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I'll guess that the biological roots are the same as for any learned avoidance of painful stimuli. When people make social contact and repeatedly and predictabl

I'll guess that the biological roots are the same as for any learned avoidance of painful stimuli. When people make social contact and repeatedly and predictably find that it is negative, they learn to withdraw from it. They try withdrawal once, it relieves some of the pain, and it does so over and over. It's the same as a dog who avoids the kid who kicks it. I'd bet that the dog would make a good animal model to investigate the biology ... but I'm not sure it's worth learning at that price. You might be able to "cure" the dog of withdrawal by changing its chemistry such that it no longer avoids the abusive child. But if the child is still out there that isn't necessarily a favor to the dog.

maltyr 4y ago
This is pretty much my take on it as well. Once you hit adulthood, most able-bodied, able-minded people are expected to be "contributing members of society". But that definition is pretty nebulous - it doesn't have to be society's definition - whatever you set to be your own expectations for success. If you repeatedly fail to meet those standards you set for yourself, it can cause you to turn this feeling of pain and frustration from failure inwards, towards yourself. At some point, you simply withdraw entirely, because you are afraid of feeling the pain of failure that you trained yourself to associate with attempting to meet your goals. This is often compounded by well-meaning people trying to shame you into doing something: "You can't live like this! You HAVE to get a job!" - sort of "support" from family members or friends. Or, they might throw blame: "Why don't you work harder? Stop wasting your time doing nothing!" I think this may be a significant factor on why this symptom appears much more common in Japan, a mono-cultural society with very high expectations to conform. Also perhaps why it's growing overall, as the general prospects for younger people seem to be worse than the previous generation across most developed countries. However, I don't think you can treat the chemistry to "fix" social withdrawal. I believe it's linked to other mental health issues, like depression, anxiety, and low self-esteem. Treating those issues, primarily through therapy, is required first, before working on fixing social withdrawal, which at that point should be straightforward.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  >I don't think you can treat the chemistry to "fix" social withdrawal Oh, I'll bet you a fat R&D contract and a promised economic boom that you can. And you probably "can", for a given value of ""fix"". It'll just be another neoliberal pressure-washer pointed at the weathered rock face of our collective humanity. See, it's still just fine!
- HPsquared 4y ago
  I think you hit the nail on the head mentioning monoculture. If there's only one way to be successful and accepted, anyone who doesn't fit the mold simply drops out. In a more varied society there are more alternative "acceptable" paths available to those people who didn't fit the mold for the primary path.
- nradov 4y ago
  You're not wrong, but some fraction of the hikikomori could also be treated effectively through tough love. Their behavior is being enabled by parents who allow them to live at home, set low expectations, and fail to enforce consequences. If parents kick them out then they'll be forced to sink or swim. This may seem harsh, but those parents will die eventually and the hikikomori will eventually have to fend for themselves no matter what. Better to learn how to live in society sooner than later.
  - yata69420 4y ago
    > If parents kick them out then they'll be forced to sink or swim. If you've ever lived in or near a US city, the "sink" outcome is actually quite common. > Better to learn how to live in society sooner than later. Your approach converts a family struggle into a community problem. I don't see why society would encourage families that can support hikikomori for some number of years to offload all of them onto society immediately, even if some would successfully "swim".
    - nradov 4y ago
      The community will have to deal with those people eventually. Putting it off just makes things worse. Some of those shut-ins would do well enlisting in the military, if they can pass the medical screening.
Avicebron 4y ago
I believe in Japan's case there were significant economic issues (the removal of the "lifetime salaryman career path where the company spent significant amount of time in investing/promising it's employees a social contract based on financial security) towards the end of the 80s, resulting in severe penalties to the nations youth at the time that initiated a so called "lost generation" who frequently ended up as Hikkimori. e.g. when the rug/promise was pulled out and the only prospects were low paid temp work often with no or little social safety nets, whole swathes of people realized that the social contract they signed up for was gone and it drove a lot of people into seclusion.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Add workweeks so long that you can't see your family if you have one and can't meet a partner if you don't...
  - decafninja 4y ago
    I was under the impression that the lifelong salaryman career was still both available and common - just that many youths see their parents trapped in it and find such a lifestyle extremely undesirable.
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      A few YouTube videos have popped up in my feed suggesting a similar trend in Chinese youth.
      - tacocataco 4y ago
        I was under the impression the Laying Flat movement was more of a protest of how things are.
    - bluefirebrand 4y ago
tootie 4y ago
I'm purely speculating but I think it's also a side effect of the high degree of development in places like Japan and elsewhere in the first world. If you're the child a middle class family it's just so easy to live a subsistence lifestyle without working hard or engaging in your community. This kind of isolation would kill someone in a more primitive society but if you can lock yourself in an apartment with running water and food delivery you can be relatively comfortable forever.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Kind of like how in older societies there have been examples of reclusive people from aristocracy. You don't hear about that in the lower classes, of course, because it's so unsustainable for someone in that position.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    Hermits were aristocratic? I thought they hunted, fished, and generally saw to their own needs, supplemented with occasional (minimal) trading.
    - revolvingocelot 4y ago
      I think grandparent is talking about wealthy aristocrats who decide they don't want to interact with society/anyone. Pre-pizza-delivery, one would have had to be incredibly wealthy to manage to pull this off -- or be a penniless hermit, yeah. The reason I replied, however, was the use of the phrase "hermits were aristocratic?", because it brought to mind the fad of the ornamental hermit, kept as a positional good on estates of the rich. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit
  - arlcode 4y ago
    To be fair we don't hear about the lower classes in general. People who wrote the (history) books didn't bother and therefore historians and archeologist have not a lot to go by. Much of their everyday lives has to be pieced together from scarce evidence. Sociology is only arriving on the scene much later.
iaaan 4y ago
> But if the child is still out there that isn't necessarily a favor to the dog. I think this is the major problem of a lot of modern/contemporary mental healthcare. The "tough love"/rewiring/reframing + medication approach probably does often get the desired result from a 10,000ft view (the patient is "functional" within society and isn't actively trying to harm themselves or others), but it frequently gets administered in the most disgustingly dogmatic, abusive way, which leads to the person in question becoming either emotionally dead, or an anxious, neurotic mess. But hey, at least they show up on time for their cashier job! There are too many people receiving therapy licenses (only referring to the US here as I'm not familiar with the rest of the world) who have zero real understanding of what they're doing to/with their patients beyond reciting the scripts they learned in a three-day CBT or DBT seminar. And on one hand, it's hard to blame the practitioners, because what are they supposed to tell someone who hasn't been able to make rent for three months despite working full-time and is about to get evicted again? Or who is neurodivergent in some way that literally prevents them from engaging in menial labor without wanting to kill themselves? What can they concretely do to help these people other than teach them to convince themselves that everything is fine and they are the problem? The whole system is fucked up and there's not really a clear, simple, realistic solution.
swayvil 4y ago
Those roots could also be called reasonable. Do we cure reasonable?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

maltyr 4y ago

This is pretty much my take on it as well. Once you hit adulthood, most able-bodied, able-minded people are expected to be "contributing members of society". But that definition is pretty nebulous - it doesn't have to be society's definition - whatever you set to be your own expectations for success. If you repeatedly fail to meet those standards you set for yourself, it can cause you to turn this feeling of pain and frustration from failure inwards, towards yourself. At some point, you simply withdraw entirely, because you are afraid of feeling the pain of failure that you trained yourself to associate with attempting to meet your goals. This is often compounded by well-meaning people trying to shame you into doing something: "You can't live like this! You HAVE to get a job!" - sort of "support" from family members or friends. Or, they might throw blame: "Why don't you work harder? Stop wasting your time doing nothing!" I think this may be a significant factor on why this symptom appears much more common in Japan, a mono-cultural society with very high expectations to conform. Also perhaps why it's growing overall, as the general prospects for younger people seem to be worse than the previous generation across most developed countries. However, I don't think you can treat the chemistry to "fix" social withdrawal. I believe it's linked to other mental health issues, like depression, anxiety, and low self-esteem. Treating those issues, primarily through therapy, is required first, before working on fixing social withdrawal, which at that point should be straightforward.

revolvingocelot 4y ago
>I don't think you can treat the chemistry to "fix" social withdrawal Oh, I'll bet you a fat R&D contract and a promised economic boom that you can. And you probably "can", for a given value of ""fix"". It'll just be another neoliberal pressure-washer pointed at the weathered rock face of our collective humanity. See, it's still just fine!
HPsquared 4y ago
I think you hit the nail on the head mentioning monoculture. If there's only one way to be successful and accepted, anyone who doesn't fit the mold simply drops out. In a more varied society there are more alternative "acceptable" paths available to those people who didn't fit the mold for the primary path.
nradov 4y ago
You're not wrong, but some fraction of the hikikomori could also be treated effectively through tough love. Their behavior is being enabled by parents who allow them to live at home, set low expectations, and fail to enforce consequences. If parents kick them out then they'll be forced to sink or swim. This may seem harsh, but those parents will die eventually and the hikikomori will eventually have to fend for themselves no matter what. Better to learn how to live in society sooner than later.
- yata69420 4y ago
  > If parents kick them out then they'll be forced to sink or swim. If you've ever lived in or near a US city, the "sink" outcome is actually quite common. > Better to learn how to live in society sooner than later. Your approach converts a family struggle into a community problem. I don't see why society would encourage families that can support hikikomori for some number of years to offload all of them onto society immediately, even if some would successfully "swim".
  - nradov 4y ago
    The community will have to deal with those people eventually. Putting it off just makes things worse. Some of those shut-ins would do well enlisting in the military, if they can pass the medical screening.

Avicebron 4y ago

I believe in Japan's case there were significant economic issues (the removal of the "lifetime salaryman career path where the company spent significant amount of time in investing/promising it's employees a social contract based on financial security) towards the end of the 80s, resulting in severe penalties to the nations youth at the time that initiated a so called "lost generation" who frequently ended up as Hikkimori. e.g. when the rug/promise was pulled out and the only prospects were low paid temp work often with no or little social safety nets, whole swathes of people realized that the social contract they signed up for was gone and it drove a lot of people into seclusion.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
whatshisface 4y ago
Add workweeks so long that you can't see your family if you have one and can't meet a partner if you don't...
- decafninja 4y ago
  I was under the impression that the lifelong salaryman career was still both available and common - just that many youths see their parents trapped in it and find such a lifestyle extremely undesirable.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    A few YouTube videos have popped up in my feed suggesting a similar trend in Chinese youth.
    - tacocataco 4y ago
      I was under the impression the Laying Flat movement was more of a protest of how things are.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago

tootie 4y ago

I'm purely speculating but I think it's also a side effect of the high degree of development in places like Japan and elsewhere in the first world. If you're the child a middle class family it's just so easy to live a subsistence lifestyle without working hard or engaging in your community. This kind of isolation would kill someone in a more primitive society but if you can lock yourself in an apartment with running water and food delivery you can be relatively comfortable forever.

HPsquared 4y ago
Kind of like how in older societies there have been examples of reclusive people from aristocracy. You don't hear about that in the lower classes, of course, because it's so unsustainable for someone in that position.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  Hermits were aristocratic? I thought they hunted, fished, and generally saw to their own needs, supplemented with occasional (minimal) trading.
  - revolvingocelot 4y ago
    I think grandparent is talking about wealthy aristocrats who decide they don't want to interact with society/anyone. Pre-pizza-delivery, one would have had to be incredibly wealthy to manage to pull this off -- or be a penniless hermit, yeah. The reason I replied, however, was the use of the phrase "hermits were aristocratic?", because it brought to mind the fad of the ornamental hermit, kept as a positional good on estates of the rich. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit
- arlcode 4y ago
  To be fair we don't hear about the lower classes in general. People who wrote the (history) books didn't bother and therefore historians and archeologist have not a lot to go by. Much of their everyday lives has to be pieced together from scarce evidence. Sociology is only arriving on the scene much later.

iaaan 4y ago

> But if the child is still out there that isn't necessarily a favor to the dog. I think this is the major problem of a lot of modern/contemporary mental healthcare. The "tough love"/rewiring/reframing + medication approach probably does often get the desired result from a 10,000ft view (the patient is "functional" within society and isn't actively trying to harm themselves or others), but it frequently gets administered in the most disgustingly dogmatic, abusive way, which leads to the person in question becoming either emotionally dead, or an anxious, neurotic mess. But hey, at least they show up on time for their cashier job! There are too many people receiving therapy licenses (only referring to the US here as I'm not familiar with the rest of the world) who have zero real understanding of what they're doing to/with their patients beyond reciting the scripts they learned in a three-day CBT or DBT seminar. And on one hand, it's hard to blame the practitioners, because what are they supposed to tell someone who hasn't been able to make rent for three months despite working full-time and is about to get evicted again? Or who is neurodivergent in some way that literally prevents them from engaging in menial labor without wanting to kill themselves? What can they concretely do to help these people other than teach them to convince themselves that everything is fine and they are the problem? The whole system is fucked up and there's not really a clear, simple, realistic solution.

swayvil 4y ago

Those roots could also be called reasonable. Do we cure reasonable?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]