15 ms·

"It’s used to subsidize an untenable customer expectation. You leverage a broken workforce to minimize your genuine labor expenses." With the steady erosion of

by bragr 4y ago

"It’s used to subsidize an untenable customer expectation. You leverage a broken workforce to minimize your genuine labor expenses." With the steady erosion of the quality of the drivers, I don't even expect to receive my order in a timely fashion, in good condition, and without any drama from the drivers. I've essentially stopped getting delivery which is a bad sign since I'm basically the target audience: single, urban dweller, disposable income, willing to pay $5-10 premium to not have to pick it up from myself. No particularly noteworthy stories, mostly just a series of odd encounters. Probably the funniest (in retrospect) was the taco order where I could see on the app the guy parked the next block over, and I get a call from him like 20 minutes later that he's "lost" my order and is going back to go replace it. Well he finally shows up at my place like an hour late with a fresh order of tacos reeking of weed. So he probably burned one down in the car and ate my tacos, but at least he made good. Why he couldn't deliver my original tacos and go get his own, I will never know.

sascha_sl 4y ago
It's a thankless job, most of the value is extracted by the middle men (who realistically should be getting the least since they can scale to thousands of transactions like it per hour). I'd happily pay a premium if it went to the people doing the actual ground work, but that doesn't exist.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  https://delivery.coop/ https://delivery.coop/ https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2021/07/13/delivery-fee-low-wages https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2021/07/13/delivery-fee-... https://www.marketplace.org/2021/08/18/why-are-some-restaurants-shutting-the-door-on-food-delivery-giants/ https://www.marketplace.org/2021/08/18/why-are-some-restaura...
  - jlund-molfese 4y ago
    0 restaurants delivering to downtown Chicago, the second largest central business district in the world after midtown Manhattan. I’d be happy to pay extra for delivery and try out places outside of walking distance if I knew the money was going to restaurants and drivers. But for all their complaints about DoorDash, the restaurants aren’t making themselves accessible elsewhere. The delivery companies put in work that restaurants weren't, and aren't able or willing to do, and that's part of the reason they have such high revenue (all concerns about quality and sustainability aside).
    - rightbyte 4y ago
      > But for all their complaints about DoorDash, the restaurants aren’t making themselves accessible elsewhere. Isn't DoorDash's "growth hack" to fake cooperation with restaurants and have their drivers just pickup food and pay for it like an ordinary customer?
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    If I understand correctly, the delivery.coop site only seems to cover Lexington, Kentucky? It is a cool idea. Unfortunately it seems that only the predatory delivery apps have spread nationwide.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
I'm in the same boat. I used to get food delivered often, but ever since the proliferation of "delivery fee is NOT a tip", I don't think delivery is worth it. Picking up my own food only takes a few minutes and is an excuse to go for a walk. Furthermore the timing is more reliable and I can count on my food actually being hot.
- stuff4ben 4y ago
  Delivery is only worth it if getting a DWI is on the table. Literally the only time I get DoorDash/GrubHub/etc is when I'm drunk and shouldn't drive. A DWI ticket and the expense that'll incur is well worth paying someone a delivery fee. EDIT: I suppose I have to also mention that killing people by my drunk driving is also a good reason to use DoorDash. Just thought maybe that was obvious...
  - InitialLastName 4y ago
    - LewisVerstappen 4y ago
      Uh that has nothing to do with "valuing cars over human lives"? That just makes sense?
      - diffxx 4y ago
        Actually the original comment makes complete sense. To only give tickets for drunk driving essentially makes it so that drivers have blanket immunity from any criminal liability for their behavior, no matter how reckless, so long as they are not drunk on alcohol. By rarely holding reckless drivers responsible for their behavior, we are essentially incentivizing that behavior. From the car's perspective, the current law is great. Many people who would consider alternative transportation such as cycling or walking are discouraged by the fact that these activities are much more dangerous for you than driving. If you get hit by a reckless SUV at 40mph while you are in a car, you have a pretty good chance of surviving. Your chances of surviving as a pedestrian or cyclist are drastically lower. Rationally, many people then opt for the car (for me, must American roads are too dangerous for cycling so I only walk to get around even though I do enjoy cycling). This is a vicious cycle that ensures that cars will perpetually dominate our streets. I fear self driving cars (or an infinite series of failed attempts at self driving cars) are only going to make this worse. For all of the benefits that cars do offer us in our daily lives, from my perspective, it seems clear that the scales have tipped way too far in favor of the car. Different legal regimes are possible. For example, we could change the law so that by default drivers are assumed responsible for any collision they were a part of. In the case of a driver killing a pedestrian, the burden should fall on the driver to prove that it was the pedestrians fault. The current enforcement of the law seems to almost imply that pedestrians and cyclists are suicidal so if they die in a collision, it must have been their fault somehow. Surely we could require drivers to drive in such a way that they have very low probability of injuring anyone? Or would that be an unimaginable infringement on the rights of the driver (and car)? The beauty of a system that actually holds drivers accountable for the consequences of their actions is that we actually wouldn't have much need to enforce laws like speeding and running red lights because few would want to take the risk of losing their license if they were involved in a crash.
doikor 4y ago
I pretty much only use delivery for restaurants that have their own delivery service instead of through these apps. This does limit it to pizza places mostly but at least the owner/manager cares if you complain and actually does something to fix the issues. Thankfully there is no tipping culture here so none of the drivers expect to get tips. Obviously the actual delivery fees are just higher instead but the drivers don’t have to rely on the altruism of the customers to make sensible money.
walrus01 4y ago
For vehicle based delivery in cars... Apps like these are relying on people who've already sunk some huge amount of money into a car and are not doing the fully loaded cost per mile calculation of operating a car in stop-and-go delivery service in an urban environment. If you calculate the purchase cost of car, insurance, fuel, repairs/maintenance, tires, oil changes, depreciation etc, it's quite bad. The actual amount of money earned by the delivery person after subtracting the fully loaded cost of the car is often near minimum wage in some states. Much the same as Lyft and Uber actually.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  The cost per mile for the class of people making these comments is not the same as the cost per mile for the guy doing delivery work. You probably drive a nice new Camry or some other vehicle that is far from the "floor value for A to B transportation in a given mechanical condition" and will fall in value precipitously as it hits various milestones. The delivery driver has some 15yo car with over 150k on it where value is purely dependent on mechanical condition. You probably replace your tires when your mechanic tells you. These delivery driver runs them until they're bald. You take your car to the premium mechanic. The delivery driver has "a guy" who does 99% of his basic maintenance for cheap and only ever has big stuff done at the mechanic. These people (the ones who understand the economics of what they do, which is most of them) don't maintain their cars like techies do. They take a page out of the age old "pizza delivery" playbook. With the highly variable nature of distance driven and compensation these people are generally well aware of operational costs vs gross income. You kind of have to be.
  - walrus01 4y ago
    when I say that a delivery driver has sunk some huge amount of money into a car, relative to their annual income, it's probably proportional to what I pay for a modern japanese car. if you make $32k a year, a $4000 corolla is a lot of money. it is not at all the same economics as the actual historical method of pizza delivery by cheap crappy car, because of the greatly increased cost of fuel (while delivery driver wages are nearly the same now as they were 20 years ago), and the fact that the traditional delivery driver is paid almost entirely in cash.
dayvid 4y ago
Every time I've gotten food delivery, I regretted it. Late, cold and expensive. It's usually faster if I pick it up myself.
RHSeeger 4y ago
I stopped ordering from any delivery service that isn't directly the restaurant itself. Half my orders were wrong. I had one where the driver dropped off an order with a different name on it; clearly visible. I called out to him saying such, and he yelled back that it wasn't his problem, call the restaurant (clearly, it _was_ his fault, he grabbed the wrong bag). Nowadays, I just order for pickup and go get it most of the time. None of the delivery services care about quality _at all_.
skrtskrt 4y ago
> willing to pay $5-10 premium to not have to pick it up from myself You're going to have to pay a lot more. The model can't be sustained at this price. Once the driver pays for gas and (over time) wear and tear on the car, even with healthy tips this ends up being sub-minimum wage. We got used to that price when VC money was subsidizing it and gas was half the price it is now. Yeah you can read someone's personal account on how they are able to clear $20 an hour regularly doing delivery, but they have to employ all kinds of strategies to do so, including taking multiple orders at once, purposely ignoring orders that are unlikely to have significant tips, and completely ignoring entire sections of the city that aren't "hotspots" with tons of restaurants cranking through orders. Not to mention they are still probably undercounting the cost of wear on their car, and most people touting their delivery driver profitability are probably exaggerating.
- prvit 4y ago
  Shockingly, most food delivery people don’t use cars… This is the weirdest straw man. Scooters are cheaper to operate and faster if there’s any traffic.
  - pc86 4y ago
    Maybe most in large urban areas, but everywhere else 99.9% of delivery is happening in an automobile.
    - Mo3 4y ago
      Here in NL 99.9% of delivery is not happening by automobile haha
    - prvit 4y ago
      There’s also fuck all food deliveries happening outside urban areas.
      - spywaregorilla 4y ago
        Not true at all. It's stupid expensive in most suburbs but its definitely there.
deebosong 4y ago
That's a hilarious anecdote. I kinda wish when he called you, he was staring right at your window where you were observing his bald faced lie through your binoculars. I might watch a short series based on food delivery folks, customers, and the dystopian/ dehumanizing tech algorithms that set the stage for the context. Maybe it'd be wacky. Maybe it might just end up feeling like HBO's High Maintenance.
decebalus1 4y ago
Same here. I only get delivery if the restaurant has their own delivery operation. Never had a good experience with any of the delivery apps, to the extent that I've been wondering who the hell is using them and how are they still operating.
frostmatthew 4y ago
> I've essentially stopped getting delivery which is a bad sign since I'm basically the target audience Same, rarely ordered delivery pre-pandemic but then was ordering two or three times a month but eventually got sick of food taking over an hour to arrive from places only a mile or two away so stopped entirely (until discovering a nearby restaurant that does their own delivery and it's great - arrives within 20 or 30 mins and the food is always piping hot).
chaircher 4y ago
Oh my god it's the drama I can't handle. A notable anecdote for me was when one randomly shone a strobe light at me. I'm epileptic.

by bragr 4y ago

sascha_sl 4y ago

It's a thankless job, most of the value is extracted by the middle men (who realistically should be getting the least since they can scale to thousands of transactions like it per hour). I'd happily pay a premium if it went to the people doing the actual ground work, but that doesn't exist.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
https://delivery.coop/ https://delivery.coop/ https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2021/07/13/delivery-fee-low-wages https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2021/07/13/delivery-fee-... https://www.marketplace.org/2021/08/18/why-are-some-restaurants-shutting-the-door-on-food-delivery-giants/ https://www.marketplace.org/2021/08/18/why-are-some-restaura...
- jlund-molfese 4y ago
  0 restaurants delivering to downtown Chicago, the second largest central business district in the world after midtown Manhattan. I’d be happy to pay extra for delivery and try out places outside of walking distance if I knew the money was going to restaurants and drivers. But for all their complaints about DoorDash, the restaurants aren’t making themselves accessible elsewhere. The delivery companies put in work that restaurants weren't, and aren't able or willing to do, and that's part of the reason they have such high revenue (all concerns about quality and sustainability aside).
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    > But for all their complaints about DoorDash, the restaurants aren’t making themselves accessible elsewhere. Isn't DoorDash's "growth hack" to fake cooperation with restaurants and have their drivers just pickup food and pay for it like an ordinary customer?
- bee_rider 4y ago
  If I understand correctly, the delivery.coop site only seems to cover Lexington, Kentucky? It is a cool idea. Unfortunately it seems that only the predatory delivery apps have spread nationwide.

MichaelCollins 4y ago

I'm in the same boat. I used to get food delivered often, but ever since the proliferation of "delivery fee is NOT a tip", I don't think delivery is worth it. Picking up my own food only takes a few minutes and is an excuse to go for a walk. Furthermore the timing is more reliable and I can count on my food actually being hot.

stuff4ben 4y ago
Delivery is only worth it if getting a DWI is on the table. Literally the only time I get DoorDash/GrubHub/etc is when I'm drunk and shouldn't drive. A DWI ticket and the expense that'll incur is well worth paying someone a delivery fee. EDIT: I suppose I have to also mention that killing people by my drunk driving is also a good reason to use DoorDash. Just thought maybe that was obvious...
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  - LewisVerstappen 4y ago
    Uh that has nothing to do with "valuing cars over human lives"? That just makes sense?
    - diffxx 4y ago
      Actually the original comment makes complete sense. To only give tickets for drunk driving essentially makes it so that drivers have blanket immunity from any criminal liability for their behavior, no matter how reckless, so long as they are not drunk on alcohol. By rarely holding reckless drivers responsible for their behavior, we are essentially incentivizing that behavior. From the car's perspective, the current law is great. Many people who would consider alternative transportation such as cycling or walking are discouraged by the fact that these activities are much more dangerous for you than driving. If you get hit by a reckless SUV at 40mph while you are in a car, you have a pretty good chance of surviving. Your chances of surviving as a pedestrian or cyclist are drastically lower. Rationally, many people then opt for the car (for me, must American roads are too dangerous for cycling so I only walk to get around even though I do enjoy cycling). This is a vicious cycle that ensures that cars will perpetually dominate our streets. I fear self driving cars (or an infinite series of failed attempts at self driving cars) are only going to make this worse. For all of the benefits that cars do offer us in our daily lives, from my perspective, it seems clear that the scales have tipped way too far in favor of the car. Different legal regimes are possible. For example, we could change the law so that by default drivers are assumed responsible for any collision they were a part of. In the case of a driver killing a pedestrian, the burden should fall on the driver to prove that it was the pedestrians fault. The current enforcement of the law seems to almost imply that pedestrians and cyclists are suicidal so if they die in a collision, it must have been their fault somehow. Surely we could require drivers to drive in such a way that they have very low probability of injuring anyone? Or would that be an unimaginable infringement on the rights of the driver (and car)? The beauty of a system that actually holds drivers accountable for the consequences of their actions is that we actually wouldn't have much need to enforce laws like speeding and running red lights because few would want to take the risk of losing their license if they were involved in a crash.

doikor 4y ago

I pretty much only use delivery for restaurants that have their own delivery service instead of through these apps. This does limit it to pizza places mostly but at least the owner/manager cares if you complain and actually does something to fix the issues. Thankfully there is no tipping culture here so none of the drivers expect to get tips. Obviously the actual delivery fees are just higher instead but the drivers don’t have to rely on the altruism of the customers to make sensible money.

walrus01 4y ago

For vehicle based delivery in cars... Apps like these are relying on people who've already sunk some huge amount of money into a car and are not doing the fully loaded cost per mile calculation of operating a car in stop-and-go delivery service in an urban environment. If you calculate the purchase cost of car, insurance, fuel, repairs/maintenance, tires, oil changes, depreciation etc, it's quite bad. The actual amount of money earned by the delivery person after subtracting the fully loaded cost of the car is often near minimum wage in some states. Much the same as Lyft and Uber actually.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
The cost per mile for the class of people making these comments is not the same as the cost per mile for the guy doing delivery work. You probably drive a nice new Camry or some other vehicle that is far from the "floor value for A to B transportation in a given mechanical condition" and will fall in value precipitously as it hits various milestones. The delivery driver has some 15yo car with over 150k on it where value is purely dependent on mechanical condition. You probably replace your tires when your mechanic tells you. These delivery driver runs them until they're bald. You take your car to the premium mechanic. The delivery driver has "a guy" who does 99% of his basic maintenance for cheap and only ever has big stuff done at the mechanic. These people (the ones who understand the economics of what they do, which is most of them) don't maintain their cars like techies do. They take a page out of the age old "pizza delivery" playbook. With the highly variable nature of distance driven and compensation these people are generally well aware of operational costs vs gross income. You kind of have to be.
- walrus01 4y ago
  when I say that a delivery driver has sunk some huge amount of money into a car, relative to their annual income, it's probably proportional to what I pay for a modern japanese car. if you make $32k a year, a $4000 corolla is a lot of money. it is not at all the same economics as the actual historical method of pizza delivery by cheap crappy car, because of the greatly increased cost of fuel (while delivery driver wages are nearly the same now as they were 20 years ago), and the fact that the traditional delivery driver is paid almost entirely in cash.

dayvid 4y ago

Every time I've gotten food delivery, I regretted it. Late, cold and expensive. It's usually faster if I pick it up myself.

RHSeeger 4y ago

I stopped ordering from any delivery service that isn't directly the restaurant itself. Half my orders were wrong. I had one where the driver dropped off an order with a different name on it; clearly visible. I called out to him saying such, and he yelled back that it wasn't his problem, call the restaurant (clearly, it _was_ his fault, he grabbed the wrong bag). Nowadays, I just order for pickup and go get it most of the time. None of the delivery services care about quality _at all_.

skrtskrt 4y ago

> willing to pay $5-10 premium to not have to pick it up from myself You're going to have to pay a lot more. The model can't be sustained at this price. Once the driver pays for gas and (over time) wear and tear on the car, even with healthy tips this ends up being sub-minimum wage. We got used to that price when VC money was subsidizing it and gas was half the price it is now. Yeah you can read someone's personal account on how they are able to clear $20 an hour regularly doing delivery, but they have to employ all kinds of strategies to do so, including taking multiple orders at once, purposely ignoring orders that are unlikely to have significant tips, and completely ignoring entire sections of the city that aren't "hotspots" with tons of restaurants cranking through orders. Not to mention they are still probably undercounting the cost of wear on their car, and most people touting their delivery driver profitability are probably exaggerating.

prvit 4y ago
Shockingly, most food delivery people don’t use cars… This is the weirdest straw man. Scooters are cheaper to operate and faster if there’s any traffic.
- pc86 4y ago
  Maybe most in large urban areas, but everywhere else 99.9% of delivery is happening in an automobile.
  - Mo3 4y ago
    Here in NL 99.9% of delivery is not happening by automobile haha
  - prvit 4y ago
    There’s also fuck all food deliveries happening outside urban areas.
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      Not true at all. It's stupid expensive in most suburbs but its definitely there.

deebosong 4y ago

That's a hilarious anecdote. I kinda wish when he called you, he was staring right at your window where you were observing his bald faced lie through your binoculars. I might watch a short series based on food delivery folks, customers, and the dystopian/ dehumanizing tech algorithms that set the stage for the context. Maybe it'd be wacky. Maybe it might just end up feeling like HBO's High Maintenance.

decebalus1 4y ago

Same here. I only get delivery if the restaurant has their own delivery operation. Never had a good experience with any of the delivery apps, to the extent that I've been wondering who the hell is using them and how are they still operating.

frostmatthew 4y ago

> I've essentially stopped getting delivery which is a bad sign since I'm basically the target audience Same, rarely ordered delivery pre-pandemic but then was ordering two or three times a month but eventually got sick of food taking over an hour to arrive from places only a mile or two away so stopped entirely (until discovering a nearby restaurant that does their own delivery and it's great - arrives within 20 or 30 mins and the food is always piping hot).

chaircher 4y ago

Oh my god it's the drama I can't handle. A notable anecdote for me was when one randomly shone a strobe light at me. I'm epileptic.