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Telegram is asking German users when to share information with law enforcement
Just went out to german users (translated with deepl):
We, the Telegram team, ask you to give us your opinion on how the data of German Telegram users may (or may not) be shared with German authorities, including the German police (BKA).
Telegram never shares information about your chats or contacts with third parties, including government agencies.
Nevertheless, to prevent misuse of our platform by terrorist groups, our current privacy policy since 2018 allows us to disclose IP addresses and phone numbers of terrorist suspects upon government request backed by a court order.
We're conducting this poll to find out if our German users support our current privacy policy or if they want to reduce or increase the number of cases where Telegram can potentially share data with authorities. We are providing three options to choose from.
OPTION 1: No changes. Telegram may continue to share IP addresses and phone numbers of terror suspects only based on a court decision. This option is already included in Telegram's current privacy policy.
OPTION 2: Upon request by German police authorities, Telegram may disclose IP addresses and phone numbers of suspects of serious crimes, even if not supported by a court decision. This option, if approved, would be completely new for Telegram and therefore requires a change to our privacy policy for users from Germany.
OPTION 3: Under no circumstances may Telegram share user information, including IP addresses and phone numbers of terror suspects. If this option is supported, Telegram will change its data structure and privacy policy for users from Germany.
Only users registered with German phone numbers can participate in the survey below. We have informed all Telegram users in Germany about this survey. The poll will remain open until September 5, 12:00 pm German time (UTC+2).
(Together with an attached poll)
Original: https://imgur.com/a/oHdxchb
- traspler 4y agoIs there anything special going on in Germany atm to prompt this? I‘m slighlty confused why they would do such a poll…
- neverrroot 4y agoYes, a lot of pressure from the leftist government. Many channels opposing the German Covid policy (one of a kind in Europe, very strict) are to be found in Telegram. As always, there is also some German right in Telegram. The government is officially after them, but the media/government has been painting all those opposing the Covid measures as right, so… it’s tricky.
- bowsamic 4y ago> (one of a kind in Europe, very strict) This is wrong. The German COVID policy is not strict at all. There is a 5 day isolation if you test positive, and you usually have to wear a mask on public transport. That's literally it.
- neverrroot 4y agoCompare it for the whole of 2022. Also still in Germany, some people can/will lose their job if they don’t take the jab. Now I’m not affected by this, but my sister was. She decided to move country instead of getting vaccinated again.
- bowsamic 4y ago> Compare it for the whole of 2022 Why should I do that?
- BurningPenguin 4y ago> but the media/government has been painting all those opposing the Covid measures as right Idk about you, but waving flags of the German Reich, following known Neo-Nazis and attending events of far-right organizations, while spreading lies and slogans that originate from right-wing conspiracy theorists, seems kinda right-wingy to me.
- neverrroot 4y agoNever claim there are no such people. But to try to paint a picture as e.g. most of mainstream media did and some still do, that only such kind of people protest the measures etc. is not correct.
- mr_mitm 4y agoI remember lots of documentations on TV and interviews with social scientists that emphasize that the Covid protests in Germany are weirdly originating from a very broad spectrum, with lots of alternative and esoteric groups, which aren't right wing at all. The Verfassungsschutz even had to invent a new category: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/verfassungsschutz-querdenker-103.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/verfassungsschutz-querdenke... Some examples of mainstream media that emphasize the heterogeneous nature of these protests: https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/esoterik-impfgegner-corona-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/esoterik-impfgegner-c... https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/corona-demonstrationen-ein-dialog-ist-dann-nicht-mehr-moeglich-a-1db7a796-988a-42ed-a922-1c4861aacf37 https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/corona-demonstrat... https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/corona-demos-zwischen-hippies-und-neonazis-1.5015129 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/corona-demos-zwischen-hi... https://www.rnd.de/panorama/esoteriker-auf-corona-demos-tanzende-hippies-neben-rechtsextremen-und-verschworungstheoretikern-was-will-sie-esoterikszene-QMRYIWRQLNCP5N5GGWMK7V53LM.html https://www.rnd.de/panorama/esoteriker-auf-corona-demos-tanz... https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/corona-proteste-querdenker-im-suedwesten-haben-linke-wurzeln-17647165.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/corona-proteste-q... So I don't think your assessment is fair.
- cabirum 4y agoGermany repeatedly threanened to ban or remove Telegram from app stores if they ignore requests to delete channels or to provide some data. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/germany-telegram-covid/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/germany-tel...
- londons_explore 4y agoIf I were in telegrams position, I would move this power to 'moderators' rather like Reddit. Then tell the government that if they want to use a court order to remove content, they need to request that the independent moderators of the channel do it.
- detaro 4y agoWhy would any court or government care about Telegram/Reddit saying that?
- londons_explore 4y agoWell they would redesign systems so that they don't have any visibility into message or channel contents, and if they are notified of a channel with bad content, they would just say 'contact the moderator of the channel'. Rather like ISP's today aren't responsible for the web pages they deliver - the HTTPS encryption means they couldn't scan or block them even if they wanted to.
- j16sdiz 4y agoBut then they will make it illegal to provide these services and jail the telegram team instead.
- 7steps2much 4y ago> Rather like ISP's today aren't responsible for the web pages they deliver - the HTTPS encryption means they couldn't scan or block them even if they wanted to. ISP's can be required to in fact not deliver certain webpages, usually for copyright reasons. If Telegram redesigns its system like you suggested the courts may just shift to: Do not broadcast, transmit or make available the channel with the ID XYZ. The channel might not be deleted of course, but if it's no longer accessible that would be essentially the same.
- funnym0nk3y 4y agoTelegram is considered a platform for people, which do not respect the basic values of democracy like groups far right expressing xenophobia and groups which think (and express loudly) of the COVID measures as repression by some elite against the common citizen. Most of them whish for a autoritarian government. Groups which act against the constitution are observed by the Verfassungsschutz, an authority to protect the democracy and constitution in Germany. On telegram those extreme thoughts can be shared whithin their bubble which catalysts them. I don't know if this is the majority of users of Telegram (probably not), but it is strongly associated with them. Those are the things I gathered by lightly consuming news. Maybe this is some kind of preparation for winter, where COVID cases are expected to rise in combination with very high energy prices.
- dgellow 4y agoThe „funny“ thing is that they discuss anti-democratic topics in public, open groups and channels. They are for the vast majority completely technologically illiterate and somehow associate Telegram with secrecy. But they are in fact publicly broadcasting their wishes to reverse authorities. Any investigators can just join a group and see almost everything they are planning out loud.
- neverrroot 4y agoOn the surface you are correct, this is especially the painted picture by the mass media and at least partially by the government (who also sought banning Telegram entirely in Germany). If you go deeper, you get to see that also a lot of human rights activists and NGOs are using it. Have been using Telegram since 2015, and in the meantime, most of my IT buddies use it and/or Signal.
- formerly_proven 4y agoWith the invasion of Ukraine it seems like 95 % of the information out of Ukraine flows through Telegram (I'm not a user myself but the watermark and screenshots of the app are everywhere). Telegram also has some ~700 million monthly active users - it seems unlikely to me that there are even 700 million alt-right people in the entire world.
- z02d 4y agoYes, see the German article: Gouvernment and Developer conflict about free speech, cyber bullying,, ... . https://www.golem.de/news/an-die-polizei-telegram-bittet-nutzer-um-meinung-zu-datenuebermittlung-2208-167959.html https://www.golem.de/news/an-die-polizei-telegram-bittet-nut...
- traspler 4y agoThanks a lot! This is what I was looking for.
- hnbad 4y agoNote that they didn't provide options for "with a warrant" and "without a warrant", they only provided options for "with a warrant but only for suspected terrorism" and "for any serious crime but without a warrant". I suspect some users would vote for "any serious crime with a warrant" but will now vote for option 1 because they still want a warrant.
- pjio 4y agoYou're right, there is no option for "serious crime but only with warrant". Option 1 is more strict in both ways. Only Terrorism (which is more serious than "just" crime) and even then only with a warrant. Option 2 is unacceptable (IMO). "serious crime" is too ambiguous and without a warrant prone to misuse.
- Sakos 4y agoOption 2 is clearly the "but the children!" solution which will fuck us all over.
- danhor 4y agoThe first option is leading right now so that's probably correct. In general germans are pretty trusting of the justice system, so I'd expect "serious crime with warrant" to win (at least I'd vote for it).
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- archi42 4y agoI think this is very important: The poll is intended to be able to claim that their users want as little cooperation as possible. And giving the "((1+2)/2). any serious crime but WITH a warrant" option would have undermined that, so they manipulate the poll. At least that's what I'm reading into this. Picking option #2 was my personal "f..k y.." to them for this manipulation; not that it changes anything. (I really don't want to have a company share info without a warrant, but when a court warrant is issued they should comply).
- izzytcp 4y agoHi, German here. How about not storing any information at all? Nothing to give, problem solved. Just like Signal. I seriously don’t understand why people use Telegram instead of Signal. Any reason! The app doesn’t solve any privacy problem, default chats are unencrypted, keeps personal info. App should be dead already or turned into a dating app because it’s clearly not seriously privacy fucused.
- neverrroot 4y agoChannels, Groups, it’s overall way better. But true, per default not as secure. Supports secure chats, that are secure.
- izzytcp 4y agoAre channels and groups e2ee?
- endless1234 4y agoNo. Is discord, reddit, hacker news e2ee? No, but they are still products people want to use.
- croes 4y agoDo you use discord, reddit, hacker news for private communication? BTW reddit and Hackernews are E2EE, it's just that one E is public.
- wruza 4y agoWhat is your HN key fingerprint? I’d like to compare it to know if our messaging is secure.
- croes 4y agoI'm not messaging to you but to HN via E2E https connection. You can't read that messages as they are transported, you can read them afterwards because HN makes them public not because my message wasn't send encrypted.
- dgellow 4y agoCan others confirm? I’m a Telegram user, located in Germany, with a German phone number and didn’t receive such a message.
- 16890c 4y agoConfirmed.
- mtmail 4y agoI can confirm. After selecting an answer the poll even shows percentages.
- mlatu 4y agomaybe burried by the messages directly after that one? at least for me after the poll there are two messages about animated emoji
- tcfhgj 4y agome neither
- xii23 4y agoconfirmed also, got it on my two phones
- greatgib 4y agoSadly I think that it is the slippery slope for Telegram. Instead of the spirit of privacy first, they start to concede little by little for commercial interests. First it is just the IP and phone number. Then, it will be extended to contacts. Because, why not, that can be useful also for "terrorist investigations". Then it will be chat history,because it makes sense, the police has a warrant... And telegram is technically able to... Also, clever poll tactic to put the option 1 as looking 'moderate' in front of other extreme options. Also, for the fighting "terrorism" argument, just remember that we are all terrorists for Russia, and that even in Europe (Germany, France, ...), A lot of high ranking gov and police officials were found guilty of corruption or abusing the system for their own interests!
- pizza234 4y agoThe majority is currently for a court order, which doesn't indicate a slippery slope. If they wanted to be shady, they wouldn't have made a poll at all, which also implies the expectation of discussion around the topic.
- red_trumpet 4y agoWhat do you mean by "for commercial interests"?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- afiori 4y agoIn part I am curious about how these requests are made; I would expect that the 2 most common kind of request are from law enforcement following public channels/groups, from individual reports of private conversations, and from previous investigations. That is I imagine requests would be in the shape of "here is a username give us IP and phone number". It is also relevant to know whether German courts can order to collect this information, it is also relevant that German courts apply German jurisdiction universally (an example there are African war lords convicted of war crimes that have no relation to Germany or German citizens). Personally I would prefer privacy first companies to focus on lobbying the idea that these kind of court orders are to be used sparingly rather than enter an adversarial arm race with regulators.
- ginnungagap 4y agoWhere are German users supposed to have received this message? I'm not German but my telegram account is registered with a German number and I haven't received anything
- r6203 4y agoI've received the message an hour ago.
- felurx 4y agoVia the chat labeled "Telegram" with the verification mark, the one you also get info about new features from when there's an update.
- tcfhgj 4y agoI don't know why, but the last info I got there was "Telegram surpassed 500 (https://t.me/durov/147 https://t.me/durov/147) million active users. " from more than a year ago, and a few login codes
- kurupt213 4y agoI don’t think the companies sharing the info is wrong. I think sealed warrants and sealed indictments are wrong. The accused/suspected should have a chance to fight to maintain privacy. At a minimum, users should be informed that their info was shared with government.
- londons_explore 4y agoI wonder if such 'polls' would work to gate all major changes to a popular app? Eg. Would users have been more accepting of YouTube removing the dislike button if the proposal had won a user poll?
- ElCheapo 4y agoIf a company stores data about you, they WILL give it ALL to law enforcement. How to avoid this? Don't store any data, as simple as that. Use p2p E2EE services. The server will only orchestrate between connections but no actual data will pass through it, giving the cops absolutely nothing except connection logs! Sure, they can still see when you connected and who you requested to talk with, but there are many mitigations and (unless they actively sniff you) they won't even have a byte of data you actually sent to that person
- idaseing 4y agoLots of people here in Germany use Telegram for their purchases of substances (a serious crime here) because they consider it safe. If there's a danger of Telegram sharing their data with the police, the app is no longer safe. If it it's no longer safe for one thing, people won't use it for anything.
- lausbub 4y agoSource? I use Telegram as a normal messenger because it has a good UI.
- xii23 4y agoAnecdotally, I live in Germany and use it for that almost exclusively, and know a couple of coworkers who also use Telegram like this.
- wruza 4y agofor their purchases of substances Purchases are where the sales at. Strange that these sellers aren’t using more secure messengers. I believe that illegal activity is a good litmus test for a messenger, much better than forum theories or headlines. If for some reason drug dealers stay away from particular apps, so should you.
- theduster 4y ago
- theduster 4y ago
- eikaramba 4y agoCurrent stats as of 30.08.22 14:22 are (1,166,650 votes): 41% OPTION 1: No changes. Telegram may continue to share IP addresses and phone numbers of terror suspects only based on a court decision 21% OPTION 2: Upon request by German police authorities, Telegram may disclose IP addresses and phone numbers of suspects of serious crimes, even if not supported by a court decision. 34% OPTION 3: Under no circumstances may Telegram share user information, including IP addresses and phone numbers of terror suspects. 4% No opinion / I am not from Germany
- GekkePrutser 4y agoThat's too bad. I was hoping Germans would massively vote option 3. They are a privacy conscious people after all. And that option would bring it in line with Signal (with the unfortunate difference that not all chats are encrypted by default)
- zelphirkalt 4y ago> They are a privacy conscious people after all. No, sorry, we are not. Not by a long shot. Most people here do not have a good understanding of these issues and "just want to live their life", meaning continue to be uninformed, as long as it is convenient. It is quite difficult to even get people to try Signal or other option, to really give it a chance, because they are so prone to the network effect. They install all kinds of shit apps on their phones, but one more privacy friendly chat app? Nahhhh ...
- bigbacaloa 4y agoThe categorical statement "Telegram never shares information about your chats or contacts with third parties, including government agencies" is simply dishonest. The word "never" is incorrect.
- NayamAmarshe 4y agoThey don't. When they do, they only share IP Address and Phone number and only when it's a court order. Even FBI's leaked document confirmed this.
- throwaway290 4y agoPSA: Just a friendly reminder that definition of "terror" tends to differ wildly from government to government.
- ivan_gammel 4y agoI’m registered with German phone number, but did not receive it. Now it’s interesting which country do they think I’m in and what kind of privacy I can expect based on that.
- theduster 4y ago
- scary-size 4y agoThe (current) results sadden me: 1.26 mio. votes; Option 1 (41%), Option 2 (21%), Option 3 (34%), Option 4 (4%).
- GekkePrutser 4y agoYeah I would have expected more getting the Germans as well.
- atemerev 4y agoTelegram is not a privacy-focused messenger. It is not a messenger at all, it is a dialog-based development platform, like WeChat. Most of its value is in public channels and groups, and bots. It is dead simple to build a useful Telegram bot; good luck doing this on Signal. Wire and Threema are serious privacy-focused messengers. They have all things necessary for good privacy: full E2E, pseudonymous IDs not linked to phone numbers, multiple accounts, ephemeral accounts, side-channel authentication, etc. Signal is something in between. It is not enough for state of the art privacy (as it is linked to phone numbers which are really tightly coupled to real-world identities), and it doesn’t provide a lot of features to be a good development platform. I think it is stuck in its current state, and no longer evolving.
- tcfhgj 4y ago> Wire and Threema are serious privacy-focused messengers. They have all things necessary for good privacy: full E2E, pseudonymous IDs not linked to phone numbers, multiple accounts, ephemeral accounts, side-channel authentication, etc. Matrix offers all that, and bots and public channels
- atemerev 4y agoMatrix is good, too. It is not polished enough yet, and they need to work on content discovery, but otherwise I like them, too.
- deepstack 4y agoI think when people compare Matrix/Element a bit differently than all others. It is federated chat client (like email), that along is something worth considering for people who wants to keep their message and communication channel open. All the other chat program, such as What's App, Signal, Wire all belong in the same universe much like AOL back then. Signal actually discourage others from running their own servers. Matrix allows us to have our own domain and address, which is forever ours. If we don't like the provider that is running our server, we can just start our own (just like email). For that along I would rather support a version of Element.io/Matrix.org than another other programs.
- loceng 4y agoWhat are the odds the founders/developers of Telegram are being coerced towards this based on a possibility of evidence of illegal activities they may have done/do actively in their life? The odds certainly aren't zero?
- tcfhgj 4y agoI don't think I was asked despite having a German IP and phone number
- dark-star 4y agoI like how they are actually asking users, and not only "privacy-advocats" (who obviously push for option 3) or similar vocal subgroups. Currently the poll stands at: * OPTION 1: 40% * OPTION 2: 21% * OPTION 3: 35% * (no opinion): 4% with 1.3 million votes so far. I like the outcome (personally, I don't think the "store nothing" approach of OPTION 3 is really necessary), although the 21% that push for even less privacy are a bit concerning
- suction 4y ago
- golemotron 4y agoAsking your users is cute, but at the end of the day, when you're served with a government request, the government prevails.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- 752963e64 4y ago
- rhwHRW 4y agodon't share info, it might sound good now (stopping terror attacks etc) but it will snowball into oppressive governments tracking down political 'criminals'. the police will have to find another way to catch terroists.