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Here in Germany, there was recently a leak in the news. It said that a single LED sign consumes as much energy as 10 single households[0]. Of course, the compan

Here in Germany, there was recently a leak in the news. It said that a single LED sign consumes as much energy as 10 single households[0]. Of course, the companies don't want to give any official information. That is pretty high for no real value for society in my opinion... [0] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/led-reklametafeln-hoher-stromverbrauch-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/led-reklame...

Beltiras 4y ago
I'm quite sure brand advertisers will not concur.
- malermeister 4y ago
  And they can go fuck off if they don't. We're in a crisis and they want to waste energy we might need for heating households to manipulate people into buying shit they don't need? That's not exactly a position that'll get them a lot of sympathy.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    > to manipulate people into buying shit they don't need? This is encouraged by our system, switching off screens at night won't change it. Attack the root cause not the very last symptom
    - malermeister 4y ago
      Attack it on all fronts.
    - freilanzer 4y ago
      Why not both? Energy can be saved here that is needlessly wasted.
      - lm28469 4y ago
        It barely delays the inevitable, it's less than a drop in the bucket, everything you gain there will be instantly counteracted 10 fold somewhere else because we don't want to face reality. But sure, let's stop using plastic straws and switch off our routers at night while we continue absolutely ravaging this planet
        freilanzer 4y ago
        This is part of "ravaging our planet". And if it will be counteracted then everything is useless anyway.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  Of course, this is why the law is needed.
- phartenfeller 4y ago
  Of course. Same with tobacco and oil companies working against transparency for smoke health risks and climate change.
  - loonster 4y ago
    A large portion of the advertising is to get people to switch brands. A smaller portion is to get new customers. Banning advertisement increases the profits for the already established brands (for at least the short term).
    - ThalesX 4y ago
      Like higher quality / cheaper prices wouldn't spread by word of mouth... if anything advertising behemots are keeping actually improved products out of the spotlight by selling us whatever pays most in advertising costs, regardless of externalities.
    - andrepd 4y ago
      I find that hard to believe, since most advertising is done by bigger brands.
morsch 4y ago
Average power usage for a 1 person household in Germany is 1300 kwh/year (roughly, numbers vary, but not to a degree that it matters). That's about 150W sustained. So 1500W for a large sign, that's like 150 high power LED light bulbs, I guess that checks out. Anything that reduces ads in the public sphere is fine by me.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  Everyone lauds LEDs for being super energy efficient, but the reality is that they really aren't. It's just that they are being compared to even worse light sources that were so bad at efficiency it's hard to really grasp how much they sucked.
  - suction 4y ago
  - sexy_panda 4y ago
    Is there a more efficient way of producing light? Because I don't know of any.
    - avidiax 4y ago
      The one that's the most neglected is natural lighting. Light pipes, solar collectors, and microprism window treatments are all available. The second thing is white paint. You need less outdoor lighting if the built environment absorbs less light.
      - wikfwikf 4y ago
        This does not solve the problem of filling city centers with huge company logos, adverts, signs for casinos or night clubs.
      - tremon 4y ago
        You're going to need very long light pipes to use natural lighting for your digital signage at night. Are you really sure that's a better option?
sidkshatriya 4y ago
> That is pretty high for no real value for society in my opinion... There is a widespread belief that Advertising serves no purpose to humanity. Advertising is like anything in life: In high doses it is harmful. In lower doses it is useful. If there are regulators in your country that prevent advertisers from making false claims, even better. Advertising has helped me hone onto products and services in my whole life that I've found useful. Many times I would have not been able to find the product or service if it were not for that advertisement. [You could claim that I was "brainwashed" into buying that product but that could be applied to any interaction in life. For example, if my spouse convinced me to do something, it usually means the logic was sound and it is highly unlikely that I was brainwashed to do her bidding]. No one likes being aggressively marketed to. No one likes being duped. But there is a space for advertising that is gentler, honest and educational. Think of advertising as a way of companies to say "Hey! here's something we're proud of -- please have a look. By selling to you, the customer, we can make a profit and you can get the benefit from our product". Advertising can be a win-win. Advertising can allow manufacturing at scale. It has helped bring about many the marvels of technology that would have cost millions of dollars a few decades ago to be just a few hundred (e.g. our laptops that are more powerful than supercomputers of of the 1990s). Without advertising many companies may not have reached the sales volume to keep bringing down costs year after year. I could go on. Adverting is useful. Bad actors must be weeded out. However, Advertising in itself is useful.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  > There is a widespread belief that advertising serves no purpose to humanity. This is highly political and that 'belief' is indeed often ideological. Free flow of information and awareness of products and services on offer is an important aspect of an open society and free market economics.
  - r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
    And beliefs that an open society, free flow of information and free market economics are good things are of course highly political and strongly ideological. They are just largely uncontested (at least amongst the types of people who read hn)
sorenjan 4y ago
They can also be RF noise nightmares because of the PWM they do.
mlindner 4y ago
What's the alternative with some high power lights aimed at a non-LED sign? I'd expect for similar brightness the power usage is going to be almost the same. Maybe even more because you're relying on reflected light rather than emitted light.

Beltiras 4y ago

I'm quite sure brand advertisers will not concur.

malermeister 4y ago
And they can go fuck off if they don't. We're in a crisis and they want to waste energy we might need for heating households to manipulate people into buying shit they don't need? That's not exactly a position that'll get them a lot of sympathy.
- lm28469 4y ago
  > to manipulate people into buying shit they don't need? This is encouraged by our system, switching off screens at night won't change it. Attack the root cause not the very last symptom
  - malermeister 4y ago
    Attack it on all fronts.
  - freilanzer 4y ago
    Why not both? Energy can be saved here that is needlessly wasted.
    - lm28469 4y ago
      It barely delays the inevitable, it's less than a drop in the bucket, everything you gain there will be instantly counteracted 10 fold somewhere else because we don't want to face reality. But sure, let's stop using plastic straws and switch off our routers at night while we continue absolutely ravaging this planet
      - freilanzer 4y ago
        This is part of "ravaging our planet". And if it will be counteracted then everything is useless anyway.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
Of course, this is why the law is needed.
phartenfeller 4y ago
Of course. Same with tobacco and oil companies working against transparency for smoke health risks and climate change.
- loonster 4y ago
  A large portion of the advertising is to get people to switch brands. A smaller portion is to get new customers. Banning advertisement increases the profits for the already established brands (for at least the short term).
  - ThalesX 4y ago
    Like higher quality / cheaper prices wouldn't spread by word of mouth... if anything advertising behemots are keeping actually improved products out of the spotlight by selling us whatever pays most in advertising costs, regardless of externalities.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    I find that hard to believe, since most advertising is done by bigger brands.

morsch 4y ago

Average power usage for a 1 person household in Germany is 1300 kwh/year (roughly, numbers vary, but not to a degree that it matters). That's about 150W sustained. So 1500W for a large sign, that's like 150 high power LED light bulbs, I guess that checks out. Anything that reduces ads in the public sphere is fine by me.

moffkalast 4y ago
Everyone lauds LEDs for being super energy efficient, but the reality is that they really aren't. It's just that they are being compared to even worse light sources that were so bad at efficiency it's hard to really grasp how much they sucked.
- suction 4y ago
- sexy_panda 4y ago
  Is there a more efficient way of producing light? Because I don't know of any.
  - avidiax 4y ago
    The one that's the most neglected is natural lighting. Light pipes, solar collectors, and microprism window treatments are all available. The second thing is white paint. You need less outdoor lighting if the built environment absorbs less light.
    - wikfwikf 4y ago
      This does not solve the problem of filling city centers with huge company logos, adverts, signs for casinos or night clubs.
    - tremon 4y ago
      You're going to need very long light pipes to use natural lighting for your digital signage at night. Are you really sure that's a better option?

sidkshatriya 4y ago

> That is pretty high for no real value for society in my opinion... There is a widespread belief that Advertising serves no purpose to humanity. Advertising is like anything in life: In high doses it is harmful. In lower doses it is useful. If there are regulators in your country that prevent advertisers from making false claims, even better. Advertising has helped me hone onto products and services in my whole life that I've found useful. Many times I would have not been able to find the product or service if it were not for that advertisement. [You could claim that I was "brainwashed" into buying that product but that could be applied to any interaction in life. For example, if my spouse convinced me to do something, it usually means the logic was sound and it is highly unlikely that I was brainwashed to do her bidding]. No one likes being aggressively marketed to. No one likes being duped. But there is a space for advertising that is gentler, honest and educational. Think of advertising as a way of companies to say "Hey! here's something we're proud of -- please have a look. By selling to you, the customer, we can make a profit and you can get the benefit from our product". Advertising can be a win-win. Advertising can allow manufacturing at scale. It has helped bring about many the marvels of technology that would have cost millions of dollars a few decades ago to be just a few hundred (e.g. our laptops that are more powerful than supercomputers of of the 1990s). Without advertising many companies may not have reached the sales volume to keep bringing down costs year after year. I could go on. Adverting is useful. Bad actors must be weeded out. However, Advertising in itself is useful.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
> There is a widespread belief that advertising serves no purpose to humanity. This is highly political and that 'belief' is indeed often ideological. Free flow of information and awareness of products and services on offer is an important aspect of an open society and free market economics.
- r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
  And beliefs that an open society, free flow of information and free market economics are good things are of course highly political and strongly ideological. They are just largely uncontested (at least amongst the types of people who read hn)

sorenjan 4y ago

They can also be RF noise nightmares because of the PWM they do.

mlindner 4y ago

What's the alternative with some high power lights aimed at a non-LED sign? I'd expect for similar brightness the power usage is going to be almost the same. Maybe even more because you're relying on reflected light rather than emitted light.