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The problem of dangerous interactions between drivers and cyclists is much smaller here in the Netherlands, mainly due to two reasons. The first reason is the

The problem of dangerous interactions between drivers and cyclists is much smaller here in the Netherlands, mainly due to two reasons. The first reason is the infrastructure, both visible and invisible. Separated bicycle lanes are commonplace and in the few places where they intersect with car traffic, care is taken to make crossing safe and comfortable. This visible infrastructure is complemented by the concept of "Hoofdnetten", where the default routes to some place for different modes of transportation coincide for the least amount of time/space. For example, going somewhere by bike might take you through a residential neighborhood with barely any traffic, which is also slowed by speed bumps and narrowed streets, whereas buses will use a bus lane taking a slightly longer route, and car traffic has to go all the way around. The second reason is that here, everyone is a cyclist. Going for groceries? Five minute bike ride, much easier and quicker than going by car. Kids cycle to school alone from a young age. Going out for drinks? Bike. Because everyone is a cyclist and there are cyclists everywhere, cyclists are equal participants in traffic and are treated with care and respect.

moffkalast 4y ago
> Going out for drinks? Bike. As long as you don't actually drink anything hah. Everyone's a designated driver with bikes.
- acomjean 4y ago
  We had a friend who got into an minor accident (fall really) after drinking and cycling. He was wearing a helmet and he’s become a helmet evangelist.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  Tbf, the danger of drunk cycling is significantly lower to third parties vs driving in a car. And you're unlikely to succeed if you're too drunk as well, as you still need to balance - which drunk people can't. It's still illegal in most places however, so your point stands
  - usrusr 4y ago
    Drunk cyclists can. Back in my wild years, on some occasions walking to the bike was the difficult part. Bikes are much better at self-stabilizing than legs. The main danger (outside of going too fast, if you happen to have the training) is losing track of traffic. This isn't much of a problem on deserted night-time streets, but can easily be overwhelming during the day. Don't ever consider the bike when planning for daytime drinking. As for the law, it's good to have limits to drunk cycling, but it's important to have them tolerate a considerably higher BAC than those for driving.
    - wiredfool 4y ago
      I'm not drunk if I can track stand.
      - usrusr 4y ago
        I know I can't be sober if I try
    - tomjen3 4y ago
      Here is Denmark there is a BAC limit for cars, motorcycles, mopeds etc of 0.5 The limit for a bicycle is if you can cycle safely, and it is only a fixed fine. You can go to prison for doing it in the other cases (though you will typically not, for a first offence). The other advantage is that you can walk home with your bicycle if you are too drunk to drive it. You don't have that option with a car.
    - runarberg 4y ago
      The potential injuries from drunk biking is in a whole other league the the injuries from drunk driving. Most bike injuries can be patched up at you local clinic (or even your home; unless your injury involves a car; so safe bike infrastructure is essential in making drunk biking safe), whereas drunk driving can cause some pretty horrendous injuries, to you, or your victims. The two modes should not be compared.
  - spaetzleesser 4y ago
- rocgf 4y ago
  Cycling drunk is technically illegal, but often unenforced in the Netherlands. You should see the thousands of obviously 'drunk' people leaving festivals on bikes, under the eyes of the police.
  - rahkiin 4y ago
    Correct. Police prefer people drunk cycling than drunk in the car.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    You have to be careful about where you park you bike around drunk people. I locked my bike up in Leidseplein once, and when I came back, somebody had barfed on my bike seat! achenet: The officer will direct you to the separate bike lanes for Ketamine and LSD.
  - achenet 4y ago
    It's okay officer, I'm not drunk, I just had a bunch of ketamine and some LSD.
  - sebazzz 4y ago
    Fun fact: you can lose your car driving license if you are drunk when cycling. But you can't lose it if you don't have one!
    - interestica 4y ago
      Can someone easily renounce their drivers license in advance?
    - rocgf 4y ago
      In the Netherlands, that is not the case. The worst they can do is give you a fine.
- grardb 4y ago
  Do you get too drunk to ride a bicycle every time you go out for drinks?
  - soco 4y ago
    The good thing is, "too drunk to ride a bike" happens much earlier than "too drunk". And while with a car some push it and still drive drunk (sometimes with horrendous consequences), a bike has this safety mechanism where they simply cannot be ridden when drunk.
    - feet 4y ago
      A bike also has the safety mechanism of not being 3000 pounds and the inability to easily drive through the walls of buildings
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      It's as if all bikes came with their own tamper proof drunk driver detector and drunk usage preventer: a built-in continuous driver balance testing system, even more reliable than a breathalyzer, and able to detect all kinds of other drugs too. Drunk tricycle driving and bikes with training wheels: now those much more inherently dangerous problems!
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Somehow the bycicles in Germany seem to lack such mechanism, given the state of some examples I have witnessed.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      That just isn’t true. I’ve cycled while extremely drunk on multiple occasions (which, to be clear, I think is a bad idea).
    - SauciestGNU 4y ago
      I am a practiced cyclist and an accomplished drinker, and I can tell you that I am able to operate a bicycle deeper into intoxication than I can reliably walk.
- RWSen 4y ago
  ANother anecdote from The Netherlands: when we go out to drink we go by bike so everyone can drink! Worst case scenario: you bike there and walk back again. You can't take a car with you when you're walking. Personally, while drunk, I lose the ability to walk straight before I lose the ability to bike.
  - immibis 4y ago
    And presumably you can walk with your bike.
- solardev 4y ago
  You can actually get "biking under the influence" tickets in some places.
- mmcnl 4y ago
  It's not enforced in The Netherlands. Better to have drunk people on bikes than in cars.
DonHopkins 4y ago
The safe and comfortable boulevard along the Slotervart canal in Amsterdam that I frequently ride along into the city is not only lined with trees, but there are also lines of trees between the bike lanes and the roads on both sides, and separate dog walking paths and park benches in the trees between the bike lane and the canal, and big roundabouts with outer bike lanes at intersections! So cars don't mix with bikes, and bikes don't mix with pedestrians and dogs (and their poop). It's a really pleasant, stress reducing, smooth, green, cool, shady ride. https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3495859,4.8053688,3a,75y,74.04h,84.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sacdLAYrG6jsOhz6cvAUBiA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DacdLAYrG6jsOhz6cvAUBiA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D329.43054%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3495859,4.8053688,3a,75y,74....
vishnugupta 4y ago
Third reason, law. In an incident between cycle and car, the car is deemed to be at fault by default. Unless the cyclist does something outrageously stupid bordering on committing suicide.
- microtonal 4y ago
  IANAL, but actually it's even stronger. If the cyclist/pedestrial is at fault, the car driver is normally responsible for 50% of the damage. The reason is that a cyclist (or pedestrian) has a higher chance of heavy injury due to the mass of a car. The primary exception to this is 'force majeure', which is apparently exceptionally hard to prove [1] (the example that the linked page gives is someone pushes a person in front of a car). [1] https://www.anwb.nl/juridisch-advies/aanrijding-en-dan/aansprakelijkheid/voetganger-of-fietser https://www.anwb.nl/juridisch-advies/aanrijding-en-dan/aansp...
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  > Unless the cyclist does something outrageously stupid bordering on committing suicide. Yeah, like riding a bike in the first place. Only thing worse is riding a motorcycle. "The car is always wrong" has got to be the stupidest traffic law ever written. Every single day cyclists and motorcyclists do straight up illegal stuff near me and I have to accomodate them because of stupid laws like that. They do absolutely insane stuff. I get anxious every time I see one on my mirrors.
wkjagt 4y ago
Another reason is that being really respectful around cyclists is an important part of driving lessons in The Netherlands. And I think you can fail your driving test if you pass a bike too close, open your door without looking if a cyclists is coming from behind, or passing over a bike lane at an intersection without looking. I am from The Netherlands and I only realized since moving to Canada that my home country is such a safe place for cyclists. I find it interesting that no one in The Netherlands wears a helmet when cycling and yet serious cycling injuries don’t seem to be a common thing, whereas here in Canada I know of multiple people that got “doored” or otherwise have been in a bike related accident.
- habi 4y ago
  > open your door without looking if a cyclists is coming from behind, Once you learn about the https://www.dutchreach.org https://www.dutchreach.org it's hard to forget it. It helps to avoid the not-looking-for-cyclists problem :) (It might even have been here on HN where I learned about it.)
  - KineticLensman 4y ago
    The Dutch Rear has recently been added to the UK Highway Code [0], a mix of legal requirements and suggestions for safe road use. [0] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code
- bluGill 4y ago
  >I find it interesting that no one in The Netherlands wears a helmet when cycling and yet serious cycling injuries don’t seem to be a common thing Neurosurgeons in the Netherlands disagree with this, and are begging locals to wear helmets. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/10/neurologists-launch-campaign-to-encourage-bike-helmets-and-slash-brain-injuries/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/10/neurologists-launch-ca... I don't know how rates of injuries compare between countries, but that is irrelevant.
  - diarmuidc 4y ago
antihero 4y ago
Just need a way to deal with bike theft. My number one concern is parking my pretty decent bike within view of where I’m sitting or not leaving it unattended for over five minutes. I’m insured, but I have a bond with my wheels! If anyone has recommendations for stealth theft detection/tracking devices I’m all ears.
- MrFantastic 4y ago
  Cover the branding labels on your bike. The thieves want to steal expensive bikes, not a walmart bike. I used white engineering reflective tape. They'd have to be very dedicated thief to notice to the Deore XT components. Plus, the reflective tape is very visible at night.
  - olyjohn 4y ago
    Yeah... this is totally wrong, or maybe it depends on where you live... Here, cheap bikes get stolen all the time. I started riding my heavy-ass, ancient, steel, suspensionless bike that I had bought 20 years prior for like $200 from Target. Not even a pawn shop would want to take the bike, because they are cheap junk. It got stolen from me in less than a week after starting a biking commute. And yes I locked it up. The lock was cut right off. The thing is people aren't stealing them to always sell them. Sometimes it's just easier to quickly grab a bike when the thief needs to get across town for some other reason. When they get to where they want to go, they just ditch the bike. Sometimes I think some people just want to steal a bike for no real reason. In Seattle, I've seen gigantic piles with hundred of bikes in them just sitting in a homeless camp. They clearly aren't selling those bikes, as they've been sitting out in the rain for months, or even years now. And I guarantee those homeless camps aren't full of multi-thousand dollar bikes.
- badlucklottery 4y ago
  >If anyone has recommendations for stealth theft detection/tracking devices I’m all ears. If you have a bike lock/chain that can resist bolt cutters, you're probably fine for everything other than leaving it overnight. Casual bike thieves are looking for easy money and likely aren't going to bust out an angle grinder in the middle of the day unless your bike is obviously worth a grand+.
spaetzleesser 4y ago
"The second reason is that here, everyone is a cyclist. Going for groceries? Five minute bike ride, much easier and quicker than going by car. Kids cycle to school alone from a young age. Going out for drinks? Bike. Because everyone is a cyclist and there are cyclists everywhere, cyclists are equal participants in traffic and are treated with care and respect." that's how I felt in Munich. Bikes were everywhere and drivers were used to them. In the US in most places bikes are rare so drivers (including me) stop looking for them.
- johannes1234321 4y ago
  As somebody living in Munich and visiting Amsterdam from time to time: Munich and Netherlands are very different. From an American perspective Munich certainly is good, but Amsterdam is still a different league. If you got the chance go there for a while.
  - mmcnl 4y ago
    Amsterdam is not representative of Dutch bicycle culture. Amsterdam is crowded with narrow bicycle lanes that are often shared with cars. The great thing about the Dutch bicycle structure is that it spans the entire country. It's not just the big cities. Every city, town and village has high quality bicycle lanes. You can easily bike around the country on dedicated bicycle routes in The Netherlands.
InCityDreams 4y ago
>cyclists are equal participants in traffic and are treated with care and respect. ...and you're absolutely royally fucked if you hit one, plays a part.
andsoitis 4y ago
My experience in Amsterdam is that the cyclists are exceptionally rude and dangerous to pedestrians.
- ghaff 4y ago
  I can't say I've experienced that. But there are a lot of bicycles which you need to be aware of as a pedestrian to a much greater degree than many other places.
Vrondi 4y ago
This is what is needed. Unlike coming upon a cyclist on a highway, in a blind curve, on a mountain road with a 45 mph speed limit. Where I live, there's no bike culture or infrastructure, and the rare cyclist in this setting strikes me as rather suicidal.
philamonster 4y ago
Couldn't agree more. Not going to get into philosophical/cultural differences between life in your country and America but it cannot be ignored the gap between a cyclist's mentality and the right-to-road mentality of the average car driver, even in supposed bike friendly cities, in the US. This fundamental difference in thought is reinforced by infrastructure and the type and size of vehicles that are pervasive on American roads. Just had another white bike memorial erected on my route to work some 2 months ago that stamps out any idea of either being able to commute to work safely again myself or that this gap in thought could/is shrink/ing. That said, I have seen and still see some questionable cyclist practices on these roads from type of bike, lane of travel, footwear (or gear in general), lack of helmet (or misfitting/unfastened helmet) and route choice though I understand, at least where I live now, there sometimes isn't a choice. In larger cities there was an unspoken agreement _most_ of the time between myself and vehicles in the road that we were "aware" of one another. I find sometimes cyclists being far too aggressive to assert that awareness on drivers here (or today?) where it could be an honest misconception that the person behind the wheel knows how to interact with a cyclist for any number of reasons. Full disclosure; former bike messenger in Boston, Philly & Portland OR, long-time commuter when not riding for work.
navane 4y ago
Everyone is a cyclist and therefore drivers are very empathetic towards cyclists: a couple hours later or earlier they were the cyclist, and the cyclist was the driver.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  This is a highly idealistic myth. Most drivers are not "cyclists a few hours earlier/later", and many definitely aren't empathetic. The split between bike lanes and car lanes, as well as the law favoring cyclists, should make that obvious. Cyclists even get away not showing their direction despite this being taught from early age.
  - mrsuprawsm 4y ago
    My experience is the complete opposite of what you describe.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      That's cool, but the stats continue to show wealth causes increase in driving and people continue to live pretty far away from work. Most people are not going to cycle after getting home from work or prior. The few Amsterdam anecdotes in this thread don't weight up against the masses driving 20+ minutes and the high traffic roads being expanded again. Now add the many laws favorable towards cyclists and measurements taken to accommodate them. It's not empathy. It's saving one's own hide from causing a lot of harm, a sense of guilt and the potential lawsuit waiting to happen. There's no special empathy given to cyclists in particular, only universal respect towards any non-motorized vehicle and individuals (e.g. children, individuals with heavy groceries). Your experience is dispelled the moment you take an hour cycling to and from work. That's pretty easy for anyone not on a SDE salary.
      - dncornholio 4y ago
        Amsterdam is a pretty shitty place to bike if you compare it to the rest of the Netherlands. The point these posts are making is that you need dedicated infrastructure to get people to cycle. Roads need to be walkable as well. So NA's car centric infra is the cause. Not the cyclists.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Because everyone is a cyclist and there are cyclists everywhere, cyclists are equal participants in traffic and are treated with care and respect Dutch cyclists are also more observant of the rules. In New York, cyclists regularly blow through red lights and cross walks going through wrong way and at high speed.
wpietri 4y ago
And my understanding is that this is a historically recent development, yes? That this bike friendliness comes from a conscious shift and a lot of hard work in the last few decades? I saw a lecture a while back by the head of the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition, who spent some months in Amsterdam and talked about this. It was inspiring to think how much was possible here with relatively modest changes. Changes which seem even more possible with the pandemic, as a bunch of streets here got converted to low-traffic roads.
- michiel_ 4y ago
  > That this bike friendliness comes from a conscious shift and a lot of hard work in the last few decades? The infrastructure and safety comes from a conscious shift and a lot of hard work, roughly starting in the 1970s. But cycling used to be the predominant mode of personal transportation until well into the 1960s; the average Dutch person simply couldn't afford a car until then. There are films of throngs of bicyclists completely blocking the road for cars, purely by overwhelming numbers. There were campaign films "educating" bicyclists about "their proper place on the road". (A short, easy example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTcQ9tSyUCs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTcQ9tSyUCs . It's a commercial, it's message is "It's no fun driving a car in Amsterdam; bring a bicycle!") Bicycle-safe infrastructure was as much about clearing the main road for motorists, as it was about making bicyclists safer, and relatively speaking, bicycles have dwindled in importance since the country started building bike-safe infrastructure; correlation, not causation. So I'm a bit uncomfortable when people mythologize the infrastructural revolution of the 1970s. Yes, impressive work was done. But it happened within a specific cultural and economic context that doesn't exist anymore.
deleted 4y ago
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logifail 4y ago
> Kids cycle to school alone from a young age Unfortunately our kids weren't allowed to cycle to school unaccompanied by an adult until they reached year 4 and had passed their cycling proficiency test (mid-way through that school year). I've been cycling with my daughter to kindergarten for at least a year, she's fine with the cycling bit, it's the looking-out-for-other-vehicles bit that's not quite there yet :/ This obviously depends a lot on local road layouts, and unfortunately we have a junction more or less right outside the school and kindergarten that way too many car drivers come through at speed...
- andruby 4y ago
  What age are kids generally in “year 4”? I assume you didn’t mean kids of age 4?
  - kuschku 4y ago
    The fourth year of school, the last year of primary school, is at age 10. Depending on region, children cycling on their own to school typically starts somewhere between ages 6-10.
jotm 4y ago
Wait, you can ride drunk? That's a point deduction on your driver's licence in other countries lol Tbf I stopped doing that because I fell a couple of times, last time really hard, too.
inerte 4y ago
I remember I learned this on a "Not Just Bikes" YouTube video, but I can't find it now, but it blew my mind how simple intentional things make a huge difference. It was about the car lane, curb, and where people bike/walk in the Netherlands. In most countries, the car lane is lower than the sidewalk, and when they have to turn, the lane doesn't change - no bumps, or elevation. A pedestrian / cyclist going from their space into the car lane has to usually face a down slope, so it's very clear the person is entering another area. In at least this Netherlands city or video I watched, Not Just Bikes talked about how over there the car goes into ascent, as in, the car is entering the bicycle space. So it's not as smooth, or convenient, or the same mental model as the other way. edit: found the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OfBpQgLXUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OfBpQgLXUc

moffkalast 4y ago

> Going out for drinks? Bike. As long as you don't actually drink anything hah. Everyone's a designated driver with bikes.

acomjean 4y ago
We had a friend who got into an minor accident (fall really) after drinking and cycling. He was wearing a helmet and he’s become a helmet evangelist.
411111111111111 4y ago
Tbf, the danger of drunk cycling is significantly lower to third parties vs driving in a car. And you're unlikely to succeed if you're too drunk as well, as you still need to balance - which drunk people can't. It's still illegal in most places however, so your point stands
- usrusr 4y ago
  Drunk cyclists can. Back in my wild years, on some occasions walking to the bike was the difficult part. Bikes are much better at self-stabilizing than legs. The main danger (outside of going too fast, if you happen to have the training) is losing track of traffic. This isn't much of a problem on deserted night-time streets, but can easily be overwhelming during the day. Don't ever consider the bike when planning for daytime drinking. As for the law, it's good to have limits to drunk cycling, but it's important to have them tolerate a considerably higher BAC than those for driving.
  - wiredfool 4y ago
    I'm not drunk if I can track stand.
    - usrusr 4y ago
      I know I can't be sober if I try
  - tomjen3 4y ago
    Here is Denmark there is a BAC limit for cars, motorcycles, mopeds etc of 0.5 The limit for a bicycle is if you can cycle safely, and it is only a fixed fine. You can go to prison for doing it in the other cases (though you will typically not, for a first offence). The other advantage is that you can walk home with your bicycle if you are too drunk to drive it. You don't have that option with a car.
  - runarberg 4y ago
    The potential injuries from drunk biking is in a whole other league the the injuries from drunk driving. Most bike injuries can be patched up at you local clinic (or even your home; unless your injury involves a car; so safe bike infrastructure is essential in making drunk biking safe), whereas drunk driving can cause some pretty horrendous injuries, to you, or your victims. The two modes should not be compared.
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
rocgf 4y ago
Cycling drunk is technically illegal, but often unenforced in the Netherlands. You should see the thousands of obviously 'drunk' people leaving festivals on bikes, under the eyes of the police.
- rahkiin 4y ago
  Correct. Police prefer people drunk cycling than drunk in the car.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  You have to be careful about where you park you bike around drunk people. I locked my bike up in Leidseplein once, and when I came back, somebody had barfed on my bike seat! achenet: The officer will direct you to the separate bike lanes for Ketamine and LSD.
- achenet 4y ago
  It's okay officer, I'm not drunk, I just had a bunch of ketamine and some LSD.
- sebazzz 4y ago
  Fun fact: you can lose your car driving license if you are drunk when cycling. But you can't lose it if you don't have one!
  - interestica 4y ago
    Can someone easily renounce their drivers license in advance?
  - rocgf 4y ago
    In the Netherlands, that is not the case. The worst they can do is give you a fine.
grardb 4y ago
Do you get too drunk to ride a bicycle every time you go out for drinks?
- soco 4y ago
  The good thing is, "too drunk to ride a bike" happens much earlier than "too drunk". And while with a car some push it and still drive drunk (sometimes with horrendous consequences), a bike has this safety mechanism where they simply cannot be ridden when drunk.
  - feet 4y ago
    A bike also has the safety mechanism of not being 3000 pounds and the inability to easily drive through the walls of buildings
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    It's as if all bikes came with their own tamper proof drunk driver detector and drunk usage preventer: a built-in continuous driver balance testing system, even more reliable than a breathalyzer, and able to detect all kinds of other drugs too. Drunk tricycle driving and bikes with training wheels: now those much more inherently dangerous problems!
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Somehow the bycicles in Germany seem to lack such mechanism, given the state of some examples I have witnessed.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    That just isn’t true. I’ve cycled while extremely drunk on multiple occasions (which, to be clear, I think is a bad idea).
  - SauciestGNU 4y ago
    I am a practiced cyclist and an accomplished drinker, and I can tell you that I am able to operate a bicycle deeper into intoxication than I can reliably walk.
RWSen 4y ago
ANother anecdote from The Netherlands: when we go out to drink we go by bike so everyone can drink! Worst case scenario: you bike there and walk back again. You can't take a car with you when you're walking. Personally, while drunk, I lose the ability to walk straight before I lose the ability to bike.
- immibis 4y ago
  And presumably you can walk with your bike.
solardev 4y ago
You can actually get "biking under the influence" tickets in some places.
mmcnl 4y ago
It's not enforced in The Netherlands. Better to have drunk people on bikes than in cars.

DonHopkins 4y ago

The safe and comfortable boulevard along the Slotervart canal in Amsterdam that I frequently ride along into the city is not only lined with trees, but there are also lines of trees between the bike lanes and the roads on both sides, and separate dog walking paths and park benches in the trees between the bike lane and the canal, and big roundabouts with outer bike lanes at intersections! So cars don't mix with bikes, and bikes don't mix with pedestrians and dogs (and their poop). It's a really pleasant, stress reducing, smooth, green, cool, shady ride. https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3495859,4.8053688,3a,75y,74.04h,84.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sacdLAYrG6jsOhz6cvAUBiA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DacdLAYrG6jsOhz6cvAUBiA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D329.43054%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3495859,4.8053688,3a,75y,74....

vishnugupta 4y ago

Third reason, law. In an incident between cycle and car, the car is deemed to be at fault by default. Unless the cyclist does something outrageously stupid bordering on committing suicide.

microtonal 4y ago
IANAL, but actually it's even stronger. If the cyclist/pedestrial is at fault, the car driver is normally responsible for 50% of the damage. The reason is that a cyclist (or pedestrian) has a higher chance of heavy injury due to the mass of a car. The primary exception to this is 'force majeure', which is apparently exceptionally hard to prove [1] (the example that the linked page gives is someone pushes a person in front of a car). [1] https://www.anwb.nl/juridisch-advies/aanrijding-en-dan/aansprakelijkheid/voetganger-of-fietser https://www.anwb.nl/juridisch-advies/aanrijding-en-dan/aansp...
matheusmoreira 4y ago
> Unless the cyclist does something outrageously stupid bordering on committing suicide. Yeah, like riding a bike in the first place. Only thing worse is riding a motorcycle. "The car is always wrong" has got to be the stupidest traffic law ever written. Every single day cyclists and motorcyclists do straight up illegal stuff near me and I have to accomodate them because of stupid laws like that. They do absolutely insane stuff. I get anxious every time I see one on my mirrors.

wkjagt 4y ago

Another reason is that being really respectful around cyclists is an important part of driving lessons in The Netherlands. And I think you can fail your driving test if you pass a bike too close, open your door without looking if a cyclists is coming from behind, or passing over a bike lane at an intersection without looking. I am from The Netherlands and I only realized since moving to Canada that my home country is such a safe place for cyclists. I find it interesting that no one in The Netherlands wears a helmet when cycling and yet serious cycling injuries don’t seem to be a common thing, whereas here in Canada I know of multiple people that got “doored” or otherwise have been in a bike related accident.

habi 4y ago
> open your door without looking if a cyclists is coming from behind, Once you learn about the https://www.dutchreach.org https://www.dutchreach.org it's hard to forget it. It helps to avoid the not-looking-for-cyclists problem :) (It might even have been here on HN where I learned about it.)
- KineticLensman 4y ago
  The Dutch Rear has recently been added to the UK Highway Code [0], a mix of legal requirements and suggestions for safe road use. [0] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code
bluGill 4y ago
>I find it interesting that no one in The Netherlands wears a helmet when cycling and yet serious cycling injuries don’t seem to be a common thing Neurosurgeons in the Netherlands disagree with this, and are begging locals to wear helmets. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/10/neurologists-launch-campaign-to-encourage-bike-helmets-and-slash-brain-injuries/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/10/neurologists-launch-ca... I don't know how rates of injuries compare between countries, but that is irrelevant.
- diarmuidc 4y ago

antihero 4y ago

Just need a way to deal with bike theft. My number one concern is parking my pretty decent bike within view of where I’m sitting or not leaving it unattended for over five minutes. I’m insured, but I have a bond with my wheels! If anyone has recommendations for stealth theft detection/tracking devices I’m all ears.

MrFantastic 4y ago
Cover the branding labels on your bike. The thieves want to steal expensive bikes, not a walmart bike. I used white engineering reflective tape. They'd have to be very dedicated thief to notice to the Deore XT components. Plus, the reflective tape is very visible at night.
- olyjohn 4y ago
  Yeah... this is totally wrong, or maybe it depends on where you live... Here, cheap bikes get stolen all the time. I started riding my heavy-ass, ancient, steel, suspensionless bike that I had bought 20 years prior for like $200 from Target. Not even a pawn shop would want to take the bike, because they are cheap junk. It got stolen from me in less than a week after starting a biking commute. And yes I locked it up. The lock was cut right off. The thing is people aren't stealing them to always sell them. Sometimes it's just easier to quickly grab a bike when the thief needs to get across town for some other reason. When they get to where they want to go, they just ditch the bike. Sometimes I think some people just want to steal a bike for no real reason. In Seattle, I've seen gigantic piles with hundred of bikes in them just sitting in a homeless camp. They clearly aren't selling those bikes, as they've been sitting out in the rain for months, or even years now. And I guarantee those homeless camps aren't full of multi-thousand dollar bikes.
badlucklottery 4y ago
>If anyone has recommendations for stealth theft detection/tracking devices I’m all ears. If you have a bike lock/chain that can resist bolt cutters, you're probably fine for everything other than leaving it overnight. Casual bike thieves are looking for easy money and likely aren't going to bust out an angle grinder in the middle of the day unless your bike is obviously worth a grand+.

spaetzleesser 4y ago

"The second reason is that here, everyone is a cyclist. Going for groceries? Five minute bike ride, much easier and quicker than going by car. Kids cycle to school alone from a young age. Going out for drinks? Bike. Because everyone is a cyclist and there are cyclists everywhere, cyclists are equal participants in traffic and are treated with care and respect." that's how I felt in Munich. Bikes were everywhere and drivers were used to them. In the US in most places bikes are rare so drivers (including me) stop looking for them.

johannes1234321 4y ago
As somebody living in Munich and visiting Amsterdam from time to time: Munich and Netherlands are very different. From an American perspective Munich certainly is good, but Amsterdam is still a different league. If you got the chance go there for a while.
- mmcnl 4y ago
  Amsterdam is not representative of Dutch bicycle culture. Amsterdam is crowded with narrow bicycle lanes that are often shared with cars. The great thing about the Dutch bicycle structure is that it spans the entire country. It's not just the big cities. Every city, town and village has high quality bicycle lanes. You can easily bike around the country on dedicated bicycle routes in The Netherlands.

InCityDreams 4y ago

>cyclists are equal participants in traffic and are treated with care and respect. ...and you're absolutely royally fucked if you hit one, plays a part.

andsoitis 4y ago

My experience in Amsterdam is that the cyclists are exceptionally rude and dangerous to pedestrians.

ghaff 4y ago
I can't say I've experienced that. But there are a lot of bicycles which you need to be aware of as a pedestrian to a much greater degree than many other places.

Vrondi 4y ago

This is what is needed. Unlike coming upon a cyclist on a highway, in a blind curve, on a mountain road with a 45 mph speed limit. Where I live, there's no bike culture or infrastructure, and the rare cyclist in this setting strikes me as rather suicidal.

philamonster 4y ago

Couldn't agree more. Not going to get into philosophical/cultural differences between life in your country and America but it cannot be ignored the gap between a cyclist's mentality and the right-to-road mentality of the average car driver, even in supposed bike friendly cities, in the US. This fundamental difference in thought is reinforced by infrastructure and the type and size of vehicles that are pervasive on American roads. Just had another white bike memorial erected on my route to work some 2 months ago that stamps out any idea of either being able to commute to work safely again myself or that this gap in thought could/is shrink/ing. That said, I have seen and still see some questionable cyclist practices on these roads from type of bike, lane of travel, footwear (or gear in general), lack of helmet (or misfitting/unfastened helmet) and route choice though I understand, at least where I live now, there sometimes isn't a choice. In larger cities there was an unspoken agreement _most_ of the time between myself and vehicles in the road that we were "aware" of one another. I find sometimes cyclists being far too aggressive to assert that awareness on drivers here (or today?) where it could be an honest misconception that the person behind the wheel knows how to interact with a cyclist for any number of reasons. Full disclosure; former bike messenger in Boston, Philly & Portland OR, long-time commuter when not riding for work.

navane 4y ago

Everyone is a cyclist and therefore drivers are very empathetic towards cyclists: a couple hours later or earlier they were the cyclist, and the cyclist was the driver.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
This is a highly idealistic myth. Most drivers are not "cyclists a few hours earlier/later", and many definitely aren't empathetic. The split between bike lanes and car lanes, as well as the law favoring cyclists, should make that obvious. Cyclists even get away not showing their direction despite this being taught from early age.
- mrsuprawsm 4y ago
  My experience is the complete opposite of what you describe.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    That's cool, but the stats continue to show wealth causes increase in driving and people continue to live pretty far away from work. Most people are not going to cycle after getting home from work or prior. The few Amsterdam anecdotes in this thread don't weight up against the masses driving 20+ minutes and the high traffic roads being expanded again. Now add the many laws favorable towards cyclists and measurements taken to accommodate them. It's not empathy. It's saving one's own hide from causing a lot of harm, a sense of guilt and the potential lawsuit waiting to happen. There's no special empathy given to cyclists in particular, only universal respect towards any non-motorized vehicle and individuals (e.g. children, individuals with heavy groceries). Your experience is dispelled the moment you take an hour cycling to and from work. That's pretty easy for anyone not on a SDE salary.
    - dncornholio 4y ago
      Amsterdam is a pretty shitty place to bike if you compare it to the rest of the Netherlands. The point these posts are making is that you need dedicated infrastructure to get people to cycle. Roads need to be walkable as well. So NA's car centric infra is the cause. Not the cyclists.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> Because everyone is a cyclist and there are cyclists everywhere, cyclists are equal participants in traffic and are treated with care and respect Dutch cyclists are also more observant of the rules. In New York, cyclists regularly blow through red lights and cross walks going through wrong way and at high speed.

wpietri 4y ago

And my understanding is that this is a historically recent development, yes? That this bike friendliness comes from a conscious shift and a lot of hard work in the last few decades? I saw a lecture a while back by the head of the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition, who spent some months in Amsterdam and talked about this. It was inspiring to think how much was possible here with relatively modest changes. Changes which seem even more possible with the pandemic, as a bunch of streets here got converted to low-traffic roads.

michiel_ 4y ago
> That this bike friendliness comes from a conscious shift and a lot of hard work in the last few decades? The infrastructure and safety comes from a conscious shift and a lot of hard work, roughly starting in the 1970s. But cycling used to be the predominant mode of personal transportation until well into the 1960s; the average Dutch person simply couldn't afford a car until then. There are films of throngs of bicyclists completely blocking the road for cars, purely by overwhelming numbers. There were campaign films "educating" bicyclists about "their proper place on the road". (A short, easy example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTcQ9tSyUCs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTcQ9tSyUCs . It's a commercial, it's message is "It's no fun driving a car in Amsterdam; bring a bicycle!") Bicycle-safe infrastructure was as much about clearing the main road for motorists, as it was about making bicyclists safer, and relatively speaking, bicycles have dwindled in importance since the country started building bike-safe infrastructure; correlation, not causation. So I'm a bit uncomfortable when people mythologize the infrastructural revolution of the 1970s. Yes, impressive work was done. But it happened within a specific cultural and economic context that doesn't exist anymore.

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logifail 4y ago

> Kids cycle to school alone from a young age Unfortunately our kids weren't allowed to cycle to school unaccompanied by an adult until they reached year 4 and had passed their cycling proficiency test (mid-way through that school year). I've been cycling with my daughter to kindergarten for at least a year, she's fine with the cycling bit, it's the looking-out-for-other-vehicles bit that's not quite there yet :/ This obviously depends a lot on local road layouts, and unfortunately we have a junction more or less right outside the school and kindergarten that way too many car drivers come through at speed...

andruby 4y ago
What age are kids generally in “year 4”? I assume you didn’t mean kids of age 4?
- kuschku 4y ago
  The fourth year of school, the last year of primary school, is at age 10. Depending on region, children cycling on their own to school typically starts somewhere between ages 6-10.

jotm 4y ago

Wait, you can ride drunk? That's a point deduction on your driver's licence in other countries lol Tbf I stopped doing that because I fell a couple of times, last time really hard, too.

inerte 4y ago

I remember I learned this on a "Not Just Bikes" YouTube video, but I can't find it now, but it blew my mind how simple intentional things make a huge difference. It was about the car lane, curb, and where people bike/walk in the Netherlands. In most countries, the car lane is lower than the sidewalk, and when they have to turn, the lane doesn't change - no bumps, or elevation. A pedestrian / cyclist going from their space into the car lane has to usually face a down slope, so it's very clear the person is entering another area. In at least this Netherlands city or video I watched, Not Just Bikes talked about how over there the car goes into ascent, as in, the car is entering the bicycle space. So it's not as smooth, or convenient, or the same mental model as the other way. edit: found the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OfBpQgLXUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OfBpQgLXUc