5 ms·

Just make it so anyone with an internet connection can transfer any amount anywhere else, online, without any transaction fees, within seconds. There, there's

Just make it so anyone with an internet connection can transfer any amount anywhere else, online, without any transaction fees, within seconds. There, there's your fucking fintech. I don't know what everyone else is doing.

vorpalhex 4y ago
No good. Money doesn't move instantly, and you need someone to handle disputes. Some reading: https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-alchemy-of-deposits/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-alchemy-of-deposits/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/no-payments-are-final/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/no-payments-are-final/
- falcolas 4y ago
  Not counting the myriad regulations that need to be followed the moment you cross country lines.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  > Money doesn't move instantly It will shortly (testing phase is in progress since 2022Q1). FedNow instant payment rails go live next year and payments are required to settle within ~8 seconds. Transaction cost the Fed charges is 5 cents, up to $500k per transaction ($100k while it shakes out initially). (Tangentially, [Transfer]Wise is very compelling for moving value internationally, and is instant in a lot of cases; they also plug into instant transfer rails in local currencies whenever possible) https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 (see citations at bottom of comment)
  - egypturnash 4y ago
    Oh wow, I just wrote a reply to the parent comment opining that the government should be providing electronic transactions instead of letting a handful of private companies skim a few percent off of every transaction in 75% of the economy. I'm looking forwards to this! (https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow, from your second link, is a description of FedNow that's attempting to explain it with less financial jargon.)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    So the flow would still be: You > Bank/Financial Corp > Fed > Receiving Bank > Destination right? Would banks still be able to hold transactions as pending until they do daily settlement?
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      No, settlement must be immediate (unless fraud, AML, KYC, US sanctions/OFAC, or a similar exception). https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/06/06/2022-11090/collection-of-checks-and-other-items-by-federal-reserve-banks-and-funds-transfers-through-fedwire https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/06/06/2022-11... (control-f “Immediate Funds Availability”)
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        Ah, I see it. For anyone following along: > The FedNow Service is designed for the end-to-end transfer to be completed in a matter of seconds, as described in the 2020 Notice. This means that the beneficiary's bank would agree, as provided in proposed subpart C, that it will make funds available to the beneficiary immediately after it has accepted the payment order.
- alexb_ 4y ago
  These are interesting reads - I wish HN had a save feature so I could keep track of them.
  - pc86 4y ago
    You don't need HN to save links to a blog.
  - hadrien01 4y ago
    I use HN favourites as reminders and read-later list
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Wallabag/Pocket is what you are after. "Bits About Money" is always worth a read imo. I knew of these ideas but it is both a clear explainer and a good guide to the "why".
- alexashka 4y ago
  Feel free to address what I've actually typed. You can address the imaginary person who wants to discuss instant money transfers some other time, perhaps.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    > Just make it so anyone with an internet connection can transfer any amount anywhere else, online, without any transaction fees, within seconds. I can only read what you type. You seem to be talking about instant (seconds is instant in finance) money transfers.
    - alexashka 4y ago
      We already have 'instant' transfers, it's called paying with a debit card at a grocery store. Now extend that to the internet, any amount (cap it to under a few thousand if you wish), no transaction fees (I already pay taxes). That'd be fintech, aka using technology to actually improve the finance industry for the people, but that's just me :)
      - ska 4y ago
        > no transaction fees (I already pay taxes). This connection seems ... tenuous. As you note, you already broadly have the ability to do this via debit card for most day-to-day things (with fees, for seller). What can't you do that want to?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        > We already have 'instant' transfers, it's called paying with a debit card at a grocery store. Actually not instant! Debit transactions can not settle for several hours, and even up to a few days (though usually much faster). Though your bank is typically able to say that they have the available money, settlement may not occur for quite some time.
humanistbot 4y ago
Tell me about your plans for fraud.
tmpz22 4y ago
No good, you need a capable party for KYC/KYB to ensure compliance with international sanctions, terrorist watchlists, crime investigation, etc. This is an expensive apparatus to maintain.
- alexb_ 4y ago
  All of these assume you need the government to keep track of who spends what money - something that MANY people would heavily disagree with.
  - pc86 4y ago
    Many people perhaps, but nobody serious or worth listening to. We can disagree on the extent of regulation and KYC requirements, but preventing people from laundering money is an objectively Good Thing.
  - refurb 4y ago
    I mean if you want any sort of enforcement of tax laws, you kind of do need that sort of traceability, no?
    - datavirtue 4y ago
      Get it at the point of sale.
      - tmpz22 4y ago
        We have a progressive tax system that taxes individuals according to their reported incomes. How does the PoS agent know the tax liabilities of the person purchasing the item? Should we have a flat tax rate for everyone?
matkoniecz 4y ago
egypturnash 4y ago
Also this transfer should be handled by a branch of the government - in the US, this would probably be a new Bureau of E-Bucks that sits alongside the Mint and the Bureau of Printing and Engraving as parts of the Department of Treasury. Running all this transaction infrastructure and dealing with fraud and whatnot costs money, but so does making coins and bills. There's no reason the digital equivalent should be for-profit business aside from "this is how it happened and now the companies occupying this niche have a lot of money to wave at elected officials who could deprive them of their ability to skim a couple percent off of 75% of the transactions in the entire US economy". "I don't want the government to know what I'm doing with my money" is not a valid objection to this plan unless you can lay out a convincing argument that a couple of entirely for-profit companies knowing what you're doing with your money is any better, and that they will not roll over and provide transaction records the instant the government asks them to. edit: oh wow it looks like this is finally coming in the next year or two, according to another reply to the parent comment! https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow I will be delighted to stop giving the credit card companies a few pennies of every single transaction I make, and return them to their original role of providing a line of credit if I want one.
- refurb 4y ago
  "I don't want the government to know what I'm doing with my money" is not a valid objection to this plan unless you can lay out a convincing argument that a couple of entirely for-profit companies knowing what you're doing with your money is any better, and that they will not roll over and provide transaction records the instant the government asks them to. My arguments are: - A for-profit company can't put me in prison - A for-profit company has an incentive to keep the government out of their business
  - egypturnash 4y ago
    Facebook just gave cops a dump of a teen's private messages so they could prosecute her for getting an abortion in a state that just made those illegal. That incentive to keep the government out of their business is working just fine. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/08/08/facebook-abortion-teen-dms/?sh=439a2ace579c https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/08/08/fac...
Ensorceled 4y ago
> Just make it so anyone with an internet connection can transfer any amount anywhere else, online, without any transaction fees, within seconds. No fees? Who is building this product and why? Why aren't you building it ... sounds like you'd get a massive percentage of the market?
zhoujianfu 4y ago
I thiiink it’s maybe finally sort of happening/possible with USDC on polygon? https://www.circle.com/en/usdc-multichain/polygon https://www.circle.com/en/usdc-multichain/polygon

vorpalhex 4y ago

No good. Money doesn't move instantly, and you need someone to handle disputes. Some reading: https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-alchemy-of-deposits/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-alchemy-of-deposits/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/no-payments-are-final/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/no-payments-are-final/

falcolas 4y ago
Not counting the myriad regulations that need to be followed the moment you cross country lines.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
> Money doesn't move instantly It will shortly (testing phase is in progress since 2022Q1). FedNow instant payment rails go live next year and payments are required to settle within ~8 seconds. Transaction cost the Fed charges is 5 cents, up to $500k per transaction ($100k while it shakes out initially). (Tangentially, [Transfer]Wise is very compelling for moving value internationally, and is instant in a lot of cases; they also plug into instant transfer rails in local currencies whenever possible) https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 (see citations at bottom of comment)
- egypturnash 4y ago
  Oh wow, I just wrote a reply to the parent comment opining that the government should be providing electronic transactions instead of letting a handful of private companies skim a few percent off of every transaction in 75% of the economy. I'm looking forwards to this! (https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow, from your second link, is a description of FedNow that's attempting to explain it with less financial jargon.)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  So the flow would still be: You > Bank/Financial Corp > Fed > Receiving Bank > Destination right? Would banks still be able to hold transactions as pending until they do daily settlement?
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    No, settlement must be immediate (unless fraud, AML, KYC, US sanctions/OFAC, or a similar exception). https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/06/06/2022-11090/collection-of-checks-and-other-items-by-federal-reserve-banks-and-funds-transfers-through-fedwire https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/06/06/2022-11... (control-f “Immediate Funds Availability”)
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      Ah, I see it. For anyone following along: > The FedNow Service is designed for the end-to-end transfer to be completed in a matter of seconds, as described in the 2020 Notice. This means that the beneficiary's bank would agree, as provided in proposed subpart C, that it will make funds available to the beneficiary immediately after it has accepted the payment order.
alexb_ 4y ago
These are interesting reads - I wish HN had a save feature so I could keep track of them.
- pc86 4y ago
  You don't need HN to save links to a blog.
- hadrien01 4y ago
  I use HN favourites as reminders and read-later list
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Wallabag/Pocket is what you are after. "Bits About Money" is always worth a read imo. I knew of these ideas but it is both a clear explainer and a good guide to the "why".
alexashka 4y ago
Feel free to address what I've actually typed. You can address the imaginary person who wants to discuss instant money transfers some other time, perhaps.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  > Just make it so anyone with an internet connection can transfer any amount anywhere else, online, without any transaction fees, within seconds. I can only read what you type. You seem to be talking about instant (seconds is instant in finance) money transfers.
  - alexashka 4y ago
    We already have 'instant' transfers, it's called paying with a debit card at a grocery store. Now extend that to the internet, any amount (cap it to under a few thousand if you wish), no transaction fees (I already pay taxes). That'd be fintech, aka using technology to actually improve the finance industry for the people, but that's just me :)
    - ska 4y ago
      > no transaction fees (I already pay taxes). This connection seems ... tenuous. As you note, you already broadly have the ability to do this via debit card for most day-to-day things (with fees, for seller). What can't you do that want to?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      > We already have 'instant' transfers, it's called paying with a debit card at a grocery store. Actually not instant! Debit transactions can not settle for several hours, and even up to a few days (though usually much faster). Though your bank is typically able to say that they have the available money, settlement may not occur for quite some time.

humanistbot 4y ago

Tell me about your plans for fraud.

tmpz22 4y ago

No good, you need a capable party for KYC/KYB to ensure compliance with international sanctions, terrorist watchlists, crime investigation, etc. This is an expensive apparatus to maintain.

alexb_ 4y ago
All of these assume you need the government to keep track of who spends what money - something that MANY people would heavily disagree with.
- pc86 4y ago
  Many people perhaps, but nobody serious or worth listening to. We can disagree on the extent of regulation and KYC requirements, but preventing people from laundering money is an objectively Good Thing.
- refurb 4y ago
  I mean if you want any sort of enforcement of tax laws, you kind of do need that sort of traceability, no?
  - datavirtue 4y ago
    Get it at the point of sale.
    - tmpz22 4y ago
      We have a progressive tax system that taxes individuals according to their reported incomes. How does the PoS agent know the tax liabilities of the person purchasing the item? Should we have a flat tax rate for everyone?

matkoniecz 4y ago

egypturnash 4y ago

Also this transfer should be handled by a branch of the government - in the US, this would probably be a new Bureau of E-Bucks that sits alongside the Mint and the Bureau of Printing and Engraving as parts of the Department of Treasury. Running all this transaction infrastructure and dealing with fraud and whatnot costs money, but so does making coins and bills. There's no reason the digital equivalent should be for-profit business aside from "this is how it happened and now the companies occupying this niche have a lot of money to wave at elected officials who could deprive them of their ability to skim a couple percent off of 75% of the transactions in the entire US economy". "I don't want the government to know what I'm doing with my money" is not a valid objection to this plan unless you can lay out a convincing argument that a couple of entirely for-profit companies knowing what you're doing with your money is any better, and that they will not roll over and provide transaction records the instant the government asks them to. edit: oh wow it looks like this is finally coming in the next year or two, according to another reply to the parent comment! https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow I will be delighted to stop giving the credit card companies a few pennies of every single transaction I make, and return them to their original role of providing a line of credit if I want one.

refurb 4y ago
"I don't want the government to know what I'm doing with my money" is not a valid objection to this plan unless you can lay out a convincing argument that a couple of entirely for-profit companies knowing what you're doing with your money is any better, and that they will not roll over and provide transaction records the instant the government asks them to. My arguments are: - A for-profit company can't put me in prison - A for-profit company has an incentive to keep the government out of their business
- egypturnash 4y ago
  Facebook just gave cops a dump of a teen's private messages so they could prosecute her for getting an abortion in a state that just made those illegal. That incentive to keep the government out of their business is working just fine. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/08/08/facebook-abortion-teen-dms/?sh=439a2ace579c https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/08/08/fac...

Ensorceled 4y ago

> Just make it so anyone with an internet connection can transfer any amount anywhere else, online, without any transaction fees, within seconds. No fees? Who is building this product and why? Why aren't you building it ... sounds like you'd get a massive percentage of the market?

zhoujianfu 4y ago

I thiiink it’s maybe finally sort of happening/possible with USDC on polygon? https://www.circle.com/en/usdc-multichain/polygon https://www.circle.com/en/usdc-multichain/polygon