12 ms·

Brazil’s cars have run on ‘green fuel’ for a century, but not without costs

71 points by Thevet 4y ago

jaredhallen 4y ago
I admittedly don't know much about this byproduct, and I do see mentioned that it's highly acidic. But if it causes algae blooms it makes me wonder if there's some sort of processing opportunity that could repurpose it for fertilizer.
- machinerychorus 4y ago
  It's mentioned in the article, but doesn't go into detail about why it hasn't caught on > Continued problems with vinasse-dumping marred the sugar-ethanol industry’s environmental image, even as specialists encouraged repurposing the nitrogen-heavy byproduct as a fertiliser. Today, compliance with anti-dumping legislation is still not effectively enforced.
- speeder 4y ago
  My extended family lives near a place where using it as fertilizer is common. It works wonderfully, also it is incredibly smelly, the reason it is used there is because there are no cities there, just gigantic prairies, as soon you get near a city the smell stops (implying people there aren't using it as fertilizer).
- TrueSlacker0 4y ago
  From Wikipedia "In the past, vinasse was a problem in production of ethanol, but vinasse is also a good fertilizer (at least for some time) and a source of methane that can be used to generate heat or electricity. Moreover, other uses of vinasse involving also the formulation of nutritive solutions for hydroponics, formulation of culture media for plant tissue culture and culture media for algal growth." Seems like it's only a problem because it's being dumped and not being purchased for reuse.
danans 4y ago
Given Brazil's huge hydro power resources and it's huge solar potential, ethanol based plug-in hybrids with smaller (hence less expensive) batteries could be a great way to move off petroleum fuels while also minimizing the use of ethanol. Of course that might be a hard sell given the importance of the ethanol production industry in the economy. But it might be a good strategy for countries that don't yet have the purchasing power to support a market for pure EVs.
- forinti 4y ago
  We already have dual fuel "flex" engines that run on gasoline, ethanol or any mixture of them. However, ethanol is too expensive south of São Paulo, so it is hardly ever used. Anyway, a flex/eletric hybrid would be very useful.
- greenthrow 4y ago
  Ethanol is not a good solution. It's extremely inefficient to take solar radiation and turn it into corn, turn the corn into ethanol and then burn the ethanol for mechanical power. Just turn the solar radiation into electricity and turn that into power. Solar and EVs are here now.
  - forinti 4y ago
    You're right, but a tank of ethanol will take you farther than batteries.
    - Retric 4y ago
      When EV’s are hitting 350+ mile ranges that’s becoming irrelevant.
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        but we are yet far from it, so it is not irrelevant. cars that run on ethanol are also cheaper than EVs and are going to stay cheaper for a long time.
goodpoint 4y ago
Reminder: biofuels made from corn are not sustainable at all. They compete against plant agriculture for access to land, making food more expensive. Often they also use a lot of energy, water and produce CO2 during the farming process.
- jokoon 4y ago
  And they produce co2 anyway. I don't think they capture as much co2 as they release.
- Kye 4y ago
  Most of Brazil's ethanol is made from sugarcane.
- lvxferre 4y ago
  >Reminder: biofuels made from corn are not sustainable at all. Reminder: you should read the article before commenting, to not make a fool out of yourself. Maize is not relevant in this discussion. RTA and you'll see why.
kkfx 4y ago
Ethanol have another more important issue: producible quantity. Brazil have peculiar climate in most of the country, it can, most other countries simply can not. That's not a matter of environmental or economical costs but a mere physical feasibility limit. That's an important aspects too many tend to fail considering, for instance "hey, but we can made antarctic bases with food self-sufficiency", yes, we can, for a single base and very few humans inside. With the work of hundred, thousand of others and a tremendous effort: the fact something is doable and done and does work at a certain scale does not means it can work at every scale.
lvxferre 4y ago
For those wondering: vinasse is the crap left after you distil the fermented mass, to retrieve the alcohol. It should not be an issue, because as mentioned by the text it's a good fertiliser; however law enforcement in most of the Americas does not fucking work, and Brazil is a prime example of that - if it's cheaper to dump it into the river than to store and resell it then producers will do it, laws be damned. Another issue (not mentioned by the text) is that long-term sugarcane farming desertifies the environment where it's grown. Yeah - it is not sustainable in the long run.
- routerl 4y ago
  Here's another example that I ran into in Brazil, and ended up making and selling a business out of. Whey, the by-product of dairy manufacturing, is most cheaply disposed of by feeding to pigs. The excess the pigs can't eat is supposed to be safely disposed of, but this is often deemed too costly, and it ends up in the river. A bribe to the right official will be cheaper anyway. So I started to buy the stuff, for pennies per decalitre. Dairies didn't have to bribe officials anymore, and the river is spared. My refrigerated truck then brought this enormous amount of whey to my nanofiltration pump (setup with the help of a local chemical engineer), where we split it into Whey Protein Isolate, which is the powder bodybuilders drink. I then became a local supplier for the (at the time) only South American company that produced and marketed protein powders in Brazil, sold my share of the business, and came home a slightly wealthier man. Every stage of this was a nightmare. The uses of whey have been well documented in the literature since the 1920's, and the equipment is cheap. In engineering terms, it's a completely solved problem. But the bureaucracy....
  - em-bee 4y ago
    in austria whey is flavored with fruit and sold as a soft drink
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      Is it any good? The taste?
littlealpiste 4y ago
É verdade

71 points by Thevet 4y ago

I admittedly don't know much about this byproduct, and I do see mentioned that it's highly acidic. But if it causes algae blooms it makes me wonder if there's some sort of processing opportunity that could repurpose it for fertilizer.

machinerychorus 4y ago
It's mentioned in the article, but doesn't go into detail about why it hasn't caught on > Continued problems with vinasse-dumping marred the sugar-ethanol industry’s environmental image, even as specialists encouraged repurposing the nitrogen-heavy byproduct as a fertiliser. Today, compliance with anti-dumping legislation is still not effectively enforced.
speeder 4y ago
My extended family lives near a place where using it as fertilizer is common. It works wonderfully, also it is incredibly smelly, the reason it is used there is because there are no cities there, just gigantic prairies, as soon you get near a city the smell stops (implying people there aren't using it as fertilizer).
TrueSlacker0 4y ago
From Wikipedia "In the past, vinasse was a problem in production of ethanol, but vinasse is also a good fertilizer (at least for some time) and a source of methane that can be used to generate heat or electricity. Moreover, other uses of vinasse involving also the formulation of nutritive solutions for hydroponics, formulation of culture media for plant tissue culture and culture media for algal growth." Seems like it's only a problem because it's being dumped and not being purchased for reuse.

danans 4y ago

Given Brazil's huge hydro power resources and it's huge solar potential, ethanol based plug-in hybrids with smaller (hence less expensive) batteries could be a great way to move off petroleum fuels while also minimizing the use of ethanol. Of course that might be a hard sell given the importance of the ethanol production industry in the economy. But it might be a good strategy for countries that don't yet have the purchasing power to support a market for pure EVs.

forinti 4y ago
We already have dual fuel "flex" engines that run on gasoline, ethanol or any mixture of them. However, ethanol is too expensive south of São Paulo, so it is hardly ever used. Anyway, a flex/eletric hybrid would be very useful.
greenthrow 4y ago
Ethanol is not a good solution. It's extremely inefficient to take solar radiation and turn it into corn, turn the corn into ethanol and then burn the ethanol for mechanical power. Just turn the solar radiation into electricity and turn that into power. Solar and EVs are here now.
- forinti 4y ago
  You're right, but a tank of ethanol will take you farther than batteries.
  - Retric 4y ago
    When EV’s are hitting 350+ mile ranges that’s becoming irrelevant.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      but we are yet far from it, so it is not irrelevant. cars that run on ethanol are also cheaper than EVs and are going to stay cheaper for a long time.

goodpoint 4y ago

Reminder: biofuels made from corn are not sustainable at all. They compete against plant agriculture for access to land, making food more expensive. Often they also use a lot of energy, water and produce CO2 during the farming process.

jokoon 4y ago
And they produce co2 anyway. I don't think they capture as much co2 as they release.
Kye 4y ago
Most of Brazil's ethanol is made from sugarcane.
lvxferre 4y ago
>Reminder: biofuels made from corn are not sustainable at all. Reminder: you should read the article before commenting, to not make a fool out of yourself. Maize is not relevant in this discussion. RTA and you'll see why.

kkfx 4y ago

Ethanol have another more important issue: producible quantity. Brazil have peculiar climate in most of the country, it can, most other countries simply can not. That's not a matter of environmental or economical costs but a mere physical feasibility limit. That's an important aspects too many tend to fail considering, for instance "hey, but we can made antarctic bases with food self-sufficiency", yes, we can, for a single base and very few humans inside. With the work of hundred, thousand of others and a tremendous effort: the fact something is doable and done and does work at a certain scale does not means it can work at every scale.

lvxferre 4y ago

For those wondering: vinasse is the crap left after you distil the fermented mass, to retrieve the alcohol. It should not be an issue, because as mentioned by the text it's a good fertiliser; however law enforcement in most of the Americas does not fucking work, and Brazil is a prime example of that - if it's cheaper to dump it into the river than to store and resell it then producers will do it, laws be damned. Another issue (not mentioned by the text) is that long-term sugarcane farming desertifies the environment where it's grown. Yeah - it is not sustainable in the long run.

routerl 4y ago
Here's another example that I ran into in Brazil, and ended up making and selling a business out of. Whey, the by-product of dairy manufacturing, is most cheaply disposed of by feeding to pigs. The excess the pigs can't eat is supposed to be safely disposed of, but this is often deemed too costly, and it ends up in the river. A bribe to the right official will be cheaper anyway. So I started to buy the stuff, for pennies per decalitre. Dairies didn't have to bribe officials anymore, and the river is spared. My refrigerated truck then brought this enormous amount of whey to my nanofiltration pump (setup with the help of a local chemical engineer), where we split it into Whey Protein Isolate, which is the powder bodybuilders drink. I then became a local supplier for the (at the time) only South American company that produced and marketed protein powders in Brazil, sold my share of the business, and came home a slightly wealthier man. Every stage of this was a nightmare. The uses of whey have been well documented in the literature since the 1920's, and the equipment is cheap. In engineering terms, it's a completely solved problem. But the bureaucracy....
- em-bee 4y ago
  in austria whey is flavored with fruit and sold as a soft drink
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    Is it any good? The taste?

littlealpiste 4y ago

É verdade