7 ms·

Seems the complaint is not actually against e-bikes, but people breaking the law on e-bikes, like going the wrong way in a one-way street ("the e-bike rider was

Seems the complaint is not actually against e-bikes, but people breaking the law on e-bikes, like going the wrong way in a one-way street ("the e-bike rider was going the wrong way on a one-way street") or riders using sidewalks instead of the actual street ("The idea of normalizing any vehicle zipping along any and all sidewalks"), then goes on to claim "In the grander catalogue of neighborhood dangers, getting hit by an e-bike is far from the deadliest" which is outright ridiculous, do these neighborhoods not have cars, that are way more dangerous? Instead of putting the blame on e-bikes, blame your local city government for not providing the right infrastructure for bikers in general, because they should not travel on the same "road" as pedestrians.

Caligatio 4y ago
I honestly don't even know what subset of automotive rules apply to e-bikes. Do they have to follow signs for one way streets? Do they go on sidewalks and co-exist with walkers? Do they follow traffic lights? I just moved to Germany and electric scooters are seemingly in the same regulatory grey space. There was a scooter in the bike lane, blew through a red light, and then went up the wrong way on a divided street. Personally, I would like bikes/e-bikes/scooters to just be predictable and predictability means laws and regulations.
- capableweb 4y ago
  > I honestly don't even know what subset of automotive rules apply to e-bikes Same as any other bike. Go in the bike-lane and if there is none, go on the road meant for vehicles. Yes, bikes need to follow signs for one way streets. If you have to travel on sidewalks, jump of your bike and lead it until you get to a proper road. Yes, if you're on a bike, you need to follow traffic lights.
- bilegeek 4y ago
  At least in the US, they are to be treated as any other vehicle on the road, and are supposed to follow the same rules. Aside from restrictions on highways and freeways because of slowness, there is no "subset".
  - danhor 4y ago
    That's not accurate and depends on the state. For example the Idaho stop allows bikes to (mostly) ignore stop signs, and sometimes even treat red lights as stop signs.
    - bilegeek 4y ago
      Huh, TIL.
- solar-ice 4y ago
  In Germany, your e-scooter needs to be insured, and definitely have to follow traffic laws when on the road, can be ridden on bike paths and lanes, and cannot be ridden on pavements. It's pretty simple. The problem is e-scooter retailers have no interest in teaching people how to use the things they sell.
- danhor 4y ago
  At least in germany, E-Bikes are easy. They're the same as bikes. They can be used anywhere except for sidewalks/pedestrianized areas without explicit "Fahrrad Frei" signs, Autobahns and roads with bike ways adjacent to them with a bikeway sign. They follow normal (car) traffic lights, except for when there are traffic lights with bikes. One Way streets are only allowed if there is a "Fahrrad Frei" sign. E-Scooters are much more complicated. They have to use bikelanes (even if their usage is not required for bikes) and can't use "Fahrrad Frei" sidewalks, but can use "Fahrrad Frei" one-way streets. They're also not allowed to use ways blocked for motorized traffic, which is usually another way in germany to declare mixed use pedestrian/cycle streets. There are also a few other exceptions, which are even more complex. If you just pretend to be a bike, there are few to no issues with other people and even police [1]. [1]: Except for large, pedestrianized areas allowed for bikes, where police are sometimes on the lookout for E-Scooter users, due to the bad experiences with rentals.
- rob_c 4y ago
  The biggest problem is lack of policing. And then frankly that people know this so act like cowboys. The arguments against a bike lisence are the same as "big govt can't make me wear seatbelt for my safety" bad arguments shouted be people who know they're wrong and get backed into a corner. Unfortunately on this issue they shout so loud that people listen ...
  - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
    The arguments against bike licensing/registration/insurance etc. is that the cost to implement and run the scheme is orders of magnitude greater than the purported benefits. Here in the UK, some house/contents insurance includes cycle liability insurance as the number of claims is negligible and it costs the company very little (not so much cycle theft insurance). The other oft-forgotten aspect of cycling is that in places with social healthcare, the health benefits from cycling will save money, so it can actually save the state money to introduce free cycle liability insurance if it increases the numbers cycling.
    - rob_c 4y ago
      And another day where I nearly get hit buy 2 cyclists walking home choosing not to obey rules of the cycle lane or road. No sympathy for the bad ones who seem to be an increasing majority.
wcoenen 4y ago
> then goes on to claim "In the grander catalogue of neighborhood dangers, getting hit by an e-bike is far from the deadliest" which is outright ridiculous, do these neighborhoods not have cars, that are way more dangerous? "... e-bike is far from the deadliest" means that there are things that are much deadlier than e-bikes, like cars. So you seem to be in agreement with (this part of) the article.
- capableweb 4y ago
  Yeah, absolutely true, I misread that part. Thanks for clarifying to my tired brain :)
  - mrcartmeneses 4y ago
    Wholesome
bilegeek 4y ago
Bicycles really need dedicated infrastructure. Too fast for pedestrians on the sidewalk, too slow for most roads. (I know they are legally allowed on the road; in practice though, it doesn't work out very well.)
- capableweb 4y ago
  > (I know they are legally allowed on the road; in practice though, it doesn't work out very well.) Not just legally allowed, legally required to travel by road, just because it's not safe to travel with a vehicle together on the same place as pedestrians. Then that the US has a problem with focusing only on cars, is a separate issue.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    It's absolutely safe for bikes to ride on same place as pedestrians: collisions are rare, and when they do happen they're not deadly. Is it annoying? Yeah maybe, but that's not a good enough reason to make them ride on alongside cars, which is actually dangerous.
    - wolfram74 4y ago
      And obviously bikes can operate at a range of speeds, if I feel like I need to go on the sidewalk for safety reasons and there's any other people I stick to a pace comparable to someone jogging.
      - bryanlarsen 4y ago
        If you want to take your bicycle on the sidewalk, you're welcome to walk your bike.
        wolfram74 4y ago
        A mounted bicyclist at a walking pace has a lower cross section than a parent with a stroller or a person in a wheelchair. Sidewalks are multi-modal, until we can get rid of the scourge of cars, anybody opting not to use them should be encouraged as long they're being civil.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> do these neighborhoods not have cars, that are way more dangerous? only because there are more, but cars have to actually follow safety guidelines when they are designed to reduce risks for pedestrians being hit. that's why most of them looks the same. bikes don't and e-bikes in particular run much faster than regular bikes and are used much more by incompetent bikers, given they are basically a non-taxed non-regulated non-plated moped (mopeds are quite dangerous for pedestrians) > Instead of putting the blame on e-bikes, blame your local city government one way roads are a way the local government address the issue, sidewalks are another way to protect pedestrians, if people on e-bikes (see above why e-bikes more than regular bikes) don't follow rules (they usually don't, everybody knows that, unless we are playing the hypocrisy game) I'm all in for arresting them and destroying the vehicle to build anti bikes protection on sidewalks. Problem is local government would never do that. I can tell you all about the city where I live where they spent millions to build bike lanes all over the city, after people and local fad-of-the-moment political groups protested, rallied, involved - and probably paid - influencers to ask for them!, and bikes (e-bikes more than others, riders more than regular folks) ride on the sidewalk because "It's safer, the bike lane runs side by side with the car lane" Welcome to the realm of reality, where people are usually shit. I say don't give the the tools to be shittier: ban e-bikes and force owners to get a permit to ride them in a city. At least we know who they ate in case of accident (they usually run!)
- pharmakom 4y ago
  KE = 0.5 * m * v * v
  - Retric 4y ago
    Oddly bikes kill roughly as many people per mile as cars do, and injure significantly more. Drivers do kill approximately 40x as many people in NYC, but they also travel far more. The politics around this are tricky in part because of comments like yours. https://nypost.com/2019/08/31/nyc-bicyclists-are-killing-pedestrians-and-the-city-wont-stop-it/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/31/nyc-bicyclists-are-killing-ped...
bogomipz 4y ago
>"Instead of putting the blame on e-bikes, blame your local city government for not providing the right infrastructure for bikers in general, because they should not travel on the same "road" as pedestrians." I don't buy that at all. New York City has substantial bike infrastructure and all of that egregious and law-breaking behavior is still rampant. I would even say the level of disregard couldn't be more flagrant. You can see ebike riders riding on the sidewalk right next to the protected bike line or see them riding in the dedicated red bus lane when the protected green bike lane is clearly visible on the same street and has cyclists visibly using it. Despite having protected lanes that follow the direction of traffic, ebikes will go the wrong way down that bike lane. They regularly leave the protected bike lane to go ride out in the middle of traffic and almost never stop at traffic lights and weave through pedestrians using the cross walk.
- sleepybrett 4y ago
  I live in seattle, we have .. some bike infrastructure but much of it is less than ideal (unseperated bike lanes, 'greenways' normal roads that are promoted for bicycle use which can be ok, but i often get aggressive drivers pissed that i'm using the greenway), Every time there is a bike lane and a sidewalk and I choose the side walk it comes down to either: 1) the bike lane isn't actively safe at all, too narrow, un-protected from heavy car traffic or torn to shit or 2) there is some asshole or assholes parked/double-parked in it. I'd love not to be on the sidewalk, it tends to slow me way down (pedestrians that I don't want to hit).
- crote 4y ago
  From what I can tell, NYC bike infrastructure is still in its infancy. While it seems to be doing a decent-ish job adding bike lanes, building actual _bike infrastructure_ has yet to begin. Streets are designed car-first, with a bike lane added as afterthought. Good cycling infrastructure requires completely separate "cycling highways", a radical intersection redesign, and actually creating areas where cars are second-rate citizens - if at all present. I am simply not seeing that in NYC yet.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
rich_sasha 4y ago
I live in a city with truly great bike infrastructure. Separate bike lanes off main road, secure bike parking, separate traffic light phase for bikes... and e-bikers are just as bad. Having a bike lane on the opposite side of the road, they'd still rather ride up the wrong side for some reason. Cutting through red light and meandering through traffic is commonplace, as are speeding, riding on pavement, riding while talking on clicking on the phone... You're 100% right, it's not the bike's fault, but somehow they act as enablers for idiots. And having the infrastructure doesn't help.
- orwin 4y ago
  Its weird, because the city i live in as great bike infrastructure (except in the historical center, but paved roads are bad for bikes anyway). No issue at all with ebike, despite being like 5 ebike shop within 5 minutes of where i live (by bike obviously), and the city bikes are now ebikes too. It might be because the bikes are capped at 25 kmh? I mean, its already faster than my average speed when i take a car to move stuff within the city (there is no traffic jam, the streets are just very narrow, with a lot of turns and pedestrians)

Caligatio 4y ago

I honestly don't even know what subset of automotive rules apply to e-bikes. Do they have to follow signs for one way streets? Do they go on sidewalks and co-exist with walkers? Do they follow traffic lights? I just moved to Germany and electric scooters are seemingly in the same regulatory grey space. There was a scooter in the bike lane, blew through a red light, and then went up the wrong way on a divided street. Personally, I would like bikes/e-bikes/scooters to just be predictable and predictability means laws and regulations.

capableweb 4y ago
> I honestly don't even know what subset of automotive rules apply to e-bikes Same as any other bike. Go in the bike-lane and if there is none, go on the road meant for vehicles. Yes, bikes need to follow signs for one way streets. If you have to travel on sidewalks, jump of your bike and lead it until you get to a proper road. Yes, if you're on a bike, you need to follow traffic lights.
bilegeek 4y ago
At least in the US, they are to be treated as any other vehicle on the road, and are supposed to follow the same rules. Aside from restrictions on highways and freeways because of slowness, there is no "subset".
- danhor 4y ago
  That's not accurate and depends on the state. For example the Idaho stop allows bikes to (mostly) ignore stop signs, and sometimes even treat red lights as stop signs.
  - bilegeek 4y ago
    Huh, TIL.
solar-ice 4y ago
In Germany, your e-scooter needs to be insured, and definitely have to follow traffic laws when on the road, can be ridden on bike paths and lanes, and cannot be ridden on pavements. It's pretty simple. The problem is e-scooter retailers have no interest in teaching people how to use the things they sell.
danhor 4y ago
At least in germany, E-Bikes are easy. They're the same as bikes. They can be used anywhere except for sidewalks/pedestrianized areas without explicit "Fahrrad Frei" signs, Autobahns and roads with bike ways adjacent to them with a bikeway sign. They follow normal (car) traffic lights, except for when there are traffic lights with bikes. One Way streets are only allowed if there is a "Fahrrad Frei" sign. E-Scooters are much more complicated. They have to use bikelanes (even if their usage is not required for bikes) and can't use "Fahrrad Frei" sidewalks, but can use "Fahrrad Frei" one-way streets. They're also not allowed to use ways blocked for motorized traffic, which is usually another way in germany to declare mixed use pedestrian/cycle streets. There are also a few other exceptions, which are even more complex. If you just pretend to be a bike, there are few to no issues with other people and even police [1]. [1]: Except for large, pedestrianized areas allowed for bikes, where police are sometimes on the lookout for E-Scooter users, due to the bad experiences with rentals.
rob_c 4y ago
The biggest problem is lack of policing. And then frankly that people know this so act like cowboys. The arguments against a bike lisence are the same as "big govt can't make me wear seatbelt for my safety" bad arguments shouted be people who know they're wrong and get backed into a corner. Unfortunately on this issue they shout so loud that people listen ...
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  The arguments against bike licensing/registration/insurance etc. is that the cost to implement and run the scheme is orders of magnitude greater than the purported benefits. Here in the UK, some house/contents insurance includes cycle liability insurance as the number of claims is negligible and it costs the company very little (not so much cycle theft insurance). The other oft-forgotten aspect of cycling is that in places with social healthcare, the health benefits from cycling will save money, so it can actually save the state money to introduce free cycle liability insurance if it increases the numbers cycling.
  - rob_c 4y ago
    And another day where I nearly get hit buy 2 cyclists walking home choosing not to obey rules of the cycle lane or road. No sympathy for the bad ones who seem to be an increasing majority.

wcoenen 4y ago

> then goes on to claim "In the grander catalogue of neighborhood dangers, getting hit by an e-bike is far from the deadliest" which is outright ridiculous, do these neighborhoods not have cars, that are way more dangerous? "... e-bike is far from the deadliest" means that there are things that are much deadlier than e-bikes, like cars. So you seem to be in agreement with (this part of) the article.

capableweb 4y ago
Yeah, absolutely true, I misread that part. Thanks for clarifying to my tired brain :)
- mrcartmeneses 4y ago
  Wholesome

bilegeek 4y ago

Bicycles really need dedicated infrastructure. Too fast for pedestrians on the sidewalk, too slow for most roads. (I know they are legally allowed on the road; in practice though, it doesn't work out very well.)

capableweb 4y ago
> (I know they are legally allowed on the road; in practice though, it doesn't work out very well.) Not just legally allowed, legally required to travel by road, just because it's not safe to travel with a vehicle together on the same place as pedestrians. Then that the US has a problem with focusing only on cars, is a separate issue.
- amrocha 4y ago
  It's absolutely safe for bikes to ride on same place as pedestrians: collisions are rare, and when they do happen they're not deadly. Is it annoying? Yeah maybe, but that's not a good enough reason to make them ride on alongside cars, which is actually dangerous.
  - wolfram74 4y ago
    And obviously bikes can operate at a range of speeds, if I feel like I need to go on the sidewalk for safety reasons and there's any other people I stick to a pace comparable to someone jogging.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      If you want to take your bicycle on the sidewalk, you're welcome to walk your bike.
      - wolfram74 4y ago
        A mounted bicyclist at a walking pace has a lower cross section than a parent with a stroller or a person in a wheelchair. Sidewalks are multi-modal, until we can get rid of the scourge of cars, anybody opting not to use them should be encouraged as long they're being civil.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> do these neighborhoods not have cars, that are way more dangerous? only because there are more, but cars have to actually follow safety guidelines when they are designed to reduce risks for pedestrians being hit. that's why most of them looks the same. bikes don't and e-bikes in particular run much faster than regular bikes and are used much more by incompetent bikers, given they are basically a non-taxed non-regulated non-plated moped (mopeds are quite dangerous for pedestrians) > Instead of putting the blame on e-bikes, blame your local city government one way roads are a way the local government address the issue, sidewalks are another way to protect pedestrians, if people on e-bikes (see above why e-bikes more than regular bikes) don't follow rules (they usually don't, everybody knows that, unless we are playing the hypocrisy game) I'm all in for arresting them and destroying the vehicle to build anti bikes protection on sidewalks. Problem is local government would never do that. I can tell you all about the city where I live where they spent millions to build bike lanes all over the city, after people and local fad-of-the-moment political groups protested, rallied, involved - and probably paid - influencers to ask for them!, and bikes (e-bikes more than others, riders more than regular folks) ride on the sidewalk because "It's safer, the bike lane runs side by side with the car lane" Welcome to the realm of reality, where people are usually shit. I say don't give the the tools to be shittier: ban e-bikes and force owners to get a permit to ride them in a city. At least we know who they ate in case of accident (they usually run!)

pharmakom 4y ago
KE = 0.5 * m * v * v
- Retric 4y ago
  Oddly bikes kill roughly as many people per mile as cars do, and injure significantly more. Drivers do kill approximately 40x as many people in NYC, but they also travel far more. The politics around this are tricky in part because of comments like yours. https://nypost.com/2019/08/31/nyc-bicyclists-are-killing-pedestrians-and-the-city-wont-stop-it/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/31/nyc-bicyclists-are-killing-ped...

bogomipz 4y ago

>"Instead of putting the blame on e-bikes, blame your local city government for not providing the right infrastructure for bikers in general, because they should not travel on the same "road" as pedestrians." I don't buy that at all. New York City has substantial bike infrastructure and all of that egregious and law-breaking behavior is still rampant. I would even say the level of disregard couldn't be more flagrant. You can see ebike riders riding on the sidewalk right next to the protected bike line or see them riding in the dedicated red bus lane when the protected green bike lane is clearly visible on the same street and has cyclists visibly using it. Despite having protected lanes that follow the direction of traffic, ebikes will go the wrong way down that bike lane. They regularly leave the protected bike lane to go ride out in the middle of traffic and almost never stop at traffic lights and weave through pedestrians using the cross walk.

sleepybrett 4y ago
I live in seattle, we have .. some bike infrastructure but much of it is less than ideal (unseperated bike lanes, 'greenways' normal roads that are promoted for bicycle use which can be ok, but i often get aggressive drivers pissed that i'm using the greenway), Every time there is a bike lane and a sidewalk and I choose the side walk it comes down to either: 1) the bike lane isn't actively safe at all, too narrow, un-protected from heavy car traffic or torn to shit or 2) there is some asshole or assholes parked/double-parked in it. I'd love not to be on the sidewalk, it tends to slow me way down (pedestrians that I don't want to hit).
crote 4y ago
From what I can tell, NYC bike infrastructure is still in its infancy. While it seems to be doing a decent-ish job adding bike lanes, building actual _bike infrastructure_ has yet to begin. Streets are designed car-first, with a bike lane added as afterthought. Good cycling infrastructure requires completely separate "cycling highways", a radical intersection redesign, and actually creating areas where cars are second-rate citizens - if at all present. I am simply not seeing that in NYC yet.
- bogomipz 4y ago

rich_sasha 4y ago

I live in a city with truly great bike infrastructure. Separate bike lanes off main road, secure bike parking, separate traffic light phase for bikes... and e-bikers are just as bad. Having a bike lane on the opposite side of the road, they'd still rather ride up the wrong side for some reason. Cutting through red light and meandering through traffic is commonplace, as are speeding, riding on pavement, riding while talking on clicking on the phone... You're 100% right, it's not the bike's fault, but somehow they act as enablers for idiots. And having the infrastructure doesn't help.

orwin 4y ago
Its weird, because the city i live in as great bike infrastructure (except in the historical center, but paved roads are bad for bikes anyway). No issue at all with ebike, despite being like 5 ebike shop within 5 minutes of where i live (by bike obviously), and the city bikes are now ebikes too. It might be because the bikes are capped at 25 kmh? I mean, its already faster than my average speed when i take a car to move stuff within the city (there is no traffic jam, the streets are just very narrow, with a lot of turns and pedestrians)