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A billion-dollar industry helping students at Australian universities cheat

• paulpauper 4y ago
  It goes to show how this is a problem that affects everywhere. Higher stakes education means more cheating. I think it also sheds light on the cynical reality that college is just a very expensive ticket to the middle class and learning will always be secondary to that.
  • mlindner 4y ago
    No this just sounds like an Australian problem. Cheating isn't the problem. Not expelling people is the problem.
    • Glawen 4y ago
      Is it better in other country who rely on the money brought by international students?
• josephcsible 4y ago
  I see two main points as to what Chegg is doing wrong: 1. Their "homework help" service is more of a "do my homework for me" service 2. They intentionally don't require any verification that questions submitted are actually from homework rather than from an exam
  • Glawen 4y ago
    With COVID I think we have reached a new level of cheating, I feel that students do not feel anymore ashamed to do it because that is what they did during lockdown. I am amazed at all the possibilities of cheating which were technically impossible when I studied. Look at it now, students can have answers on chegg. They can translate using DeepL. They can find teachers explaining any topic they like on YouTube. Seriously there is no excuse to fail anything now. University need to do something about it real quick, otherwise their diplomas will not be worth anything
    • throwawaysleep 4y ago
      I attended a well known university and I graduated before COVID. Cheating in next to universal. You didn't just cheat with people you knew. You could go ask any member of the year above for assignment solutions and quiz/test answer keys. You could ask any member of the prior section for what was on the quiz. Student union ran a solutions bank for past tests. And yeah, plenty of us had Chegg. Why do we do this? Very few of us went to university to learn. We wanted an access pass to the upper middle class. Same thing with the students I mentor for remote interviews. I offer to help them cheat on them by sitting on a second webcam and feeding them the answers. Only one has turned me down, and not for moral reasons, but because they fear getting caught. If you offered to just give everyone an A for a given course, maybe 10% of students would attend. I am not sure that businesses care all that much, because the same skills work in companies too and it is considered legitimate outside of the academic world to take the work of others. In school, using a library is cheating. At work, it is good work.
      • ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        I went to university long before covid, and all the old exams + usually the (professors) solutions were available online, mostly on professors own websites, so the students would know what types of assignments were on exams and could prepare properly (there was still a very wide variety). Exams were done in classrooms, with multiple people (usually TAs) watching, pen, paper, usually notes/book or even old exams were allowed (or at minimum 1 sheet of whatever you wanted on). Yeah sure, some minimal cheating was still possible, but not a lot.
      • jiggawatts 4y ago
        > In school, using a library is cheating. No, that’s learning. Similarly here someone thought that watching YouTube videos of lectures is cheating! The fact that you can’t seem to tell what is cheating and what is education is… very telling.
        • nfw2 4y ago
          I think they might have meant "using a library" in the context of computer classes, like sorting a list using a library
  • brnaftr361 4y ago
    Is it chegg or is it the institutions? I'd posit it's the latter; huge sums of money are at-risk for a fail grade not to mention time invested. People want to get on with their lives. Meanwhile institutions act as gatekeepers while jointly setting arbitrary standards and acting with the pretense that they're institutions of higher learning which simply isn't the case: they produce licensure for occupations. All of that pretense, the arbitrary expectations set makes it far more worthwhile to cheat. Why type up a paper on Shakespeare in a class deemed mandatory that a student has zero interest in or application for? And that can be stated about so many facets of college, the textbooks I've been expected to buy are formatted like a dumpster fire. The tuition I'm paying for what is essentially proctoring burns my ass. The fact I can get superior products across the board and actually have a gamut of options in instruction, methods, curriculum and resources - at significantly lower cost makes it a whole lot more justifiable both at the ethical and at the rational level to "cheat", I find it strange that someone might be upset that someone is swindling the swindler. Having said that, I'd propose a bifurcation: actual higher learning institutions and vocational institutions. This weird amalgam that has developed, by my reckoning at least, results in the worst of both worlds.
    • josephcsible 4y ago
      Justifying cheating because of those points about institutions feels like justifying stealing because of high inflation.
      • brnaftr361 4y ago
        That does not follow in the least. Think of it this way: If the institution implies that it is the arbiter of knowledge, or if society promotes it to be as such, and those who are empowered to act with the authority of such institutions lack the scruples to remedy the myriad issues, this is just the most seamless means to escape it.
• bpodgursky 4y ago
  My wife stopped teaching remote CS classes mostly because the cheating was so completely out-of-hand that grading was pointless and miserable. Doesn't matter how creative or new or engaging the homework assignments were. Over half the class pays someone, shares work, or finds someone to do it for them.
  • throwawaysleep 4y ago
    Because can you honestly say that you paid $80K to learn? That was your primary goal of spending all that money? It certainly was not mine. Learning wasn't in my top 5 reasons to attend university.
    • Glawen 4y ago
      You have a point indeed. You don't pay that much money to fail. That puts countries with free university in another perspective
      • thegginthesky 4y ago
        I graduated in a country with a free university, and the students still cheated, but most failed. The teachers were more strict with much more challenging assignments and tests, plus a lot of teachers would allow open books, but the difficulty of the exams was out of this world. Half the class would fail, and because of the difficulty, chances are, If you cheated, it was also wrong. If the teacher caught you cheating, it was a big fat zero right away, and there would be a board of teachers to protect the decision. And the University is free,even to re-enroll, you only need to pass the entrance exam, which was super easy for any course except for the doctor, law, or engineering. (CS is super easy to enter because they have more spots than students interested in it) So I don't know; people will cheat rather than put in the hard work and learn.
        • Glawen 4y ago
          I agree people will always cheat, but the difference is that the university is not afraid to grade accordingly, which is not the case in paid university (maybe the top one would something about it, I don't know)
• Rodeoclash 4y ago
  The Universities in Australia make so much money from international students that they're also disincentived to prevent cheating. Theirs been many anecdotes posted to the Australian subreddit of professors discovering cheating students and being strongly discouraged by the faculty to punish them. Ultimately the universities are exchanging reputation for near term profits. When I hire in Melbourne for graduate software engineers the university they trained at is not a signal to me at all (despite all the advertising for say Melbourne University promoting how employees regard their distinguished degrees) and I rely purely on technical ability.
  • Thorentis 4y ago
    Completely agree with both paragraphs. And unfortunately, in my experience as both a university tutor back in the day, and now as a hiring manager for some candidates - international students, even those who studied at local universities - are by far the least qualified in all areas. The international student game is a billion dollar industry that lines the pockets of university staff, allows constant round-the-year renovations of university facilities, and allows the universities to present themselves as "diverse and inclusive" learning environments. The problem will never be solved as long as money is involved.
    • geraldwhen 4y ago
      I’ve interviewed so many masters CS degree holders from prestigious schools. 0 of them, 0, could declare variables and get through hello world.
      • wincy 4y ago
        Ten years ago it felt like a huge gamble that I dropped out of the computer science program at college and just started writing code. But based on all I’ve heard, and based on my career experience, as long as I can write code halfway competently and communicate well with others, it sounds like I’m going to have a job. It really helps alleviate hints of imposter syndrome, honestly.
• ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  So... bring back the "old school" exams, pens, papers, large classroom, one professor, 2, 3 TAs walking around, no phones or computers, only paper and pen, and since it's university level, memorizing stuff is stupid, so either let them have books/notes or atleast a piece of paper (or more) with formulas or whatever is needed (because let's be fair, "cheat sheets" will always be a posibility, and even the best doctors and engineers google stuff all the time). Some minimal cheating is still possible, but otherwise, it's a lot better than the current online situation.
  • josephcsible 4y ago
    It's fine to have exams on computers, as long as they're university-owned computers in a lab and not, say, the students' personal laptops at home.
    • 867-5309 4y ago
      which member of the covid-stricken workforce is going to provide, administer and police that? and how well? students would just remotely connect to their laptops at home
      • josephcsible 4y ago
        > students would just remotely connect to their laptops at home The point of requiring university-owned lab computers is that it'd be feasible to lock them down to prevent this sort of thing.
        • 867-5309 4y ago
          as above
  • Thorentis 4y ago
    Unfortunately COVID stopped this for a while, but agree this is the only way to stop this kind of behavior.
  • 4y ago
• SnowHill9902 4y ago
  Good universities still take pen-and-paper exams even for physics, programming, math. No electronics allowed. 3 hours. No multiple choice.
  • tennisflyi 4y ago
    > No multiple choice. Yup. That test recognition and maybe recall - never really a fan.
• slavboj 4y ago
  Astonishingly, nothing about the demographics of the students involved, just a vague implication towards "international students". It's not exactly a secret who is taking advantage of Australia's efforts to diversify from primary production to exporting education as well, but you would have no idea from reading the article.
  • axpy906 4y ago
    What country would have students that think it’s okay to cheat?
    • slavboj 4y ago
      I have no idea whether they think it's "okay", but Chinese students are vastly overrepresented.
• Archelaos 4y ago
  Perhaps it is time for more radical thoughts: Should we not abolish university exams altogether? Instead the receiving institutions (companies, administrations, organisations, etc.) should undertake them -- or outsource them to a 3rd party. There are some areas, where this is already the case, at least partly, such as TOEFL tests for English as a foreign language.
• redact207 4y ago
  I've been hiring SEs here in Australia for a few years, and finding decent graduates is hard. Covid made this worse by pushing more people through bootcamps who did it for the tech salary rather than genuine interest, which just added to the noise. The thing is that good developers could be anywhere. I've had great hires come through good unis with fantastic grades, as well as some who transitioned from a different industry and did a bootcamp. Unis for a lot of industries are losing their relevance. Here in Australia they'll continue to be subsidised by internationals who get favourable visa conditions upon graduation that can be worked into a family immigration plan, but for the rest of us it's just a lot of unnecessary debt.
  • finikytou 4y ago
    what is the pay you offering? in most markets it is the number one problem of people finding it hard to hire. they pay bad.
    • redact207 4y ago
      We don't find it hard to hire in the sense that our offers are always accepted. I was moreso trying to indicate the difficulty of finding competent developers in a sea of candidates who are disinterested and lack the technical aptitude.
      • finikytou 4y ago
        I am totally disinterested at solving leetcode problems to get a job. If I cant solve a leetcode hard in the 15minutes given in an interview I am deemed as not competent by FAANG. Why couldn't we show our own projects and talk over the complexity behind it and what we needed to solve rather than monkey solving leetcode? I can understand why many people are disinterested.
        • redact207 4y ago
          We don't do leet code or coding tests. We do talk about projects they've worked on in the past - either academic, professional or personal - whichever they're most across. Again, what I'm saying is despite all this most candidates still don't have anything they can talk about because they're disinterested in IT and doing it for a tech salary. You don't sound like you fit that profile, but most candidates that we receive wouldn't be found on HN anyway.
• nfw2 4y ago
  "Their profits come from helping students to cheat and I would be amazed if they don't know this." I worked briefly at Chegg and the only viewpoint I heard expressed, from either management or regular employees, was that the company was enhancing education, not hurting it. If anyone acknowledged that students were using the platform to cheat, the fact was framed as an unfortunate edge case, not the norm. It definitely felt to me like a bit of a "drink-the-koolaid" company culture.
• doctor_eval 4y ago
  According to DFAT, education is Australia's biggest services export category - ahead of tourism¹, and contributing more than $37B to the Australian economy² (2019). Although tertiary education here is not free to residents, domestic students receive significant subsidies relative to international students. A lot of my friends here in Australia are uncomfortable with the potential effects of this on domestic education outcomes, and certainly allowing certain students to cheat is going to reduce the value of a degree to those who are genuinely trying to bootstrap their career. ¹ https://www.dfat.gov.au/about-us/publications/trade-investment/business-envoy/Pages/march-2020/new-opportunities-australian-education-services-exports-under-ia-cepa-simon-lacey-senior-lecturer-institute-international-trade-university-adelaide https://www.dfat.gov.au/about-us/publications/trade-investme... ² https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/11/australias-37-6b-international-student-export-con/ https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/11/australias-37-6b-in...
• euos 4y ago
  I worked for a company when I was in college (Ukraine) that would send me to pass in-person exams instead of other students. Money was good and I needed them. There was also a risk of being caught (though I did not really risk anything, just my employer would have to bribe the professor or someone higher up) Since then I strongly believe tests in the college are pointless. Doctors and such should have a strict licensing exam outside.
  • musicale 4y ago
    > send me to pass in-person exams instead of other students Did they require a thumbprint on the exam? Did you write all of the written assignments as well so that your handwriting would match? More seriously, it seems like it would be hard to pull off in a small course where the instructors might recognize the students.
    • euos 4y ago
      1. I was in the same college so I had a “test book” cover with my photo. For some reasons n they put the photo on the cover and the name and the rest on the book pages 2. No one remembers students’ handwriting. 3. In our system professors only read lectures before large groups of students. They have “docents” (not sure what’s English word for that) who do smaller practical classes professors were taking the exams. Also, some of them passingly saw my face in the hall. Once or twice I got by mistake to my former professors - the company had to fix the issue (with money)
• alexashka 4y ago
  Good. Paperclip maximizer is working as intended.
• nonrandomstring 4y ago
  What has happened to our universities is a tragedy beyond words.
  • Glawen 4y ago
    The issue come from tution fees. If you look at student debt it also creates other issues in society. Instead of erasing the debt, why not make university affordable? That would remove the motivation to pass cheating students
• __d 4y ago
  The point of an undergraduate university degree is to represent to others that the holder has some level of knowledge and skill in a particular subject. The value to the student is as a key to further opportunities: academic, social, commercial. The value to the institution is almost entirely financial. My proposal is that the degree-granting institutions be separated from educational institutions. To get a degree, you submit a request for examination. That will be an intensive two or three week long process of written, practical, and interview assessments conducted by a team of people who attempt to satisfy themselves that you meet the requirements of the degree. The cost (and difficulty) will vary, depending on the institution you select. You pay for the assessment, regardless of the result. The institution's motivation is to ensure that its graduates actually meet the degree criteria. If it issues degrees for sub-par applicants, its degrees become worth less (and ultimately, worthless), and fewer people will bother to acquire one. Educational institutions can then be separate. They can be exam-prep, cramming specialists with experience in getting students past a particular degree-granting institution's assessment, or they can be a genuine, broad-based, learning facility that students can attend to learn whatever they want, for however long they want, subject to continuing to pay for that tuition. If you want to teach yourself off YouTube, go ahead, and then test for the degree. If you want to be a well-rounded, educated person, maybe spend some time at a learning facility.
  • rhco 4y ago
    I think this idea has some serious merit, but I do wonder what the roll-out would look like - how could it be implemented practically, considering the reputation-base value of degrees. For example, the value of a degree from MIT is not just the degree itself, but also quality and depth of the course work. We assume that if a student passed with A+ grades, they have a solid understanding. But we also know that, i.e., MIT teaches CS in a way that's very applicable to the CS industry, including many bits of non-standard knowledge that are not tested in the exam. Imagine that MIT decides to become a degree-granting institution, and I obtain an "MIT CS Degree". How would an employer know whether I learned at a top-quality education provider and gained deep knowledge that covers more than the exam ever could -- or if I self-taught and scraped through the exam with the bare minimum knowledge. I guess MIT could structure their exams so that they cover the subject deeply, but to cover 2 years worth of intense learning, surely they would need a very long (maybe impractically long) exam period? Maybe I'm over-thinking this - I guess an MIT student would list on their CV "2 years studying at MIT". Anyway, I think this is a fantastic idea and I'm very interested to see what other HN users think!
• PebblesHD 4y ago
  This anecdote relies on the knowledge that many Australian universities, particularly for technical subjects, rely on a lot of group work for assignments, which the conspiracist in me thinks is to help mask the prevalence of plagiarism. Now, the anecdote: When I was in university one of our projects was to submit a functional web application handling sales and loans. It was a group assignment with 3 other students, and I asked everyone to contribute on git, not for any technical reasons but because I wanted an audit trail. One of the group members, a ‘full fee’ student, submitted something so obviously copied, including a bunch of comments in another language, and that looked nothing like our UI, that I googled a snippet and got back almost the entire thing. I immediately sent the commit link and link to where it came from to both the class tutor and the lecturer because I’m not risking this having my name on it, and the response was nonexistent. The student still passed the class. That’s the state of Australian universities as far as I’m concerned, having lived it for 6 years and never seen any other action taken against any instance of it.