10 ms·

Microsoft finally admits Xbox One sales were less than half of the PS4

dvh 4y ago
I have neither but I think the only objective measure is number of released games, no?
originalvichy 4y ago
The generational gap is insane. In Finland a vast majority in the PS3/360 days were in the green team. The next generation? It was rare to see anyone with an Xbox One. The pendulum swang hard. As a 360 user those days I saw some of the writing on the wall. Xbox E3 events focused hard on American features which turned the Xbox to a smart TV box. Aside from games we gained nothing for most of Europe. With the upcoming streaming revolution all you really needed was a Netflix app. Not the dozens of TV features made for NA based users. None of these features tied customers in and as soon as PS4 released people just jumped ship. Games rarely worked throughout generations anyway. So in summary: Xbox Live won over vast numbers of gamers to the new multiplayer console era, but in my geographic location people just jumped back to Playstation because PS Online gained feature parity.
- bombcar 4y ago
  People think backwards compatibility helps keep people on your platform - but it’s often the opposite. You have an Xbox and the next time you buy a PlayStation which you can use to play the games you missed, or vice versa.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
  I stuck to XB1 for backwards compatibility and Gears of War, but on the other hand I failed to see an obvious advantage to the PS4. What's the "killer app" of the PS4? Apart from exclusives, both seem similar. Both seem to be considerably worse as a media box compared to the good old 360 with it's magnificent built-in DLNA compatibility and CD-ripping.
  - Ralfp 4y ago
    PS4 killer app was option to buy bare bones ps4 + gamepad package vs Xbone taking forever to enter some european markets and insisting for so long that I asolutely need to pay much more because only bundle on market is one with Kinect I have zero interest of using. It also had very strob library of exclusives. If somebody told me I’ll spend 400h in front of TV playing souls game I would’ve laughted them off, but Bloodborne did it. They also had other strong titles like Uncharted, Horizon, Last of Us.
  - jaroniscaring 4y ago
    The killer app was definitely the exclusives, no amount of features would make up for missing out on playing a lot of the best games in that time period.
  - anotherman554 4y ago
    PS4 is a gaming device with similar hardware, the "killer app" is going to be a game. It seemed to me that Sony invested a lot more than Microsoft in making games during the PS4 era. Microsoft seemed to think Gears of War and Halo were "good enough" while Sony was producing a lot more exclusives. Microsoft must have realized they were getting slaughtered due to lack of games since they started buying gaming studios towards the end of this era.
  - adamdusty 4y ago
    Killer apps for me: Games was HZD and Spiderman. Hardware was rechargeable controller, and the PS4 itself. All my friends' xboxs would get stuck updating and they would have to force restart several times. Nothing like that has happened to me on my PS4.
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    Remember that at launch it was $100 cheaper and more powerful. Multi-plats on PS4 outperformed Xbox One almost always. Usually the PS4 version was 1080p native, Xbox One 900p. Plus storage could be easily upgraded with a screwdriver. And you got the exclusives too. All of the Xbox One's benefits mainly came later when they added backwards compatibility, 4K Blu-ray support, Game Pass etc.
  - 4y ago
- coldpie 4y ago
  We didn't want those features in NA, either. It was a ton of really bad direction from the top. Execs weren't really sure why they were in the gaming business at all[1], so Matrick tried to branch the division out into other areas: a focus on OTA TV (no one under 40 who games watches OTA TV); bundling Kinect; leaping into the locked in digital-sales-only model way too early. It was really demoralizing for the Xbox team and definitely lost them the generation. They seem to have recovered for the Series generation. [1] https://www.gamespot.com/articles/phil-spencer-is-exactly-who-you-think-he-is/1100-6468846/ https://www.gamespot.com/articles/phil-spencer-is-exactly-wh...
- manojlds 4y ago
  Wasn't Xbox One defined by the massive backlash to its TV features, Kinect etc and Microsoft had to backtrack hard? It's not a Finland only thing you are seeing. Xbox is of course a American favourite but it faced the brunt there as well. Not to mention that momentum was clearly with Sony towards end of the PS3/360 era and Microsoft killed all their momentum with the reveal. The results that we saw with PS4 and Xbox One are clear.
  - tjpnz 4y ago
    Don't forget Don Mattrick's behaviour during E3 2013. The arrogance and utter disdain shown towards gamers is the stuff of legend.
- green-eclipse 4y ago
  Can you explain what you mean by the "green team" phrase? Not familiar and google searches are not clearing it up. Thanks.
  - chucksta 4y ago
    xbox is logo green, playstation is blue
    - green-eclipse 4y ago
      Ahh got it, thank you.
  - choudharism 4y ago
    It means they were on the Microsoft / Xbox side (Xbox is heavily green colour-branded)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- beowulfey 4y ago
  Xbox stopped focusing on exclusive games (admittedly a benefit to PC players!) and tried to make the Xbox an all-in-one TV box. Honestly, I think the rise of smart TVs with all the same apps did them in the most though. The idea was good at some level, but they didn’t forsee TVs themselves becoming a competitor.
  - manderley 4y ago
    There were plenty of really cheap streaming boxes and sticks even at the time, an HDMI input for cable TV not being the future was very obvious in 2013.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    It makes sense looking at the previous generation - I know that I bought a PS3 because it was also a blu-ray player so I can see Xbox wanting to take advantage of that.
- wccrawford 4y ago
  They lost a lot of customers on the "you won't own the game on your disc" debacle, too. The idea that the publisher would get a portion of every resale of a game, even on disc, really pissed people off. The publisher was even able to deny the resale! Who thought that was going to please the end user? It's so customer-hostile that I couldn't believe they said it out loud, let alone at a major conference. https://gamingbolt.com/xbox-one-publishers-will-decide-on-resale-lending-of-games https://gamingbolt.com/xbox-one-publishers-will-decide-on-re...
  - coldpie 4y ago
    This one is really fascinating. Now, ten years later, physical sales are trending towards nil, and all digital sales are permanent with no resale at all. They had their eye on the future, possibly even a better future than the one we ended up with, but they were too early with it. And the messaging was absolutely godawful, as you say.
amelius 4y ago
Isn't this basic information that every shareholder already was supposed to know?
- Tarsul 4y ago
  MS stopped releasing those figures. Their official reasoning was that it doesn't really matter since the money is in the software (true). The real reason IMO was because they were embarrassed.
- green-eclipse 4y ago
  Is every HN reader a Microsoft or Sony shareholder?
  - amelius 4y ago
    No, but it would leak to the press soon enough.
- KoftaBob 4y ago
  While companies are required to report certain financial numbers, they don't necessarily need to break down sales of specific products within subdivisions. In other words, Microsoft may be required to report revenue from their gaming division, but that doesn't mean they're required to specifically report how many Xbox One consoles were sold.
dijit 4y ago
I think most game developers had an eye for this info already. PS4 was double of Xbox active users for the division. PC was more inline with Xbox, and a lot different from what Steam said it was..
spywaregorilla 4y ago
Consoles seem like a dumb idea to me. They were great when split screen was the main form of multiplayer. Now multiplayer has largely moved online. Finding local co-op / competitive games is kind of hard, and of the few that still come out, few of them are console specific. If you're colocated with your friends, playing together may not be possible unless you want to bring along another console and hook it up to another tv. The switch being an outlier on multiple points here. Laptops are fine enough to bring along though and laptops are capable of playing pretty much everything. Paying for the ability to play online sucks. Controllers are now largely PC compatible. Lots of games are moving off physical media. Prices tend to be better for PC games. Media is transferable to a new PC. Modding. Updates are quicker. People like to talk about how consoles are simpler but... I think that's stupid. People got caught up in dumb PC master race memes about hardware nerds getting the absolute best graphics performance possible and missed the fact that its not that hard to make a competent pc that will do just fine for a very long time for comparable prices to a console. And, it's a computer!
- coldpie 4y ago
  I turn on my console and it plays games. I'm not messing around with maintaining yet another PC and all those headaches.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    Why can't you turn on your pc and play games?
    - ghaff 4y ago
      I think there was a big difference between the care and feeding of a Windows system and a console. Not that I really use a Windows machine at this point, but my sense is that there's not a big gap these days.
    - coldpie 4y ago
      Driver updates. OS updates. Driver update broke HDMI. OS update broke my controller config. Steam update broke my controller config. Bluetooth controller randomly unpairs every other week. Game picks the wrong sound device so now it's coming out of the TV instead of my wireless headphones. Some game doesn't work with gamepad so I guess I need a wireless kb/m now, too. Oop game lost focus because of a Chrome update dialog, guess I need to alt-tab back into it, shit the keyboard batteries are dead... PC gaming sucks.
willcipriano 4y ago
No exclusives seals the deal for me. I already have a gaming PC so I'm not missing out on anything by not buying the new Xbox.
- izzydata 4y ago
  They make money by selling software and not hardware so this was part of their intent. Windows PCs are a Microsoft gaming platform.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Bloodborne became the reason for me to get a ps4 (albeit a bit late). For new-gen though, I'm less persuaded so far, particularly when many titles are still available on the previous (e.g. Elden Ring). The next batch of exclusives will be a more decisive factor.
yardie 4y ago
This mostly tracks with my experience. We have a PS4 and XB1. Except for a few exclusive titles (ie Cuphead) the XB1 just sat on our shelf collecting dust. The experience between the 2 just didn't seem compelling enough to play on the XB1 that often. The 2 consoles are probably my last. I'm all in on XGPU. It finally gave me a reason to plug the XB1 in again. Now I can play current gen games on a 7yo XB1. And on my Macbook. And hopefully on my iPhone. I'm no longer tied to a TV at home. I also don't need to purchase more gaming hardware. If Microsoft can leverage their cloud products even more they may lose the console war and win online and cloud gaming.
tnolet 4y ago
Had Xbox360, XBone and now series X. The 360 and series X are amazing. The main gripe for XBone was half the features didn’t work in Europe and for some reason the UI was terribly sluggish.
DrBazza 4y ago
I stopped knowingly buying all things Sony because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk... That made me switch to the XBox One, and I was quite happy with it. I've not knowingly paid directly for anything Sony. Indirectly, I've watched Spiderman on cable, so I expect my cable provider paid them pennies out of my monthly fee.
- ziddoap 4y ago
  A quick ctrl+f on that Cinavia wiki page doesn't have any matches for Sony. Could you enlighten me on what relevance Cinavia has, specific to Sony? Xbox also does DRM, is there a reason why you are okay with that DRM?
  - DrBazza 4y ago
    Cinavia was stuffed into the PS2 (or PS3?) with no publicity, as part of the increasing blu-ray DRM and advertised as as blu-ray player that actually wouldn't play some legitimate blu-rays. (and blu-ray was a Sony invention - https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00017948 https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00017948)
- green-eclipse 4y ago
  Microsoft has also done an incredible amount of extremely shady stuff in their long history. Neither side is pure as the driven snow.
hiidrew 4y ago
This checks out. PS has mostly all the exclusives anybody would care about. Anything Xbox exclusive is likely available on PC. also PS5 related—I'm still appalled that a proper web browser was not included.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Their answer to this today is a strong subscription model for either console or PC. For "lifestyle" gamers it's probably the most attractive option.
jmpman 4y ago
The 360 had the best user interface. The jump to metro+Kinect was a bozo move. Sticking with Metro still pisses me off anytime I play Xbox. The reason I play Xbox is to escape my day to day work, and now it just feels like I’m a Windows admin. When I play Halo once a month, the thing still needs to update, even though I’ve told it to automatically update in the background - wth? That’s not the experience I want. Don’t get my started on how difficult it is to get multiplayer working, and then we screw around for 10 minutes because someone’s headphones or microphone isn’t working, because Microsoft decided to force non standard hardware. The Microsoft headsets are great, but you always have one friend whose wife bought them some buggy turtle beach headset for Xmas. Literally Halo and my friend network are the only thing keeping me on the Xbox platform, and they can’t even get Halo online coop multiplayer working - ? 8 months ? Microsoft should just make their in house developed games free at this point. I’m not paying for gamepass. Their games should be included in Xbox live.

dvh 4y ago

I have neither but I think the only objective measure is number of released games, no?

The generational gap is insane. In Finland a vast majority in the PS3/360 days were in the green team. The next generation? It was rare to see anyone with an Xbox One. The pendulum swang hard. As a 360 user those days I saw some of the writing on the wall. Xbox E3 events focused hard on American features which turned the Xbox to a smart TV box. Aside from games we gained nothing for most of Europe. With the upcoming streaming revolution all you really needed was a Netflix app. Not the dozens of TV features made for NA based users. None of these features tied customers in and as soon as PS4 released people just jumped ship. Games rarely worked throughout generations anyway. So in summary: Xbox Live won over vast numbers of gamers to the new multiplayer console era, but in my geographic location people just jumped back to Playstation because PS Online gained feature parity.

bombcar 4y ago
People think backwards compatibility helps keep people on your platform - but it’s often the opposite. You have an Xbox and the next time you buy a PlayStation which you can use to play the games you missed, or vice versa.
2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
I stuck to XB1 for backwards compatibility and Gears of War, but on the other hand I failed to see an obvious advantage to the PS4. What's the "killer app" of the PS4? Apart from exclusives, both seem similar. Both seem to be considerably worse as a media box compared to the good old 360 with it's magnificent built-in DLNA compatibility and CD-ripping.
- Ralfp 4y ago
  PS4 killer app was option to buy bare bones ps4 + gamepad package vs Xbone taking forever to enter some european markets and insisting for so long that I asolutely need to pay much more because only bundle on market is one with Kinect I have zero interest of using. It also had very strob library of exclusives. If somebody told me I’ll spend 400h in front of TV playing souls game I would’ve laughted them off, but Bloodborne did it. They also had other strong titles like Uncharted, Horizon, Last of Us.
- jaroniscaring 4y ago
  The killer app was definitely the exclusives, no amount of features would make up for missing out on playing a lot of the best games in that time period.
- anotherman554 4y ago
  PS4 is a gaming device with similar hardware, the "killer app" is going to be a game. It seemed to me that Sony invested a lot more than Microsoft in making games during the PS4 era. Microsoft seemed to think Gears of War and Halo were "good enough" while Sony was producing a lot more exclusives. Microsoft must have realized they were getting slaughtered due to lack of games since they started buying gaming studios towards the end of this era.
- adamdusty 4y ago
  Killer apps for me: Games was HZD and Spiderman. Hardware was rechargeable controller, and the PS4 itself. All my friends' xboxs would get stuck updating and they would have to force restart several times. Nothing like that has happened to me on my PS4.
- goosedragons 4y ago
  Remember that at launch it was $100 cheaper and more powerful. Multi-plats on PS4 outperformed Xbox One almost always. Usually the PS4 version was 1080p native, Xbox One 900p. Plus storage could be easily upgraded with a screwdriver. And you got the exclusives too. All of the Xbox One's benefits mainly came later when they added backwards compatibility, 4K Blu-ray support, Game Pass etc.
- 4y ago
coldpie 4y ago
We didn't want those features in NA, either. It was a ton of really bad direction from the top. Execs weren't really sure why they were in the gaming business at all[1], so Matrick tried to branch the division out into other areas: a focus on OTA TV (no one under 40 who games watches OTA TV); bundling Kinect; leaping into the locked in digital-sales-only model way too early. It was really demoralizing for the Xbox team and definitely lost them the generation. They seem to have recovered for the Series generation. [1] https://www.gamespot.com/articles/phil-spencer-is-exactly-who-you-think-he-is/1100-6468846/ https://www.gamespot.com/articles/phil-spencer-is-exactly-wh...
manojlds 4y ago
Wasn't Xbox One defined by the massive backlash to its TV features, Kinect etc and Microsoft had to backtrack hard? It's not a Finland only thing you are seeing. Xbox is of course a American favourite but it faced the brunt there as well. Not to mention that momentum was clearly with Sony towards end of the PS3/360 era and Microsoft killed all their momentum with the reveal. The results that we saw with PS4 and Xbox One are clear.
- tjpnz 4y ago
  Don't forget Don Mattrick's behaviour during E3 2013. The arrogance and utter disdain shown towards gamers is the stuff of legend.
green-eclipse 4y ago
Can you explain what you mean by the "green team" phrase? Not familiar and google searches are not clearing it up. Thanks.
- chucksta 4y ago
  xbox is logo green, playstation is blue
  - green-eclipse 4y ago
    Ahh got it, thank you.
- choudharism 4y ago
  It means they were on the Microsoft / Xbox side (Xbox is heavily green colour-branded)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
beowulfey 4y ago
Xbox stopped focusing on exclusive games (admittedly a benefit to PC players!) and tried to make the Xbox an all-in-one TV box. Honestly, I think the rise of smart TVs with all the same apps did them in the most though. The idea was good at some level, but they didn’t forsee TVs themselves becoming a competitor.
- manderley 4y ago
  There were plenty of really cheap streaming boxes and sticks even at the time, an HDMI input for cable TV not being the future was very obvious in 2013.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  It makes sense looking at the previous generation - I know that I bought a PS3 because it was also a blu-ray player so I can see Xbox wanting to take advantage of that.
wccrawford 4y ago
They lost a lot of customers on the "you won't own the game on your disc" debacle, too. The idea that the publisher would get a portion of every resale of a game, even on disc, really pissed people off. The publisher was even able to deny the resale! Who thought that was going to please the end user? It's so customer-hostile that I couldn't believe they said it out loud, let alone at a major conference. https://gamingbolt.com/xbox-one-publishers-will-decide-on-resale-lending-of-games https://gamingbolt.com/xbox-one-publishers-will-decide-on-re...
- coldpie 4y ago
  This one is really fascinating. Now, ten years later, physical sales are trending towards nil, and all digital sales are permanent with no resale at all. They had their eye on the future, possibly even a better future than the one we ended up with, but they were too early with it. And the messaging was absolutely godawful, as you say.

amelius 4y ago

Isn't this basic information that every shareholder already was supposed to know?

Tarsul 4y ago
MS stopped releasing those figures. Their official reasoning was that it doesn't really matter since the money is in the software (true). The real reason IMO was because they were embarrassed.
green-eclipse 4y ago
Is every HN reader a Microsoft or Sony shareholder?
- amelius 4y ago
  No, but it would leak to the press soon enough.
KoftaBob 4y ago
While companies are required to report certain financial numbers, they don't necessarily need to break down sales of specific products within subdivisions. In other words, Microsoft may be required to report revenue from their gaming division, but that doesn't mean they're required to specifically report how many Xbox One consoles were sold.

dijit 4y ago

I think most game developers had an eye for this info already. PS4 was double of Xbox active users for the division. PC was more inline with Xbox, and a lot different from what Steam said it was..

spywaregorilla 4y ago

Consoles seem like a dumb idea to me. They were great when split screen was the main form of multiplayer. Now multiplayer has largely moved online. Finding local co-op / competitive games is kind of hard, and of the few that still come out, few of them are console specific. If you're colocated with your friends, playing together may not be possible unless you want to bring along another console and hook it up to another tv. The switch being an outlier on multiple points here. Laptops are fine enough to bring along though and laptops are capable of playing pretty much everything. Paying for the ability to play online sucks. Controllers are now largely PC compatible. Lots of games are moving off physical media. Prices tend to be better for PC games. Media is transferable to a new PC. Modding. Updates are quicker. People like to talk about how consoles are simpler but... I think that's stupid. People got caught up in dumb PC master race memes about hardware nerds getting the absolute best graphics performance possible and missed the fact that its not that hard to make a competent pc that will do just fine for a very long time for comparable prices to a console. And, it's a computer!

coldpie 4y ago
I turn on my console and it plays games. I'm not messing around with maintaining yet another PC and all those headaches.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  Why can't you turn on your pc and play games?
  - ghaff 4y ago
    I think there was a big difference between the care and feeding of a Windows system and a console. Not that I really use a Windows machine at this point, but my sense is that there's not a big gap these days.
  - coldpie 4y ago
    Driver updates. OS updates. Driver update broke HDMI. OS update broke my controller config. Steam update broke my controller config. Bluetooth controller randomly unpairs every other week. Game picks the wrong sound device so now it's coming out of the TV instead of my wireless headphones. Some game doesn't work with gamepad so I guess I need a wireless kb/m now, too. Oop game lost focus because of a Chrome update dialog, guess I need to alt-tab back into it, shit the keyboard batteries are dead... PC gaming sucks.

willcipriano 4y ago

No exclusives seals the deal for me. I already have a gaming PC so I'm not missing out on anything by not buying the new Xbox.

izzydata 4y ago
They make money by selling software and not hardware so this was part of their intent. Windows PCs are a Microsoft gaming platform.
slothtrop 4y ago
Bloodborne became the reason for me to get a ps4 (albeit a bit late). For new-gen though, I'm less persuaded so far, particularly when many titles are still available on the previous (e.g. Elden Ring). The next batch of exclusives will be a more decisive factor.

yardie 4y ago

This mostly tracks with my experience. We have a PS4 and XB1. Except for a few exclusive titles (ie Cuphead) the XB1 just sat on our shelf collecting dust. The experience between the 2 just didn't seem compelling enough to play on the XB1 that often. The 2 consoles are probably my last. I'm all in on XGPU. It finally gave me a reason to plug the XB1 in again. Now I can play current gen games on a 7yo XB1. And on my Macbook. And hopefully on my iPhone. I'm no longer tied to a TV at home. I also don't need to purchase more gaming hardware. If Microsoft can leverage their cloud products even more they may lose the console war and win online and cloud gaming.

tnolet 4y ago

Had Xbox360, XBone and now series X. The 360 and series X are amazing. The main gripe for XBone was half the features didn’t work in Europe and for some reason the UI was terribly sluggish.

DrBazza 4y ago

I stopped knowingly buying all things Sony because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk... That made me switch to the XBox One, and I was quite happy with it. I've not knowingly paid directly for anything Sony. Indirectly, I've watched Spiderman on cable, so I expect my cable provider paid them pennies out of my monthly fee.

ziddoap 4y ago
A quick ctrl+f on that Cinavia wiki page doesn't have any matches for Sony. Could you enlighten me on what relevance Cinavia has, specific to Sony? Xbox also does DRM, is there a reason why you are okay with that DRM?
- DrBazza 4y ago
  Cinavia was stuffed into the PS2 (or PS3?) with no publicity, as part of the increasing blu-ray DRM and advertised as as blu-ray player that actually wouldn't play some legitimate blu-rays. (and blu-ray was a Sony invention - https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00017948 https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00017948)
green-eclipse 4y ago
Microsoft has also done an incredible amount of extremely shady stuff in their long history. Neither side is pure as the driven snow.

hiidrew 4y ago

This checks out. PS has mostly all the exclusives anybody would care about. Anything Xbox exclusive is likely available on PC. also PS5 related—I'm still appalled that a proper web browser was not included.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
slothtrop 4y ago
Their answer to this today is a strong subscription model for either console or PC. For "lifestyle" gamers it's probably the most attractive option.

jmpman 4y ago

The 360 had the best user interface. The jump to metro+Kinect was a bozo move. Sticking with Metro still pisses me off anytime I play Xbox. The reason I play Xbox is to escape my day to day work, and now it just feels like I’m a Windows admin. When I play Halo once a month, the thing still needs to update, even though I’ve told it to automatically update in the background - wth? That’s not the experience I want. Don’t get my started on how difficult it is to get multiplayer working, and then we screw around for 10 minutes because someone’s headphones or microphone isn’t working, because Microsoft decided to force non standard hardware. The Microsoft headsets are great, but you always have one friend whose wife bought them some buggy turtle beach headset for Xmas. Literally Halo and my friend network are the only thing keeping me on the Xbox platform, and they can’t even get Halo online coop multiplayer working - ? 8 months ? Microsoft should just make their in house developed games free at this point. I’m not paying for gamepass. Their games should be included in Xbox live.