7 ms·

Damn, I had some fairly old opinion of Doctorow where I disliked him for some reason or other, but I am definitely revising that. I thought this was a great art

Damn, I had some fairly old opinion of Doctorow where I disliked him for some reason or other, but I am definitely revising that. I thought this was a great article. I am certain “bossware” will accelerate the downfall of already shitty workplaces. Very happy to hear Amazon is doing away with it. Strongly hope their workers unionize anyway. What kind of employer nickle-and-dimes a worker’s bathroom breaks? Not a good one, that’s for damn sure. I used to see these job postings on LinkedIn for Crossover for Work. I was intrigued by the claim of $400yr salary. Glad I didn’t end up working there. Thanks but no thanks, I am not going to work actively oppressing already downtrodden workers. A quick search turned up this fascinating article as well: https://medium.com/@whistler_12777/heres-why-crossover-is-a-scam-78f2e867b3a0 https://medium.com/@whistler_12777/heres-why-crossover-is-a-... Fuck bossware. Fuck people who work to actively oppress others. Humanity for all, value of life for each and every person out there. Rant over. Thanks for the link.

Spooky23 4y ago
Doctorow is a professional activist. He makes good points and has a clear set of beliefs that he applies consistently, especially on topics like this, but gets a little overbearing if you follow closely.
- mbostleman 4y ago
  Yea, I suffer from serious oppression and inequity narrative fatigue. I couldn't really get past the first few paragraphs. Sure there is inequity between workers and their management. But first off, it's not always tilted towards management. There are many indexes on which we can measure how one party fares over another. But anyone who is moved to write about inequity only assumes a single index and that management is always oppressive and employees are always helpless and oppressed. Secondly, the longer I have been a participant of society and markets, I've come to realize that power imbalances are as affected by how much the participants stand up for themselves in the face of power grabs as it is how much other participants grab. But again, when inequity is described, those that grab are universally criticized for grabbing and those that allow it are never offered advice or encouragement on how to either resist or walk away. I believe the latter would be much healthier for society and markets.
rgrieselhuber 4y ago
Doctorow has always been solid on this topic.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
> What kind of employer nickle-and-dimes a worker’s bathroom breaks? I had a teacher in high school who would respond the same way (more or less) whenever someone would ask to use the restroom: > If you ever have a job that needs you to ask to use the restroom, find a better job.
- giantg2 4y ago
  There are some strict time-keeping requirements for bathroom use when it comes to certain contracts, like government ones. It wasn't too bad, but I forget the specifics. It was like it had to be less than 5 minutes, or you use your 15 minute breaks or lunch for anything longer.
  - TigeriusKirk 4y ago
    It's all an overresponse to the problem that a handful of people would spend half their days in the bathroom if there were no rules. The right answer is always to deal with the individuals who are the problem, but somehow it always becomes rules that make life worse for everyone.
    - jorts 4y ago
      100% - At my last company we had an unlimited sick policy. Wonderful for everyone - don't even question staying home if you're remotely ill. Well, it was wonderful until one employee was sick every Friday and Monday and some. We ended up having to adjust the company policy for two weeks sick time and beyond that required a doctors note. The employee continued their pattern and once they hit their two weeks of sick time off they couldn't provide a doctors note for further time off and ended up getting let go after continuing to call in sick. The company had benefits covering if folks needed counseling, substance abuse issues, etc... which were offered to the employee but they never took advantage of it.
      - kastagg 4y ago
        You didn't have an unlimited sick policy. You had an undocumented limit. Documenting it lets people know where they stand and protects them in the event they need to take sick time but the boss wants to punish them for it anyway. It also means there's one standard for everyone, rather than people being treated in a discriminatory fashion (you get three weeks, but Samantha gets one).
nopehnnope 4y ago
This is the unintended consequence of anti discrimination laws (and other laws, like those protecting unions, that defeat at-will employment). Easiest way to fire shitty employees is to document a bunch of technical rule violations. That will create a rock solid paper trail that will stand up in court. Otherwise, they will claim some kind of discrimination and it’s your word about their performance against theirs calling you a racist/sexist/whatever.
- unity1001 4y ago
  You talk as if the corporations havent kept squeezing more labor out of their employees throughout 20th century. Regardless of any laws and regulations. They would keep doing it even if anti discrimination laws did not exist. They may be using that for an excuse now. They would use another excuse to make people work until death if there weren't any such laws.
- helloworld97 4y ago
  That's some pretzel logic there. They can't arbitrarily implement/enforce rules without first disclosing them, and it looks bad in a court of peers if they start doing this haphazardly. I would actually say it's easier for them to get away with this in an at-will environment without these rules. "Position was eliminated" works pretty well (in the US).
  - IMTDb 4y ago
    > "Position was eliminated" works pretty well. Unless you also happen to be recruiting for that same position, or if your local legislation asks that you prioritise relocating your current employees in other jobs over firing them if their position disappears.
  - nopehnnope 4y ago
    It’s great that you think that, but what I described is what the government does (because of civil service protections) and what every sane HR department with a high legal risk workforce does. Any US employment lawyer would advise that you follow this practice.
hedora 4y ago
Read some of his young adult fiction, then get all gag-me-with-a-spoon over the coming of age stuff. (But then stay for the occasional afterward by Bruce Schneier…) You may enjoy Terry Gilliam’s The Zero Theorem. Peloton will eventually start climbing the STAC ladder (it’s literally their only remaining move). Between that, permanent covid mitigations and the office-space downsizings of the late 2020’s, Gilliam’s vision will be complete!
candiddevmike 4y ago
"Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I poop on company time"
- amelius 4y ago
  "Boss took big risks, so save that poop for when you get home."
  - nicbou 4y ago
    Boss gets a bonus during layoffs, and plenty of taxpayer help to survive downturns.
  - psyc 4y ago
    Ah yes, the Risk Clause of the Just World Hypothesis.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - beeboop 4y ago
    Yes, took risks with lots of money that he inherited or borrowed from dad
    - wussboy 4y ago
      "When I started this company, all I had was a dream and 6 million pounds."
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
6510 4y ago
Jeff Bezos is the urine man. He made his billions by banning urination. Everything depended on it.

Spooky23 4y ago

Doctorow is a professional activist. He makes good points and has a clear set of beliefs that he applies consistently, especially on topics like this, but gets a little overbearing if you follow closely.

mbostleman 4y ago
Yea, I suffer from serious oppression and inequity narrative fatigue. I couldn't really get past the first few paragraphs. Sure there is inequity between workers and their management. But first off, it's not always tilted towards management. There are many indexes on which we can measure how one party fares over another. But anyone who is moved to write about inequity only assumes a single index and that management is always oppressive and employees are always helpless and oppressed. Secondly, the longer I have been a participant of society and markets, I've come to realize that power imbalances are as affected by how much the participants stand up for themselves in the face of power grabs as it is how much other participants grab. But again, when inequity is described, those that grab are universally criticized for grabbing and those that allow it are never offered advice or encouragement on how to either resist or walk away. I believe the latter would be much healthier for society and markets.

rgrieselhuber 4y ago

Doctorow has always been solid on this topic.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago

> What kind of employer nickle-and-dimes a worker’s bathroom breaks? I had a teacher in high school who would respond the same way (more or less) whenever someone would ask to use the restroom: > If you ever have a job that needs you to ask to use the restroom, find a better job.

giantg2 4y ago
There are some strict time-keeping requirements for bathroom use when it comes to certain contracts, like government ones. It wasn't too bad, but I forget the specifics. It was like it had to be less than 5 minutes, or you use your 15 minute breaks or lunch for anything longer.
- TigeriusKirk 4y ago
  It's all an overresponse to the problem that a handful of people would spend half their days in the bathroom if there were no rules. The right answer is always to deal with the individuals who are the problem, but somehow it always becomes rules that make life worse for everyone.
  - jorts 4y ago
    100% - At my last company we had an unlimited sick policy. Wonderful for everyone - don't even question staying home if you're remotely ill. Well, it was wonderful until one employee was sick every Friday and Monday and some. We ended up having to adjust the company policy for two weeks sick time and beyond that required a doctors note. The employee continued their pattern and once they hit their two weeks of sick time off they couldn't provide a doctors note for further time off and ended up getting let go after continuing to call in sick. The company had benefits covering if folks needed counseling, substance abuse issues, etc... which were offered to the employee but they never took advantage of it.
    - kastagg 4y ago
      You didn't have an unlimited sick policy. You had an undocumented limit. Documenting it lets people know where they stand and protects them in the event they need to take sick time but the boss wants to punish them for it anyway. It also means there's one standard for everyone, rather than people being treated in a discriminatory fashion (you get three weeks, but Samantha gets one).

nopehnnope 4y ago

This is the unintended consequence of anti discrimination laws (and other laws, like those protecting unions, that defeat at-will employment). Easiest way to fire shitty employees is to document a bunch of technical rule violations. That will create a rock solid paper trail that will stand up in court. Otherwise, they will claim some kind of discrimination and it’s your word about their performance against theirs calling you a racist/sexist/whatever.

unity1001 4y ago
You talk as if the corporations havent kept squeezing more labor out of their employees throughout 20th century. Regardless of any laws and regulations. They would keep doing it even if anti discrimination laws did not exist. They may be using that for an excuse now. They would use another excuse to make people work until death if there weren't any such laws.
helloworld97 4y ago
That's some pretzel logic there. They can't arbitrarily implement/enforce rules without first disclosing them, and it looks bad in a court of peers if they start doing this haphazardly. I would actually say it's easier for them to get away with this in an at-will environment without these rules. "Position was eliminated" works pretty well (in the US).
- IMTDb 4y ago
  > "Position was eliminated" works pretty well. Unless you also happen to be recruiting for that same position, or if your local legislation asks that you prioritise relocating your current employees in other jobs over firing them if their position disappears.
- nopehnnope 4y ago
  It’s great that you think that, but what I described is what the government does (because of civil service protections) and what every sane HR department with a high legal risk workforce does. Any US employment lawyer would advise that you follow this practice.

hedora 4y ago

Read some of his young adult fiction, then get all gag-me-with-a-spoon over the coming of age stuff. (But then stay for the occasional afterward by Bruce Schneier…) You may enjoy Terry Gilliam’s The Zero Theorem. Peloton will eventually start climbing the STAC ladder (it’s literally their only remaining move). Between that, permanent covid mitigations and the office-space downsizings of the late 2020’s, Gilliam’s vision will be complete!

candiddevmike 4y ago

"Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I poop on company time"

amelius 4y ago
"Boss took big risks, so save that poop for when you get home."
- nicbou 4y ago
  Boss gets a bonus during layoffs, and plenty of taxpayer help to survive downturns.
- psyc 4y ago
  Ah yes, the Risk Clause of the Just World Hypothesis.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- beeboop 4y ago
  Yes, took risks with lots of money that he inherited or borrowed from dad
  - wussboy 4y ago
    "When I started this company, all I had was a dream and 6 million pounds."

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

6510 4y ago

Jeff Bezos is the urine man. He made his billions by banning urination. Everything depended on it.