32 ms·
Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan
- daniel-thompson 4y agohttps://archive.ph/DnP1T https://archive.ph/DnP1T
- troon-lover 4y ago
- yomkippur 4y ago
- collegeburner 4y agoimo his concerns about the japanese justice system arent all wrong. so not that simple. if i was in his position i'd probably do the same.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> his concerns about the japanese justice system arent all wrong. so not that simple Conveniently, he cannot stand trial in France, which has also called for his arrest based on their own investigations, because he chose to become an international fugitive in Lebanon [1]. That said, I believe there has been prosecutorial interest around Anthony Ghosn--Carlos's son living in, to my last recollection, California--due to payments he made to the Taylors [2]. (The daughter, Maya, who is profiled in the article helping him escape is also in California, though there is no interest in charging her to my knowledge.) [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-issues-international-arrest-warrant-for-carlos-ghosn-11650578738 https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-issues-international-arr... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nissan-ghosn-taylor-bail-idUSKCN24O2I6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nissan-ghosn-taylor-bail-...
- yehShapey 4y agoNation states would never put out empty statements they know they legally cannot act on to soothe other nation states, or, less charitable to the French government, collude with other nation states to imprison inconvenient actors. I know the tech scene tends to fawn over Japanese culture, but business and government there lean conservative like every other nation state right now. My experience is that it’s 100% possible some xenophobes within industry have a very “Brexit-like” mentality about their nation and the fear of Renault-Nissan culture clash was leveraged to trump up charges. Note I said it’s possible. Ultimately none of us really know, but the Japanese are “just people” too. No reason to believe they’re aren’t pulling an “Assange” like the west.
- daniel-thompson 4y ago> Conveniently, he cannot stand trial in France, which has also called for his arrest based on their own investigations, because he chose to become an international fugitive in Lebanon. (Without getting into value judgments about the merits of the case,) this quote from Leo McGarry comes to mind: > Well, that's why he did it. You can't fault him for having a winning strategy. http://www.westwingtranscripts.com/search.php?flag=getTranscript&id=71 http://www.westwingtranscripts.com/search.php?flag=getTransc...
- collegeburner 4y agoofc he can't stand trial in france bc they will extradite him to japan instead. he got the assange problem.
- Scoundreller 4y agoMore likely they would hand him to France. Lebanon gets a lot more out of France than Japan.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- KerrAvon 4y agoit’s really not that clear cut, though
- yomkippur 4y agohe is also wanted in France for similar embezzlement, I don't understand why so many expats and people who never been in Japan are suddenly defending a grifter.
- chrischen 4y agoNot convicted yet, and apparently he does want to be tried just in France and not in Japan. A lot of the accusations are for standard rich people crimes which is some amount of tax avoidance. You can basically pick and choose who you want to target because as panama papers shows pretty much all rich people are dodging taxes to some degree.
- yomkippur 4y agoExcept he wasn't evading taxes, he was paying himself extra money that he deemed was justified but was not approved or made aware to the company. I don't know why people are defending Ghosn, I suspect with all that money, he was able to hire an internet marketing company to flood the comment section like they did on Reddit. Still doesn't change the fact that Interpol has a red notice for Ghosn.
- chrischen 4y agoSeems more like a civil thing. He was the CEO. Seemed like they used all these things as reasons to oust him. Doesn’t change the fact that trial hasn’t happened yet.
- kergonath 4y agoCome on! The guy is wanted in 13 countries for (amongst others) tax evasion, corruption, embezzlement, fraud, and forgery.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mrtksn 4y agoHe is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "Japanese prisons and legal system are not good" editorials were coordinated. IMHO, if Japanese system is that bad, People should stop going to Japan or take action to fix it for everyone instead of normalising the getting of scott-free for the elite.
- throwoutway 4y ago> it's not wrong to escape from prison. Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong. You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unreasonable
- collegeburner 4y agomeh it's the shit that got them in there that was wrong. it may give us the justification to hold them prisoner but they still aren't morally required to not escape. like it's up to the judge what sentence they get so how could that even be a moral obligation?
- mrtksn 4y agoI think the burden for imprisonment and compelling people to stay in prison is on the punishers. That should not be confused with the crimes being wrong, I'm talking about ones desire not to be imprisoned being a natural desire and acting on it not being wrong by itself.
- jokowueu 4y agoThere are major issues with Japan's justice system though . I mean just reading the link on this thread made me sad Michael Taylor. Mr. Taylor pleaded guilty to aiding Mr. Ghosn’s escape and started a two-year sentence at Tokyo’s Fuchu Prison in the summer of 2021; he spends much of his day in solitary confinement.
- nxm 4y agoHas he been proven guilty? I like to believe innocent until proven guilty
- blackguardx 4y agoThere likely won’t be a trial. He fled justice. It is hard to try people in absentia.
- nashashmi 4y agoRemember when a person gets accused of financial impropriety after years of abuse, it usually is a cartel based takedown.
- zen_1 4y agoI hope he'll be thrown in prison (after a fair trial ofc) along with Do Kwon, Alex Mashinsky and all the other financial criminals we've seen pop up recently.
- someperson 4y agoThe article ends with Ghosn entering the box. > This article is adapted from “Boundless: The Rise, Fall, and Escape of Carlos Ghosn” by Wall Street Journal reporters Nick Kostov and Sean McLain, to be published on Aug. 9, 2022
- TedShiller 4y agoThey left out the interesting part
- wpietri 4y agoNot a coincidence! The marketing purpose of publishing a book excerpt is so the book's audience can better see why it's worth buying the book.
- theflyingelvis 4y agoProps to Ghosn. Stuck it to the man.
- maybelsyrup 4y agoGhosn IS "the man". People who stick it to the man don't have access to Green Berets and private jets and multiple citizenships. This story can be understood as bickering between two factions or groups of "the man": on the one side the Japanese legal system, hardly a champion of the underdog; and on the other, one of the world's richest and most powerful people, the sort of person who does not (cannot) arrive at his station in life without being a special type of ruthless sociopath, whether they're guilty of literal crimes or not along the way. So like it's a highly entertaining cage match, but rooting for one or the other if you're not also part of the ownership class is kinda a coin toss.
- exhilaration 4y agoThe other side, according to Ghosn, wasn't the Japanese legal system -- it was other Nissan executives that weaponized the Japanese legal system against a foreigner. Still, I agree it's very much a case of infighting among the privileged.
- mrandish 4y agoI'd add that the Japanese political system was involved as well. It wasn't hard for the Nissan power players to align political support since there was already national pride and home-team loyalty at stake. The deck was definitely heavily stacked against Ghosn.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ETH_start 4y ago
- nashashmi 4y agoWatch Carlos Ghosn: Last flight. I watched it on emirates airlines. And it was good.
- CamperBob2 4y agoWow, not hard to see how the next 9/11 will happen. The staff at the charter jet terminal were almost criminally clueless. "So, how exactly does the security work around here, anyway? Is this huge crate going to be X-rayed? Because it needs to not be X-rayed. Also, here's a $10,000 tip, just to make sure you, um, don't remember us."
- Nextgrid 4y agoI'm not sure how much this is a 9/11 risk? As far as I know the protection against "taking a jet and crashing it into a building" is a squadron of fighter jets that are quickly dispatched to (if necessary) shoot down any plane on a risky path. That's exactly what happened when some mentally unstable airport employee "stole" a plane and committed suicide by crashing it into the water after a few stunts. The other risk would be to take passengers hostage, but in case of a chartered plane I think it's fair game to let the customer themselves decide on the level of security they need - presumably they aren't harboring any terrorists/hijackers, and I would think hijacking a private corporate flight is really low on terrorist groups' bucket lists in terms of the expected "payoff".
- CamperBob2 4y agoYou're not wrong, but still, the events recounted in this article provide a near-perfect template for some really horrific shenanigans.
- protastus 4y ago> As far as I know the protection against "taking a jet and crashing it into a building" is a squadron of fighter jets that are quickly dispatched to (if necessary) shoot down any plane on a risky path. It's 16 miles from JFK airport to Manhattan. A jet plane can fly this distance in less than 5 minutes at sea level, within a normal flight envelope. There's latency recognizing from the ground that an airliner needs to be intercepted, launching alert fighters, and getting authorization to shoot down. Trust is involved in allowing a big container to be loaded on a plane.
- deleted 4y ago
- Cupertino95014 4y agoSince: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burglaries and $10 thefts from poor people: please explain what, exactly, Ghosn was accused of stealing, and from whom?
- Teever 4y ago> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Can you explain this one? Do you believe violent crimes require a violent penalty?
- colechristensen 4y ago>Do you believe violent crimes require a violent penalty? In many cases, yes.
- prvit 4y ago> Do you believe violent crimes require a violent penalty? It’s certainly a common belief, imprisoning someone is inherently a violent penalty.
- russellbeattie 4y agoIt makes you wonder how hard it would be for someone in the US to do the same... Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where a prominent wealthy person was indicted for some random federal crime, say 18 U.S.C. § 372 or 2384, etc. I'd bet they wouldn't need to hide in a box to flee to a country without an extradition agreement, like Russia for example. One would hope we'd be able to prevent something like that, but it's a big country.
- rado 4y agoIt's good that this case pulled the lid off (sorry) Japan's questionable justice system. See also: child abduction in mixed marriages https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/their-children-were-taken-now-they-fight-japanese-laws-to-get-them-back-20210727-p58dbk.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/their-children-were-taken-...
- iforgotpassword 4y agoDoesn't the lid get pulled off every couple years and then nothing? I feel I read about a few cases over the decades. Somehow Nintendo and Anime seem to overpower that quite well. ;-)
- EdwardDiego 4y agoYeah my brother had a child with his Japanese wife last year, and she became very unwell mentally post-partum, but won't seek treatment. He's desperately unhappy, but he has to stay in the marriage, as he has no chance in hell of seeing his son if he leaves, foreign spouses never win a custody dispute in Japanese courts, and Japan does not do shared custody.
- chrischen 4y agoI think something similar happened go some youtuber (google Tech lead guy on youtube) where his wife who is Japanese took their (I think American) child to Japan and now he cannot even see his child.
- sadhorse 4y agoOne can only wonder what led her to do this to him (as a millionaire).
- Grazester 4y agoI remember the dude and remembered him mentioning trouble with his wife and kid. How can a parent take a kid out of the country without the consent of the other parent without it being categorized as kidnapping. Being that the kid is an American citizen can't the U.S. system get Japan to send this kid back(if the mother is only Japanese and not the kid). Didn't America extradite the Americans involved in Ghosen's escape? So they should have agreements this such legal matters to no? P.s. I really didn't agree with American extraditing it's citizen in Goshen's case.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- closedloop129 4y agoHow good is he as a manager? Would Nissan be a better company if they had kept him at the top?
- chrischen 4y agoHe worked his way from the bottom and climbed up as an immigrant. As a company man he seems legitimate.
- kwere 4y agohe was a genius in automotive management, turned around south american division of michelin in less than 2 years. saved Nissan from bankrupcy in few years by cost cutting everything that wasnt extremely necessary, throwed away alls "zaibatsu culture things" and promoted by skill not "age". he really went against japanese corporate norms.[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Career
- bamboozled 4y agoCan someone ELI5 what exactly he apparently did wrong? It's confusing, I hear people say he "escaped" and I hear people say he should be prosecuted for escaping. Weird.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> Can someone ELI5 what exactly he apparently did wrong? Basically Enron except he stole the money [1]. (Also, less of it.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Initial_arrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Initial_arrest
- bamboozled 4y agoI'm not familiar with Enron, but he just simply stole money into his personal accounts?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> he just simply stole money into his personal accounts? Yup! (I mean, it went to subsidiaries for pay his family and his own entities. Or was laundered to pay for a party at Versailles. Fairly standard stuff.)
- hannyaharamita 4y agoA popular narrative is that the choice is between Ghosn being guilty or a victim of a Nissan management coup d'etat. This is a false dichotomy, it is also quite possible that illicit activity by Ghosn provided convenient ammunition to people with incentive to have him removed. People pushing the binary narrative focus on how the Japanese prosecution seems over the top for what is essentially a financial reporting law violation. However, the reporting issues are only two of the allegations. The other two seem more serious, breach of trust in getting Nissan to cover collateral for FX losses, and misappropriation of funds in which $15 million was sent to a Nissan dealership, a portion of which was then transferred to a company controlled by Ghosn. Adding to these the French arrest warrant on charges of money laundering and abuse of company assets, which seem to include misuse of company funds to allegedly pay for a lavish personal party at Versailles, one must wonder if online Ghosn supporters are organic or reputation management staff.
- SenHeng 4y agoIt’s also largely fuelled by the negative experiences many foreigners, resident or tourist, have had with the Japanese police. O: https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/j4ccy4/how_being_arrested_in_japan_works_out/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/j4ccy4/how_being... 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/tcxseo/arrested_on_fake_accusation_absolute_nightmare/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/tcxseo/arrested_...
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
- BonoboIO 4y agoI tend to believe Ghosn here. He is definitely not a saint, but I don’t think he would have gotten a fair trial.
- kazinator 4y agoI was in Japan in early 2019, just around the time he released a statement that was aired on TV. I have to say, Ghosn is very charming; he makes you want to believe every word he says.