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Jack Dorsey does 8 hours at Twitter, 8 hours at Square daily
- draz 15y agohaving just recently finished reading the Jobs biography, this turn of events for Dorsey reminds me of him: ousted from leadership, appointment on the board, heading a new company (Square vs. Pixar), and then serving as head of two companies simultaneously.
- lowglow 15y agoI do 16 hours daily at my start-up, only get paid a fraction of the price. I'm doing something wrong.
- diego 15y agoYou are. The worst possible thing you can do at a startup is plow ahead and put in hours like crazy. Just like Steve Jobs killed product lines, or an engineer removes thousands of lines of code, you can remove 100 hours from the next month if you think about it carefully for one hour.
- chunkbot 15y agoI'm pretty sure Steve Jobs put in 16 hours a day when Apple was still a startup. I'm not saying you should do that, but it might not be wrong to.
- samtp 15y agoYeah, get off hacker news and back to work.
- pxlpshr 15y ago<rant> Four-hour work week? Work smarter, not harder? I just don't buy those kind of ideologies if you really believe your idea will change the world. If you want a lifestyle business that provides for you and your next of kin, more power to you. And if that's the route you take, please stop trying to convenience everyone your path to enlightenment is the right way. For awhile, I found that whole movement to be quasi-religious and therefore quite annoying. When you love what you do, it's not work and therefore there's no reason to want to avoid it. And that's why they win. </rant>
- jbellis 15y agoIIRC Ferriss arrived at his "four hour" week exactly by not counting work-related activities he enjoyed, as work.
- peteretep 15y agoActually, he arrived there by split-testing different names for his book on Google. Four Hour just happened to be the catchiest.
- chunkbot 15y agoIf I recall correctly, Four Hour Workweek doesn't say you can change the world in four hours a week. It specifically describes how a "lifestyle business" can provide for you and let you travel many days out of the year.
- shantanubala 15y agoYou recall correctly. The key takeaway from that book (from my perspective) is that you can make enough money to sustain yourself doing as minimal work as possible that lets you do what you want with your time. If you want to travel and sip wine with your time, go for it. Or, you can start an exciting new business in your free time without sacrificing all your cash flow and taking huge risks.
- aliston 15y agoMy experience is that it more or less depends on your goals. I tried to do the 4 hour workweek thing and it worked... kind of. As others noted, it probably is possible to support yourself in a frugal lifestyle in 4 hours, but you're still left with the question of what to do with the other hours of the day. I've seen enough startups up close now to pretty confidently say that if you want to succeed in the startup world, its gonna take some 100 hour weeks. So, if you want to do a startup, you'd better make sure you love what you're doing.
- ahoyhere 15y ago"Lifestyle business" is a strawman argument. The fact is, all -- ALL -- the research on work effectiveness & work-related health shows that this kind of work schedule is terrible. Not only do you stop working effectively after a few hours (you only get the illusion of still being sharp), it's terrible for your body.
- twog 15y agoThat is simply unbelievable, but Im not sure you can sustain a healthy life with with 16 hour work days
- gravitronic 15y agoThe key word of your post is "sustain". You may be doing it now, but the cost of the 16 hour days is going to take it's toll.
- jinushaun 15y agoDoable if you don't have a family or care to hang out with friends. The key is really to work with your friends so work doesn't feel like work.
- _delirium 15y agoThere's also significant variation (apparently biological) in how much sleep per night people need. If you're one of the people who can get by fine with 5 hrs/night of sleep, you have almost 20% more awake time over someone who needs 8 hrs/night to maintain the same alertness. (You can also try to modify it via caffeine or other drugs. I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but apparently many of the people historically known for their superhuman workhours were heavy amphetamine users--- Winston Churchill, Ayn Rand, Paul Erdős.)
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- phren0logy 15y agoI did 80+ hours per week for years in medical school, residency, and fellowship. Many people in medicine make a career of it. It's not as unusual as you think. There is certainly a fair argument to be made that it's not particularly healthy or a good idea, but I can assure you that for some people it's quite sustainable.
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- funkydata 15y agoCrazy. I really would prefer working 4 hours max each day. Or achieving the 4-hour workweek. That and work from home at first, then everywhere. :)
- wavephorm 15y agoThat's impressive, but I can't understand how either of these companies are happy with that situation. It's like trying to argue a polygamist can be fully dedicated to both families.
- mwbiz 15y agoAgreed, as a shareholder I'd also prefer to have a well rested CEO dedicated to just one company
- a3camero 15y agoMany employers have agreements prohibiting their employees from having other jobs. Most people can't work two full-time jobs productively.
- rpicard 15y agoHow many hours would they expect him to put in normally?
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- dpcan 15y agoI don't think it would be the hours as much as the mental focus. When I get done working for 8 hours, I'm usually with my family about an hour and a half before I can mentally break away from what I've been doing all day, and some nights my mind will always be on my tasks no matter how hard I try to refocus. Imagine going from 1 high pressure 8 hours job to another with only a 2 block walk between them, maybe lunch. I don't know, it sounds like overload to me.
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- Chrono 15y agoExtremely impressive but is it really sustainable in the long run? I personally do not think that working 16hr days is good for you in the long run. It is not healthy. What use is he if he gets burned out in a year or two? Not much I would wager. Sure one might argue that this pattern of long working hours is crucial in the first few years of a company. The question if he does so much more in 16 hours than he could have done in say ten or twelve? I doubt you can remain very efficient 16 hours per day.
- goatcurious 15y agoWonder what the bankers would say to that...
- Chrono 15y agoI'm sure they would disagree with me but to be fair, will you make good decisions if you don't sleep enough and work 16 hours a day? I'm thinking sure, if this goes on for a short period of time but most people will eventually burn out. Many can, of course, handle such working conditions but it can hardly be considered healthy in the long run.
- mbesto 15y agoMany would simply say "I'll do it for 4-5 years and then make some other junior analyst do it for me when I'm a manager". It's a pump-dump mentality internally you know...
- chaz 15y agoRegardless of whether or not he actually works 16 hour days, the Monday through Friday scheduling and focus on specific areas of the business are really interesting. An entire Friday dedicated to the company and culture -- fantastic for building a team that's with you for the long haul.
- niklas_a 15y agoClever guy. First he builds Twitter to make sure all other entrepreneurs are busy checking their tweets. Then he starts another company without any competition.
- johnnyg 15y agoHe is joking people. And it is a good one. :-)
- goatcurious 15y agoerr.. the two comments below are also jokes! one is not so funny and the other is rather sad
- goatcurious 15y agosounds so sinister. maybe there is an agenda behind square too - making everyone open a mom & pop store or sell from a cart - leaving the field open for him to bulldoze the high tech stuff
- koko775 15y agoWell...VenMo is competition and waives the transaction fee - so there's definitely competition there. I still think Square is superior, though.
- blhack 15y ago<snark>Poor guy, someday I hope he doesn't have to do that.</snark> It makes me a little sick to see some people idolize this.
- meanJim 15y agoHe has accomplished a lot, and we all try to stand on the shoulders of giants.
- billpatrianakos 15y agoAgreed. We all have to remember we're not Jack Dorsey. A year ago I might have actually tried to emulate this. Experience tells me unless it's coming naturally it's a kamikaze mission. I totally respect mr. Dorsey, I just hope to god the naive don't get a hold of this article and start copying the 16 hour work day part.
- robryan 15y agoIt depends on timespan, if he thinks that doing this for a short time will be a big plus for both companies then it could be an okay trade off.
- johnny6 15y agoHe should maybe buy an island and retire, since both Twitter (less and less used and not used by anyone under 30) and Square (with NFC on the horizon) can basically only go down.
- emehrkay 15y agoFor some reason, his Foundation interview made me a fan. Cant call it. He just seemed in control http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQy_HFHOZug http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQy_HFHOZug
- theshadow 15y agopfft... All I see in the article are 8 unproductive hours every day. Research has shown that humans really don't need 8hrs sleep to work at their optimal best and 4-5 hrs of sleep should be more than enough. He could use those extra 4 hrs every to further develop the companies or even better try launch another startup on the side. Also walking 2 blocks every day between the two companies? That seems a waste of time which should be spent working, I know it doesn't sound much but walking two block every day adds up as a ton of wasted time. He should iron that inefficiency out of his schedule by having a common office for both jobs and using skype if he really needs to talk to someone. Also taking weekends off? Don't even get me started on that.
- andrewpi 15y agoResearch has shown that humans really don't need 8hrs sleep to work at their optimal best and 4-5 hrs of sleep should be more than enough. Citation please? It's my understanding that losing even 1 hour of sleep a night will add up over time and cause all sorts of cognitive problems.
- dotBen 15y ago(pssst, andrewpi, I think theshaddow's parent comment is tongue-in-cheek.)
- shad0wfax 15y agoI am not surprised or in awe that he is putting in 16 hours a day. Every passionate founder would likely be doing it. I am sure most of us have heard Steve Job's on how building a company is usually a 18x7 work-week. What I am in awe and admiration is that he is managing two companies and in this case two completely different ones by nature! A rule generally accepted in the startup land is that you don't work on multiple ideas, in order to stay focussed on building one thing well. While twitter is not a startup (any longer) and Square is probably a very big/late-phase startup (if we can qualify it as that), they both definitely need the caring and nurturing of a founder (IMO). Given that, it is remarkable he is able to do the context switch needed to run both the companies. I would love to know how effective his leadership is, in both these companies, given that he isn't there longer than a typical day in either of them. I am so tempted to try doing more than one thing, but then since I am a coder, I guess its not easy to digress daily as he can.
- davidhansen 15y agoA rule generally accepted in the startup land is that you don't work on multiple ideas Interesting. I have not heard this before. As it stands, I have always worked on multiple projects for as long as I can remember. My current main company started out as a side project, for example. Is there a canonical reference or blog post that the startup community refers to, to elucidate the reasons for one-project focus?
- shad0wfax 15y agoThe reference I can quote here is from a recent essay PG wrote: http://paulgraham.com/stypi.html http://paulgraham.com/stypi.html. Watch the definition of startup #10 (Avoid Distractions) - http://www.stypi.com/hacks/13sentences http://www.stypi.com/hacks/13sentences The other source again from PG, that I can infer as not doing too many things/working on too many ideas is: http://www.paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html http://www.paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html Read the #18 (A Half-hearted attempt) I am sure there are folks who have juggled more than one Idea and succeeded in all of them. Also, I think the relevance of these posts also probably make sense to someone starting out early (like say during building the product/company) and probably not for someone who already is working on established companies (like in Jack's case). IF you see Jack in fact moved out of twitter to completely focus on Square and only when it had hit the road running, did he embark back on twitter.
- run4yourlives 15y agoGood for him. Regardless of whether or not it's sustainable, I simply do not want that type of lifestyle. If I'm not as "successful" because of that, so be it.
- rokhayakebe 15y agoI simply do not want that type of lifestyle What kind of lifestyle do you want? When given the chance, most entrepreneurs will work 16 hours on their company. If you only had 8 hours, you may be more likely to do a better job at managing your time/tasks.
- run4yourlives 15y ago>What kind of lifestyle do you want? A balanced one. I already spend a vast majority of my waking hours focused on "work". I also have my kids, my wife and other leisure activities that I find make my life worth living. Given these pieces of life, which most entrepreneurs have - most entrepreneurs will not want to work 16 hours a day on their companies.
- kayoone 15y agoI hear you, but you can talk about that with a guz in his early twenties who has no responsibilities in terms of family. I dont work 16 hours a day, but i work alot and putting my friends down again and again when they ask me to go out etc is sometimes frustrating and does not work very well for a long time. Same goes for family of course.
- maximusprime 15y agoI'd say "success" should be measured in more broad terms... "How much work do I put into my marriage/children/etc", "How much fun am I having?" etc I'd agree, his lifestyle seems as out of balance as someone who does no work at all.
- prawn 15y agoWhat's interesting is that he could have cashed out after Twitter and led an incredibly entertaining and enjoyable life, but still chooses to push on further for more success, more challenges, etc to the extent that such a huge portion of his waking life is taken by "work" like this. I could understand it (and put in a lot of hours myself) driving to get that first home run, but less so afterwards. I'd struggle to sit idle and travelling non-stop isn't the holiday everyone thinks it is, but my dream lifestyle definitely wouldn't involve 16 hour days once I had the means to pursue all my interests to a desired extent.
- billpatrianakos 15y agoThis is not something to be idolized. Maybe it works for Jack, or maybe it's really exaggerated but there are going to be people reading this that are going to want to try it. I feel bad for those people. Your first instinct is to think that you can't succeed without killing yourself. Then you figure out that if you're killing yourself youve forgotten why you started to begin with.
- AznHisoka 15y agoThat's exactly what I was thinking while reading this. The person who wrote this article just sees things at the surface, and lacks any insight/depth into the long term consequences. Jack Dorsey may be a freak, but for most people, working this long leads to mental breakdowns, and health problems. It makes for great journalism, but that's about all.
- billpatrianakos 15y agoAgreed. I see a lot of articles that scare me lately. They make it sound like business owners should do these things. These stories are the exception, not the rule.
- kerryfalk 15y agoBuilding companies as successful as Twitter and Square are also the exception, not the rule.
- mgkimsal 15y agoHe didn't build Twitter working this way. He's now managing its current course/growth this way.
- kerryfalk 15y agoHe's still building Twitter and Square. Jobs never stopped building Apple. Building companies goes well beyond building apps. This comes up frequently on HN and seems to polarize people. The more it polarizes people the more on the fence I seem to find myself. I have worked similar hours split between two companies for four years. At times it sucks and at times it's great. Everyone is different. From what I have learned from others, exceptional results require exceptional work and passion. Working 16 hours days is how it works for Jack. Ben Hogan was reported to work with a similar ethic when he started his golf career and he's now known among many as the greatest ball striker ever. To me that's admirable, to others it isn't. Both positions are acceptable.
- ivankirigin 15y agoNote that this means he gives much less to each company than any startup founder I know.
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- jobeyonekenobi 15y agoI posted this in the other thread about his hours: Being a manager and accutely aware of legal ramifications of hours worked (boring I know), does anyone have any insight into whether there is something in the US akin to the European Worktime Directive? Over here (UK, but the E.U as a whole) the average working week is 40 hours by law, and the worker must opt in to be eligble to work upto a maximum of 70 hours per week. As well as this 70 hour maximum, 11 hours must be taken between end of work one day and start of work the next, and an entire 24 hour period of non-work must be taken once every 7 days, or alternativley a period of 48 hours of non-work must be taken in a 14 day period. Any comments?
- JackDanger 15y agoThe U.S. has nothing like that for salaried employees.
- rpwilcox 15y agoIANAL, but I believe the law is slightly more nuanced than that: http://www.dol.gov/compliance/topics/wages-overtime-pay.htm http://www.dol.gov/compliance/topics/wages-overtime-pay.htm Overtime doesn't apply to a number of class of workers (including executive, administration, professional, outside sales, and computer related workers). And I believe you could read "professional" as "anyone with a college degree working a white-collar job". Having said that, you're essentially correct...
- runako 15y agoI believe "professional" effectively means "salaried". Salaried employees generally don't get overtime. Details are in a page linked from the parent (see Learned Professional Exemption): http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17d_professional.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17d_profess...
- rpwilcox 15y agoIf you're a learned professional (matching all of the three criteria on the page - one of which is salaried), artist/creative, teacher, law/medicine practioner, or are highly compensated (making > $100,000/year) overtime doesn't apply to you. At least, that's what I got out of the page.
- antirez 15y agoJack Dorsey does 8 hours at Twitter, 8 hours at Square, 0 hours at life, daily. In other words Jack is free to do whatever he likes, but it is not a good example for most of us. I'll cite a very short poetry by a Sicilian poet called Salvatore Quasimodo: "Everyone stands alone on the heart of the earth / transfixed by a ray of sunshine / and it is suddenly night"
- gws 15y agoHaving lived in Italy and the US I can tell you there is a cultural divide that makes these verses very hard to grasp that side of the Atlantic. This translation in English is beautiful though
- bproper 15y agoCan anyone from Square or Twitter confirm this work schedule?
- igorgue 15y agoDid you really just ask that question? Unless somebody says: "Yes, and he even work more" you are not gonna get someone saying "No he doesn't work that much".
- lwhi 15y agoPerhaps this is actually the time he spends using each service ...
- n8agrin 15y agoI left Twitter about a month ago and would say this is pretty accurate.
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- jes5199 15y agoWell, they don't actually let us follow Jack around all day - we have our own jobs to do. So no, I honestly have no idea how long he's in the office or outside the office doing Square work or at the other company.
- brianbreslin 15y agowhich company do you think will produce a bigger return for him? or make him wealthier?
- rationalbeats 15y agoMaybe explains why Twitter is so bad at so many things. Like making money. Why don't they offer a customized twitter feeds of all the GOP presidential candidates and sell ads off of that feed? For example... I have had a strong suspicion that the upper management at Twitter are not really on top of it, they appear lazy, and content with just going along for the ride, instead of steering the what appears to be rudderless ship.
- kayoone 15y agoWell the schedule looks like its not really "hard" work. When i do all these things in my startup i feel like i am not really working, i only have the feeling of accomplishment when i write code and improve the product. Marketing and Biz dev sure is very important but personally i dont feel like i get stuff done when doing it, which might be bad. Then again i couldnt put in 16 hours of work everyday, thats insane and i cant believe hes doing that for a very long time. After 10-12 hours of coding and working on technical things, i am done for the day. Some sport in the evening to stay healthy and blow off steam and thats it. And even that leaves me with very little real life during the week, which sometimes is frustrating.
- tomcreighton 15y agoWell, kudos for being devoted to his business(es), but how much is he bringing to the table during each of those 8-hour periods? If I was working 16-hour days every day, I'm almost certain I'd be less productive than if I was working 'normal' or even reduced-hour days. Maybe he's just _that_ energetic, but my ability to get meaningful work done is not an endless fount. Downtime is important.
- thenextcorner 15y agoNow that is what I call impressive and determined. This is how you get ahead and be successful, off course with a smart mind and the skills Jack has, it makes a difference!
- tryitnow 15y agoUnfortunately, I think a lot of people may miss the most useful point of this article: blocking out days by themes as a productivity booster. The big headline is about working 16 hours days, but that headline grabber will distract from the most useful nugget of information: how he does it. The really cool thing about this article is theme-blocking his days. Has anyone tried that? If so, how has it worked?
- ethank 15y agoBecause of the tuesday-tuesday nature of the record business, working at a label necessitated this. Monday->Engineering maintenance for records. Lots of email blasts and such, site maintenance. Tuesday - Release day, also radio promo meetings. Executive meeting Wednesday - Marketing meeting. This was when results of the last week's sales were finalized so also reconciling retail with stats and such. Thursday - typically a big launch day for us. Friday - clean up, product dev work, department stuff. It was a 0 launch day.
- bretthellman 15y agoHow is that even possible given the number of times he speaks at events?
- lurker17 15y agoSpeaking at events is part of his job.
- MaysonL 15y agoAnd how many hours with his PR agent?
- bbhacker 15y agoI think Jack Dorsey is doing an amazing job and it is extraordinary what he has shown at Twitter and Square. That being said, what we are seeing here is basically "story telling" and "legend building" in action. The same happened when Jeff Immelt took over GE and The story was "Look at that guy! The hardest working GE employee, putting in 100 hours a week. What a leader!" (you can Google it). While I believe that Jack didn't craft a master plan for this, somebody is certainly putting some effort into building a coherent story that helps Jack but ultimately also Twitter and Square and therefore its investors. And once again: it get's us talking as well, so I would say: Mission Accomplished.
- ahoyhere 15y agoYou're right. It's called hagiography -- a term HNers would do well to learn.
- Cl4rity 15y agoWhy is everyone complaining that this isn't a lifestyle to idolize or emulate when the resounding sentiment here is that it isn't a lifestyle to IDOLIZE OR EMULATE? We get it. I get it. You get it. Everyone gets it. I think plenty of the commenters here do a damn fine job of trivializing other readers' intelligence. I'm also certain that Jack Dorsey doesn't work 16-hour days for the attention. We didn't know this up until now, and Twitter and Square have been running just fine. That's what matters, and if Dorsey feels like putting in that much time is necessary, so be it. If he burns out, he'll burn out; if he doesn't, good for him.
- alexhawket 15y ago"If you work hard, and become successful, it does not necessarily mean you are successful because you worked hard, just as if you are tall with long hair it doesn’t mean you would be a midget if you were bald."
- drewblaisdell 15y agoI will never, ever work 16 hour days like this. That said, if I cofounded Twitter and Square (and thus had that much of an effect on the world), I sure as hell would work a lot.
- BadassFractal 15y agoI can easily do 60-70 hour weeks as long as I use the weekend too, but 16 hour days are ridiculous. I can't believe that the guy is able to give his 100% every day for 5 days a week at both companies. The most a normal person would be able to do is a half-assed job, but perhaps Jack is just an ubermensch.
- jvoorhis 15y agoI've worked with startups in varying capacities for 6 years and my schedule is always tight. Jack Dorsey represents the limit, but I wonder whether the topical schedule (Mon: management, Tues: product, etc.) is a good organizational tactic for those of us who wear many hats.
- brousky 15y agoDoes this mean 8 hours per day is enough if you're CEO of a single company?
- mathias 15y agoSo, do one of these companies work at night, or what? 7am to 3pm = 8 hours 4pm to 12am = 8 hours