3 ms·

I honestly can't understand what's wrong with this. Obviously, wealthy people want to live somewhere the there are no poor people. Class divides, including very

I honestly can't understand what's wrong with this. Obviously, wealthy people want to live somewhere the there are no poor people. Class divides, including very physical divides, are a necessity in any society where there are well, classes. Only way to make it unnecessary is to destroy the concept of classes as it is by making it almost impossible to get rich. In any society where there are no losers, no poverty or homelessness, there are also no winners, you can't have the cake and eat it too. Yes here in Europe we are much less likely to face a stinking meth addict in a bus, but we are also almost unable to start a startup and win it big, and these are two sides of the same issue, you can't possibly separate them. To "fix" the problem of class divide and poverty, not just you need to introduce a cradle to grave social support system and overwhelming taxes to fund it, you need to also make the very idea of becoming rich morally unacceptable in the society.

malermeister 4y ago
Look at Vienna's Gemeindebau for a counterexample. It's high quality public housing where classes mingle. Two thirds of Vienna lives in public housing and the City of Vienna is the largest landlord in Europe. [0] It is, probably on a related note, also the city with the highest quality of live in the world for as long as I can remember. [1] [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-architecture-austria-stigma/ https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-archit... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/23/vienna-named-worlds-top-city-for-quality-of-life https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/23/vienna-name...
- anovikov 4y ago
  That one is super easy! That "renting" is actually, a form of ownership where you "own" the rental contract. It's impossible to get in for a new person without decades of waiting, if ever - because there is no free lunch, if rent is many times lower than market rate, there will be a queue (or gatekeepers from who you simply buy your place in the queue). It's not a solution, just a way to keep outsiders out not too dissimilar to redlining: probably if you grandfather wasn't born in the same city, it's all but impossible to get in.
  - malermeister 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you're talking about with your ownership point. Renting is renting, and of course you're a party to the rental contract. Vienna is constantly building new Social housing and new people get in all the time. To your grandfather point: A third of people living there weren't even born in Austria, so it's not really a generational thing like you misrepresent it to be https://www.diepresse.com/69243/migration-gemeindebau-ein-drittel-neo-oesterreicher https://www.diepresse.com/69243/migration-gemeindebau-ein-dr... (in German, use Google translate) Good things can happen if we let them.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> Class divides, including very physical divides, are a necessity in any society where there are well, classes. Really? Britain is a country noted for its class divides; and yet there are very few class enclaves in major British cities. Most people live in a mixed neighbourhood, with renters and owners all jumbled up, and with social housing mixed in. Sure, there are some pretty nasty social housing "estates" (groups of apartment blocks); but those estates are liberally sprinkled around - they occur in more prosperous neighbourhoods as well as cheaper places. The USA used to claim it was a "classless society".
imtringued 4y ago
Actually all you need to do is let people help themselves by taxing liquidity and giving everyone a fair share of the land on this planet. The moment money and land ownership doesn't tie people to specific economic hubs the idea of a class based society becomes ridiculous.
- anovikov 4y ago
  What am i missing here? There's plenty of free or almost free land everywhere including in rich countries. Just not where someone wants to live. Drive one hour from where the jobs are in any direction and you get almost free land. But people are leaving those places, not going there, for some mysterious reasons. What do you mean by "taxing liquidity", i don't even understand. Negative interest on bank deposits? It's already effectively there for about a generation.
  - Tiktaalik 4y ago
    > There's plenty of free or almost free land everywhere including in rich countries There is absolutely not.

malermeister 4y ago

Look at Vienna's Gemeindebau for a counterexample. It's high quality public housing where classes mingle. Two thirds of Vienna lives in public housing and the City of Vienna is the largest landlord in Europe. [0] It is, probably on a related note, also the city with the highest quality of live in the world for as long as I can remember. [1] [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-architecture-austria-stigma/ https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-archit... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/23/vienna-named-worlds-top-city-for-quality-of-life https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/23/vienna-name...

anovikov 4y ago
That one is super easy! That "renting" is actually, a form of ownership where you "own" the rental contract. It's impossible to get in for a new person without decades of waiting, if ever - because there is no free lunch, if rent is many times lower than market rate, there will be a queue (or gatekeepers from who you simply buy your place in the queue). It's not a solution, just a way to keep outsiders out not too dissimilar to redlining: probably if you grandfather wasn't born in the same city, it's all but impossible to get in.
- malermeister 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you're talking about with your ownership point. Renting is renting, and of course you're a party to the rental contract. Vienna is constantly building new Social housing and new people get in all the time. To your grandfather point: A third of people living there weren't even born in Austria, so it's not really a generational thing like you misrepresent it to be https://www.diepresse.com/69243/migration-gemeindebau-ein-drittel-neo-oesterreicher https://www.diepresse.com/69243/migration-gemeindebau-ein-dr... (in German, use Google translate) Good things can happen if we let them.

denton-scratch 4y ago

> Class divides, including very physical divides, are a necessity in any society where there are well, classes. Really? Britain is a country noted for its class divides; and yet there are very few class enclaves in major British cities. Most people live in a mixed neighbourhood, with renters and owners all jumbled up, and with social housing mixed in. Sure, there are some pretty nasty social housing "estates" (groups of apartment blocks); but those estates are liberally sprinkled around - they occur in more prosperous neighbourhoods as well as cheaper places. The USA used to claim it was a "classless society".

imtringued 4y ago

Actually all you need to do is let people help themselves by taxing liquidity and giving everyone a fair share of the land on this planet. The moment money and land ownership doesn't tie people to specific economic hubs the idea of a class based society becomes ridiculous.

anovikov 4y ago
What am i missing here? There's plenty of free or almost free land everywhere including in rich countries. Just not where someone wants to live. Drive one hour from where the jobs are in any direction and you get almost free land. But people are leaving those places, not going there, for some mysterious reasons. What do you mean by "taxing liquidity", i don't even understand. Negative interest on bank deposits? It's already effectively there for about a generation.
- Tiktaalik 4y ago
  > There's plenty of free or almost free land everywhere including in rich countries There is absolutely not.