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Okay but in 12-TET, there are only 12 notes. D# and E♭ are the same note, because there is only one note between D and E. On paper and in practice, the note bet
by mort96 4y ago
Okay but in 12-TET, there are only 12 notes. D# and E♭ are the same note, because there is only one note between D and E. On paper and in practice, the note between D and E is the same whether you write it as D# or as E♭. A piano doesn't know how the note is written in the sheet music.
EDIT:to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with most of what you're saying. 12-TET can't represent the desirable perfect fractions, and in a system which can (such as a just intonation system), the starting point does matter. And maybe a vocalist or a violinist would play D# and E♭ subtly differently, I don't know. My main point is just that in a whole lot of contexts, such as when playing a piano, there is no difference between the notes. Your comment made it look like there's always a difference between theory and practice which makes D# and E♭ different in practice, when that's often not the case. We do use 12-TET in practice.
- aikinai 4y agoA piano doesn’t know the difference and can’t differentiate them (on the fly), but a violinist certainly can and does. Most instruments have real time manual control over intonation and skilled musicians will bend pitch to best meet the current key and context.
- mort96 4y agoRight, I made an edit which accounts for that while you wrote your comment. It's an important detail.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- xattt 4y agoWould there be a specific notation for the merry-middle in-between note (D# and E)?
- wizofaus 4y agoYou mean D "three quarter" sharp? The name is a bit illogical because it's really "a sharp and a half", or "sharpened three quarters of a tone". The usual representation looks like a sharp with three vertical bars, and there's a unicode symbol for it (tried to cut and paste but no luck). Microtonality is really annoying on a piano though. As it happens I've been trying to work out what exact intervals are used for the two-chord leitmotif heard in "The Sandman" series, I'm not sure if they're regular microtones or just some sort of eerie detuning (surprisingly I can't find any discussion of it online either).
- palimpsests 4y agothe sandman (*) intervals aren’t coming from microtonal tuning… it’s dynamically modulated detuning in equal temperament, just as you say. it’s an extremely common type of modulation, especially if there are synthesizers involved. * what an incredible show!
- xattt 4y agoI meant to ask regarding D-sharp and E-flat, but a typo led me to learn about microtonality. Bravo and thank you!
- criddell 4y agoIs a D-sharp/E-flat played on a piano or guitar closer to D-sharp or E-flat on the violin?
- bombela 4y agoIt's in the middle between the two!
- coldtea 4y agoCould also be exactly the same as "the two", as violinists would also often just play those two at the traditional "piano" pitch, when playing alonside a piano and other such instruments.
- criddell 4y agoIt would be interesting to have an electronic keyboard that watches what you are playing and decides when you press the D-sharp/E-flat key, which note it should play.
- rawling 4y agoI'm sure I've see on here something that does not just that, but also remembers what it just did so when you play your next notes it doesn't jump to a different tuning.
- aikinai 4y agoThere are also digital keyboards that let you bend pitch after you hit a note by shifting the pressure similar to a violin.
- topaz0 4y agoSome old style organs that are not "well-tempered" have split keys for some notes, so that you can choose D# vs Eb (for example), depending what else is going on.
- elif 4y agoSorry but as a guitarist this just sounds like "violinists miss the half-step notes on purpose" Which is okay. I like to bend notes too, but just call it what it is.
- HPsquared 4y agoThat's interesting, so they can get closer to "just intonation" then? I assume it all breaks down if they need to play alongside a keyboard (or fretted) instrument.
- JasonFruit 4y agoWe actually tend to approach Pythagorean tuning, according to the Catgut Acoustical Society.
- jayknight 4y agoViolins and family(typically) tune their instruments with 3/2 just fifths. You get the A (440) from the oboe and tune the rest of your strings with perfect just fifths. That means sometimes the cellos' C strings will be noticably too low in some circumstances so you'll see them finger an "open C" just above the nut to make it sound right.
- dbalatero 4y agoI actually tune my C string slightly sharp for this reason!
- JumpCrisscross 4y agoHuh, is that why an open C on a viola always buzzed wrong?
- wizofaus 4y agoIt's 2% of a semitone off by my understanding. I thought I had pretty good ears but I really doubt I could pick that. Open strings do often stick out in general on string instruments though, for a combination of reasons, lack of vibrato and ability to micro-adjust tuning presumably being the main ones (but even the tone is different, I assume based on the difference between having one end fixed by a soft fleshy substance vs the wooden nut).
- palimpsests 4y agothe last reason you gave is exactly why open strings sound different. check out zero-fret guitars.
- kimi 4y ago...because if you are playing with a piano, and you play those intervals "right", they will be out of tune.
- progrus 4y agoJust consider it technical debt.
- SkyBelow 4y agoFor the random piano, you are right, there is no difference. For a paino being used to play a very specific piece, the tuning might be slightly different depending if the intended song is using D# or E♭, depending upon the key of the song. Though in such a case the piano might be tuned using a different standard that better fits the song. One more extreme example is two pianos tuned to 12-TET, but one is half off. They are made to be played together by two closely in sync pianists for a few more complex songs that need 24 steps between octaves. Overall I do find the system confusing enough to wonder if a better one won't one day catch on. And it might already have, I know some musicians who can't read sheet music but play by chords. It seems more limited in the level of detail you can specify, but works plenty well for the songs they want to play.
- coldtea 4y ago>For a paino being used to play a very specific piece That would something that only happens very rarely, like for just 1/10000th the pianos people will encounter in their lives...
- palimpsests 4y agolikely 1/100,000 at most. more likely 1/1,000,000
- pclmulqdq 4y agoI worked as a harpsichord tuner during college, and this kind of tuning was generally only used when only string instruments were involved. Once a single instrument with holes, valves, or frets is involved, you have to use equal temperament. Almost nobody does specialty tuning.
- offByJuan 4y agoI think to understand the difference between the two notes is context. Like the word ‘read’. The same word is pronounced different according to context. ‘I read the book’ vs ‘Did you read the book’. When you read music you expect a e flat not a d sharp and vise versa
- zarzavat 4y agoAs a life long string player I can tell you that there is no difference between E flat and D sharp. String players usually play with other instruments that are not so tuneable. Good intonation means playing in tune with the other players, not playing according to mathematics. If you don't have good intonation then you hide it with vibrato. Flats and sharps don't enter into consideration. The one exception is harmonics which are based upon integer ratios rather than 12-TET.
- zarzavat 4y agoI can't edit my comment above but I want to clarify: I don't mean to say that string players always play in 12-TET. If you're playing a C in C major and I'm playing a G, it may sound best if my G is close to a perfect fifth from your C in just intonation. This is why string sections often sound so sickly sweet, like A Capella. On the other hand, if you are playing a C and a G on the piano, and I'm also playing a G, then it will sound best if I play the same G as you in 12-TET. If I were to play the "correct" G against your "wrong" G, it would sound out of tune. Context is everything. As you may notice, G doesn't have a sharp or a flat in C major! If string players relied upon accidentals to tell them how to tune a particular note, they would be out of luck seven twelfths of the time. That process of adjustment: called intonation, happens after resolving which pitch class I want to play. It's not something that an arranger can control through the use of enharmonic spelling, but it doesn't stop them from trying!