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The high-stakes race to engineer new psychedelic drugs
- labrador 4y agoIt's sad that the only way to legalize is to force people to see a qualified therapist and take patented psychedelics in order to benefit from the experience, but that's what the normies want. I've taken them with a therapist and it was meh because the doctor/patient relationship became weird under the influence. On the other hand I've had peak experiences by myself alone in a redwood forest on a fresh clear morning.
- game-of-throws 4y agoIs it really what "normies" want? Or is it just what drug companies/lobbyists want?
- labrador 4y agoIn America we live in a democracy (last I checked) so it's the mainstream public who decides in the end. The people in various western states were the first to decide that marijuana should be legal. So by normies I mean mainstream voters who worry about their children having uncontrolled access to psychedelics. Normies believe rules are made to be followed and laws are there for a reason.
- TylerE 4y agoLegalization would decrease underage availability, if anything. To quote an older friend who grew up in a dry county in Alabama: “The bootleggers didn’t care how old you were which was a good thing because I liked to drink and when I was 16 I looked 13”
- NickC25 4y agoProbably a mix of both. People who have some experience with drugs might want the benefit of the trip, but people who are a little more hesitant of the idea of mind-altering substances that last 8+ hours, such as LSD, might be more comfortable with some sort of watered-down experience backed by a major pharma brand and delivered by a licensed therapist. Of course, drug companies and lobbyists also dream of such outcomes.
- criddell 4y agoIs an inexpensive drug that can "cure" PTSD after a very small number of doses a dream or nightmare for drug companies and lobbyists?
- vorpalhex 4y agoSomeone does lsd and shoots up a gas station. Was it the lsd or were they just already nutters? Nobody knows. Telling people to take strong drugs that are purity tested and in a supervised clinical setting is sensible, not some conspiracy.
- NickC25 4y agoA nightmare - as said companies will have a fixed amount of revenue per patient, and it won't be recurring. Wall Street doesn't like companies that go against the ingrained model of "extremely expensive long term care as a service".
- colinsane 4y agowhat of the insurance companies though? if they no longer have to pay for recurring treatments, then more of the customer’s monthly premium can go to the shareholder. Wall Street gets their recurring revenue one way or another.
- criddell 4y agoInsurance is regulated. Typically they can only hold on to about 20% of the premium. If they collect too much money, you will get a rebate check mailed to you.
- criddell 4y agoI think at least some normies want that. I'm pretty much as normie as it gets and I've been watching Michael Pollan's series on Netflix How to Change Your Mind. One day I might want to try LSD, psilocybin, or MDMA (those are the episodes I've watched) but probably wouldn't until I could buy from an FDA regulated company. I don't trust dark web sources or the neighborhood guy who knows a guy.
- km3r 4y agoYou can and should test any substance you acquire from an unregulated source.
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- engineer_22 4y agoReach out to a friend and explain your situation, I'm sure you can find what you're looking for. These substances are ubiquitous. You might benefit from having a friend around while you're tripping, anyway.
- gjs278 4y ago
- tayo42 4y agoYou can test what you buy with multiple reagent tests to make sure what you have is what you think it is. You can even send to labs if your extra paranoid. Also the dw runs on reviews. Some one selling something fake won't last long. Some have reputations from years of selling.
- cflewis 4y agoAs a normie for whom ketamine treatment was a life changer, I can attest I would never ever have taken it without specialist supervision. And by specialist, I mean someone qualified, not some dude who has done plenty and has a K dealer. I would hazard there’s a large contingent of normies for whom the difference between supervised medical treatments that happen to be psychedelics and just the act of taking psychedelics is too large a leap. I personally hate the experience. The hate is part of the goal of being able to stop being in control all the time, but it doesn’t mean I like it. I also hate the hangover feeling afterwards, but the neuroplasticy benefits have been profound and so I keep doing the treatment. TL;DR benefits are there, normies should be allowed them too, non-normies I assume can still do black market work.
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- labrador 4y agoI'm excited by what you describe and glad for it, but my sadness is that I could still be arrested by possessing mushrooms I picked for myself in a forest. I've been confronted by the authorities over this issue and believe me it is not a pleasant or healing experience.
- rjbwork 4y ago>non-normies I assume can still do black market work. Why do you want non-normies to have gun toting government thugs put them in a concrete box for 20 years because they don't want to get a permission slip to do the same thing you did?
- standardUser 4y agoMushrooms are being lightly legalized in some cities and states. And while a lot of that is under the umbrella of mental health or spirituality, it is not being confined to medical environments. The normies appear to be losing that particular battle. And I think they're set to lose a lot more.
- labrador 4y agoThere are some spots in American where that is very true, such as my hometown of Santa Cruz That said, I am not opposed to a therapeutic setting if that's what people who never tried them feel comfortable with Leading the psychedelic renaissance: https://maps.org/ https://maps.org/
- heap_perms 4y agoI think utopia would be to have both. That would mean legalization, and free distribution, but you can still take it in a therapy setting if you want to.
- Gatsky 4y agoThese drugs clearly have risks. I know a case who took LSD and amputated his genitals during the trip (heard this first hand from the urologist who reattached said genitals). Sure, many or even most people will be fine, but some clearly won’t. Sure, he has a mental illness and took too much and was alone, but that’s exactly the issue. Do you have any suggestions how to make these drugs broadly safe without giving in to the supposedly unreasonable demands of the ‘normies’?
- labrador 4y agoFrom a reply I made later to a self-professed normie: I'm excited by what you describe [successful therapy] and glad for it, but my sadness is that I could still be arrested by possessing mushrooms I picked for myself in a forest. I've been confronted by the authorities over this issue and believe me it is not a pleasant or healing experience. A list off the top of my head mentally ill people should avoid: hand guns, rifles, poison, rope strong enough to hang oneself with, enough narcotics to go to sleep forever, dynamite, poison gas, large quantities of alcohol, religious cults, LSD...
- Gatsky 4y agoMaybe I have a different perspective working in healthcare. People with mental illness tend to self-medicate with whatever is available, so you can’t lump dynamite and rope together with psychoactive drugs as the degree of actual harm is a different order of magnitude. As always, with any libertarian approach to regulation, it’s vulnerable people who suffer (mentally ill, poor, children) for the ideals of others. I find this is rarely a good deal in the final analysis.
- amanaplanacanal 4y agoThe alternative is throwing people in prison. Which seems to me to be a much worse deal.
- Gatsky 4y agoThis is one alternative the USA has chosen, but obviously not the only one.
- galaxyLogic 4y ago> doctor/patient relationship became weird under the influence That reminds me of a joke, "I said to the doctor, doctor, you got be patient with me"
- phkahler 4y ago>> As psychedelic therapies for mental health go mainstream, companies are recruiting chemists to create patentable versions of hallucinogens. Same old same old. Let's tweak this molecule to make it "novel" while retaining it's cool properties. Then we can patent it and own the market. In this case they also get the advantage that the existing molecule is illegal.
- labrador 4y agoI'm not above making money off it if I can despite the Nurse Ratched vibe: https://www.psychedelicfinance.com/ https://www.psychedelicfinance.com/
- jseliger 4y agoThis may be somewhat difficult, however, given the prior art of Shulgin and others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL. TIHKAL and PIHKAL cover a lot of ground.
- CameronNemo 4y agoThe problem is not that we lack patent unencumbered medicine, the problem is that only patent encumbered medicine has the incentives behind it to fund studies into its safety, and the rest of the FDA process.
- xyzwave 4y agoMay be different for a drug company, but I believe a lot of those molecules would still be illegal under the Federal Analogue Act [0]. 0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act
- notjulianjaynes 4y agoI can't help but notice that this is basically how we got oxycodone, and even stronger opioids such as fentanyl. Would the opiod crisis have been so extreme if the hardest stuff you could get was raw opium? Not that opium's not a hell of a drug itself, but as I understand it, the risks of serious health issues like fatal overdose are not as high compared to synthetic opiates. Jeet Thayil's semi-autobiographical novel Narcopolis touches on this. Set in Bombay, the opium-addicted characters run into problems when dealers start switch from selling opium to heroin. I'm not sure how this might play out for psychedelics, which are generally not addictive, but the incentives are similar. I don't necessarily think this is a bad idea, in fact I'm excited to see where those incentives lead things. Will researchers invent a hangover free ecstasy? Acid you can drive to work on? Lovely.
- NickC25 4y agoThere was an NYT article not too long ago whose entire point is that "true" psychedelic drugs are too dangerous to go mainstream, but isolated chemical compounds that provide some of the chemical effects of LSD / Mushrooms / Ketamine without the "trip" were a much better way to go. The reasoning was that they could engineer a way to chemically induce neuroplastic change in the brain without the liability of visual or auditory hallucinations. Talk about missing the forest from the trees. The whole transformative experience is the "trip" itself. Dosing myself in a therapist's office sounds terrifying. The best experience I've ever had was taking a hit of LSD in my living room and spending the day with a pen and paper, writing down thoughts as they came to me.
- mkoryak 4y agosounds like you had a good trip. If you had a bad trip, you might feel differently about it.
- sharklazer 4y agoI’ve had several bad trips in my life. I think they are the most impactful and clarifying. Uncomfortable for sure. Good trips let me know I’m comfortable with myself. Bad trips usually lead to uncovering or bringing to the front things that need to be addressed in my life.
- golergka 4y agoI've had many bad trips throughout my life, and they have always been the most educational. Learning about your shortcomings and confronting your demons and traumas isn't supposed to be a pleasant experience.
- sianemo 4y agoI have had good trips and bad trips on a variety of highly psychedelic substances, and I've had a lot of those trips. Trying to engineer the trip out of the drug to get a desired psychoactive result free from pesky side effects like not being as grounded to reality for a while is absolutely missing the forest for the trees. Not to say that it can't produce some benefit but it's leaving a lot of unexplored potential on the table, largely in deference to failed puritanical ideals about recreational drug use.
- kodah 4y agoI recently did LSD. It wasn't my first encounter with psychedelics but none have done what LSD did. I have a good bit of trauma that I'd attempted to work through throughout my life. The thing is, many of those things are settled. I cannot change them, I've course corrected my life away from my actions being influenced by these things, and on the exterior I think most people would find me well adapted. I was pretty miserable on the inside though; those traumas hue the depths of your soul in ways that intentional and advertent action cannot rectify, only mask. LSD gave me the power to set those things to sea and give them the burial they needed. Not all of them are gone, but I'm in a much better place because of it. There is nothing different that I need, just make it so I don't have to order it on the dark web. Edit: Happy to answer questions about my experiences. Can also be reached on Libera if public questions are not what you want.
- standardUser 4y agoI think most of us are desperate to see ourselves from a different perspective (whether we realize it or not), but that's really hard to do when success in our day-to-day lives depends on us having a stable vision of ourselves and our place in the world. I think a lot of experiences, including a lot of drugs, can help either provide a temporary new perspective, or even shift our everyday view of ourselves and our lives more permanently. LSD seems to be one of the most effective.
- mysore 4y agomdma is generally even more powerful for healing trauma. Or rather MDMA can accelerate healing by released "stored unprocessed memories" LSD can help you by showing you a possibility of whats possible by dissolving the prision of identity and seeing the world from a non-local perspective.
- gavinray 4y agoI think they're very different and both unique. MDMA with the right group of people a few times completely changed me for the better. Lot of anger and resentment out the window. I've had positive experiences with LSD, psilocybin, DMT, and a dozen other things with alphabet -soup names but I also have PTSD and HPPD from them. On MDMA the worst experience you can have is feeling sad, which is nigh impossible. I'm still pro-psychedelics but it's important to recognize how powerful they are, and that a bent reality isn't always a pleasant place.
- huetius 4y agoWith the collapse of the SSRI hypothesis, I feel like there was a missed opportunity to interrogate what it is about the affluent, technological society that makes such a staggering number of people so depressed. It seems that we will instead (characteristically) plow forward with even more powerful drugs.
- anigbrowl 4y agoJust because it hit the news last week doesn't mean the window has closed. You jsut have to be willing to get in arguments/break up with people who dislike hearing their assumptions questioned.
- jeffreyrogers 4y agoI don't think that the collapse of the serotonin hypothesis means that SSRI's don't work, just that they don't work via increasing serotonin levels.
- astrange 4y agoNothing new has happened with SSRIs. Everyone always knew perfectly well they don't work by "raising serotonin levels", but they do still seem to work.
- hiram112 4y agoYeah, I saw a lot of bad takes on Twitter related to the "debunking of the serotonin myth" with the insinuation that they'd finally proven that serotonin itself has absolutely no involvement in depression or anxiety, and it was all just a big hoax perpetrated by Big Pharma. And then you read an article like this: > The receptor has proven crucial to understanding the neuropharmacology of the psychedelic experience induced by classical hallucinogens. LSD, mescaline, psilocybin—they all interact with 5-HT2A. (In certain circles, the phrase “5-HT2A agonist” has supplanted “psychedelic”... 5-HT2A receptors, of course, bind to serotonin (or at least that's our primitive theory of what's going on). We've known for 70 years now that monoamines like dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, etc. greatly influence mood. But our model of the brain is primitive, though that doesn't mean our current theories regarding these neurotransmitters like serotonin aren't on the right track.
- mathgladiator 4y agoDo we really need new ones? Maybe, we just need to decriminalize nature and let a shamanic class arise to guide us on a spiritual journey of self-awareness.
- engineer_22 4y agoWhat could possibly go wrong?
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- stocknoob 4y agoWhat could possibly go wrong with a society full of people living unexamined lives?
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- vorpalhex 4y agoMostly they end up kind of boring or being jerks. That is a very well known outcome.
- 2-718-281-828 4y agoand none of that should be criminalised
- tastyfreeze 4y agoShamanic rituals have been the cornerstone of many of the great civilizations of the past. Why are substances that induce introspection and a sense of belonging to something greater than yourself banned?
- vorpalhex 4y ago
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- BLO716 4y agoHere's a legit question - what is single driving factor for increases in substance abuse? Asking for a friend.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoFor many people it is the same as it ever was, an escape from a bleak and miserable reality.
- akimball 4y agoDysphoria
- scythe 4y agoIn adolescents, it's exposure to violence and/or family members' drug abuse. The latter is very unsurprising. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2000-13544-003 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2000-13544-003 >Major findings were (a) adolescents who had been physically assaulted, who had been sexually assaulted, who had witnessed violence, or who had family members with alcohol or drug use problems had increased risk for current substance abuse/dependence; (b) posttraumatic stress disorder independently increased risk of marijuana and hard drug abuse/dependence; and (c) when effects of other variables were controlled, African Americans, but not Hispanics or Native Americans, were at approximately 1/3 the risk of substance abuse/dependence as Caucasians. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)
- mateja 4y agoIt's trauma. See Gabor Mate for more about the trauma-addiction connection. https://thewisdomoftrauma.com/ https://thewisdomoftrauma.com/
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago"High" stakes? Someone at Wired likes a good pun...
- anglojlo 4y agoJust legalize the ones we got already.
- throw819352119 4y agoI have a friend who has severe depression, including self harm and thoughts of suicide. So far guided meditation sessions and antidepressants have had little effect. I have read that some illicit drugs can be effective in treating depression, even after just one or two uses. Can anyone suggest what might be the best option out of ketamine, shrooms, LSD or MDMA?
- scythe 4y agoSpeaking very broadly, ketamine has shown positive effects on depression, MDMA on PTSD, and psychedelics on grief and to some extent anxiety. So it really depends on what your friend is dealing with in their personal life.
- pcthrowaway 4y agoBy "psychedelics" do you mean psilocybin? As Ketamine and MDMA are also both psychedelic
- scythe 4y agoI mean "classical" psychedelics whose activity is primarily mediated through activation of the 5-ht2a receptor.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoIf their depression stems from isolation and the inability to relate to, trust, or connect with others then I'd recommend MDMA.
- cannaceo 4y agoAyahuasca, then MDMA.
- temp0826 4y agoWould not recommend ayahuasca to someone with suicidal thoughts or a history of self-harm. Especially if they have not done any prior work/therapy as to the cause. (Disclaimer, not a doctor or any kind of therapist, but have drank it myself 150+ times and worked at an ayahuasca retreat where I've seen this situation). Ketamine seems to be fast-acting for depression. A proper MDMA session with a therapist and follow up support is looking like a great way to work on things like this. (This is not advice: please don't take advice concerning illegal drugs from random people on the internet)
- chiefalchemist 4y agoSad really. As this headline might as well be: "Big Pharma: Patents Equal Profits." There are plenty of cultures and associated history to support using what we already have available. The only reason to invent anything new would be to control access and make a buck. We're going through that with the Covid vaccine. What does it take for us to learn from our mistakes? https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/07/13/1111137152/these-brazilian-besties-are-inventing-an-mrna-vaccine-as-a-gift-to-the-world https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/07/13/1111137...
- 8bitsrule 4y ago'Engineered' experiences, huh? To what end? At least the article 'tuned in' to Shulgin. More on Sasha and Ann's prolonged studies, along with a big bibliography, here (Web 1) [https://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/shulgin_alexander/shulgin_alexander.shtml https://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/shulgin_alexander/...]
- patientplatypus 4y ago
- coding123 4y agoIt seems like we should find ways to excite people about life and discovery rather than drum about the worker bee life. That's why people want drugs so much. Go build something interesting - physical, not on the computer, stop doing drugs.
- denton-scratch 4y ago> The line tops out at a dose of 10 mg/kg, or “mig per kig,” as chemists pronounce it. So that would make the sweet-spot dose for someone my weight about 800mg, which doesn't sound very 'potent' to me. I haven't read PIHKAL, perhaps that dosage is in line with the kind of substances Shulgin tested.