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I just don't want to live in a world where society is governed and censored by big corporations. Wanting them to do so to further my worldview invites others t

I just don't want to live in a world where society is governed and censored by big corporations. Wanting them to do so to further my worldview invites others to further the worldview of people I oppose. Leave the governing to the government, especially when it comes to systems with very broad usages (social networks, internet infrastructure, etc.)

phillipcarter 4y ago
> I just don't want to live in a world where society is governed and censored by big corporations. You already do. And that's actually a good thing. It means that in free societies like the USA, these companies are free to choose to do (or not do) business with whomever they choose. They are not free from the market reacting to those decisions, though.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Which is effectively mob rule, or fear-of-mob-rule rule. I don't want dominating corporations to be run by people afraid of offending a vocal minority.
  - helloworld97 4y ago
    Who decides what's a minority?
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      By "vocal minority" I mean a small but loud group, the literal definition of minority not the social justice sense of some oppressed group.
      - devmor 4y ago
        Oh, so like a forum full of people addicted to internet stalking?
  - mojzu 4y ago
    I understand your point and largely agree with the idea that corporations shouldn't become de-facto governments with regard to morality/free-speech/etc. However I think it's important to acknowledge that there's a really difficult problem to solve here with regards to spam, astroturfing and harassment/trolling (if not more areas) where allowing everything that is technically legal would make most online spaces unbearable to participate in for the vast majority of people (e.g. 4chan and its ilk). And the line between moderating those things and censorship is incredibly blurry
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      It is not Cloudflare's job to moderate a website they provide network services to. This is a different issue than a social network doing moderation and spam prevention on its own platform. It is not Cloudflare's job to protect Twitter or wherever else from a forum of assholes.
      - phillipcarter 4y ago
        It's not Cloudflare's job to do anything. They can just stop DDoS protection for everyone BUT nazi sites if they want to. That's called freedom! ...but they're not free from public reactions to their choices.
      - mojzu 4y ago
        Although I'd agree there is a difference I think these issues are closer than you think, for example if Cloudflare was providing network services to a website dedicated to spam, trolling or harrassment. These things in many jurisdictions are not illegal but many companies will refuse to support them because they are actively bad for business (driving existing or potential customers away, making their own products worse, etc.). Ideals can be great but trying to apply them without considering the effects, intended or not, can lead to poor results
  - phillipcarter 4y ago
    Everything is mob rule, or fear-of-mob-rule rule. Most companies have principles on how they do business, and they adjust those principles based on how people (internally and externally) react to them. That's why Google shut down its search engine for the CCP - it's mob rule at Google, and if you decide to do something that enough people find unethical, you won't hear the end of it until you stop. Why do you think this is a bad thing, or that it's somehow not the way the world works?
mjr00 4y ago
Agreed. IMO, people encouraging Cloudflare and other corporations to take political stances are very short-sighted. With the amount of Saudi Arabian and Chinese investment and influence continuing to grow in major corporations, you have to imagine that large tech corporations being aligned with west-coast US Democrat politics isn't going to last forever. As the article says, "... [not providing services based on moral character] is a dangerous precedent, and one that is over the long term most likely to disproportionately harm vulnerable and marginalized communities."
- briHass 4y ago
  Very similar to the short-sightedness of encouraging and celebrating creative circumventions of typical government checks and balances (Executive orders and judicial rulings used instead of legislature, etc.), only to be shocked and appalled when the game is flipped back on them when the 'other team' gets the ball.
nightpool 4y ago
Cloudflare choosing to continue to provide their security services to Kiwifarms won't do anything about the fact that they're unregulated, and can offer or revoke services from whoever they choose and whatever time they wish. If you want to turn Cloudflare into a regulated monopoly, or utility company, then I would be open to that argument, but if you leave them as an unregulated, profit-seeking enterprise then you have to be critical about where that profit is coming from and what moral tactics you're okay with them to further that profit.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  I don't want to hear cloudflare's opinions on social matters. If kiwifarms or whatever is doing something illegal, let the law go after them and encourage that. I don't want to force cloudflare to be a public utility, but it is probably bigger and more dominant than any company needs to be, like many others it should be broken up into smaller pieces.
newman314 4y ago
This reeks of "both-siding" which is insanely frustrating for me. Look, I get opening a can of worms and "stay out of my business" but at the same time, we need to be able as a society be able to and be unafraid to say when things are clearly bad. "Nazism is bad" EOM That wasn't so hard, was it?
- colechristensen 4y ago
  It is not "both siding". I do not want corporations acting as government regardless of whose side they are on. I do not want to normalize or encourage such regulation by corporation. If some behavior is so bad, advocate for a law against it or for the enforcement of that law. If it is not so bad, let it exist even if you don't like it. The whole thing about rule by the people is that having individuals or small groups that get to arbitrarily make rules and enforce them is bad. Monarchy and despotism is bad, whether or not you like what they're doing. Despotism by corporation is just as bad and shouldn't be encouraged. It's not different because you're trying to get them to arbitrarily create rules that agree with you.
- protomyth 4y ago
  How about social media mobs unfairly categorizes people and corporations that listen to mobs or committees are untrustworthy. we need to be able as a society be able to and be unafraid to say when things are clearly bad. Sadly, "disagrees with me" is considered bad and called vile insults these days.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  [flagged]
- boppo1 4y ago
  Have you ever heard of Godwin's law?
- saas_sam 4y ago
  Why do you think the generation who actually fought and died against Nazis nevertheless held that displaying a Nazi flag is protected speech in America? Do you think you understand something they didn't? Were they naive? Are you perhaps more intimately connected to the evils of Nazism than they were? Maybe they didn't understand that an entire country could fall to the evils of Nazism if they were not stamped out aggressively? Or. Maybe they understood these things even better than you. And maybe they believed freedom of speech is even more anti-Nazi than banning Nazis.
amrocha 4y ago
I just don't want to live in a world where my trans friends get relentlessly harassed and cyber bullied until they kill themselves. Can I have that?
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Call the cops, file restraining orders, and get a good therapist. Assholes and trolls are still going to exist regardless of what any platform does. You can’t have what you want by trying to pressure cloudflare, it won’t make a positive difference. Do something real instead of advocating for something toothless and symbolic.
  - FullyFunctional 4y ago
    How exactly do you file a restraining order against an unknown group of unnamed people? It seems like a very privileged victim-blaming POV.
    - remarkEon 4y ago
      The FBI, and increasingly police departments, have fairly large cyber forensics capabilities. If someone is doing something illegal, report it.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        Do you actually think there is any chance they would investigate?
        remarkEon 4y ago
        I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you implying that the police will decline to investigate death threats and the like for political reasons?
        Dylan16807 4y ago
ArrayBoundCheck 4y ago
I don't want to live in a world where someone else makes the world a better place better than we do - Gavin B

phillipcarter 4y ago

> I just don't want to live in a world where society is governed and censored by big corporations. You already do. And that's actually a good thing. It means that in free societies like the USA, these companies are free to choose to do (or not do) business with whomever they choose. They are not free from the market reacting to those decisions, though.

colechristensen 4y ago
Which is effectively mob rule, or fear-of-mob-rule rule. I don't want dominating corporations to be run by people afraid of offending a vocal minority.
- helloworld97 4y ago
  Who decides what's a minority?
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    By "vocal minority" I mean a small but loud group, the literal definition of minority not the social justice sense of some oppressed group.
    - devmor 4y ago
      Oh, so like a forum full of people addicted to internet stalking?
- mojzu 4y ago
  I understand your point and largely agree with the idea that corporations shouldn't become de-facto governments with regard to morality/free-speech/etc. However I think it's important to acknowledge that there's a really difficult problem to solve here with regards to spam, astroturfing and harassment/trolling (if not more areas) where allowing everything that is technically legal would make most online spaces unbearable to participate in for the vast majority of people (e.g. 4chan and its ilk). And the line between moderating those things and censorship is incredibly blurry
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    It is not Cloudflare's job to moderate a website they provide network services to. This is a different issue than a social network doing moderation and spam prevention on its own platform. It is not Cloudflare's job to protect Twitter or wherever else from a forum of assholes.
    - phillipcarter 4y ago
      It's not Cloudflare's job to do anything. They can just stop DDoS protection for everyone BUT nazi sites if they want to. That's called freedom! ...but they're not free from public reactions to their choices.
    - mojzu 4y ago
      Although I'd agree there is a difference I think these issues are closer than you think, for example if Cloudflare was providing network services to a website dedicated to spam, trolling or harrassment. These things in many jurisdictions are not illegal but many companies will refuse to support them because they are actively bad for business (driving existing or potential customers away, making their own products worse, etc.). Ideals can be great but trying to apply them without considering the effects, intended or not, can lead to poor results
- phillipcarter 4y ago
  Everything is mob rule, or fear-of-mob-rule rule. Most companies have principles on how they do business, and they adjust those principles based on how people (internally and externally) react to them. That's why Google shut down its search engine for the CCP - it's mob rule at Google, and if you decide to do something that enough people find unethical, you won't hear the end of it until you stop. Why do you think this is a bad thing, or that it's somehow not the way the world works?

mjr00 4y ago

Agreed. IMO, people encouraging Cloudflare and other corporations to take political stances are very short-sighted. With the amount of Saudi Arabian and Chinese investment and influence continuing to grow in major corporations, you have to imagine that large tech corporations being aligned with west-coast US Democrat politics isn't going to last forever. As the article says, "... [not providing services based on moral character] is a dangerous precedent, and one that is over the long term most likely to disproportionately harm vulnerable and marginalized communities."

briHass 4y ago
Very similar to the short-sightedness of encouraging and celebrating creative circumventions of typical government checks and balances (Executive orders and judicial rulings used instead of legislature, etc.), only to be shocked and appalled when the game is flipped back on them when the 'other team' gets the ball.

nightpool 4y ago

Cloudflare choosing to continue to provide their security services to Kiwifarms won't do anything about the fact that they're unregulated, and can offer or revoke services from whoever they choose and whatever time they wish. If you want to turn Cloudflare into a regulated monopoly, or utility company, then I would be open to that argument, but if you leave them as an unregulated, profit-seeking enterprise then you have to be critical about where that profit is coming from and what moral tactics you're okay with them to further that profit.

colechristensen 4y ago
I don't want to hear cloudflare's opinions on social matters. If kiwifarms or whatever is doing something illegal, let the law go after them and encourage that. I don't want to force cloudflare to be a public utility, but it is probably bigger and more dominant than any company needs to be, like many others it should be broken up into smaller pieces.

newman314 4y ago

This reeks of "both-siding" which is insanely frustrating for me. Look, I get opening a can of worms and "stay out of my business" but at the same time, we need to be able as a society be able to and be unafraid to say when things are clearly bad. "Nazism is bad" EOM That wasn't so hard, was it?

colechristensen 4y ago
It is not "both siding". I do not want corporations acting as government regardless of whose side they are on. I do not want to normalize or encourage such regulation by corporation. If some behavior is so bad, advocate for a law against it or for the enforcement of that law. If it is not so bad, let it exist even if you don't like it. The whole thing about rule by the people is that having individuals or small groups that get to arbitrarily make rules and enforce them is bad. Monarchy and despotism is bad, whether or not you like what they're doing. Despotism by corporation is just as bad and shouldn't be encouraged. It's not different because you're trying to get them to arbitrarily create rules that agree with you.
protomyth 4y ago
How about social media mobs unfairly categorizes people and corporations that listen to mobs or committees are untrustworthy. we need to be able as a society be able to and be unafraid to say when things are clearly bad. Sadly, "disagrees with me" is considered bad and called vile insults these days.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
[flagged]
boppo1 4y ago
Have you ever heard of Godwin's law?
saas_sam 4y ago
Why do you think the generation who actually fought and died against Nazis nevertheless held that displaying a Nazi flag is protected speech in America? Do you think you understand something they didn't? Were they naive? Are you perhaps more intimately connected to the evils of Nazism than they were? Maybe they didn't understand that an entire country could fall to the evils of Nazism if they were not stamped out aggressively? Or. Maybe they understood these things even better than you. And maybe they believed freedom of speech is even more anti-Nazi than banning Nazis.

amrocha 4y ago

I just don't want to live in a world where my trans friends get relentlessly harassed and cyber bullied until they kill themselves. Can I have that?

colechristensen 4y ago
Call the cops, file restraining orders, and get a good therapist. Assholes and trolls are still going to exist regardless of what any platform does. You can’t have what you want by trying to pressure cloudflare, it won’t make a positive difference. Do something real instead of advocating for something toothless and symbolic.
- FullyFunctional 4y ago
  How exactly do you file a restraining order against an unknown group of unnamed people? It seems like a very privileged victim-blaming POV.
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    The FBI, and increasingly police departments, have fairly large cyber forensics capabilities. If someone is doing something illegal, report it.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      Do you actually think there is any chance they would investigate?
      - remarkEon 4y ago
        I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you implying that the police will decline to investigate death threats and the like for political reasons?
        Dylan16807 4y ago

ArrayBoundCheck 4y ago

I don't want to live in a world where someone else makes the world a better place better than we do - Gavin B