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US library defunded after refusing to censor authors
- skyzyx 4y agoRepublicans, for all of their bravado, don’t understand the first fucking thing about Constitution. You can’t have liberty for some without liberty for all. Either you believe in liberty and free speech, or you don’t.
- slater 4y agoAbsolutely horrific :(
- yieldcrv 4y ago> Beyond books, residents visit the library for its wifi, he said, and it houses the very room where the vote took place. lol this vendetta and ire went deep
- fuckcensorship 4y ago> The vote leaves the library with funds through the first quarter of next year. Once a reserve fund is used up, it would be forced to close, Larry Walton, the library board’s president, told Bridge Michigan – harming not just readers but the community at large. Can anyone knowledgeably comment on the accuracy of this statement?
- aardvarkr 4y agoThat’s typically what happens when something gets defunded…do you doubt the veracity in any way?
- kmonsen 4y agoThat doesn't seem like the only option here, if I understand correctly they only declined a tax increase so the library could perhaps live on with reduced services.
- pseudalopex 4y agoThe old tax expired. Or will expire. The new proposal increased the rate apparently. I don't know how much or why.
- yieldcrv 4y agoone way to fight back is to make requests to remove the Bible and other Holy Books, since they contain the same themes from other works of fiction that are requested to be banned all paths probably result in simply defunding though, but there is more introspective potential from pointing out the holes in the arguments for banning books with "confusing" themes
- axblount 4y agoI appreciate the thought, but there's no way a request to remove the Bible would have any impact. The request would be discarded immediately.
- yieldcrv 4y agoand then you challenge the discarding and other bans on equal protection grounds (14th amendment)
- phailhaus 4y agoThat doesn't help, it just antagonizes the people you need to be on your side.
- plantwallshoe 4y agoYou only need these people on your side if their opinion is actually the majority opinion. Often minority opinion groups get their way because they turn out and vote in outsized numbers.
- armchairhacker 4y agoIt’s also morally wrong, like why should i care if someone has access to the Bible? And even if you don’t care about morality, but just being the majority opinion - the majority tends to swing back and forth and there are a lot of people who constantly switch sides. When you make inflammatory actions like banning the bible, or proposing to ban viagra (as some democrat did more as a symbolic gesture for banning abortion), you’re actually pushing away undecided voters and giving fuel to the “radical leftists” theory a lot of right-wingers seem to think is the entire left.
- rootusrootus 4y agoTiny rural town giving a real world demonstration of why there continues to be a brain drain towards urban centers. This is the world they want to live in.
- devwastaken 4y agoOne would argue libraries are the drain given every piece of literature there is accessible everywhere else. Books are simply no longer the source of information and "brain". And unless Twitter is academic now, urban folk aren't reading much either.
- Defletter 4y agoDo you honestly believe that "urban folk" are Twitter addicts?
- orwin 4y agoI do think urbanites read more, go more to the theater, spend less time on the internet, and participate in more social activities that lead them to meet more strangers. Maybe only in my area, or in my country, but it is pretty clear cut ATM.
- carrotcarrot 4y agoUrban centers arent any better. Both sides have become more and more radicalized. As a gay guy who loves urban life and has a lot of conservative views, this world is very frustrating.
- sofixa 4y agoIt's a bit like the Cuban émigrés in Florida who fear anything left of Pinochet, and thus vote for the party blaming people like themselves (from "mexican countries" if i can quote a very knowledgeable news anchor on Fox news or some other trash TV network) for all ills. So in your case, you can vote for the party that's, in general, against what you are, or for the policies that you want (probably on the economic more than social side of conservatism, it'd be interesting for a gay person to be socially conservative). That's why a two party system is extremely stupid.
- comrh 4y agoIn a township of 3,000 - 62% voted against funding the library the vote was held in. I think there was no Democrat running in the entire county (https://www.hollandsentinel.com/elections/results/local/2022-08-02/26139/ https://www.hollandsentinel.com/elections/results/local/2022...).
- canjobear 4y agoIf a public library is acting contrary to the interests of the voters that support it, then it should be defunded.
- WarChortle18 4y agoOh please, no one is forcing them to read the books they don't like. If 51% of the voting population of a town doesn't like something, everyone else has to deal with it? Kids are the worst affected by this and can't vote.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- adrianN 4y agoIf only voters always knew what is in their best interest...
- userbinator 4y agoResidents ultimately voted 62% to 37% against a measure that would have raised property taxes by roughly $24 in order to fund the library, even as they approved similar measures to fund the fire department and road work. Looking at it another way, they'd rather spend their money on things that probably affect their immediate lives more. It's certainly a lot easier to get whatever information you want online than it is to get your roads fixed.
- jmfayard 4y ago$24 is the cost of knowledge, but what is the cost of ignorance?
- 1MachineElf 4y agoI wonder if they understood the proposed tax was necessary funding for the library rather than extra funding.
- josephcsible 4y agoI think they absolutely understood that, and definitely preferred no library over a library operating the way theirs was.
- vlod 4y agoLibraries provide services (like wifi, printers, classes etc) to people who may not be able to afford the lifestyle most of us enjoy here. Some are interested in learning and maybe trying to get ahead. $24 in property taxes per year seems a great deal to empowering people. I'm a tech-head (like most of us here) and recently joined my local library. I was amazed about all the cool books they had (i.e. they had a lot that's been recommended here). All free for you to take home. Close the fancy macbook-pro and iphone for a weekend and try and explore the internet. It's probably harder than you think, especially if you're not financially capable or you have a crappy phone. Then go visit your local library and marvel at the wealth of information. You might be surprised how long you spend there. I certainly got flashback to my childhood, just exploring and reading.
- ohCh6zos 4y agoThis might not be the worst thing for them tactically. If they believe they benefit from the library less than their opponents.
- rayiner 4y ago“Gender Queer” is an unfortunate example of the broader movement for sex positivity creating unnecessary headwinds for LGBT rights. What’s most notable about the book is the graphic depictions of underage sex that most parents would find objectionable regardless of the gender identity of the children involved: https://www.ibtimes.sg/texas-school-sparks-outrage-after-mom-finds-gender-queer-book-sexually-explicit-cartoons-library-60974 https://www.ibtimes.sg/texas-school-sparks-outrage-after-mom.... It doesn’t help that the American Library Association gave it their Alex Award, recognizing books for children 12-18 year olds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Queer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Queer. That resulted in the book being placed in numerous middle and high school libraries. We’re a country where a supermajority of Americans supports same sex marriage and legal protections for LGBT people: https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/icymi-bidens-bostock-eo-rated-most-popular https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/icymi-bidens-bostock-eo-r... (“According to polls analyzed by FiveThirtyEight, President Biden’s most popular executive order thus far was his order prohibiting workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity earning 83% in support.”) We are also a sex negative country, one where a decisive majority of people, especially parents, and a third of self-identified “liberals,” believe teenagers having sex is immoral. https://news.gallup.com/poll/235415/four-say-teen-sex-morally-acceptable.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/235415/four-say-teen-sex-morall... I don’t think folks realize the harm they’re doing by trying to yoke unpopular sex positivism to movements seeking rights for sexual minorities. It’s not just GOP yokels in Michigan. The book generated a firestorm in northern Virginia as well, which is full of upwardly mobile Hispanic and Asian immigrants.
- tptacek 4y agoThe book, as it pertains to the story we're commenting on, was in the adult section of the Jamestown library. Your comment repeatedly uses the word "parents" as if the Jamestown library was promoting it to children. Another book that is promoted to children that includes explicit discussion of sexuality, and that has been challenged by the parents you're talking about, is the Diary of Anne Frank. I don't think "Gender Queer" belongs in school libraries. I do think the Diary of Anne Frank belongs in school libraries. Can you offer an argument that acknowledges that? I'm skeptical.
- kodah 4y agoWhat is with the "grooming" language people are using? I had someone call me that on here last week out of the blue. Edit: Since someone offered to kill me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32173179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32173179 I pretty clearly had nothing to do with that term.
- colinmhayes 4y agoAlt right rhetoric has labeled the lgbt and democratic elite and pedophiles and child groomers
- koheripbal 4y agoEpstein didn't help that image problem.
- cato_the_elder 4y agoPropaganda, the same way the "phobia" in homophobia is also propaganda.
- bigDinosaur 4y agoWait until you hear about Chemists and their propaganda that molecules can feel fear of water.
- cato_the_elder 4y agoI don't think that naive literalism is the best way to understand this. The term was coined by a psychologist in the 60's [1], and it is clearly designed to sound like the name of a psychological disease. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia#Etymology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia#Etymology
- strangeattractr 4y agoIt's a right wing epithet, a play on 'ok boomer'. It's proven a rhetorically effective insult for teachers/school officials who seem to be obsessed with discussing sex ed with very young children. Now it's banned on Twitter and other social media platforms.
- DuskStar 4y agoSo this controversy started with people protesting pro-trans books. Did the library carry any anti-trans books, like Irreversible Damage? (As a nice big radioactive example) If so, being able to point to things like that would (IMO) be a good political tool in situations like this. "We're neutral and carry both sides" goes over better than "we carry books with the correct opinions, how dare you ask us to remove them" - and the best response to bad speech is more speech anyways.
- cato_the_elder 4y ago> We're neutral and carry both sides Very often, they are not neutral. Go to your local library's website, and check out the new arrivals section. Most likely, the political bias will be very evident. Then go to the page where the list the board members, and Google their political affiliation. Finally, if you are still not convinced, send them an FOIA request to see what books they are discarding from the catalogue.
- carrotcarrot 4y agoThen request the books. Or open a discussion about neutrality. Of course, the political hysteria around this topic doesn't allow for something constructive like that.
- foepys 4y agoCan you support your allegations with evidence like a few FOIA requests and answers?
- cato_the_elder 4y agoUnfortunately, I can't do that here due to privacy reasons, and I only have done that once. But here's NYPL's new arrivals page: https://www.nypl.org/books-music-movies/new-arrivals https://www.nypl.org/books-music-movies/new-arrivals One quick check you can do is to look at the gender of the authors. Here's the list of the board members: https://www.nypl.org/help/about-nypl/leadership/board-trustees https://www.nypl.org/help/about-nypl/leadership/board-truste... If I can, I will do a rough headcount of their political affiliation and then update this comment with it.
- charcircuit 4y agoThis is democracy in action.
- cato_the_elder 4y agoAnd perhaps a demonstration of why democracy isn't always good.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- userbinator 4y agoBetter than all the alternatives.
- aliqot 4y agoWhat new options might there be?
- MichaelCollins 4y agoA thousand and one flavors of authoritarianism.
- foepys 4y ago[flagged]
- MichaelCollins 4y ago> Federal elections were held in Germany on 6 November 1932.[1] The Nazi Party saw its vote share fall by four percentage points, while there were slight increases for the Communist Party of Germany and the national conservative German National People's Party. The results were a great disappointment for the Nazis, who lost 34 seats and again failed to form a coalition government in the Reichstag. The elections were the last free and fair all-German election before the Nazi seizure of power in 1933. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_e...
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- mrtesthah 4y agoIslamic extremists believe themselves to be correct 100% of the time, including when they call for someone’s death. Can you imagine a world in which your interpretation or assessment of a person is incorrect.
- MichaelCollins 4y agoNowhere is it written that a public library must be publicly funded. Thousands of libraries across America have been founded and funded with private donations. Andrew Carnegie alone funded the construction of 2509 public libraries around the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library 37% of the town wants the library funded, and I think out-of-town donations could be solicited too, donors probably wouldn't be too hard to find considering this controversy seems to have become international news.
- Defletter 4y ago> Nowhere is it written that a public library must be publicly funded Uuuuh, I mean, I could understand you saying that a /library/ doesn't need to be publicly funded, but a /public library/, being publicly funded is kind of its whole deal.
- MichaelCollins 4y agoYou're mistaken; a public library is a library that is open to the general public. They are often publicly funded as well, but not necessarily so. Some public libraries are privately funded, and some private libraries are publicly funded (e.g. university libraries closed to the general public, at schools that receive public funding) The 'public' in public library refers to who the library is open to, not how the library is funded.
- xbar 4y agoWell said. A library endowment is, for example, a thing.
- koheripbal 4y agoGiven the access to information now available on the internet - the underlying societal value of libraries is greatly diminished.
- kepler1 4y agoI guess it's just another test in the grand experiment of whether our country's firmware is the most successful choice over time. Do people's expressed self-interests (or those guided by some aspect of human nature) being allowed to update the firmware lead to optimum progress of society? On what timescale? Who is to say except on looking back afterwards? Some trees grow quickly and dominate the forest after 15 years. But they fall to the passing storm in favor of the oak which took more time to grow but at first didn't appear so large, but then lasts for hundreds of years.
- slt2021 4y agoLibrary does not exist in a vacuum, it must serve the needs of their local residents. If residents think that queer pornographic novels should not be on display for kids at library, then it kinda makes sense to curate content to meet the needs of residents. Those who need this book desperately can always checkout this book online. Good decision to organize grassroots movement among residents and tell library board clearly that library is not meeting needs of its residents/constituents/taxpayers. the subject of grooming is very alarming too, indoctrination of kids (in one way) is unacceptable
- nindalf 4y ago> indoctrination Do you honestly believe that a person can read a book about a gay person and think “yeah, sounds good. I’m gay now”? I have no doubt that low intelligence ignorant homophobes believe this. They might not be aware of scientific research that links gayness with genetics. What do you believe?
- slt2021 4y agothere is scientific research about "rapid onset gender confusion" that is created from grooming practices in media and peer pressure. If one girl in a class comes out as a trans, her friends are more likely to come out as well, which then is reversed some time later. https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10508-021-02163-w.pdf https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10508-021-021... you are just ignorant of these side effects of grooming and are not aware of scientific research that links peer pressure and media pressure(grooming) with fake gender confusion among teens
- pseudalopex 4y agoThe term is rapid onset gender dysphoria. And it's 1 paper where the author selected for parents who refused to accept their children were trans. You can call it scientific if you believe teenagers tell their parents everything and people never block out things they don't want to hear.
- nindalf 4y agoMost comments are about the library, which makes sense. I think it’s curious how the strategy of homophobes have shifted over the years. Earlier they would simply say “gayness is a sin that needs to be wiped out”. But no, it’s a social faux pas to be outright homophobic. So they’ve rebranded with “but think of the children”. I have no doubt that they believe a teenager could read a book and decide to be gay. Studies on genetics say otherwise, but these are not the kind of folks who might not be inclined towards understanding genetics.
- cato_the_elder 4y ago> Studies on genetics say otherwise It's actually not that clear. Like most traits, both genetics and environment play a role. Also, you are straw-manning the "homophobic" position. Humans have self-control, and having a desire doesn't mean one should act on it.
- pseudalopex 4y agoThey always said think of the children.
- azinman2 4y agoThe use of the word grooming is new, although the reference to pedophilia is not. What’s crazy is how that can carry weight in 2022.
- matrix_overload 4y agoAm I the only one that finds the censorship angle weird? Let's say, Alice wants to communicate a piece of information to Bob. Both are interested in it. Mike decides that it's against his interest and blocks the communication. This is textbook censorship. In this example, Alice decides that certain information needs to be pushed into Bob's attention span at Bob's expense, and Bob refuses to fund it. I don't think it is the same. Denial of attention? Yes. Censorship? Not really.
- MichaelCollins 4y agoSeems like a tortured analogy; "Bob" is not a single person but rather a town of a few thousand. And "pushed into Bob's attention span" means a book sitting on the shelf where any of the 'Bobs' can pick it up if they want to, or ignore it otherwise.
- matrix_overload 4y agoI don't think sitting on the shelf is ever a problem. What many people don't like is the reading events where the books presenting a complex problem from a very specific and questionable viewpoint are forced into kids' attention span without their parents explicitly asking for it.
- pseudalopex 4y agoBooks sitting on shelves are challenged all the time. The article had photos of materials distributed by opponents. They mentioned books added to the adult section. They didn't mention reading events. A Pride Month display in the young adult section was the closest thing. And where are children forced to attend public library readings?
- MichaelCollins 4y agoWhatever happened to parental supervision? My mother hated grim horror stuff, no Goosebumps for me. If the reading hour had books of that sort, my mother would pull me out of it. Those books were on the shelves, but she didn't allow me to read them. It's not like we're talking about public schooling where children are a captive audience of the state (at least for any family that can't afford private schooling.) Library reading hours for kids are entirely at the discretion of parents.
- azinman2 4y agoWhat I find hilariously hypocritical about these book bans is the same people screaming for them also blame “big tech” and “the media” for censoring conservative ideas. Zero self-awareness.
- josephcsible 4y agoWould you support your tax dollars being used to provide free hosting platforms to Parler and Gab? That's how "the same people screaming for them" feel about their tax dollars being used to provide free access to the books in question.
- Ekaros 4y agoMaybe they have understood that it is time to give up the moral upper ground. And just use same tactics that other side have exploited.
- glitcher 4y agoChange is difficult for many. Our society is evolving towards recognizing people who historically have been invisible or ostracized to dangerous and tragic ends. The pendulum of acceptance is finally swinging in the direction of seeing all the fantastic variations of who real humans truly are instead of shunning those that don't fit the standard mold. It saddens me to see so much resistance to these groundbreaking advancements towards embracing the beautiful variations of what the human experience really is. And remember, that pendulum has swung extremely unfavorably against so many people for hundreds if not thousands of years. And suddenly when it swings in their favor for just a blip of historical time, those too afraid to embrace the true chaotic tapestry of what makes each of us unique seem all too quick to make decisions towards returning to erasing those individuals who have just barely begun to be seen as human.
- nathanaldensr 4y agoYour characterization of "beautiful variations" is not shared by everyone.
- Defletter 4y agoUuuuh, yeah, that's kinda what his comment was saying xD
- zerof1l 4y agoUSA is taking PC correctness to the extreme. Trying to rewrite history and censor books that are deemed inappropriate. The craze with cultural misappropriation and alike. There soon will be no freedom of expression and free speech in this country.