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I have often wondered: A - Are meats unhealthy, or, is it the food fed (grains on a foodlot) to the animal that negatively influences the health profile? [1]

I have often wondered: A - Are meats unhealthy, or, is it the food fed (grains on a foodlot) to the animal that negatively influences the health profile? [1] B - If meats are so unhealthy, why are the bushmen superfit and incredibly healthy into old age despite having a significant amount of meat ~25% in their diet? [2] & [3] I recognize that some animals raised on healthy grass-fed diets may have health profiles more similar to healthy fish than conventional grain fed red meat [4] & [5] [1] https://chriskresser.com/why-grass-fed-trumps-grain-fed-and-why-you-should-try-it/ https://chriskresser.com/why-grass-fed-trumps-grain-fed-and-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWUlrTJoE70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWUlrTJoE70 [3] https://www.exploring-africa.com/en/botswana/san-or-bushmen/san-people https://www.exploring-africa.com/en/botswana/san-or-bushmen/... [4] https://www.fda.gov/food/metals-and-your-food/mercury-levels-commercial-fish-and-shellfish-1990-2012 https://www.fda.gov/food/metals-and-your-food/mercury-levels... [5] https://blog.dana-farber.org/insight/2016/02/are-grass-fed-beef-and-wild-fish-healthier/ https://blog.dana-farber.org/insight/2016/02/are-grass-fed-b...

WA 4y ago
10% reach 60. No numbers above that. They are healthy while alive, but don’t live longer than people from developed nations. Look, the discussions around bad health effects of meat consumption all resolve around heart disease and cancer. The numbers are pretty irrelevant for people below 60 or so. We are essentially optimizing lifespan and are wondering what causes diseases in old age, like 70+. It makes zero sense to look at bushmen or ask the paleo fairy, because most of them die earlier than most people in developed nations. If we talk about health and well-being, yes, the average bushman alive is probably healthier than the average 60 year old westerner, because the sick people died in the bush but not here and because they move around a lot more. It is literally comparing the fittest 10% against a society that includes also the sick-but-still-alive.
- tomp 4y ago
  > They are healthy while alive If that's true, it would imply that they don't die of ill health (disease) but of accidents (eaten by lion) or incredibly curable stuff (e.g. bacterial infection). So their lifestyle is definitely something to mimick / learn from, as we can easily prevent the healthy person dying causes of death in the first world.
  - oarabbus_ 4y ago
    > as we can easily prevent the healthy person dying causes of death in the first world. Citation needed. Accidental deaths from motor vehicle injuries plus other factors are disturbingly common in the first world.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      Doesn't need a citation since other populations do similarly. Unless you insist barbecues are causing mass extinction.
      - oarabbus_ 4y ago
        Barbecues causing mass extinction? Now that's one hell of a strawman. Citation still needed that modern society can "easily prevent" fatalities amongst healthy people, because it happens in all developed societies.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    Or it implies that people with debilitating conditions don't survive for very long because the Bushman lifestyle is much worse for them in a wide variety of ways, so don't get factored into assessments of the surviving population's general health. More generally, the fact that a specific group of people who live outdoors and forage and hunt for food are generally in quite good physical shape is probably a better indicator that exercise is good for the physique (and lots of food and a sedentary lifestyle bad for it), than an indication we should go to the supermarket and buy more red meat in proportion to the amount they consume it. Older people can be wiry and surprisingly agile in vegetarian communities where there's [just] enough food and their traditional lifestyle entails walking around everywhere too, but that doesn't mean vegetarianism is a solution to first world dietary problems either. I'd be cautious about conflating agile with free from discomforting ailments too.
  - watwut 4y ago
    No, that would imply they die of illness more quickly and sooner as well as of accidents. It does not have to be incredibly curable, all it needs if for better Healthcare making some difference.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  > the paleo fairy, because most of them die earlier than most people in developed nations I require a source on the average timespan of paleo fairies.
  - copperx 4y ago
    By timespan do you mean the time that they remain in a Paleo diet? Or did you mean lifespan?
    - moffkalast 4y ago
      ...either would be good.
martingoodson 4y ago
What evidence is there that bushmen have a long healthy life? Please don’t cite a YouTube video or blog as a reference.
- sph 4y ago
  Find a bushman that lives a bushman life but has access to modern medicine facilities first, then we can ask that question. Because this is exactly how bad dietary research is done. Comparing a bushman with a westerner and drawing conclusions that one diet is healthier than another.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
> conventional grain fed red meat "Grain fed" is not conventional.
- Ensorceled 4y ago
  "grain fed" IS conventional as in "in accordance with general practice; customary", it isn't conventional as in "traditional". Conventional is a poor word choice for this usage. Buying grass raised beef is difficult or expensive in most of North America.
  - BirAdam 4y ago
    Expensive perhaps, but not that expensive. Difficult? It’s in every Kroger which is the largest grocer in the USA (afaicr), and it’s also in every Walmart. There’s a lot of beef and a lot of grass fed beef in the USA. If America simply stopped wasting so much food it would likely lower prices enough to make higher quality foods more affordable.
    - galangalalgol 4y ago
      100% grass fed or "grass fed and grass finished" is a bit harder to find I think?
      - BirAdam 4y ago
        What is grass finished?
        galangalalgol 4y ago
        Finishing beef is what happens in the feedlot at the end to fatten them up. "grass fed" beef has in the past occasionally meant beef that fed on pasture all its life until it got to the feedlot where they stuffed it full of grain until it was well marbled. Grass finished means they only ate grass in the feedlot too. 100% grass fed has similar implications. You can pretty much tell. If the fat from the meat has a chartreuse tinge instead of off white, if after rendering it has a lower melting point, and if it tastes more like a neutral vegetable oil than a rich and creamy bacon grease, then its probably all grass. Edit: neutral is perhaps a bit harsh, its subtle and pleasant, it only compliments the meat's flavor, not drives it. Grain fed fat is like an ice cream sunday in comparison. Lots of flavor and so rich. Its like something that has so much sugar in it, it almost makes your mouth burn.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Regarding your point B, the current US government guidelines that the current article rails against as not being scientific enough actually say: > The core recommendations of the Guidelines state that a healthy diet for all Americans should include vegetables, fruits, grains (half of which should be whole grains), low or non-fat dairy, and a variety of protein foods, including seafood, lean meats and poultry, eggs, legumes (beans and peas), and nuts, seeds, and soy products. Further, Americans are told to keep saturated fat content below 10% of calories (why the DGA recommends lean meat and low or non-fat dairy), added sugars below 10% of calories, and salt below 2300mg per day. So they don't seem particularly out of line with the diet of your bushmen: > The Bushmen are hunter-gatherers, 75% of their diet consists of vegetable, including berries, walnuts, roots and melons, that are mainly harvested by women; while the remaining 25% is made up of meat that is hunted by men who hunt, using poisoned arrows and spears. (It's not clear how those percentages are measured, volume, weight, calories?) And the general advice around the world is "eat less red meat, especially processed meat" which seems remarkably tame compared with the anti-meat jihad that some people seem to think is occuring. e.g. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/food-types/meat-nutrition/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/food-types/meat-nutrit... > Meat is a good source of protein, vitamins and minerals in your diet. However, if you currently eat more than 90g (cooked weight) of red or processed meat a day, the Department of Health and Social Care advises that you cut down to 70g.
- flenserboy 4y ago
  70g is almost no meat. And not nearly enough.
- faddypaddy34 4y ago
  Low fat/non fat dairy is not healthy, nor is most low fat/non fat replacements because sugar is added to increase flavor.
  - wdkrnls 4y ago
    Sometimes that is true, sometimes not. However, I will say my recent experience has been that I have craved a lot more sugar from external sources (e.g. honey) when cutting out full fat yogurt from my diet even though I tried to supplement my diet with a lot more unsaturated fats to try and avoid this.
BirAdam 4y ago
Comparing one small homogenous group of people to a very large heterogeneous group of people would require controlling for a rather large set of variables. I don’t see that working well. Additionally, when looking at individuals within a single family we find variances where a diet will work for one and not for another, this applies to workout regimens and the like as well. I would say more study is needed across the board.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
> Are meats unhealthy, or, is it the food fed (grains on a foodlot) to the animal that negatively influences the health profile? I think there's a difference between healthy food, okay food, and unhealthy food. Something ultra processed, high in sugar, and low in other macro and micro nutrients is probably unhealthy. I think "red meat" is unlikely to be very unhealthy - in the same way a Twinky is. But maybe pepperoni sticks aren't too far behind... I'm not sure why so many people are convinced that red meat - in most of its forms - is one of the best foods you can possibly eat. There's a mountain of evidence that a lot of vegetables are really good for you. There's not much counter evidence that they're really bad for you. On the flip side, there's not a lot of evidence that red meat is super healthy. And there is a decent amount of evidence that it isn't.
- seibelj 4y ago
  The human body is poor at processing cellulose. You need a lot of plants to equal the nutrients from meat. You can do it, but a cheeseburger, a multivitamin, adequate sun, and good exercise is also a healthy lifestyle.
  - shlant 4y ago
    it seems weird that you would talk about supposed shortfalls of plant nutrition and then in the next sentence talk about cheeseburgers (who considers these healthy?) and multivitamins (which are not considered a substitute for proper nutrition[1][2]) 1. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/is-there-really-any-benefit-to-multivitamins https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi... 2. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/do-multivitamins-work https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/do-multivitamins-work
    - samatman 4y ago
      I consider a cheeseburger healthy. The custom of serving them with french fried potatoes and a milkshake or cola gives them a bit of guilt by association, but meat, some cheese, some vegetables, and a serving of bread? Don't see an issue at all.
vnorilo 4y ago
Regarding B, I had the pleasure of meeting a handful of San [1] elders to record some of their songs. I learned that some of them walked ~10km to meet with the rest of us and did not think much of it. In general their lifestyle is probably a lot less sedentary than mine. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people

WA 4y ago

10% reach 60. No numbers above that. They are healthy while alive, but don’t live longer than people from developed nations. Look, the discussions around bad health effects of meat consumption all resolve around heart disease and cancer. The numbers are pretty irrelevant for people below 60 or so. We are essentially optimizing lifespan and are wondering what causes diseases in old age, like 70+. It makes zero sense to look at bushmen or ask the paleo fairy, because most of them die earlier than most people in developed nations. If we talk about health and well-being, yes, the average bushman alive is probably healthier than the average 60 year old westerner, because the sick people died in the bush but not here and because they move around a lot more. It is literally comparing the fittest 10% against a society that includes also the sick-but-still-alive.

tomp 4y ago
> They are healthy while alive If that's true, it would imply that they don't die of ill health (disease) but of accidents (eaten by lion) or incredibly curable stuff (e.g. bacterial infection). So their lifestyle is definitely something to mimick / learn from, as we can easily prevent the healthy person dying causes of death in the first world.
- oarabbus_ 4y ago
  > as we can easily prevent the healthy person dying causes of death in the first world. Citation needed. Accidental deaths from motor vehicle injuries plus other factors are disturbingly common in the first world.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    Doesn't need a citation since other populations do similarly. Unless you insist barbecues are causing mass extinction.
    - oarabbus_ 4y ago
      Barbecues causing mass extinction? Now that's one hell of a strawman. Citation still needed that modern society can "easily prevent" fatalities amongst healthy people, because it happens in all developed societies.
- notahacker 4y ago
  Or it implies that people with debilitating conditions don't survive for very long because the Bushman lifestyle is much worse for them in a wide variety of ways, so don't get factored into assessments of the surviving population's general health. More generally, the fact that a specific group of people who live outdoors and forage and hunt for food are generally in quite good physical shape is probably a better indicator that exercise is good for the physique (and lots of food and a sedentary lifestyle bad for it), than an indication we should go to the supermarket and buy more red meat in proportion to the amount they consume it. Older people can be wiry and surprisingly agile in vegetarian communities where there's [just] enough food and their traditional lifestyle entails walking around everywhere too, but that doesn't mean vegetarianism is a solution to first world dietary problems either. I'd be cautious about conflating agile with free from discomforting ailments too.
- watwut 4y ago
  No, that would imply they die of illness more quickly and sooner as well as of accidents. It does not have to be incredibly curable, all it needs if for better Healthcare making some difference.
moffkalast 4y ago
> the paleo fairy, because most of them die earlier than most people in developed nations I require a source on the average timespan of paleo fairies.
- copperx 4y ago
  By timespan do you mean the time that they remain in a Paleo diet? Or did you mean lifespan?
  - moffkalast 4y ago
    ...either would be good.

martingoodson 4y ago

What evidence is there that bushmen have a long healthy life? Please don’t cite a YouTube video or blog as a reference.

sph 4y ago
Find a bushman that lives a bushman life but has access to modern medicine facilities first, then we can ask that question. Because this is exactly how bad dietary research is done. Comparing a bushman with a westerner and drawing conclusions that one diet is healthier than another.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

> conventional grain fed red meat "Grain fed" is not conventional.

Ensorceled 4y ago
"grain fed" IS conventional as in "in accordance with general practice; customary", it isn't conventional as in "traditional". Conventional is a poor word choice for this usage. Buying grass raised beef is difficult or expensive in most of North America.
- BirAdam 4y ago
  Expensive perhaps, but not that expensive. Difficult? It’s in every Kroger which is the largest grocer in the USA (afaicr), and it’s also in every Walmart. There’s a lot of beef and a lot of grass fed beef in the USA. If America simply stopped wasting so much food it would likely lower prices enough to make higher quality foods more affordable.
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    100% grass fed or "grass fed and grass finished" is a bit harder to find I think?
    - BirAdam 4y ago
      What is grass finished?
      - galangalalgol 4y ago
        Finishing beef is what happens in the feedlot at the end to fatten them up. "grass fed" beef has in the past occasionally meant beef that fed on pasture all its life until it got to the feedlot where they stuffed it full of grain until it was well marbled. Grass finished means they only ate grass in the feedlot too. 100% grass fed has similar implications. You can pretty much tell. If the fat from the meat has a chartreuse tinge instead of off white, if after rendering it has a lower melting point, and if it tastes more like a neutral vegetable oil than a rich and creamy bacon grease, then its probably all grass. Edit: neutral is perhaps a bit harsh, its subtle and pleasant, it only compliments the meat's flavor, not drives it. Grain fed fat is like an ice cream sunday in comparison. Lots of flavor and so rich. Its like something that has so much sugar in it, it almost makes your mouth burn.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Regarding your point B, the current US government guidelines that the current article rails against as not being scientific enough actually say: > The core recommendations of the Guidelines state that a healthy diet for all Americans should include vegetables, fruits, grains (half of which should be whole grains), low or non-fat dairy, and a variety of protein foods, including seafood, lean meats and poultry, eggs, legumes (beans and peas), and nuts, seeds, and soy products. Further, Americans are told to keep saturated fat content below 10% of calories (why the DGA recommends lean meat and low or non-fat dairy), added sugars below 10% of calories, and salt below 2300mg per day. So they don't seem particularly out of line with the diet of your bushmen: > The Bushmen are hunter-gatherers, 75% of their diet consists of vegetable, including berries, walnuts, roots and melons, that are mainly harvested by women; while the remaining 25% is made up of meat that is hunted by men who hunt, using poisoned arrows and spears. (It's not clear how those percentages are measured, volume, weight, calories?) And the general advice around the world is "eat less red meat, especially processed meat" which seems remarkably tame compared with the anti-meat jihad that some people seem to think is occuring. e.g. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/food-types/meat-nutrition/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/food-types/meat-nutrit... > Meat is a good source of protein, vitamins and minerals in your diet. However, if you currently eat more than 90g (cooked weight) of red or processed meat a day, the Department of Health and Social Care advises that you cut down to 70g.

flenserboy 4y ago
70g is almost no meat. And not nearly enough.
faddypaddy34 4y ago
Low fat/non fat dairy is not healthy, nor is most low fat/non fat replacements because sugar is added to increase flavor.
- wdkrnls 4y ago
  Sometimes that is true, sometimes not. However, I will say my recent experience has been that I have craved a lot more sugar from external sources (e.g. honey) when cutting out full fat yogurt from my diet even though I tried to supplement my diet with a lot more unsaturated fats to try and avoid this.

BirAdam 4y ago

Comparing one small homogenous group of people to a very large heterogeneous group of people would require controlling for a rather large set of variables. I don’t see that working well. Additionally, when looking at individuals within a single family we find variances where a diet will work for one and not for another, this applies to workout regimens and the like as well. I would say more study is needed across the board.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

> Are meats unhealthy, or, is it the food fed (grains on a foodlot) to the animal that negatively influences the health profile? I think there's a difference between healthy food, okay food, and unhealthy food. Something ultra processed, high in sugar, and low in other macro and micro nutrients is probably unhealthy. I think "red meat" is unlikely to be very unhealthy - in the same way a Twinky is. But maybe pepperoni sticks aren't too far behind... I'm not sure why so many people are convinced that red meat - in most of its forms - is one of the best foods you can possibly eat. There's a mountain of evidence that a lot of vegetables are really good for you. There's not much counter evidence that they're really bad for you. On the flip side, there's not a lot of evidence that red meat is super healthy. And there is a decent amount of evidence that it isn't.

seibelj 4y ago
The human body is poor at processing cellulose. You need a lot of plants to equal the nutrients from meat. You can do it, but a cheeseburger, a multivitamin, adequate sun, and good exercise is also a healthy lifestyle.
- shlant 4y ago
  it seems weird that you would talk about supposed shortfalls of plant nutrition and then in the next sentence talk about cheeseburgers (who considers these healthy?) and multivitamins (which are not considered a substitute for proper nutrition[1][2]) 1. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/is-there-really-any-benefit-to-multivitamins https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi... 2. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/do-multivitamins-work https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/do-multivitamins-work
  - samatman 4y ago
    I consider a cheeseburger healthy. The custom of serving them with french fried potatoes and a milkshake or cola gives them a bit of guilt by association, but meat, some cheese, some vegetables, and a serving of bread? Don't see an issue at all.

vnorilo 4y ago

Regarding B, I had the pleasure of meeting a handful of San [1] elders to record some of their songs. I learned that some of them walked ~10km to meet with the rest of us and did not think much of it. In general their lifestyle is probably a lot less sedentary than mine. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people