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Amazing. I wish there were more discussions about this most important topic on HN, and more generally on describing how we are depleting earth’s resources and d

Amazing. I wish there were more discussions about this most important topic on HN, and more generally on describing how we are depleting earth’s resources and dispersing them everywhere, transforming it into a giant pile of garbage (gaseous garbage in the case of GHG). Sadly, climate change is not even the only imminent threat, when 60% of vertebrae have disappeared in 50 years for example, among many others… We need to invent a new storytelling for society to have an organized energetic and material de-growth, so that we don’t have to undergo a disorganized one, forced upon us by nature, that would be orders of magnitude worse. Technology can be a huge help in organizing this de-growth, so I guess HN could be a great forum for collectively imagining how to do it!

logifail 4y ago
> Technology can be a huge help in organizing this de-growth[..] Errm, what? Apologies for appearing to be negative, but isn't technology one of the main contributors to the mess we're in?
- solardev 4y ago
- felixmeziere 4y ago
  Absolutely agree, I didn’t want people to fixate on this fact so I preferred focusing on the positive and not mention it, but technology alone without deciding collectively how to repurpose it (this is a huge philosophical/cultural change where we need to decide together that black Friday and going to space for fun are lame, for example) is not going to be the solution. As you said so far we have observed it has only made the problem worse, year after year after year! And with the little margin we have left, it’s irrational to take the bet it’ll change by itself and just “improving”.
eej71 4y ago
I think one of the challenges that the movement faces is that since the 1960's, there have been many disaster claims - sometimes bordering on the fantastical - and they simply don't come to pass. Not sure why this go-around should be given more credibility.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  you know how in the boy who cried wolf, there is a wolf.
  - pc86 4y ago
    If that's your takeaway I don't think you're getting from the story what you're supposed to.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      I mean if we're going for snarky takedowns how about "if you identify most strongly with the attention-seeking liar in the story I don't think I need your advice." But more seriously you can take more than one lesson from a tale. "A threat may be real even if the one relaying it lacks credibility" is not a neat or satisfying morality lesson to feed to children, but it remains true in my experience.
- Sharlin 4y ago
  For the past 20 to 30 years, the climate science community has been consistently nothing but EXTREMELY conservative in all their predictions in order to not being labeled as alarmist. Newsflash: they were STILL labeled alarmist AND also ignored because whatever happens in 50 years is Someone Else's Problem, can't be bothered to think beyond the next quartal or election cycle. Look! A shiny new thing! Consume! Consume! Now it's becoming clear that almost everything is happening way faster than the conservative models estimated. Humanity just. can't. win. against itself.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > conservative in all their predictions in order to not being labeled as alarmist. Newsflash: they were STILL labeled alarmist It doesn't matter how reasonable you try to sound, some people will still hate what you stand for. They don't require logic to hate you, and they don't require the claims against you to be true. And if you compromise your principles to appeal to these people, you will loose support from both sides. So you might as well stick to your guns and put these people on blast.
deepdriver 4y ago
De-growth means lowering humanity's total energy output. Lowering our total energy output means lowering humanity's average life expectancy, quality of life, and the size of our overall economic pie. These are all negative side-effects with comparable potential for societal destabilization as the effects of rising sea levels or increasing global temperatures. There are solutions to climate change that avoid de-growth and its many negative consequences, such as increasing our investment in nuclear energy. Some states already see things this way, such as China, where the government has announced plans to build 150 new reactors by 2050: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-climate-goals-hinge-on-440-billion-nuclear-power-plan-to-rival-u-s https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-cli...
- badtension 4y ago
  Your reasoning is flawed, technically if we make things last longer, be repairable, skip vacations on the other side of the planet and stop buying so much cheap plastic crap we would most definitely "degrow" but the quality of life would at least remain unchanged. Capitalism is a beast that needs constant feeding, it doesn't do much good in many cases, it's just growth for the sake of it.
  - bwestergard 4y ago
    Kate Soper makes the case that quality of life would improve significantly if we took these steps. The carbon-intensive "good life" leaves us time poor and stressed.
  - felixmeziere 4y ago
    Preach
  - cortesoft 4y ago
    You can argue how much a change in quality of life it is, but not being able to travel or buy cheap plastic things is certainly a reduction in quality of life.
    - 4y ago
nradov 4y ago
You aren't going to get anyone to embrace de-growth by telling stories. Instead, find ways that technology can enable continued growth while simultaneously decreasing environmental impact. If you force people to pick between global warming versus a major step down in living standards, a lot of them are just going to say screw it and pick global warming.
- felixmeziere 4y ago
  Everyone tells themselves stories. Like « what’s cool in life is to try and be a billionaire so I can get a private jet and everybody treat me like a king », or, at the level of a country « we should build entire new cities and airports and stimulate growth to increase GDP which is the main metric measuring our success » or, if you are an economist: “what nature has concentrated for us for free for millions of years, like oil, clean air, water, sand for construction etc, is free”. I’m not talking about telling stories to people but about changing theses stories they already tell themselves that have been implanted into them by a system

logifail 4y ago

> Technology can be a huge help in organizing this de-growth[..] Errm, what? Apologies for appearing to be negative, but isn't technology one of the main contributors to the mess we're in?

solardev 4y ago
felixmeziere 4y ago
Absolutely agree, I didn’t want people to fixate on this fact so I preferred focusing on the positive and not mention it, but technology alone without deciding collectively how to repurpose it (this is a huge philosophical/cultural change where we need to decide together that black Friday and going to space for fun are lame, for example) is not going to be the solution. As you said so far we have observed it has only made the problem worse, year after year after year! And with the little margin we have left, it’s irrational to take the bet it’ll change by itself and just “improving”.

eej71 4y ago

I think one of the challenges that the movement faces is that since the 1960's, there have been many disaster claims - sometimes bordering on the fantastical - and they simply don't come to pass. Not sure why this go-around should be given more credibility.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
you know how in the boy who cried wolf, there is a wolf.
- pc86 4y ago
  If that's your takeaway I don't think you're getting from the story what you're supposed to.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    I mean if we're going for snarky takedowns how about "if you identify most strongly with the attention-seeking liar in the story I don't think I need your advice." But more seriously you can take more than one lesson from a tale. "A threat may be real even if the one relaying it lacks credibility" is not a neat or satisfying morality lesson to feed to children, but it remains true in my experience.
Sharlin 4y ago
For the past 20 to 30 years, the climate science community has been consistently nothing but EXTREMELY conservative in all their predictions in order to not being labeled as alarmist. Newsflash: they were STILL labeled alarmist AND also ignored because whatever happens in 50 years is Someone Else's Problem, can't be bothered to think beyond the next quartal or election cycle. Look! A shiny new thing! Consume! Consume! Now it's becoming clear that almost everything is happening way faster than the conservative models estimated. Humanity just. can't. win. against itself.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > conservative in all their predictions in order to not being labeled as alarmist. Newsflash: they were STILL labeled alarmist It doesn't matter how reasonable you try to sound, some people will still hate what you stand for. They don't require logic to hate you, and they don't require the claims against you to be true. And if you compromise your principles to appeal to these people, you will loose support from both sides. So you might as well stick to your guns and put these people on blast.

deepdriver 4y ago

De-growth means lowering humanity's total energy output. Lowering our total energy output means lowering humanity's average life expectancy, quality of life, and the size of our overall economic pie. These are all negative side-effects with comparable potential for societal destabilization as the effects of rising sea levels or increasing global temperatures. There are solutions to climate change that avoid de-growth and its many negative consequences, such as increasing our investment in nuclear energy. Some states already see things this way, such as China, where the government has announced plans to build 150 new reactors by 2050: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-climate-goals-hinge-on-440-billion-nuclear-power-plan-to-rival-u-s https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-cli...

badtension 4y ago
Your reasoning is flawed, technically if we make things last longer, be repairable, skip vacations on the other side of the planet and stop buying so much cheap plastic crap we would most definitely "degrow" but the quality of life would at least remain unchanged. Capitalism is a beast that needs constant feeding, it doesn't do much good in many cases, it's just growth for the sake of it.
- bwestergard 4y ago
  Kate Soper makes the case that quality of life would improve significantly if we took these steps. The carbon-intensive "good life" leaves us time poor and stressed.
- felixmeziere 4y ago
  Preach
- cortesoft 4y ago
  You can argue how much a change in quality of life it is, but not being able to travel or buy cheap plastic things is certainly a reduction in quality of life.
  - 4y ago

nradov 4y ago

You aren't going to get anyone to embrace de-growth by telling stories. Instead, find ways that technology can enable continued growth while simultaneously decreasing environmental impact. If you force people to pick between global warming versus a major step down in living standards, a lot of them are just going to say screw it and pick global warming.

felixmeziere 4y ago
Everyone tells themselves stories. Like « what’s cool in life is to try and be a billionaire so I can get a private jet and everybody treat me like a king », or, at the level of a country « we should build entire new cities and airports and stimulate growth to increase GDP which is the main metric measuring our success » or, if you are an economist: “what nature has concentrated for us for free for millions of years, like oil, clean air, water, sand for construction etc, is free”. I’m not talking about telling stories to people but about changing theses stories they already tell themselves that have been implanted into them by a system