18 ms·

Subscriptions are out, refills are in

152 points by bluepnume 4y ago

IceMetalPunk 4y ago
I have an Amazon Prime subscription. I don't know why, or when I signed up for it. This is the second time it's happened, so I gave up and kept it. I do order from Amazon enough that it matters, I guess. It's scummy as hell, but effective. I'd much prefer a model like the one mentioned in this article.
- bluepnume 4y ago
  Yeah, with Amazon, it's always a step during the checkout, with a very small opt-out button. And it often advertizes itself as being more about free shipping than setting up a prime subscription. Pretty easy to miss!
  - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
    You know, I've seen that, but I guess I didn't pay much attention and assumed it was opt-in. Silly me for thinking Amazon would have the tiniest shred of ethics in their functional design.
    - JamesBarney 4y ago
      Yeah it's scammy as hell. But it's also a really great deal 14.99/month for free faster shipping, books, movies, music, etc...
      - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
        I mean, if you use all that, sure. I don't do Prime books, the only media I watch on Prime is Legend of Vox Machina, I don't use Prime music, etc. So I'm really just paying $14.99/month for one TV show and faster shipping when I do order a package. I guess that's still not too bad, but it still feels gross that I was tricked into signing up for it, twice.
      - kgermino 4y ago
        It’s not a great deal if you don’t use it. I don’t use Prime’s content features and the handful of Amazon orders I make a year usually get free shipping anyway. I’ve definitely accidentally signed up for Prime and the confusing screen is always a reminder that I should try buying my [whatever] elsewhere. Sometimes it works and I find an alternative, sometimes I find the opt out button and finish my purchase. But their scummy tactics have probably pushed a few $k in annual purchases off Amazon for me.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Prime is up to $15 a month? Holy @#$@#$ I may have to cancel, the shipping isn't worth that much ...
        nephanth 4y ago
        They raised the price earlier this year. I cancelled immediately upon receiving the email about that raise, but I hear they didn't lose a lot of clients that way
        bombcar 4y ago
        Yeah for some reason $180 a year doesn’t hit me as hard as $15 a month.
        nephanth 4y ago
        That's interesting, you'd think the bigger number hits harder
        brewdad 4y ago
        You can still get free shipping if you spend $35 (sometimes $25). I've found that I've really cut back on the number of stupid purchases I used to make because "it's only $5 and it'll be here tomorrow".
    - lupire 4y ago
      It's not really "opt". There are two buttons, and the huge bright one is "Yes" or something (constantly changing), referring to whatever crap (Prime, credit card, rush shipping) thet are pushing in the big interstitial ads you are ignoring. Amazon isn't worth the bother anymore. You can almost anything worthwhile somewhere else better. Amazon was founded and run by proud Objectivists, so the ethics they have might not match yours.
      - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
        Where can I get stuff from better? Most big-box stores have horrible stock and their online systems are pretty lackluster, including shipping times. I don't use Amazon to find what I want to buy - I know what I want to buy (for the most part) before I even begin to look at Amazon. Too many crap brands to rely on Amazon's search features.
- yeeyeeyee 4y ago
  I'm happy to pay the $15/month just to have the capability to have stuff shipped to my door overnight for free. There are months where I don't order anything at all. Compared to rent or food it's a drop in the bucket.
  - jfghi 4y ago
    Lately it seems as though overnight has shifted to 2-3 days later.
    - m463 4y ago
      Amazon chooses shipping defaults to benefit themselves. With prime I have to manually select the shipping speed to get it the fastest. Without prime, it defaults to faster shipping that you pay for. You have to manually select slower shipping to get the advertised "free super-saver shipping"
      - copperx 4y ago
        For me, most products get delivered in 6 days with Prime. It has stopped making sense to pay for the Prime subscription. It's cheaper to pay for faster shipping, given that I only order 1-2 items monthly.
        notduncansmith 4y ago
        One nice part of shopping on eBay is their proximity sort. IME this tends to minimize shipping time (and, of course, carbon footprint). When I order something locally from the LA area, it’s usually there the next day or two even with free shipping.
  - butwhywhyoh 4y ago
    I guess because you're happy with the Amazon Prime service, it's OK for them to use scummy business practices to sign up the OP? I'm genuinely confused by your take here.
- kurupt213 4y ago
  i've had it so long that it was definitely opt in when i joined. nothing should ever default to opt out.
  - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
    > nothing should ever default to opt out Agreed. Similarly, if DoorDash could stop automatically setting a high tip on all my orders, that'd be great, thanks. I always give a tip, but it's rarely as high as the app auto-suggests, unless I have a tiny order.
    - lupire 4y ago
      Tips are a living wage for drivers. If you don't want to pay the recommended tip, either you are a charity case (no shame, everyone deserves help when they are down), or you shouldn't purchase the service.
      - omegabravo 4y ago
        I hate the tipping culture with a passion. I should not be responsible for paying your staff a living wage, that's your obligation. I have no idea about what is expected for a tip every time I travel to the US. Don't get me started on "mandatory tips"
        IceMetalPunk 4y ago
        Yep. Unfortunately, government regulations here in the US explicitly make the minimum wage for a "tipped job" much lower than the minimum wage for any other job, and the amount is not high enough for the tips to necessarily offset that difference. An employee can be getting paid the legal minimum wage, making the amount in tips every month that the law requires for that lower wage, and still end up unable to afford rent. The obligation really should be with the employer, but since capitalism breeds greedy assholes and the government regulations aren't well-designed, they mistreat their employees on the assumption they can just pass off their responsibilities to customers. It's awful. A good rule of thumb for waiters/waitresses is 15% minimum tip unless they're awful, 18% if they're good, 20% if they're amazing. The idea being that larger bills usually mean more food and/or more work for them. But for delivery drivers, in my opinion, it's the same amount of work whether I order $10 or $40 in food, especially if that amount is artificially inflated by app service fees, so I give all my app delivery drivers the same tip.
- Ancalagon 4y ago
  I've had this happen too many times to count. Just delete all payment methods on file in your account settings. Youll get warnings out the wazoo that your benefits are expiring cause they dont have a way to charge you, so if you really want to renew later you can.
  - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
    But if I do that, I would have to enter my payment info every time I want to order anything. I order enough that it would be obnoxious.
    - Ancalagon 4y ago
      I just save the payment info to the chrome browser CC payment store.
    - lupire 4y ago
      You might consider changing your consumption habits.
    - brewdad 4y ago
      Bitwarden can store and autofill payment info. Also, you'll find that a lot of those little purchases really aren't necessary when you have to either get to $35 for free shipping or pay as much as the item is worth to have it shipped. I'm saving $15 a month and at least another $50 a month just from not buying crap I didn't really need.
- goldcd 4y ago
  I do quite like their "subscribe and save" system though. Sign up for the costco-sized packs of stuff you get through, and guess how often you want to receive it. Then once a month it tells you to check - and you see what they're planning on shipping, and can skip stuff you've got and pull forward stuff you're running out of. Always thought it would be quite nifty if you could make a site like this for third-party services. I might see my 2 audible credits on there, and decide I've got enough, or need more. Or maybe apple could offer a free month - so I might pause my netflix. Could even combine stuff (free $10 Dominos credit added for each month of Netflix after month 12 etc). Whole current system of every service having their own UI, is just a pain. Worked out paying for stuff works better then you can just stick it all on the same card - so why not manage it all from one place as well?
  - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
    I like Subscribe & Save with two major exceptions, which stops me from using it: 1) Things go out of stock too much if it's a little more specific. 2) Prices are very sporadic and unstable. A subscription should be relatively predictable - with the exception of the obvious price inflation over time, but I'm talking month-to-month.
    - goldcd 4y ago
      I think that's "more of a feature, than a bug" When you subscribe to something it doesn't "lock in the price" - prices go up and down month-to-month. On the amazon side, there seems to be a bit of flex built in, when they'll still tell you the item is in stock, and tell you the price before the re-buy kicks in. A lot of the items I "get told are unavailable, would I like to go with the alternative?" are still available, just for a higher price. i.e. I think a lot of the "annoyance" is actually amazon bulk negotiating on your behalf. If say P&G decide to raise their price on their detergent, amazon has the power to decide whether 90% of their customers swallow the increase, or they all find an alternate brand. My guess is that amazon decides not to provide P&G detergent to a few hundred thousand subscribers in a month, that helps 'focus' the P&G rep in getting the price back down the next month.
derbOac 4y ago
The Blink Fitness example is telling in so many ways. It's not just that it's evil in the sense of mischievous, it reveals a sense of entitlement. I think this sense of entitlement to customer money underlies many problems in contemporary commerce.
- ornornor 4y ago
  > this sense of entitlement to customer money Don’t ever move to Europe. This is standard practice across the board there. One thing North America does well in comparison is customer service.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Gyms are notorious for this. I won’t sign up for a gym membership unless they accept checks or cash. Most accept checks, I’ve found. Could also try a virtual credit card I suppose. Citi offers those with their Visa card.
  - xeromal 4y ago
    A good local, powerlifting gym almost always is cash or credit card without a recurring subscription. The less flash, the better. The equipment will be old and the clientele mostly giant men, but they'll spot you and what is lifting weights but some metal? Does it need to be new?
    - true_religion 4y ago
      What if I want to go got gym but not lift weights? For example running , swimming , climbing, and general indoor sports are all activities that some gyms offer.
      - xeromal 4y ago
        Guess you're getting a year contract. Haha. But in all seriousness, the Y is probably where I'd go if I needed that. They usually have favorable terms.
xivzgrev 4y ago
Chewy does this really well, and follows this same advice. I get pet food on subscription. Chewy sends me a notice my order is about to ship. I can skip or cancel if I want. Shopify on the other hand is hostile. I have a small store there I've deprioritized. They have a $9 / mo inactive plan, where they keep your stuff but customers can't buy. If you want to stop paying, they delete all of your stuff & domain: https://help.shopify.com/en/manual/your-account/pause-deactivate-store#close-your-store https://help.shopify.com/en/manual/your-account/pause-deacti...
- yeeyeeyee 4y ago
  It makes sense, it could look really bad for Chewy. Say your cat got eaten by a pit bull, and then a week later you're reminded what happened by a box of cat food they automatically shipped to your door.
  - valarauko 4y ago
    tbf I doubt you'd forget about your mauled cat in a week
  - lupire 4y ago
    Chewy is famous for sending condolence gifts to customers whose pets died.
- bena 4y ago
  Yeah. Chewy's autoship is pretty nice. We have two cats and we've got the quantities and timing to where just as they're going through the last of their current food, the next shipment arrives. That and we have a subscription box from Meowbox for them as well. We used to get treats, but they didn't like the majority of them so it's just toys now.
- yesUgotit 4y ago
  Amazon subscribe and save is the same thing. I use it for toiletries and other routine consumables at home. Amazon trucks are going to be on the road anyway; may as well save my car trips for actually interesting trips.
TulliusCicero 4y ago
> Some of them will make you literally call them up to cancel. This should be illegal. If you can easily sign up online, it should be possible to cancel online just as easily.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  It is, if you're in California. It's the law.
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    Well, good. Should be illegal basically everywhere, though.
    - renewiltord 4y ago
      Well, there's a mechanism for that. I believe other states' residents don't care as much about these things, though. For instance, the amount of work required to make this law in North Dakota is pretty low, but I don't think it's going to happen.
      - TulliusCicero 4y ago
        I think it should just be a federal law enforced by the CFPB. The level of obviousness, in terms of consumer protection, is very high here.
        lupire 4y ago
        Republicans strongly oppose the CFPB: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Financial_Protection_Bureau https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Financial_Protectio...
        kelnos 4y ago
        Maybe the FTC? CFPB is solely concerned with financial institutions. They're not going to care too much about newspaper subscriptions.
harrisonjackson 4y ago
The blink fitness example has to be the result of a bad business model. How long can gyms, cable companies, cell providers etc keep customers hostage with cancellation policies like this? I mean it has been forever but c'mon! If your business doesn't provide value to your customers then you should not milk them like this... you should start providing value or cut your losses and treat them well so they will still hopefully recommend you to a friend that actually needs whatever you are selling.
reidjs 4y ago
I like how Rinse does this, a laundry service that charges roughly by weight of laundry. They text me if a driver is in my area and they subtract the weight from my account's total. If I don't use it, the excess weight carries over to the next month. It reminds me of how cell phone plans used to 'roll over' unused minutes to the next payment cycle.
- bluepnume 4y ago
  I love this model. I have a movie ticket subscription that does this too if I don't use the ticket.
- pyrolistical 4y ago
  This isn’t perfect either. Now they have pre sold weight to you. Will they offer a full refund of unused weight? If so, why did they charge you for it ahead of time instead of a per usage? They are hoping you have some excess weight you never use and it’s free profit for them
  - Someone1234 4y ago
    They offer that too. They have a Pay-As-You-Go ($2.25/lb + $12.95*/order, $30 minimum) and the subscription offering ("Rinse Repeat"). They make it impossible to price compare these offerings, as the subscription offering is charged per "bag" not by pound weight, but they do give you a guesstimate figure: $1.39/lb based on their most expensive subscription tier (very YMMV, as the "bags" hold different weight based on the clothing materials). * The website misleadingly lists the Service Fee as $7.95, and then throws in the "Health & Safety Fee" into a list of other optional fees while making it non-optional in the small print. Essentially making the Service Fee $12.95 with deceptive dark patterns for good measure.
  - tqi 4y ago
    Unless they have an expiration, they cant recognize the revenue ie it is not profit for them.
  - reidjs 4y ago
    I can’t imagine I’m going to run out of laundry to do. I’m also not too worried about losing a few bucks for the convenience
kurupt213 4y ago
Gym subscriptions are the worst
__derek__ 4y ago
I fix this by using a one-time card number for any subscription or recurring purchase. Citi and Capital One offer them for free (the latter has a much better UI), or a lot of people use Privacy.com. Even a Visa/MC gift card works well if you happen to get one for a rebate or something. It would be great if merchants all abided by #2 and gave notice of impending charges, but ultimately I prefer to shut off the taps on my timeline rather than theirs.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Gyms figured this out long ago and now many require EFT.
  - NullPrefix 4y ago
    EFT?
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Electronic Funds Transfer — an electronic transfer from a bank account.
    - immibis 4y ago
      Electronic Funds Transfer, also known as... credit card payment?
      - lupire 4y ago
        No, it's a debit account payment, like a check.
  - __derek__ 4y ago
    Interesting. My climbing gym accepts credit cards. It also allows me to cancel or freeze my membership online, though. If I were in that situation, I suppose I would open a new account just for that purpose, turn off overdraft, and transfer money into the account as needed.
  - 4y ago
roberthahn 4y ago
This makes a ton of sense for B2C contexts, but my gut reaction is that the conversational approach might be too high friction in B2B contexts. To be clear, the friction I'm thinking of is this constant cadence of stealing/borrowing attention. Perhaps this needs to be thought of as part of a larger communications strategy - who here is part of a SaaS that sends regular 'marketing' emails to existing customers? :) Maybe the defaults (boiled down, the provided examples appear to be "opt-in" if you're not in, and "opt-out" if you are in) are designed to streamline the process so conversations are ignorable so that's okay? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something! I definitely want to hear stories of this model working in the B2B space.
belthesar 4y ago
I'm very into this. A while back, I was working on a product that unfortunately folded in the live streaming content creation space, and we wanted to treat our subscriptions like refills, but we really didn't have the language around it like this. Giving users agency on the renewal process rather than hostile subscription practices is a breath of fresh air, and a surefire way I personally would feel more comfortable using a product.
UIUC_06 4y ago
Go to Privacy.com. Register and give your real credit card. Don't get the $10/month subscription for "real" privacy, unless you really don't want a record of your purchases. Now when you "subscribe" to WhizBang online, go to Privacy and create a special credit card just for WhizBang. Give WhizBang a fake name and address as well, and don't use your "regular" email. Create some spares on ProtonMail or some other low-friction service. When WhizBang goes to verify your credit card, your fake name & address are not checked. You can give them whatever you want. Your purchase will appear on your regular credit card records. If you want Privacy to use a fake seller, you have to pay for that. When you want to cancel WhizBang, you just close their credit card. They will get a Decline when they go to charge it, and they'll eventually cancel you. You can go through their official cancellation process, if you want to. This works. It's what I do.
- notimetorelax 4y ago
  I’ve done something similar in Germany, ended up getting a bill after 6 months of missed payments and a nice letter from a lawyer.
  - michaelmcdonald 4y ago
    How did they get your contact information?
    - hatware 4y ago
      You think Germans have privacy?
  - UIUC_06 4y ago
    Echoing the other responder: if you use a VPN, and don't give your real name & address, how are they going to find you?
    - infogulch 4y ago
      If privacy.com gets a subpoena from a court, do you think they would just ignore it, or would they dutifully hand over any details of whoever owned that credit card?
exabrial 4y ago
"We saw you ran your car seat heater for 4 mins yesterday. You only have 2m remaining this week, do you want to load up 4 extra mins for $400?"
AlbertCory 4y ago
An anecdote about collection agencies: I got this email for a charge of $50 on K-Mart, 20 years ago! Incredible. There actually still are K-Marts, but the closest one to me is 60 miles away. Anyhow, they said "it's too late for us to garnish or do anything else with this, but here's how you can clear it up." So no threats. First of all, I was pretty sure I didn't have a $50 charge with K-Mart 20 years ago, and in any case... 20 years!! They didn't offer any data on what it was. So I sent them all to the Spam folder. Amazingly, they sent one every day for two months. When I finally looked in the Spam folder, there they all were. They just wouldn't give up. Finally, I figured out that they were assuming I was someone else with a similar name. I answered the email and said "I'm not him." The emails stopped.
- gwd 4y ago
  When I was a grad student, my roommate had a name which didn't sound super common, but there were actually at least three grad students with the same first and last name at the same time; and two in the same department (let's call it Underwater Basket Weaving). My roommate (let's call him John A. Smith) kept getting in trouble because of this other person (let's call him John T. Smith). Once was when John T. Smith helped make an Onion-style parody paper that included sexual innuendo from a bunch of professors (including one on my roommate's thesis panel). Another was when John T. Smith ran up some sort of debt and didn't pay it, and the collections agency managed to find my roommate's information. He had a hard time convincing them that yes, there were indeed two John Smiths getting their PhD in Underwater Basket Weaving at the same time, and he was the wrong John Smith.
linuxhansl 4y ago
If I cannot cancel my subscription after a reasonable effort, I instruct my credit card company/bank to stop making the payments. Period.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
nooby12345 4y ago
Amazon "subscriptions" work the same way.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
> Some of them will make you literally call them up to cancel. In France, a new law was just passed to fight against unsubscribing hell, called "3-click unsubscribe". It is due to come in effect at the beginning of 2023. It basically says that if the business offers an "easy online subscription", then it has to offer an "easy online unsubscription" option. This doesn't apply to companies who only take subscriptions by some other means. However, it does apply to a subscription taken by other means if it's also possible to subscribe online. Google Translate source: https://www-tf1info-fr.translate.goog/economie/abonnements-en-ligne-gaz-electricite-telephonie-internet-qu-est-ce-que-la-resiliation-en-3-clics-adoptee-par-les-deputes-2227157.html?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc https://www-tf1info-fr.translate.goog/economie/abonnements-e...
- bradgessler 4y ago
  I made cancellation a feature at https://legiblenews.com/plus/hassle-free-cancelation https://legiblenews.com/plus/hassle-free-cancelation because of how absurd it is to cancel subscriptions for some major news websites. It’s absurd that this is a feature, but alas.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    Yeah, a few months ago I subscribed to Le Figaro (French newspaper). I hadn't heard anything about cancelling the subscription for this particular newspaper, but I had heard horror stories about Le Monde (yup, the famous one). Just to be extra sure, I subscribed through Apple. The "cancel subscription" always worked and I never had to send any letter or spend any amount of time on the phone. If I hadn't been aware of the Apple loophole, they wouldn't have gained my as a subscriber.
- AaronFriel 4y ago
  The FTC is using its regulatory authority here in the US to curb this as well, see this article from June of last year: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/06/02/automatic-renewals-ftc-subscriptions/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/06/02/automatic... I'm not sure of the status of any current rulemaking, though. The current chair of the FTC has made it clear she is willing to take on "dark pattern" practices such as this.
Raziarazzi 4y ago
This occurred a few years (and wrinkles) ago, and since then, the idea of replenishing has begun to catch on. Although it's still a bit of a novelty and is more common in cities like London, you can now refill your plastic containers rather than throwing them away and buying a brand-new replacement. The circular economy, which is the theory of avoiding waste by keeping things in use for as long as possible, is being developed by a wave of enterprises in this area.
getcrunk 4y ago
Here's the million dollar question? Can u sign up for privacy.com without id and a prepaid visa gift card?
- getcrunk 4y ago
  Their faq says u can only use bank or debit, so no prepaid visa
gwd 4y ago
Maybe there needs to be a webpage called "beforeyousubscribe.com" or something, which has a point system for unsubscription requirements, where people can go look before they subscribe. Right now there's a sort of "market for lemons" effect, where you can't tell when you're subscribing the good guys from the bad guys.
- bluepnume 4y ago
  Love this idea. Hope you don't mind if I pitch this to our team.
  - gwd 4y ago
    I would love it if someone other than me made this site -- I certainly don't have time to do it!
eitland 4y ago
From the headline I guessed they were planning to sell tokens, but instead it seems to be a slightly more humane version of subscriptions. So I will (again?) remind people that there are lots of services that would make a lot more sense to pay for in the form of usage tokens instead of in the form om monthly payments. But I guess that would mean missing out on sweet sweet revenue from forgetful customers.

152 points by bluepnume 4y ago

I have an Amazon Prime subscription. I don't know why, or when I signed up for it. This is the second time it's happened, so I gave up and kept it. I do order from Amazon enough that it matters, I guess. It's scummy as hell, but effective. I'd much prefer a model like the one mentioned in this article.

bluepnume 4y ago
Yeah, with Amazon, it's always a step during the checkout, with a very small opt-out button. And it often advertizes itself as being more about free shipping than setting up a prime subscription. Pretty easy to miss!
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  You know, I've seen that, but I guess I didn't pay much attention and assumed it was opt-in. Silly me for thinking Amazon would have the tiniest shred of ethics in their functional design.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    Yeah it's scammy as hell. But it's also a really great deal 14.99/month for free faster shipping, books, movies, music, etc...
    - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
      I mean, if you use all that, sure. I don't do Prime books, the only media I watch on Prime is Legend of Vox Machina, I don't use Prime music, etc. So I'm really just paying $14.99/month for one TV show and faster shipping when I do order a package. I guess that's still not too bad, but it still feels gross that I was tricked into signing up for it, twice.
    - kgermino 4y ago
      It’s not a great deal if you don’t use it. I don’t use Prime’s content features and the handful of Amazon orders I make a year usually get free shipping anyway. I’ve definitely accidentally signed up for Prime and the confusing screen is always a reminder that I should try buying my [whatever] elsewhere. Sometimes it works and I find an alternative, sometimes I find the opt out button and finish my purchase. But their scummy tactics have probably pushed a few $k in annual purchases off Amazon for me.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Prime is up to $15 a month? Holy @#$@#$ I may have to cancel, the shipping isn't worth that much ...
      - nephanth 4y ago
        They raised the price earlier this year. I cancelled immediately upon receiving the email about that raise, but I hear they didn't lose a lot of clients that way
        bombcar 4y ago
        Yeah for some reason $180 a year doesn’t hit me as hard as $15 a month.
        nephanth 4y ago
        That's interesting, you'd think the bigger number hits harder
      - brewdad 4y ago
        You can still get free shipping if you spend $35 (sometimes $25). I've found that I've really cut back on the number of stupid purchases I used to make because "it's only $5 and it'll be here tomorrow".
  - lupire 4y ago
    It's not really "opt". There are two buttons, and the huge bright one is "Yes" or something (constantly changing), referring to whatever crap (Prime, credit card, rush shipping) thet are pushing in the big interstitial ads you are ignoring. Amazon isn't worth the bother anymore. You can almost anything worthwhile somewhere else better. Amazon was founded and run by proud Objectivists, so the ethics they have might not match yours.
    - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
      Where can I get stuff from better? Most big-box stores have horrible stock and their online systems are pretty lackluster, including shipping times. I don't use Amazon to find what I want to buy - I know what I want to buy (for the most part) before I even begin to look at Amazon. Too many crap brands to rely on Amazon's search features.
yeeyeeyee 4y ago
I'm happy to pay the $15/month just to have the capability to have stuff shipped to my door overnight for free. There are months where I don't order anything at all. Compared to rent or food it's a drop in the bucket.
- jfghi 4y ago
  Lately it seems as though overnight has shifted to 2-3 days later.
  - m463 4y ago
    Amazon chooses shipping defaults to benefit themselves. With prime I have to manually select the shipping speed to get it the fastest. Without prime, it defaults to faster shipping that you pay for. You have to manually select slower shipping to get the advertised "free super-saver shipping"
    - copperx 4y ago
      For me, most products get delivered in 6 days with Prime. It has stopped making sense to pay for the Prime subscription. It's cheaper to pay for faster shipping, given that I only order 1-2 items monthly.
      - notduncansmith 4y ago
        One nice part of shopping on eBay is their proximity sort. IME this tends to minimize shipping time (and, of course, carbon footprint). When I order something locally from the LA area, it’s usually there the next day or two even with free shipping.
- butwhywhyoh 4y ago
  I guess because you're happy with the Amazon Prime service, it's OK for them to use scummy business practices to sign up the OP? I'm genuinely confused by your take here.
kurupt213 4y ago
i've had it so long that it was definitely opt in when i joined. nothing should ever default to opt out.
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  > nothing should ever default to opt out Agreed. Similarly, if DoorDash could stop automatically setting a high tip on all my orders, that'd be great, thanks. I always give a tip, but it's rarely as high as the app auto-suggests, unless I have a tiny order.
  - lupire 4y ago
    Tips are a living wage for drivers. If you don't want to pay the recommended tip, either you are a charity case (no shame, everyone deserves help when they are down), or you shouldn't purchase the service.
    - omegabravo 4y ago
      I hate the tipping culture with a passion. I should not be responsible for paying your staff a living wage, that's your obligation. I have no idea about what is expected for a tip every time I travel to the US. Don't get me started on "mandatory tips"
      - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
        Yep. Unfortunately, government regulations here in the US explicitly make the minimum wage for a "tipped job" much lower than the minimum wage for any other job, and the amount is not high enough for the tips to necessarily offset that difference. An employee can be getting paid the legal minimum wage, making the amount in tips every month that the law requires for that lower wage, and still end up unable to afford rent. The obligation really should be with the employer, but since capitalism breeds greedy assholes and the government regulations aren't well-designed, they mistreat their employees on the assumption they can just pass off their responsibilities to customers. It's awful. A good rule of thumb for waiters/waitresses is 15% minimum tip unless they're awful, 18% if they're good, 20% if they're amazing. The idea being that larger bills usually mean more food and/or more work for them. But for delivery drivers, in my opinion, it's the same amount of work whether I order $10 or $40 in food, especially if that amount is artificially inflated by app service fees, so I give all my app delivery drivers the same tip.
Ancalagon 4y ago
I've had this happen too many times to count. Just delete all payment methods on file in your account settings. Youll get warnings out the wazoo that your benefits are expiring cause they dont have a way to charge you, so if you really want to renew later you can.
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  But if I do that, I would have to enter my payment info every time I want to order anything. I order enough that it would be obnoxious.
  - Ancalagon 4y ago
    I just save the payment info to the chrome browser CC payment store.
  - lupire 4y ago
    You might consider changing your consumption habits.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    Bitwarden can store and autofill payment info. Also, you'll find that a lot of those little purchases really aren't necessary when you have to either get to $35 for free shipping or pay as much as the item is worth to have it shipped. I'm saving $15 a month and at least another $50 a month just from not buying crap I didn't really need.
goldcd 4y ago
I do quite like their "subscribe and save" system though. Sign up for the costco-sized packs of stuff you get through, and guess how often you want to receive it. Then once a month it tells you to check - and you see what they're planning on shipping, and can skip stuff you've got and pull forward stuff you're running out of. Always thought it would be quite nifty if you could make a site like this for third-party services. I might see my 2 audible credits on there, and decide I've got enough, or need more. Or maybe apple could offer a free month - so I might pause my netflix. Could even combine stuff (free $10 Dominos credit added for each month of Netflix after month 12 etc). Whole current system of every service having their own UI, is just a pain. Worked out paying for stuff works better then you can just stick it all on the same card - so why not manage it all from one place as well?
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  I like Subscribe & Save with two major exceptions, which stops me from using it: 1) Things go out of stock too much if it's a little more specific. 2) Prices are very sporadic and unstable. A subscription should be relatively predictable - with the exception of the obvious price inflation over time, but I'm talking month-to-month.
  - goldcd 4y ago
    I think that's "more of a feature, than a bug" When you subscribe to something it doesn't "lock in the price" - prices go up and down month-to-month. On the amazon side, there seems to be a bit of flex built in, when they'll still tell you the item is in stock, and tell you the price before the re-buy kicks in. A lot of the items I "get told are unavailable, would I like to go with the alternative?" are still available, just for a higher price. i.e. I think a lot of the "annoyance" is actually amazon bulk negotiating on your behalf. If say P&G decide to raise their price on their detergent, amazon has the power to decide whether 90% of their customers swallow the increase, or they all find an alternate brand. My guess is that amazon decides not to provide P&G detergent to a few hundred thousand subscribers in a month, that helps 'focus' the P&G rep in getting the price back down the next month.

derbOac 4y ago

The Blink Fitness example is telling in so many ways. It's not just that it's evil in the sense of mischievous, it reveals a sense of entitlement. I think this sense of entitlement to customer money underlies many problems in contemporary commerce.

ornornor 4y ago
> this sense of entitlement to customer money Don’t ever move to Europe. This is standard practice across the board there. One thing North America does well in comparison is customer service.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Gyms are notorious for this. I won’t sign up for a gym membership unless they accept checks or cash. Most accept checks, I’ve found. Could also try a virtual credit card I suppose. Citi offers those with their Visa card.
- xeromal 4y ago
  A good local, powerlifting gym almost always is cash or credit card without a recurring subscription. The less flash, the better. The equipment will be old and the clientele mostly giant men, but they'll spot you and what is lifting weights but some metal? Does it need to be new?
  - true_religion 4y ago
    What if I want to go got gym but not lift weights? For example running , swimming , climbing, and general indoor sports are all activities that some gyms offer.
    - xeromal 4y ago
      Guess you're getting a year contract. Haha. But in all seriousness, the Y is probably where I'd go if I needed that. They usually have favorable terms.

xivzgrev 4y ago

Chewy does this really well, and follows this same advice. I get pet food on subscription. Chewy sends me a notice my order is about to ship. I can skip or cancel if I want. Shopify on the other hand is hostile. I have a small store there I've deprioritized. They have a $9 / mo inactive plan, where they keep your stuff but customers can't buy. If you want to stop paying, they delete all of your stuff & domain: https://help.shopify.com/en/manual/your-account/pause-deactivate-store#close-your-store https://help.shopify.com/en/manual/your-account/pause-deacti...

yeeyeeyee 4y ago
It makes sense, it could look really bad for Chewy. Say your cat got eaten by a pit bull, and then a week later you're reminded what happened by a box of cat food they automatically shipped to your door.
- valarauko 4y ago
  tbf I doubt you'd forget about your mauled cat in a week
- lupire 4y ago
  Chewy is famous for sending condolence gifts to customers whose pets died.
bena 4y ago
Yeah. Chewy's autoship is pretty nice. We have two cats and we've got the quantities and timing to where just as they're going through the last of their current food, the next shipment arrives. That and we have a subscription box from Meowbox for them as well. We used to get treats, but they didn't like the majority of them so it's just toys now.
yesUgotit 4y ago
Amazon subscribe and save is the same thing. I use it for toiletries and other routine consumables at home. Amazon trucks are going to be on the road anyway; may as well save my car trips for actually interesting trips.

TulliusCicero 4y ago

> Some of them will make you literally call them up to cancel. This should be illegal. If you can easily sign up online, it should be possible to cancel online just as easily.

renewiltord 4y ago
It is, if you're in California. It's the law.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Well, good. Should be illegal basically everywhere, though.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    Well, there's a mechanism for that. I believe other states' residents don't care as much about these things, though. For instance, the amount of work required to make this law in North Dakota is pretty low, but I don't think it's going to happen.
    - TulliusCicero 4y ago
      I think it should just be a federal law enforced by the CFPB. The level of obviousness, in terms of consumer protection, is very high here.
      - lupire 4y ago
        Republicans strongly oppose the CFPB: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Financial_Protection_Bureau https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Financial_Protectio...
      - kelnos 4y ago
        Maybe the FTC? CFPB is solely concerned with financial institutions. They're not going to care too much about newspaper subscriptions.

harrisonjackson 4y ago

The blink fitness example has to be the result of a bad business model. How long can gyms, cable companies, cell providers etc keep customers hostage with cancellation policies like this? I mean it has been forever but c'mon! If your business doesn't provide value to your customers then you should not milk them like this... you should start providing value or cut your losses and treat them well so they will still hopefully recommend you to a friend that actually needs whatever you are selling.

reidjs 4y ago

I like how Rinse does this, a laundry service that charges roughly by weight of laundry. They text me if a driver is in my area and they subtract the weight from my account's total. If I don't use it, the excess weight carries over to the next month. It reminds me of how cell phone plans used to 'roll over' unused minutes to the next payment cycle.

bluepnume 4y ago
I love this model. I have a movie ticket subscription that does this too if I don't use the ticket.
pyrolistical 4y ago
This isn’t perfect either. Now they have pre sold weight to you. Will they offer a full refund of unused weight? If so, why did they charge you for it ahead of time instead of a per usage? They are hoping you have some excess weight you never use and it’s free profit for them
- Someone1234 4y ago
  They offer that too. They have a Pay-As-You-Go ($2.25/lb + $12.95*/order, $30 minimum) and the subscription offering ("Rinse Repeat"). They make it impossible to price compare these offerings, as the subscription offering is charged per "bag" not by pound weight, but they do give you a guesstimate figure: $1.39/lb based on their most expensive subscription tier (very YMMV, as the "bags" hold different weight based on the clothing materials). * The website misleadingly lists the Service Fee as $7.95, and then throws in the "Health & Safety Fee" into a list of other optional fees while making it non-optional in the small print. Essentially making the Service Fee $12.95 with deceptive dark patterns for good measure.
- tqi 4y ago
  Unless they have an expiration, they cant recognize the revenue ie it is not profit for them.
- reidjs 4y ago
  I can’t imagine I’m going to run out of laundry to do. I’m also not too worried about losing a few bucks for the convenience

kurupt213 4y ago

Gym subscriptions are the worst

__derek__ 4y ago

I fix this by using a one-time card number for any subscription or recurring purchase. Citi and Capital One offer them for free (the latter has a much better UI), or a lot of people use Privacy.com. Even a Visa/MC gift card works well if you happen to get one for a rebate or something. It would be great if merchants all abided by #2 and gave notice of impending charges, but ultimately I prefer to shut off the taps on my timeline rather than theirs.

kube-system 4y ago
Gyms figured this out long ago and now many require EFT.
- NullPrefix 4y ago
  EFT?
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Electronic Funds Transfer — an electronic transfer from a bank account.
  - immibis 4y ago
    Electronic Funds Transfer, also known as... credit card payment?
    - lupire 4y ago
      No, it's a debit account payment, like a check.
- __derek__ 4y ago
  Interesting. My climbing gym accepts credit cards. It also allows me to cancel or freeze my membership online, though. If I were in that situation, I suppose I would open a new account just for that purpose, turn off overdraft, and transfer money into the account as needed.
- 4y ago

roberthahn 4y ago

This makes a ton of sense for B2C contexts, but my gut reaction is that the conversational approach might be too high friction in B2B contexts. To be clear, the friction I'm thinking of is this constant cadence of stealing/borrowing attention. Perhaps this needs to be thought of as part of a larger communications strategy - who here is part of a SaaS that sends regular 'marketing' emails to existing customers? :) Maybe the defaults (boiled down, the provided examples appear to be "opt-in" if you're not in, and "opt-out" if you are in) are designed to streamline the process so conversations are ignorable so that's okay? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something! I definitely want to hear stories of this model working in the B2B space.

belthesar 4y ago

I'm very into this. A while back, I was working on a product that unfortunately folded in the live streaming content creation space, and we wanted to treat our subscriptions like refills, but we really didn't have the language around it like this. Giving users agency on the renewal process rather than hostile subscription practices is a breath of fresh air, and a surefire way I personally would feel more comfortable using a product.

UIUC_06 4y ago

Go to Privacy.com. Register and give your real credit card. Don't get the $10/month subscription for "real" privacy, unless you really don't want a record of your purchases. Now when you "subscribe" to WhizBang online, go to Privacy and create a special credit card just for WhizBang. Give WhizBang a fake name and address as well, and don't use your "regular" email. Create some spares on ProtonMail or some other low-friction service. When WhizBang goes to verify your credit card, your fake name & address are not checked. You can give them whatever you want. Your purchase will appear on your regular credit card records. If you want Privacy to use a fake seller, you have to pay for that. When you want to cancel WhizBang, you just close their credit card. They will get a Decline when they go to charge it, and they'll eventually cancel you. You can go through their official cancellation process, if you want to. This works. It's what I do.

notimetorelax 4y ago
I’ve done something similar in Germany, ended up getting a bill after 6 months of missed payments and a nice letter from a lawyer.
- michaelmcdonald 4y ago
  How did they get your contact information?
  - hatware 4y ago
    You think Germans have privacy?
- UIUC_06 4y ago
  Echoing the other responder: if you use a VPN, and don't give your real name & address, how are they going to find you?
  - infogulch 4y ago
    If privacy.com gets a subpoena from a court, do you think they would just ignore it, or would they dutifully hand over any details of whoever owned that credit card?

exabrial 4y ago

"We saw you ran your car seat heater for 4 mins yesterday. You only have 2m remaining this week, do you want to load up 4 extra mins for $400?"

AlbertCory 4y ago

An anecdote about collection agencies: I got this email for a charge of $50 on K-Mart, 20 years ago! Incredible. There actually still are K-Marts, but the closest one to me is 60 miles away. Anyhow, they said "it's too late for us to garnish or do anything else with this, but here's how you can clear it up." So no threats. First of all, I was pretty sure I didn't have a $50 charge with K-Mart 20 years ago, and in any case... 20 years!! They didn't offer any data on what it was. So I sent them all to the Spam folder. Amazingly, they sent one every day for two months. When I finally looked in the Spam folder, there they all were. They just wouldn't give up. Finally, I figured out that they were assuming I was someone else with a similar name. I answered the email and said "I'm not him." The emails stopped.

gwd 4y ago
When I was a grad student, my roommate had a name which didn't sound super common, but there were actually at least three grad students with the same first and last name at the same time; and two in the same department (let's call it Underwater Basket Weaving). My roommate (let's call him John A. Smith) kept getting in trouble because of this other person (let's call him John T. Smith). Once was when John T. Smith helped make an Onion-style parody paper that included sexual innuendo from a bunch of professors (including one on my roommate's thesis panel). Another was when John T. Smith ran up some sort of debt and didn't pay it, and the collections agency managed to find my roommate's information. He had a hard time convincing them that yes, there were indeed two John Smiths getting their PhD in Underwater Basket Weaving at the same time, and he was the wrong John Smith.

linuxhansl 4y ago

If I cannot cancel my subscription after a reasonable effort, I instruct my credit card company/bank to stop making the payments. Period.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

nooby12345 4y ago

Amazon "subscriptions" work the same way.

vladvasiliu 4y ago

> Some of them will make you literally call them up to cancel. In France, a new law was just passed to fight against unsubscribing hell, called "3-click unsubscribe". It is due to come in effect at the beginning of 2023. It basically says that if the business offers an "easy online subscription", then it has to offer an "easy online unsubscription" option. This doesn't apply to companies who only take subscriptions by some other means. However, it does apply to a subscription taken by other means if it's also possible to subscribe online. Google Translate source: https://www-tf1info-fr.translate.goog/economie/abonnements-en-ligne-gaz-electricite-telephonie-internet-qu-est-ce-que-la-resiliation-en-3-clics-adoptee-par-les-deputes-2227157.html?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc https://www-tf1info-fr.translate.goog/economie/abonnements-e...

bradgessler 4y ago
I made cancellation a feature at https://legiblenews.com/plus/hassle-free-cancelation https://legiblenews.com/plus/hassle-free-cancelation because of how absurd it is to cancel subscriptions for some major news websites. It’s absurd that this is a feature, but alas.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  Yeah, a few months ago I subscribed to Le Figaro (French newspaper). I hadn't heard anything about cancelling the subscription for this particular newspaper, but I had heard horror stories about Le Monde (yup, the famous one). Just to be extra sure, I subscribed through Apple. The "cancel subscription" always worked and I never had to send any letter or spend any amount of time on the phone. If I hadn't been aware of the Apple loophole, they wouldn't have gained my as a subscriber.
AaronFriel 4y ago
The FTC is using its regulatory authority here in the US to curb this as well, see this article from June of last year: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/06/02/automatic-renewals-ftc-subscriptions/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/06/02/automatic... I'm not sure of the status of any current rulemaking, though. The current chair of the FTC has made it clear she is willing to take on "dark pattern" practices such as this.

Raziarazzi 4y ago

This occurred a few years (and wrinkles) ago, and since then, the idea of replenishing has begun to catch on. Although it's still a bit of a novelty and is more common in cities like London, you can now refill your plastic containers rather than throwing them away and buying a brand-new replacement. The circular economy, which is the theory of avoiding waste by keeping things in use for as long as possible, is being developed by a wave of enterprises in this area.

getcrunk 4y ago

Here's the million dollar question? Can u sign up for privacy.com without id and a prepaid visa gift card?

getcrunk 4y ago
Their faq says u can only use bank or debit, so no prepaid visa

gwd 4y ago

Maybe there needs to be a webpage called "beforeyousubscribe.com" or something, which has a point system for unsubscription requirements, where people can go look before they subscribe. Right now there's a sort of "market for lemons" effect, where you can't tell when you're subscribing the good guys from the bad guys.

bluepnume 4y ago
Love this idea. Hope you don't mind if I pitch this to our team.
- gwd 4y ago
  I would love it if someone other than me made this site -- I certainly don't have time to do it!

eitland 4y ago

From the headline I guessed they were planning to sell tokens, but instead it seems to be a slightly more humane version of subscriptions. So I will (again?) remind people that there are lots of services that would make a lot more sense to pay for in the form of usage tokens instead of in the form om monthly payments. But I guess that would mean missing out on sweet sweet revenue from forgetful customers.