5 ms·

Making sure no one is above the law is a cornerstone of our legal system, so I would argue it is in fact essential. Of course this is assuming there must be re

by kmos17 4y ago

Making sure no one is above the law is a cornerstone of our legal system, so I would argue it is in fact essential. Of course this is assuming there must be really strong probable cause in this case.

notch656a 4y ago
If "being above the law" is discretionary prosecution and investigation letting some people off the hook, then it actually is for good or ill a cornerstone of our legal system. FBI has broad discretionary ability to pick and choose who to go after, and ensuring that is done in a uniform and politically unbiased way could arguably trump priority of any particular person being prosecuted. It may be the case this is not politically motivated. But were there cases where investigations are politically motivated, I would much rather see those people get away than political bias of investigatory agencies being used to undermine democratic system, even if the criminals themselves were also undermining the democratic system.
- kadoban 4y ago
  If our leaders can break the law without consequence, it undermines everything. The rich and powerful in the US need to be under _more_ scrutiny, not less.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    There was definitely consequences. Trump was voted out of office as a result of the various crimes the people witnessed. Also there was an impeachment that failed to convict. Also I'm not sure the prosecution of any particular individual necessarily outweighs the need to keep our justice system politically unbiased. Again I'd much prefer people go free rather than FBI and other agencies being used in a politically biased manner to undermine democracy. I'm not saying that is what is happening here, although it could be the case.
    - kadoban 4y ago
      > Trump was voted out of office as a result of the various crimes the people witnessed. That's not enough. If it's all just politics, then it's part of the game. We need law enforcement to stand up and do their job. "Some people are pretty sure I'm a criminal" isn't the same thing as a court of law saying it. > Also there was an impeachment that failed to convict. That's barely a consequence. It did essentially nothing. > Also I'm not sure the prosecution of any particular individual necessarily outweighs the need to keep our justice system politically unbiased. The justice system isn't seen as politically unbiased by the people who will yell about Trump getting prosecuted anyway. If they're going to cry bias regardless, let's drag the evidence into a court of law and shine some sunlight on it.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        I understand the desire for criminals to face their crimes. The fact that this happens in the recent aftermath of the election of the leader of the executive branch, under which the FBI is contained, against his adversary just leaves a very politically charged taste in my mouth. I wish this were applied uniformly. Pretty much all presidents have likely committed crimes so I'd at least like to see them serve warrants against Obama for his approval of drone strikes that killed children and Bush for orchestrating the lying about WMDs in Iraq and subsequent carnage. Hopefully we can use Rico charges to put all current living presidents in jail, all the way up to Biden. It seems all too convenient and politically motivated that only the adversary of FBI's branch of government has a warrant issued. This kind of targeted attack while ignoring war crimes of former presidents IMO is even worse than no justice at all, because it creates a precedent for political targeting.
        kadoban 4y ago
        > The fact that this happens in the recent aftermath of the election of the leader of the executive branch, under which the FBI is contained, against his adversary who is now being elected just leaves a very politically charged taste in my mouth. In practice, that's pretty close to just saying no President should ever be investigated. > Pretty much all presidents have likely committed crimes [...] I would definitely be in favor of a special prosecutor being set up to investigate the current President, every time. Let's not wait until they're out of office.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    Two things are independently bad: (1) politically biased enforcement, and (2) powerful politicians not being accountable for crimes committed. Ideally we can avoid (2) without committing (1), but concerns about (1) shouldn't be brushed aside.
- cmurf 4y ago
  Being above the law is less like discretion, and more like a pardon. If you know something is prosecutable, but you decide not to on the basis of the person (being more important than accountability), you're pardoning.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Discretion isn't just about the subject but also about greater society and even the one investigating. Sometimes a fleeing traffic violator are let go not because they individually are somehow worthy but so that a chase doesn't result in greater risk to innocents. Sometimes a cop walks away from a riot because he'll get his ass beat if he tries to seek justice. Sometimes a brutal dictator is allowed to walk away into exile in the interest of greater peace of society. It's not as simple as you say "on the basis of the person."
codefreeordie 4y ago
- hvl2 4y ago
  Care to explain?
  - codefreeordie 4y ago
    - effingwewt 4y ago
      Oh come on now, this didn't survive a one second google search[1],[2],[3],[4],and their search us terrible. No wonder my bullshit meter was going off. [1] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/01/henry-cuellar-fbi-raid-election/amp/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/01/henry-cuellar-fbi-ra... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/09/16/former-democrat-linked-lawyer-indicted-for-making-false-statement-to-fbi/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/09/16/former-demo... [3] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-yee/california-state-senator-arrested-in-fbi-sweep-idUSBREA2Q02L20140327 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-yee/california... [4] https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/fbi/2022/06/22/andrew-gillum-federal-charges-indictment-florida-tallahassee-governor-marc-elias/7698488001 https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/fbi/2022/06/22/... Etc ad infinitum. Edit formatting

by kmos17 4y ago

Making sure no one is above the law is a cornerstone of our legal system, so I would argue it is in fact essential. Of course this is assuming there must be really strong probable cause in this case.

notch656a 4y ago

If "being above the law" is discretionary prosecution and investigation letting some people off the hook, then it actually is for good or ill a cornerstone of our legal system. FBI has broad discretionary ability to pick and choose who to go after, and ensuring that is done in a uniform and politically unbiased way could arguably trump priority of any particular person being prosecuted. It may be the case this is not politically motivated. But were there cases where investigations are politically motivated, I would much rather see those people get away than political bias of investigatory agencies being used to undermine democratic system, even if the criminals themselves were also undermining the democratic system.

kadoban 4y ago
If our leaders can break the law without consequence, it undermines everything. The rich and powerful in the US need to be under _more_ scrutiny, not less.
- notch656a 4y ago
  There was definitely consequences. Trump was voted out of office as a result of the various crimes the people witnessed. Also there was an impeachment that failed to convict. Also I'm not sure the prosecution of any particular individual necessarily outweighs the need to keep our justice system politically unbiased. Again I'd much prefer people go free rather than FBI and other agencies being used in a politically biased manner to undermine democracy. I'm not saying that is what is happening here, although it could be the case.
  - kadoban 4y ago
    > Trump was voted out of office as a result of the various crimes the people witnessed. That's not enough. If it's all just politics, then it's part of the game. We need law enforcement to stand up and do their job. "Some people are pretty sure I'm a criminal" isn't the same thing as a court of law saying it. > Also there was an impeachment that failed to convict. That's barely a consequence. It did essentially nothing. > Also I'm not sure the prosecution of any particular individual necessarily outweighs the need to keep our justice system politically unbiased. The justice system isn't seen as politically unbiased by the people who will yell about Trump getting prosecuted anyway. If they're going to cry bias regardless, let's drag the evidence into a court of law and shine some sunlight on it.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      I understand the desire for criminals to face their crimes. The fact that this happens in the recent aftermath of the election of the leader of the executive branch, under which the FBI is contained, against his adversary just leaves a very politically charged taste in my mouth. I wish this were applied uniformly. Pretty much all presidents have likely committed crimes so I'd at least like to see them serve warrants against Obama for his approval of drone strikes that killed children and Bush for orchestrating the lying about WMDs in Iraq and subsequent carnage. Hopefully we can use Rico charges to put all current living presidents in jail, all the way up to Biden. It seems all too convenient and politically motivated that only the adversary of FBI's branch of government has a warrant issued. This kind of targeted attack while ignoring war crimes of former presidents IMO is even worse than no justice at all, because it creates a precedent for political targeting.
      - kadoban 4y ago
        > The fact that this happens in the recent aftermath of the election of the leader of the executive branch, under which the FBI is contained, against his adversary who is now being elected just leaves a very politically charged taste in my mouth. In practice, that's pretty close to just saying no President should ever be investigated. > Pretty much all presidents have likely committed crimes [...] I would definitely be in favor of a special prosecutor being set up to investigate the current President, every time. Let's not wait until they're out of office.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Two things are independently bad: (1) politically biased enforcement, and (2) powerful politicians not being accountable for crimes committed. Ideally we can avoid (2) without committing (1), but concerns about (1) shouldn't be brushed aside.
cmurf 4y ago
Being above the law is less like discretion, and more like a pardon. If you know something is prosecutable, but you decide not to on the basis of the person (being more important than accountability), you're pardoning.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Discretion isn't just about the subject but also about greater society and even the one investigating. Sometimes a fleeing traffic violator are let go not because they individually are somehow worthy but so that a chase doesn't result in greater risk to innocents. Sometimes a cop walks away from a riot because he'll get his ass beat if he tries to seek justice. Sometimes a brutal dictator is allowed to walk away into exile in the interest of greater peace of society. It's not as simple as you say "on the basis of the person."

codefreeordie 4y ago

hvl2 4y ago
Care to explain?
- codefreeordie 4y ago
  - effingwewt 4y ago
    Oh come on now, this didn't survive a one second google search[1],[2],[3],[4],and their search us terrible. No wonder my bullshit meter was going off. [1] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/01/henry-cuellar-fbi-raid-election/amp/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/01/henry-cuellar-fbi-ra... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/09/16/former-democrat-linked-lawyer-indicted-for-making-false-statement-to-fbi/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/09/16/former-demo... [3] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-yee/california-state-senator-arrested-in-fbi-sweep-idUSBREA2Q02L20140327 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-yee/california... [4] https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/fbi/2022/06/22/andrew-gillum-federal-charges-indictment-florida-tallahassee-governor-marc-elias/7698488001 https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/fbi/2022/06/22/... Etc ad infinitum. Edit formatting