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So instead we see endless proxy wars where these three powers use other countries as battlegrounds killing other people.

by api 4y ago

brabel 4y ago
My half Ukrainian wife says that the US is willing to fight the war in Ukraine until the last Ukrainian.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  And Russia is willing to fight it to the last Dagestani, Ossetian etc.
- Isinlor 4y ago
  The fact that USA is doing anything for Ukraine is astounding all in itself. Russia is not even a remote threat to USA, besides nuclear weapons. Russia is a threat to Europe - Ukraine, Georgia, Baltics, Poland, Finland, Kazahstan. And still Germany and France would be happy to give up Ukraine whole to Russia if not for USA. Germany was happily making itself dependent on Russia and paying Russia to modernize their army. Germany was even bypassing their own sanctions after 2014 to deliver weapons components to Russia that are now being found in wrecks in Ukraine. All while Germany is deeply relaying on USA for defense from Russia. It's crazy that USA was so chill about it until Trump. As a Pole born and raised 40km from Kaliningrad oblast it's really weird that I trust USA more than I do Germany, France, Italy etc.
  - brabel 4y ago
    Yeah, completely agree. European countries are almost helpless without USA's weapons to defend them... they just thought they were too civilized to go to war again anytime soon, I guess, letting the USA bear the burden of actually investing in the military while they just did the bare minimum. But the situation between Russia and Germany is more complicated than that... Germany did not see Russia as the enemy as far as I see it even after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The large dependencies on Russian gas/oil/coal/etc that Germany incurred make sense when you consider that... they had a weird kind of debt to Russia for helping remove the Nazis from power and were working under the assumption that the only way to keep a big neighbour from trying to destroy you is to keep friendly relations with them, which I find is the right approach even when sometimes that doesn't work too well. The alternative of always seeing the big neighbour as a threat and with utmost suspicion (I guess that's Poland the and the Baltic states approach, as well as most of Ukraine after the Orange Revolution) is bound to lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy as that's obviously going to lead to hostilities with enough time (just try that with your suburban neighbours).
    - Isinlor 4y ago
      When a country is trying very hard to delete you from existence for hundreds of years it's very hard to not be suspicious of that country. Poland lost 20% of population in WWII started by Germany and Soviet Russia. Every fifth person dead. You may also notice that Poland and Ukraine are on perfectly friendly terms with Germany. Because Germany came to terms with Nazism and Holocaust. But Russia never gave up on their imperialism. It wasn't even until 2011 that Russia admitted that Stalin ordered Katyń Massacre despite clear and direct orders in Russian archives. It's really hundreds of years of Russia trying to subjugate us. Russia partitioned Poland in 1795. We've been subject to forced russification. Despite many brutally crashed uprisings and revolutions we did not regain independence for 123 years. Then after WWI we got almost immediately plunged in war with Soviet Union due to unsettled borders and them wanting to spread communist revolution to the west. Then we got attacked by both Germans and Soviets in 1939. Last Russian soldiers left Poland in 1993. Behavior of Russian soldiers did not change from WWII till this day. What my grandmother lived trough during WWII is happening now in Ukraine. Senseless killing of civilians and mass rapes of women and children. That's exactly what my grandmother remembers. It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like telling a women beaten by a husband that she did not make enough attempt at appeasing him. Even damn Pushkin "To the Slanderers of Russia" from 1831 describes Russian attitude today very well. Why rave ye, babblers, so — ye lords of popular wonder? Why such anathemas ‘gainst Russia do you thunder? What moves your idle rage? Is’t Poland’s fallen pride? ‘T is but Slavonic kin among themselves contending, An ancient household strife, oft judged but still unending, A question which, be sure, you never can decide. Which shall stand fast in such commotion The haughty Liakh, or faithful Russ? And shall Slavonic streams meet in a Russian ocean? – Or il’t dry up? This is point for us. Leave us!: Your eyes are all unable To read our history’s bloody table; Ye’re bold of tongue — but hark, would ye in deed but try it Or is the hero, now reclined in laurelled quiet, Too weak to fix once more, Izmail’s red bayonet? Or hath the Russian Tsar ever, in vain commanded? Or must we meet all Europe banded? Have we forgot to conquer yet? https://russianuniverse.org/2014/09/24/slanderers-of-russia/ https://russianuniverse.org/2014/09/24/slanderers-of-russia/ Even what you read in poems like Reduta Ordona from 1832 after November Uprising could very well describe today. Just replace Polish references with Ukrainian: https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/my-tribute-to-adam-mickiewicz/ https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/my-tribute-to-adam-mickiewic... When Turks beyond the Balkans are threatened by your bronze, When the Paris legation lick the feet of yours, - Warsaw alone your power hurls abuse at, Raises its hand on you and takes off the ‘hat', The crown of Kazimierz, Chrobry Dynasty of your head, Because you son of Wasil, have stolen it and with blood stained! The tsar is surprised - the Petersburg men shiver in fear, The tsar gets angry - out of fear die his courtiers; But the armies pour, who's God and faith The tsar is - angry tsar: we die, we'll amuse him.
- nradov 4y ago
  Yes of course. And why not? As long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight then it makes total sense to support them. It doesn't cost very much relative to our defense budget. The losses Russia is suffering will take them many years to rebuild, and will temporarily eliminate them as a conventional threat to our allies in the region. We get to see whether our weapons actually work or need improvements. And we are partially rebuilding our reputation as a reliable international partner after the debacle in Afghanistan. If the Ukrainians don't want to fight the war then they can surrender at any time.
akmarinov 4y ago
Where’s China proxywarring?
- acidioxide 4y ago
  Wars in Vietnam, Korea, Central America, Syria, just to name a few.
  - onetokeoverthe 4y ago

So instead we see endless proxy wars where these three powers use other countries as battlegrounds killing other people.

by api 4y ago

So instead we see endless proxy wars where these three powers use other countries as battlegrounds killing other people.

brabel 4y ago

My half Ukrainian wife says that the US is willing to fight the war in Ukraine until the last Ukrainian.

actionfromafar 4y ago
And Russia is willing to fight it to the last Dagestani, Ossetian etc.
Isinlor 4y ago
The fact that USA is doing anything for Ukraine is astounding all in itself. Russia is not even a remote threat to USA, besides nuclear weapons. Russia is a threat to Europe - Ukraine, Georgia, Baltics, Poland, Finland, Kazahstan. And still Germany and France would be happy to give up Ukraine whole to Russia if not for USA. Germany was happily making itself dependent on Russia and paying Russia to modernize their army. Germany was even bypassing their own sanctions after 2014 to deliver weapons components to Russia that are now being found in wrecks in Ukraine. All while Germany is deeply relaying on USA for defense from Russia. It's crazy that USA was so chill about it until Trump. As a Pole born and raised 40km from Kaliningrad oblast it's really weird that I trust USA more than I do Germany, France, Italy etc.
- brabel 4y ago
  Yeah, completely agree. European countries are almost helpless without USA's weapons to defend them... they just thought they were too civilized to go to war again anytime soon, I guess, letting the USA bear the burden of actually investing in the military while they just did the bare minimum. But the situation between Russia and Germany is more complicated than that... Germany did not see Russia as the enemy as far as I see it even after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The large dependencies on Russian gas/oil/coal/etc that Germany incurred make sense when you consider that... they had a weird kind of debt to Russia for helping remove the Nazis from power and were working under the assumption that the only way to keep a big neighbour from trying to destroy you is to keep friendly relations with them, which I find is the right approach even when sometimes that doesn't work too well. The alternative of always seeing the big neighbour as a threat and with utmost suspicion (I guess that's Poland the and the Baltic states approach, as well as most of Ukraine after the Orange Revolution) is bound to lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy as that's obviously going to lead to hostilities with enough time (just try that with your suburban neighbours).
  - Isinlor 4y ago
    When a country is trying very hard to delete you from existence for hundreds of years it's very hard to not be suspicious of that country. Poland lost 20% of population in WWII started by Germany and Soviet Russia. Every fifth person dead. You may also notice that Poland and Ukraine are on perfectly friendly terms with Germany. Because Germany came to terms with Nazism and Holocaust. But Russia never gave up on their imperialism. It wasn't even until 2011 that Russia admitted that Stalin ordered Katyń Massacre despite clear and direct orders in Russian archives. It's really hundreds of years of Russia trying to subjugate us. Russia partitioned Poland in 1795. We've been subject to forced russification. Despite many brutally crashed uprisings and revolutions we did not regain independence for 123 years. Then after WWI we got almost immediately plunged in war with Soviet Union due to unsettled borders and them wanting to spread communist revolution to the west. Then we got attacked by both Germans and Soviets in 1939. Last Russian soldiers left Poland in 1993. Behavior of Russian soldiers did not change from WWII till this day. What my grandmother lived trough during WWII is happening now in Ukraine. Senseless killing of civilians and mass rapes of women and children. That's exactly what my grandmother remembers. It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like telling a women beaten by a husband that she did not make enough attempt at appeasing him. Even damn Pushkin "To the Slanderers of Russia" from 1831 describes Russian attitude today very well. Why rave ye, babblers, so — ye lords of popular wonder? Why such anathemas ‘gainst Russia do you thunder? What moves your idle rage? Is’t Poland’s fallen pride? ‘T is but Slavonic kin among themselves contending, An ancient household strife, oft judged but still unending, A question which, be sure, you never can decide. Which shall stand fast in such commotion The haughty Liakh, or faithful Russ? And shall Slavonic streams meet in a Russian ocean? – Or il’t dry up? This is point for us. Leave us!: Your eyes are all unable To read our history’s bloody table; Ye’re bold of tongue — but hark, would ye in deed but try it Or is the hero, now reclined in laurelled quiet, Too weak to fix once more, Izmail’s red bayonet? Or hath the Russian Tsar ever, in vain commanded? Or must we meet all Europe banded? Have we forgot to conquer yet? https://russianuniverse.org/2014/09/24/slanderers-of-russia/ https://russianuniverse.org/2014/09/24/slanderers-of-russia/ Even what you read in poems like Reduta Ordona from 1832 after November Uprising could very well describe today. Just replace Polish references with Ukrainian: https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/my-tribute-to-adam-mickiewicz/ https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/my-tribute-to-adam-mickiewic... When Turks beyond the Balkans are threatened by your bronze, When the Paris legation lick the feet of yours, - Warsaw alone your power hurls abuse at, Raises its hand on you and takes off the ‘hat', The crown of Kazimierz, Chrobry Dynasty of your head, Because you son of Wasil, have stolen it and with blood stained! The tsar is surprised - the Petersburg men shiver in fear, The tsar gets angry - out of fear die his courtiers; But the armies pour, who's God and faith The tsar is - angry tsar: we die, we'll amuse him.
nradov 4y ago
Yes of course. And why not? As long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight then it makes total sense to support them. It doesn't cost very much relative to our defense budget. The losses Russia is suffering will take them many years to rebuild, and will temporarily eliminate them as a conventional threat to our allies in the region. We get to see whether our weapons actually work or need improvements. And we are partially rebuilding our reputation as a reliable international partner after the debacle in Afghanistan. If the Ukrainians don't want to fight the war then they can surrender at any time.

akmarinov 4y ago

Where’s China proxywarring?

acidioxide 4y ago
Wars in Vietnam, Korea, Central America, Syria, just to name a few.
- onetokeoverthe 4y ago