7 ms·

This reminds me of the “no hello” proposal for workplace chat messages (e.g. https://nohello.net/ https://nohello.net/). It’s much less of a big deal for person

This reminds me of the “no hello” proposal for workplace chat messages (e.g. https://nohello.net/ https://nohello.net/). It’s much less of a big deal for personal communication, but I can understand wanting someone to just say what they want to say without a manual SYN/ACK first.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
spoonjim 4y ago
- civilized 4y ago
  Regrettably, calling people "autist" demolishes one's credibility to represent the way normal people talk.
throwaway290 4y ago
It's a feeler (IMO way more descriptive than "doorknob") that lets you bail if you don't want to talk. Without it you may feel obligated to listen or have to be slightly rude. With it you have a range of options like "swamped on this project, catch up with you later" or such depending on circumstances to avoid straining a relationship. In async communication it's unnecessary though, people might do it by inertia.
- mike_hock 4y ago
  Hey, you wouldn't believe who I just met in the elev TCP RST
BrandoElFollito 4y ago
I like the "hello" before someone engages in a chat because this way I can confirm that i) I am available to talk and ii) the message is safe (i.e. I am not displaying in front of 200 people and forgot to switch off IM). If someone just wants to send me an information, email is great for that. My personal order of contacts is snail mail → email → IM → phone → in person. Each of the steps is one order of magnitude of urgency greater than the previous one. There is probably also a cultural component.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  If you want to know if the person can chat right now, you can always say "Oh, hello. Do you have time for a short chat right now?" Every other time when you don't need to know that, you can still not get all the problems of the empty "hello" message.
  - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
    I always want to know that because I do not want to send messages when it is not a good time for that. Nor I want to receive any. A "hello" means it is "IM urgent" so it can wait for the moment I am OK to exchange. Like I said, this is also cultural - some cultures allow people to interrupt others, some not.
    - watwut 4y ago
      I don't want to wait there and stare in typing icon while you are typing and retyping and figuring out what you want to send. That is why hello is annoying. People are capable to talk immediately, but take forever to finish writing.
      - XorNot 4y ago
        The solution here would be for Microsoft to add a "hello will be ignored" option to Teams so I can just check that and have it look like Teams is saying back to them " please write more then just hello "
      - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
        It does not work that way in my place. You write "hello" and if there is no immediate "hello" back, then you leave this aside until there is. There is no staring at anything.
    - sowbug 4y ago
      August 21, 2022 Re: your messages in this thread Dear BrandoElFollito: You're rebuilding TCP over UDP. Chat apps are connectionless (or RESTful, if you will). What makes them productive, especially in the workplace, is the fact that they can work without all the handshaking that accompanies more structured communication like in-person, spoken human conversations. Nothing is stopping you from adding back all your binds, listens, SYNs, and ACKs to a protocol that doesn't need them. But it's a conversational code smell if you do. Sincerely yours, sowbug
i_like_waiting 4y ago
I had colleague that was 10x developer but 0/10 communicator, if he didn't receive separate first message with "Hi, how is it going?" without me waiting for his answer before requesting something, he wouldn't reply. It was such a dead end for getting things done (he was productive on his things, but blocker for everybody else.
- sowbug 4y ago
  I once worked with someone who got visibly frustrated when people didn't stop in the hallways to listen to her lengthy response to the phatic "how are you?" expression. She treated it as a genuine question. It was a weird hill to die on.
  - noizejoy 4y ago
    That can be cultural. In some places that phrase was typically only asked, if a truthful and lengthier response was desired. If that wasn’t desired, the greeting would be more like “Good day” or “Hello”.
QuantumSeed 4y ago
As a developer who occasionally gets pulled in to help with urgent support issues, I dread bare hello messages. It gives me too much time to imagine a down site or some other critical event. Asking the question up front spares me a lot of stress.
- Groxx 4y ago
  "hello" is impossible to triage. You should essentially never do syn/ack IRL. If you don't know precisely what the recipient is doing, you do not know what they are doing, it could be important. Always lead with info to help them prioritize things. Ideally in the first ~5 words, because that's all they may see in the notification. (this is also IMO why phone calls are terrible. they're the equivalent of "hello" over a channel that has no other message, so everything must be assumed to be maximum urgency or you might miss something truly critical)
- MrDresden 4y ago
  I practice BLUF (Bottom line up front)[0] for that very reason, and never send bare hello messages. [0] https://www.animalz.co/blog/bottom-line-up-front/ https://www.animalz.co/blog/bottom-line-up-front/
- pvinis 4y ago
  Just wait for the next message. 9/10 times I just don't respond until I get the actual request, then I say hello back and continue with helping.
krnlpnc 4y ago
I’ll add too that it’s better to end a work convo with pleasantries than to begin one. “Hey I’m blocked on xyz, thanks anyways how was your weekend?” Is far more pleasant than “Hey how’s the weekend? anyway I’m blocked on xyz”
matheusmoreira 4y ago
Completely agree. I think it's polite to greet others properly but it's rude to wait for a reply before moving the conversation forward. So I just write my greetings and then write what I need to say on the following lines, old school letter style. Works really well in my experience.
shafoshaf 4y ago
We have a no "Thank You's" policy because it re-opens the ticket which is really annoying.
- noizejoy 4y ago
  The argument might be made, that this is a problem with many (most?) ticket management systems. How difficult would it be to design a mechanism that facilitates humans being nice to each other, rather than making humans emulate emotionless robots?
  - account42 4y ago
    Even for other reasons, why should a comment automatically reopen a ticket? Maybe you just found some addtional details you want to record for future reference but which don't need any additional action right now.
- havblue 4y ago
  I'd think that the "thank you" gives finality that both parties agree it's closed.
twodave 4y ago
I don’t mind people saying hello, but also would prefer they then go ahead and state their need. I don’t always respond right away, and often times by the time I get around to answering the need is gone or the person is unavailable. I definitely don’t mind interrupting my work flow, especially to route somebody to the actual correct person who can help them with their problem, but I don’t like the expectation of a synchronous conversation, so a “hello” with nothing else will usually fall to the bottom of my list of actual concrete problems to address for that minute/hour/day.
jaza 4y ago
Bob, Mon 4pm: hey (I'm picking up kids) Me, Mon 5pm: hey (He's gone for the day) Bob, Tue 9am: can you check the logs for xyz... The number of times that this has happened, with certain colleagues of mine, over Slack. Ugh. Dude, if you had just skipped the really-actually-not-required-on-slack pleasantries, I could have already given you the information you needed, 16 hours ago.
throwyawayyyy 4y ago
Ah, no hello! There's a lot of that where I am. Seems... a bit much? Like, I can't spare a second to say hi back again?
thomasahle 4y ago
Can you write a slack plug-in that automatically replies "Hello, what's up?" back? That way you'd only be pulled into the conversation once there's actionable information.
- deelly 4y ago
  I imagine it will be like this: 12.00 - Hello 12.01 - Hello, what's up? 12.02 - (long text explanation with some urgent changes) (you just returned from another urgent 3-hours meeting) 14.40 - sorry, just read your message?
raghavbali 4y ago
Thank you for the nohello.net thing, I am usually pretty awkward when it comes to starting conversations and but I guess I never paid attention to why that was the case. The discussion on this thread clears out the impression I had that it is usually rude to directly jumping to the question/task. I got my queue! :)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

spoonjim 4y ago

civilized 4y ago
Regrettably, calling people "autist" demolishes one's credibility to represent the way normal people talk.

throwaway290 4y ago

It's a feeler (IMO way more descriptive than "doorknob") that lets you bail if you don't want to talk. Without it you may feel obligated to listen or have to be slightly rude. With it you have a range of options like "swamped on this project, catch up with you later" or such depending on circumstances to avoid straining a relationship. In async communication it's unnecessary though, people might do it by inertia.

mike_hock 4y ago
Hey, you wouldn't believe who I just met in the elev TCP RST

BrandoElFollito 4y ago

I like the "hello" before someone engages in a chat because this way I can confirm that i) I am available to talk and ii) the message is safe (i.e. I am not displaying in front of 200 people and forgot to switch off IM). If someone just wants to send me an information, email is great for that. My personal order of contacts is snail mail → email → IM → phone → in person. Each of the steps is one order of magnitude of urgency greater than the previous one. There is probably also a cultural component.

marcosdumay 4y ago
If you want to know if the person can chat right now, you can always say "Oh, hello. Do you have time for a short chat right now?" Every other time when you don't need to know that, you can still not get all the problems of the empty "hello" message.
- BrandoElFollito 4y ago
  I always want to know that because I do not want to send messages when it is not a good time for that. Nor I want to receive any. A "hello" means it is "IM urgent" so it can wait for the moment I am OK to exchange. Like I said, this is also cultural - some cultures allow people to interrupt others, some not.
  - watwut 4y ago
    I don't want to wait there and stare in typing icon while you are typing and retyping and figuring out what you want to send. That is why hello is annoying. People are capable to talk immediately, but take forever to finish writing.
    - XorNot 4y ago
      The solution here would be for Microsoft to add a "hello will be ignored" option to Teams so I can just check that and have it look like Teams is saying back to them " please write more then just hello "
    - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
      It does not work that way in my place. You write "hello" and if there is no immediate "hello" back, then you leave this aside until there is. There is no staring at anything.
  - sowbug 4y ago
    August 21, 2022 Re: your messages in this thread Dear BrandoElFollito: You're rebuilding TCP over UDP. Chat apps are connectionless (or RESTful, if you will). What makes them productive, especially in the workplace, is the fact that they can work without all the handshaking that accompanies more structured communication like in-person, spoken human conversations. Nothing is stopping you from adding back all your binds, listens, SYNs, and ACKs to a protocol that doesn't need them. But it's a conversational code smell if you do. Sincerely yours, sowbug

i_like_waiting 4y ago

I had colleague that was 10x developer but 0/10 communicator, if he didn't receive separate first message with "Hi, how is it going?" without me waiting for his answer before requesting something, he wouldn't reply. It was such a dead end for getting things done (he was productive on his things, but blocker for everybody else.

sowbug 4y ago
I once worked with someone who got visibly frustrated when people didn't stop in the hallways to listen to her lengthy response to the phatic "how are you?" expression. She treated it as a genuine question. It was a weird hill to die on.
- noizejoy 4y ago
  That can be cultural. In some places that phrase was typically only asked, if a truthful and lengthier response was desired. If that wasn’t desired, the greeting would be more like “Good day” or “Hello”.

QuantumSeed 4y ago

As a developer who occasionally gets pulled in to help with urgent support issues, I dread bare hello messages. It gives me too much time to imagine a down site or some other critical event. Asking the question up front spares me a lot of stress.

Groxx 4y ago
"hello" is impossible to triage. You should essentially never do syn/ack IRL. If you don't know precisely what the recipient is doing, you do not know what they are doing, it could be important. Always lead with info to help them prioritize things. Ideally in the first ~5 words, because that's all they may see in the notification. (this is also IMO why phone calls are terrible. they're the equivalent of "hello" over a channel that has no other message, so everything must be assumed to be maximum urgency or you might miss something truly critical)
MrDresden 4y ago
I practice BLUF (Bottom line up front)[0] for that very reason, and never send bare hello messages. [0] https://www.animalz.co/blog/bottom-line-up-front/ https://www.animalz.co/blog/bottom-line-up-front/
pvinis 4y ago
Just wait for the next message. 9/10 times I just don't respond until I get the actual request, then I say hello back and continue with helping.

krnlpnc 4y ago

I’ll add too that it’s better to end a work convo with pleasantries than to begin one. “Hey I’m blocked on xyz, thanks anyways how was your weekend?” Is far more pleasant than “Hey how’s the weekend? anyway I’m blocked on xyz”

matheusmoreira 4y ago

Completely agree. I think it's polite to greet others properly but it's rude to wait for a reply before moving the conversation forward. So I just write my greetings and then write what I need to say on the following lines, old school letter style. Works really well in my experience.

shafoshaf 4y ago

We have a no "Thank You's" policy because it re-opens the ticket which is really annoying.

noizejoy 4y ago
The argument might be made, that this is a problem with many (most?) ticket management systems. How difficult would it be to design a mechanism that facilitates humans being nice to each other, rather than making humans emulate emotionless robots?
- account42 4y ago
  Even for other reasons, why should a comment automatically reopen a ticket? Maybe you just found some addtional details you want to record for future reference but which don't need any additional action right now.
havblue 4y ago
I'd think that the "thank you" gives finality that both parties agree it's closed.

twodave 4y ago

I don’t mind people saying hello, but also would prefer they then go ahead and state their need. I don’t always respond right away, and often times by the time I get around to answering the need is gone or the person is unavailable. I definitely don’t mind interrupting my work flow, especially to route somebody to the actual correct person who can help them with their problem, but I don’t like the expectation of a synchronous conversation, so a “hello” with nothing else will usually fall to the bottom of my list of actual concrete problems to address for that minute/hour/day.

jaza 4y ago

Bob, Mon 4pm: hey (I'm picking up kids) Me, Mon 5pm: hey (He's gone for the day) Bob, Tue 9am: can you check the logs for xyz... The number of times that this has happened, with certain colleagues of mine, over Slack. Ugh. Dude, if you had just skipped the really-actually-not-required-on-slack pleasantries, I could have already given you the information you needed, 16 hours ago.

throwyawayyyy 4y ago

Ah, no hello! There's a lot of that where I am. Seems... a bit much? Like, I can't spare a second to say hi back again?

thomasahle 4y ago

Can you write a slack plug-in that automatically replies "Hello, what's up?" back? That way you'd only be pulled into the conversation once there's actionable information.

deelly 4y ago
I imagine it will be like this: 12.00 - Hello 12.01 - Hello, what's up? 12.02 - (long text explanation with some urgent changes) (you just returned from another urgent 3-hours meeting) 14.40 - sorry, just read your message?

raghavbali 4y ago

Thank you for the nohello.net thing, I am usually pretty awkward when it comes to starting conversations and but I guess I never paid attention to why that was the case. The discussion on this thread clears out the impression I had that it is usually rude to directly jumping to the question/task. I got my queue! :)