6 ms·

The last question in the FAQ makes it clear that this can only be used in the context of their account-based online tool. Their free offering literally says "3

by abeppu 4y ago

The last question in the FAQ makes it clear that this can only be used in the context of their account-based online tool. Their free offering literally says "3 diagrams". Above this, the FAQ tries to compare their tool to Mermaid, Graphviz, PlantUML which are all open source, locally runnable, etc. Their comparison totally skips the fact that, because D2 can only be used in their service, a broad number of use cases (including programmatically generating diagrams inside some other application) basically aren't supported. Seems like it could have been cool, but likely will not seriously try it because of these limits.

kevmoo1 4y ago
Agreed! Interesting idea, but charging for this is not going to get them very far. Gotta find a way to do an "open core" or similar.
geraldwhen 4y ago
This is a complete non starter for any regulated industry. Shame. Mermaid works almost okay and often looks like garbage. I wish there was an open source effort somewhere to do better, or even a paid locally runnable tool that has no service connections.
- Veuxdo 4y ago
  Ilograph [0] is a similar (and, in my biased opinion, better) tool that has a 100% local runtime option (called Ilograph Desktop). You can still test-drive it with the browser version, of course. [0] https://www.ilograph.com https://www.ilograph.com
- JohnHaugeland 4y ago
  Here's an option: https://stonecypher.github.io/jssm-viz-demo/graph_explorer.html https://stonecypher.github.io/jssm-viz-demo/graph_explorer.h...
- tonerow 4y ago
  It won't work for every use case but https://flowchart.fun https://flowchart.fun is one open-source alternative
- cush 4y ago
  It's why I keep falling back to excalidraw over tools like mermaid with auto-layout. When I need to communicate an idea, often I really need to fuss with layout in order to get my point across, and having the control to drag things around is the only way to get there.
  - kyriakos 4y ago
    Problem with non automated tools is that editing becomes a big issue since you have to reflow big parts of the diagram to make an addition. This is always my biggest issue with any diagram, the fact that they are evolving.
    - cush 4y ago
      Oh of course. This is the tradeoff. That said, over time a diagram's value will diminish regardless if you have auto-layout or not, since the codebase will always outpace documentation.
geodel 4y ago
Agree. To be honest, I'd find it useful if it were closed source but native installable tool that can convert text to diagram which then could be exported to image/pdf etc.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  Yup. I use many paid, local tools. And because there’s no network service nonsense it’s not a problem at work.
sieabahlpark 4y ago
Would you believe me if I said this was just an ad and you wasted time on it? Just because HN isn't Reddit doesn't mean ads aren't thrown in with all the curated "content"
- armchairhacker 4y ago
  May be an ad but this is something I would actually use if it wasn't paid. Like other said, maybe it will inspire someone to take this and make an open-source version
  - rch 4y ago
    If it was open source with a permissive license I'd start paying immediately, like I have with other projects. > if it wasn't paid. Maybe you intended to say 'if it wasn't closed', or similar.
abeppu 4y ago
Also, to me this was a reminder of the importance of context and assumptions in good communication. Never having heard of this org, I clicked the link for this post, saw the top-level blurb describing the project and assumed that a 'language' which generates diagrams from declarations would be something I could _run_. I clicked on the 'Getting Started' section and was annoyed that there was no 'Installation' section. I started from a context that inclined me to think of this as a stand-alone project which ought to have certain characteristics. I think the author of this page started with the assumption that of _course_ given their business and product, a 'language' for diagrams is only giving users access to something that maps on to whatever internal representation their tool already uses, and allows technically inclined users to work with text and fewer clicks. To them, the assumption seems to have been that readers will already be users of their product, and the assumption that the 'language' is built into their tool _and nowhere else_ is so far in the background that it's only somewhat obliquely addressed as the last question in a FAQ.
rvense 4y ago
Services as a software substitute...
Per_Bothner 4y ago
People seem to be missing that this is a preview, not a product (yet). And that: "When the language is more stable, we intend to open source D2. This will happen sometime in 2022."
- stragies 4y ago
  Perhaps then "Preview/Beta online service" should be part of the Headline/title.
  - sophacles 4y ago
    Perhaps reading the article is a useful way to get information? If the headline contained everything everyone would conceivably want to know, it would be the article. It's not like the headline was misleading: "a new $tool" is a common phrase for software in alpha and beta stages.
    - stragies 4y ago
      So, to you, "Tool" or "Language" do NOT imply that you can use it independently of a specific online service? I mean, I agree, that "new" is marketing speak for "alpha/beta", but -to me- there is a difference between a "language/tool" and a "Single-Vendor-WebService". Or is my understanding of the semantics of the English language outdated?
      - sophacles 4y ago
        Not even outdated - just incorrect. There have been proprietary tools longer than there have been computers, it's the point of patents - grant a monopoly on your proprietary tool for X years in exchange for making it's workings public knowledge. Even patents aside, why wouldn't this D2 thing qualify as: COMPUTING a piece of software that carries out a particular function, typically creating or modifying another program. (source: google "define tool") While it isn't creating or modifying a program, I'd consider "parsing text in a specific syntax to create a diagram" more like a compiler than a site that just provides information or crud sites with some forms. I'm not entirely certain how where it runs affects it's tool status, but it certainly is a consideration to be made while evaluating it for any particular use case. (also from define tool: a thing used in an occupation or pursuit. and depending on where you stand on the "thingness" of software may also apply here, but that feels diversionary) I can think of quite a few single vendor languages - various IBM mainframe languages like JCL, K, matlab, multiple .Net and MS languages until recently, applescript, etc.
alixanderwang 4y ago
Those tools are mature 10-20+ year and we're just getting feedback for our little ol' alpha born ~yesterday. The limitations are temporary -- we are working on an offline, locally runnable experience (it's in the roadmap), but, alas, engineering bandwidth of a 6 person team. edit: I've updated the docs to make this clear
- BarryMilo 4y ago
  How is this different/better than, say, Mermaid?
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    For one thing, the output looks lightyears better.
    - marktolson 4y ago
      You can fully modify styles in mermaid using CSS and style attributes. You can also load it as a JS library, attach events to chart components, programmatically render charts plus way more.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- abeppu 4y ago
  Maybe starting this way makes sense. But when the project is trying to compare itself to others, it's only fair to compare based on what's true of the project currently vs what's aspirational. I would guess that for many potential users, the temporary limitations trump most of the stuff in the comparison portion of the FAQ, or the "current shortcomings" section. And the "Getting Started" section could also say "create an account and familiarize yourself with the existing terrastruct product" or whatever.
jacquesc 4y ago
Wow, thanks for the clarification. Totally missed this part. After having already evangelized this with my coworkers, I may need to take it back. If they made the core open and allowed users to use this language independently of their online service, there's still a ton of value they could have added with premium services on top of this. For writing the docs, sharing with teams, comments / versioning, etc. Visual figma type features essentially. A team bought into the specification would very likely pay for this. But it's hard to imagine it taking off being completely locked into their service. Ah well, a fine idea and looked pretty well executed. EDIT: maybe that's on their roadmap "When the language is more stable, we intend to open source D2. This will happen sometime in 2022.". Ok, back on board
- bunsenhoneydew 4y ago
  Looks like it will, just not yet: > INFO: It's currently in alpha. During this time, it's only housed on Terrastruct, which provides the most well-supported interface (IDE) for it. Once we have a stable v1, we'll release and continue development of it in open source and make local options available.
nine_k 4y ago
A simple check for an infrastructure tool (and a programming language is a king of infrastructure tools): does it have an open-source, unencumbered implementation? If not, I won't use it for anything serious.
ryukoposting 4y ago
Yikes. This looks like an amazing idea, but the online limitation kneecaps it. When I want to make diagrams graphically, I use diagrams.net. when I want to make diagrams from code, I use PIC. What else do people use? PIC works pretty well, but it has its limits and it's ancient.
- anjanb 4y ago
  could you share a link to PIC ?
  - personalidea 4y ago
    Here is the Wikipedia article, maybe a good starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_(markup_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_(markup_language)
  - tubs 4y ago
    https://pikchr.org/home/doc/trunk/homepage.md https://pikchr.org/home/doc/trunk/homepage.md An alternative implementation with good docs.
- tubs 4y ago
  https://pikchr.org/home/doc/trunk/homepage.md https://pikchr.org/home/doc/trunk/homepage.md Is a modern implementatiom that's pretty nice.
ww520 4y ago
Good to know. Thanks for the list of alternatives.
rapnie 4y ago
> Mermaid, Graphviz, PlantUML which are all open source, locally runnable, etc And there's C4 Model for Visualising Architecture [0] that has upcoming tool support, for instance Structurizr DSL [1]. It has an online editor [2] that can export to Mermaid, PlantUML and other formats. And has various open source repo's, like this Java codebase for the DSL itself [3]. [0] https://c4model.com/ https://c4model.com/ [1] https://structurizr.com/help/dsl https://structurizr.com/help/dsl [2] https://structurizr.com/dsl https://structurizr.com/dsl [3] https://github.com/structurizr/dsl https://github.com/structurizr/dsl

by abeppu 4y ago

kevmoo1 4y ago

Agreed! Interesting idea, but charging for this is not going to get them very far. Gotta find a way to do an "open core" or similar.

geraldwhen 4y ago

This is a complete non starter for any regulated industry. Shame. Mermaid works almost okay and often looks like garbage. I wish there was an open source effort somewhere to do better, or even a paid locally runnable tool that has no service connections.

Veuxdo 4y ago
Ilograph [0] is a similar (and, in my biased opinion, better) tool that has a 100% local runtime option (called Ilograph Desktop). You can still test-drive it with the browser version, of course. [0] https://www.ilograph.com https://www.ilograph.com
JohnHaugeland 4y ago
Here's an option: https://stonecypher.github.io/jssm-viz-demo/graph_explorer.html https://stonecypher.github.io/jssm-viz-demo/graph_explorer.h...
tonerow 4y ago
It won't work for every use case but https://flowchart.fun https://flowchart.fun is one open-source alternative
cush 4y ago
It's why I keep falling back to excalidraw over tools like mermaid with auto-layout. When I need to communicate an idea, often I really need to fuss with layout in order to get my point across, and having the control to drag things around is the only way to get there.
- kyriakos 4y ago
  Problem with non automated tools is that editing becomes a big issue since you have to reflow big parts of the diagram to make an addition. This is always my biggest issue with any diagram, the fact that they are evolving.
  - cush 4y ago
    Oh of course. This is the tradeoff. That said, over time a diagram's value will diminish regardless if you have auto-layout or not, since the codebase will always outpace documentation.

geodel 4y ago

Agree. To be honest, I'd find it useful if it were closed source but native installable tool that can convert text to diagram which then could be exported to image/pdf etc.

geraldwhen 4y ago
Yup. I use many paid, local tools. And because there’s no network service nonsense it’s not a problem at work.

sieabahlpark 4y ago

Would you believe me if I said this was just an ad and you wasted time on it? Just because HN isn't Reddit doesn't mean ads aren't thrown in with all the curated "content"

armchairhacker 4y ago
May be an ad but this is something I would actually use if it wasn't paid. Like other said, maybe it will inspire someone to take this and make an open-source version
- rch 4y ago
  If it was open source with a permissive license I'd start paying immediately, like I have with other projects. > if it wasn't paid. Maybe you intended to say 'if it wasn't closed', or similar.

abeppu 4y ago

Also, to me this was a reminder of the importance of context and assumptions in good communication. Never having heard of this org, I clicked the link for this post, saw the top-level blurb describing the project and assumed that a 'language' which generates diagrams from declarations would be something I could _run_. I clicked on the 'Getting Started' section and was annoyed that there was no 'Installation' section. I started from a context that inclined me to think of this as a stand-alone project which ought to have certain characteristics. I think the author of this page started with the assumption that of _course_ given their business and product, a 'language' for diagrams is only giving users access to something that maps on to whatever internal representation their tool already uses, and allows technically inclined users to work with text and fewer clicks. To them, the assumption seems to have been that readers will already be users of their product, and the assumption that the 'language' is built into their tool _and nowhere else_ is so far in the background that it's only somewhat obliquely addressed as the last question in a FAQ.

rvense 4y ago

Services as a software substitute...

Per_Bothner 4y ago

People seem to be missing that this is a preview, not a product (yet). And that: "When the language is more stable, we intend to open source D2. This will happen sometime in 2022."

stragies 4y ago
Perhaps then "Preview/Beta online service" should be part of the Headline/title.
- sophacles 4y ago
  Perhaps reading the article is a useful way to get information? If the headline contained everything everyone would conceivably want to know, it would be the article. It's not like the headline was misleading: "a new $tool" is a common phrase for software in alpha and beta stages.
  - stragies 4y ago
    So, to you, "Tool" or "Language" do NOT imply that you can use it independently of a specific online service? I mean, I agree, that "new" is marketing speak for "alpha/beta", but -to me- there is a difference between a "language/tool" and a "Single-Vendor-WebService". Or is my understanding of the semantics of the English language outdated?
    - sophacles 4y ago
      Not even outdated - just incorrect. There have been proprietary tools longer than there have been computers, it's the point of patents - grant a monopoly on your proprietary tool for X years in exchange for making it's workings public knowledge. Even patents aside, why wouldn't this D2 thing qualify as: COMPUTING a piece of software that carries out a particular function, typically creating or modifying another program. (source: google "define tool") While it isn't creating or modifying a program, I'd consider "parsing text in a specific syntax to create a diagram" more like a compiler than a site that just provides information or crud sites with some forms. I'm not entirely certain how where it runs affects it's tool status, but it certainly is a consideration to be made while evaluating it for any particular use case. (also from define tool: a thing used in an occupation or pursuit. and depending on where you stand on the "thingness" of software may also apply here, but that feels diversionary) I can think of quite a few single vendor languages - various IBM mainframe languages like JCL, K, matlab, multiple .Net and MS languages until recently, applescript, etc.

alixanderwang 4y ago

Those tools are mature 10-20+ year and we're just getting feedback for our little ol' alpha born ~yesterday. The limitations are temporary -- we are working on an offline, locally runnable experience (it's in the roadmap), but, alas, engineering bandwidth of a 6 person team. edit: I've updated the docs to make this clear

BarryMilo 4y ago
How is this different/better than, say, Mermaid?
- Aeolun 4y ago
  For one thing, the output looks lightyears better.
  - marktolson 4y ago
    You can fully modify styles in mermaid using CSS and style attributes. You can also load it as a JS library, attach events to chart components, programmatically render charts plus way more.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
abeppu 4y ago
Maybe starting this way makes sense. But when the project is trying to compare itself to others, it's only fair to compare based on what's true of the project currently vs what's aspirational. I would guess that for many potential users, the temporary limitations trump most of the stuff in the comparison portion of the FAQ, or the "current shortcomings" section. And the "Getting Started" section could also say "create an account and familiarize yourself with the existing terrastruct product" or whatever.

jacquesc 4y ago

Wow, thanks for the clarification. Totally missed this part. After having already evangelized this with my coworkers, I may need to take it back. If they made the core open and allowed users to use this language independently of their online service, there's still a ton of value they could have added with premium services on top of this. For writing the docs, sharing with teams, comments / versioning, etc. Visual figma type features essentially. A team bought into the specification would very likely pay for this. But it's hard to imagine it taking off being completely locked into their service. Ah well, a fine idea and looked pretty well executed. EDIT: maybe that's on their roadmap "When the language is more stable, we intend to open source D2. This will happen sometime in 2022.". Ok, back on board

bunsenhoneydew 4y ago
Looks like it will, just not yet: > INFO: It's currently in alpha. During this time, it's only housed on Terrastruct, which provides the most well-supported interface (IDE) for it. Once we have a stable v1, we'll release and continue development of it in open source and make local options available.

nine_k 4y ago

A simple check for an infrastructure tool (and a programming language is a king of infrastructure tools): does it have an open-source, unencumbered implementation? If not, I won't use it for anything serious.

ryukoposting 4y ago

Yikes. This looks like an amazing idea, but the online limitation kneecaps it. When I want to make diagrams graphically, I use diagrams.net. when I want to make diagrams from code, I use PIC. What else do people use? PIC works pretty well, but it has its limits and it's ancient.

anjanb 4y ago
could you share a link to PIC ?
- personalidea 4y ago
  Here is the Wikipedia article, maybe a good starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_(markup_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_(markup_language)
- tubs 4y ago
  https://pikchr.org/home/doc/trunk/homepage.md https://pikchr.org/home/doc/trunk/homepage.md An alternative implementation with good docs.
tubs 4y ago
https://pikchr.org/home/doc/trunk/homepage.md https://pikchr.org/home/doc/trunk/homepage.md Is a modern implementatiom that's pretty nice.

ww520 4y ago

Good to know. Thanks for the list of alternatives.

rapnie 4y ago

> Mermaid, Graphviz, PlantUML which are all open source, locally runnable, etc And there's C4 Model for Visualising Architecture [0] that has upcoming tool support, for instance Structurizr DSL [1]. It has an online editor [2] that can export to Mermaid, PlantUML and other formats. And has various open source repo's, like this Java codebase for the DSL itself [3]. [0] https://c4model.com/ https://c4model.com/ [1] https://structurizr.com/help/dsl https://structurizr.com/help/dsl [2] https://structurizr.com/dsl https://structurizr.com/dsl [3] https://github.com/structurizr/dsl https://github.com/structurizr/dsl