10 ms·

Yes, the city I'm living in is planning to do so also, it's one of the biggest french cities. My biggest issue with it is there is no plan to help poor people

Yes, the city I'm living in is planning to do so also, it's one of the biggest french cities. My biggest issue with it is there is no plan to help poor people who will need to buy a new car or they won't be able to drive anymore in the city. Those policies must happen fast, but we should not sacrifice poor people to do so.

mellavora 4y ago
France is now offering a €4k e-bike subsidy to people who trade in their car (road.cc) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32562475 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32562475 yesterday
khuey 4y ago
I don't know about France but the plan in California is to end sales of new ICE cars. If you have an existing car you can keep using it.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  I wonder if this will end up being like the "Yank Tank" phenomenon in Cuba. If purchasing a replacement ICE automobile is out of the question, people will go to great lengths to keep the grandfathered ones in working condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yank_tank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yank_tank
  - nradov 4y ago
    The old Yank Tanks are simple and easy to service with some basic mechanical skill and tools. Spare parts can even be fabricated if necessary. But ICE vehicles built in the last couple decades have become exponentially more complex. They're more reliable, but also more fragile and harder to repair. This is particularly a problem for proprietary electronic parts such as control modules. Once replacement parts are no longer available from the manufacturer it will become impractical to keep those ICE cars running.
  - wcfields 4y ago
    They'll end of failing Smog checks and eventually be sold to Arizona and/or driven over into Mexico. In Baja cars with California plates and long expired registration tags aren't too uncommon.
- mr_mitm 4y ago
  Right. What the article says: California to ban the sale of new gasoline cars What people appear to be reading: California to ban the possession of all gasoline cars You'll still be able to keep your car and even buy used gasoline cars. Words mean things, don't ignore them.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Hell, you'll even be allowed to go to the next state over and buy a gasoline car for the time being
mrwh 4y ago
Given that electric cars are already cheaper to run than ICE cars, especially older and less efficient ICE cars, the transition should be net positive for poorer people. I'm being somewhat panglossian here of course, but lower fuelling and maintenance costs have the potential to help, not hinder. We just have to get there.
ericmay 4y ago
If they are poor how can they afford a new car? Sales of EVs will continue, old gasoline cars will still exist. Then there's biking, walking, public transit, and living closer to your day-to-day needs. If anything this will help the poor. Here's a better thing to think about: why do we as a society in various countries require poor people to buy a car in order to participate in society? Maybe instead of doing that, we should treat cars as luxury objects and an after-thought and instead actually build correctly and in a equitable and afforable way?
- nightski 4y ago
  Well new EVs cost 40-60k. You can get an extremely nice new ICE for significantly less than that. So poor is probably being used relatively. Telling people who aren't rich to just walk to work is a joke right? Electric cars will come down in price and I'm all for the push. But the timelines seem unrealistic to me.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    No, the joke is taxing poor people (and everyone, frankly) with mandatory car purchases. If you can't walk or bike to work, your society has failed to build affordable housing relative to low to moderate incomes, or it has failed in urban planning. It's certainly one of those two. Obviously there exclusings for people such as farmers or if you actively choose to live far away from your job, but in doing so you should directly feel that cost with high purchase prices for a vehicle (which means you'll also repair it, right to repair and all right?), high fuel tax, and extreme inconvenience if you are driving to a city. Ultimately economic physics will dictate this reality, no new technology will "save us" in time before costs become too extreme for this car-centric lifestyle to continue. I'm just hoping there isn't too much damage done to human civilization via resource conflicts and that we survive our stupidity.
    - anthony_d 4y ago
      And the irony here is that you're complaining about taxing the poor while living in an affluent suburb. Unless you still live with your parents, you chose to live in a part of the city with expensive housing and no public transportation. Move to Franklinton and you'll have buses and scooters and no need to own a car. Most of my neighbors have cars but they don't use them most days. I bike to the gym and all of downtown. I do take my car grocery shopping (carry bags on bus or scooter sucks) and to work (when I go) but that's it. I enjoy cars but I avoid driving out of obligation. The lifestyle you chose is car-centric but you chose it, and I think that's a very important detail.
benhurmarcel 4y ago
No policy should make it easier to buy a car, even an EV. We want to get rid of cars in cities. People who can't afford an EV can get a bicycle (electric even). Actually that's what those cities want most people to do, even those who can afford an EV. The government doesn't owe a car to anyone.

mellavora 4y ago

France is now offering a €4k e-bike subsidy to people who trade in their car (road.cc) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32562475 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32562475 yesterday

khuey 4y ago

I don't know about France but the plan in California is to end sales of new ICE cars. If you have an existing car you can keep using it.

BitwiseFool 4y ago
I wonder if this will end up being like the "Yank Tank" phenomenon in Cuba. If purchasing a replacement ICE automobile is out of the question, people will go to great lengths to keep the grandfathered ones in working condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yank_tank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yank_tank
- nradov 4y ago
  The old Yank Tanks are simple and easy to service with some basic mechanical skill and tools. Spare parts can even be fabricated if necessary. But ICE vehicles built in the last couple decades have become exponentially more complex. They're more reliable, but also more fragile and harder to repair. This is particularly a problem for proprietary electronic parts such as control modules. Once replacement parts are no longer available from the manufacturer it will become impractical to keep those ICE cars running.
- wcfields 4y ago
  They'll end of failing Smog checks and eventually be sold to Arizona and/or driven over into Mexico. In Baja cars with California plates and long expired registration tags aren't too uncommon.
mr_mitm 4y ago
Right. What the article says: California to ban the sale of new gasoline cars What people appear to be reading: California to ban the possession of all gasoline cars You'll still be able to keep your car and even buy used gasoline cars. Words mean things, don't ignore them.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Hell, you'll even be allowed to go to the next state over and buy a gasoline car for the time being

mrwh 4y ago

Given that electric cars are already cheaper to run than ICE cars, especially older and less efficient ICE cars, the transition should be net positive for poorer people. I'm being somewhat panglossian here of course, but lower fuelling and maintenance costs have the potential to help, not hinder. We just have to get there.

ericmay 4y ago

If they are poor how can they afford a new car? Sales of EVs will continue, old gasoline cars will still exist. Then there's biking, walking, public transit, and living closer to your day-to-day needs. If anything this will help the poor. Here's a better thing to think about: why do we as a society in various countries require poor people to buy a car in order to participate in society? Maybe instead of doing that, we should treat cars as luxury objects and an after-thought and instead actually build correctly and in a equitable and afforable way?

nightski 4y ago
Well new EVs cost 40-60k. You can get an extremely nice new ICE for significantly less than that. So poor is probably being used relatively. Telling people who aren't rich to just walk to work is a joke right? Electric cars will come down in price and I'm all for the push. But the timelines seem unrealistic to me.
- ericmay 4y ago
  No, the joke is taxing poor people (and everyone, frankly) with mandatory car purchases. If you can't walk or bike to work, your society has failed to build affordable housing relative to low to moderate incomes, or it has failed in urban planning. It's certainly one of those two. Obviously there exclusings for people such as farmers or if you actively choose to live far away from your job, but in doing so you should directly feel that cost with high purchase prices for a vehicle (which means you'll also repair it, right to repair and all right?), high fuel tax, and extreme inconvenience if you are driving to a city. Ultimately economic physics will dictate this reality, no new technology will "save us" in time before costs become too extreme for this car-centric lifestyle to continue. I'm just hoping there isn't too much damage done to human civilization via resource conflicts and that we survive our stupidity.
  - anthony_d 4y ago
    And the irony here is that you're complaining about taxing the poor while living in an affluent suburb. Unless you still live with your parents, you chose to live in a part of the city with expensive housing and no public transportation. Move to Franklinton and you'll have buses and scooters and no need to own a car. Most of my neighbors have cars but they don't use them most days. I bike to the gym and all of downtown. I do take my car grocery shopping (carry bags on bus or scooter sucks) and to work (when I go) but that's it. I enjoy cars but I avoid driving out of obligation. The lifestyle you chose is car-centric but you chose it, and I think that's a very important detail.

benhurmarcel 4y ago

No policy should make it easier to buy a car, even an EV. We want to get rid of cars in cities. People who can't afford an EV can get a bicycle (electric even). Actually that's what those cities want most people to do, even those who can afford an EV. The government doesn't owe a car to anyone.