to decide the fate of the state’s largest power-generating facility: the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant. The two atomic reactors -- the last remaining ones in the state -- are scheduled to close by the end of 2025. When reality meets bullshit, reality wins. Always.

Abraham55 4y ago

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