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Denmark bans Gmail and Co from schools due to privacy concerns
- woevdbz 4y agoI think back at my days in college, when a bunch of the computer science lab professors and postdocs had basically unaudited root access by design to all of the college's email and Unix logs... Or later, when I worked at an ISP and saw nominative clickstream data being casually handed over on USB sticks... I don't miss local control.
- dwighttk 4y ago“Co” seems to be Google cloud services… is that just a translation issue?
- sva_ 4y agoThe article expands: > Danish schools must stop using Google's email and cloud services In the first sentence of the first paragraph.
- dwighttk 4y agoYep that’s where I got the idea for what it meant.
- kdps 4y agoTranslation issue. In German, the expression "... und Co" is a synonym for et cetera.
- gilrain 4y agoAlso a popular expression in English; there is no translation issue. More of a synonym for “et al” than “et cetera”.
- dwighttk 4y agoYeah I think the hard thing for me being in a headline is were they saying “Gmail and other gmail like email services”, or “gmail and other Google services” I would sub “all Google cloud services” in for “Gmail and Co” if I were writing this headline (or just “Gmail” and mention the other stuff that was banned in the article.)
- TillE 4y agoTrust me, it is far far more popular in German, and would never be written as "and Co" in English. In English, "& co." is used pretty much exclusively about people, whereas in German it's used literally everywhere, basically meaning "a category of things of which [this] is a famous example."
- gilrain 4y agoNever? https://www.google.com/search?q=%22and+co%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22and+co%22
- levesque 4y agoExcept the language spoken in Denmark is Danish, not German.
- kdps 4y agoTutanota is a German company
- TillE 4y agoThe author of this article is German. Really if you've read a lot of German news, the "and Co" is a huge tell.
- tokai 4y agoIt exists in danish as well. Where it's actually picked up from English. https://ordnet.dk/ddo/ordbog?query=co https://ordnet.dk/ddo/ordbog?query=co
- wiz21c 4y agoNow let's ban MSFT Office365 too. It's of zero use to teach whatever to the kids.
- dx034 4y agoI'd have to disagree here. Teaching kids how to use Word and Excel will help them for the majority of office jobs out there.
- rgrieselhuber 4y agoPlenty of open source options that will teach them 90% of what most people will need to know. Taxpayer money should not be going to these corporations.
- eptcyka 4y agoPeople won't learn the underlying principles, they will rigidly learn the menu structure of the tool at hand. As such, their time will be wasted learning LibreOffice instead of getting a grip on the latest ribbongate spectacle from MS.
- bigDinosaur 4y agoNothing really compares to Excel. (Nothing really compares to Excel in some of its most terrible bugs either).
- highwaylights 4y agoThat’s true in the same way that it’s true of Visual Studio, but how many people really need all that functionality in their job? I’m sure there are some genuine Excel experts out there doing important work but I’ve got to assume most of what’s being done is formulas, charts and pivot tables.
- Aerroon 4y agoWhat does Excel do that something like LibreOffice Calc does not? I'm genuinely curious because I've not run into any issues with the latter that the former would've solved so far.
- oellegaard 4y agoAbout time - many schools in Denmark is now offering free Chromebooks to students. Wonder what they'll do with them now.
- noisy_boy 4y agoMaybe that presents possibility for Linux on Chromebook migration project.
- O__________O 4y agoOddly, Linux is hard, if not impossible, to run on many Chromebooks as root. A lot of Chromebooks only support “linux beta” (aka Crostini) as a subsystem of ChromeOS and the hardware doesn’t support running Linux as root from boot; frequently the low end models.
- hardwaresofton 4y ago> Oddly, Linux is hard, if not impossible, to run on many Chromebooks as root. A lot of Chromebooks only support “linux beta” (aka Crostini) as a subsystem of ChromeOS and the hardware doesn’t support running Linux as root from boot; frequently the low end models. Does any one know the reason for this -- was there ever a good description given by someone technical on the project as to why it worked out that way? All I can imagine is malice/ill-intent and I'd like to be wrong. It just seems so unlikely that somehow it was cheaper/easier to have the hardware not boot linux. I remember seeing the chromebook story on HN lately[0][1] and I was kind of disgusted by it. The technical aspects might be great, but completely beside the point that those machines are basically on-ramps to google's surveillance ecosystem. I can only think of them as the hardware version of Facebook's internet.org push -- If a whole generation grows up to think that running programs is launching domains that end in google.com, who benefits? Maybe a whole new generation will have easier access to VS Code and be able to build cool new stuff, and they'll run linux in VMs/crostini or whatever, but I can't fight the nagging feeling that a bunch of people will just stick with consumption. Figuring out how to install a program was hard, but it engendered a feeling of self-determination and control. Seems like Google wants to build the WALL-E future. All that said, in recent memory this world has also produced: - System76 - Framework - Pinebook - RISCV - Tons of SBCs that are more and more performant and can function as full blown computing devices for cheap And Google makes huge contributions (monetary and otherwise) to open source software and hardware, organizations, and projects. Are things good or bad? Yes, I guess. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32198762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32198762 [1]: https://mobile.twitter.com/timsneath/status/1550598445248811008 https://mobile.twitter.com/timsneath/status/1550598445248811...
- spyke112 4y agoI've been thinking of ditching Gmail for myself and my business, but what true alternatives are there? I already have O365, but am not particular keen on using Exchange. I'm basically only using Gmail and Calendar. Any e-mail providers based out of the EU, worth mentioning?
- amelius 4y agoFastmail, protonmail.
- pabs3 4y agoDepends on what you consider a true alternative. Self-hosted open source is still and always has been available, but companies like Google have changed what people expect of software and so traditional email software (both clients and servers) is no longer viable unless people are willing to change their expectations to leave the large providers.
- lrvick 4y agoMigadu or the company that put out this blog post, tutanota, are great if you lack the time to self host.
- dx034 4y agoFastmail is good but more if you don't use it in bigger team (my opinion). Why don't you want to use exchange? Shouldn't be too bad as long as it's configured by MSFT?
- robin_reala 4y agoFastmail were US-only hosting, last time I looked.
- vladharbuz 4y agoFastmail is great and has been great for many years.
- aliqot 4y agomigadu
- bigDinosaur 4y agoHaving until August 3 to entirely complete the transition seems incredibly rough? How can that possibly be a reasonable situation? I'm absolutely all for privacy, but I also wonder if the EU alternatives (e.g. Tutanota as per article) will be able to withstand e.g. state sponsored attacks as well as Google.
- AtNightWeCode 4y agoThese blog articles from companies that tries to sell alternatives for American cloud services should be taken with a grain of salt. They always make things sound more urgent and at larger scale than it really is.
- LatteLazy 4y agoUnless Denmark or the EU want to setup an actual competitor, there is no private alternative out there.
- sofixa 4y agoBut there are, there's even a site categorising them: https://european-alternatives.eu/category/email-providers https://european-alternatives.eu/category/email-providers
- keewee7 4y agoBut they didn't just ban GMail. The banned the entire Google Docs/Workspace portfolio.
- mavhc 4y agoAnd Chromebooks, by definition. Will be fun if you're a school that just bought 1000 Chromebooks.
- sofixa 4y agoThere alternatives to the Google Docs part too, like Collabora. It will probably require some work and won't be as polished, but there are totally ways have all of that within the EU.
- LatteLazy 4y agoThat's great, except now you need an army of IT people to stitch all these services together into one actual program and make them work. Before you just called google. And you need hardware. And fun as all this hard work might sound for tech people like us, your average teacher or principle doesn't actually know how any of this will work and has basically no budget. Meanwhile the same kids are setting up their own gmail accounts, google groups, facebook messenger etc so any hope of actual privacy is gone...
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y agoThis is basically European protectionism under the guise of privacy. My guess is that within a few years (or even sooner), you will be reading about a massive breach of student data from whatever alternative they choose to go with.
- notimetorelax 4y agoAgree, I don’t understand how a non-judicial branch can attest that Google is not compliant. If they think so, they should sue. Otherwise it sounds as if a minister invested in a local alternative…
- sofixa 4y agoICOs, which are executive and non-judiciary, are responsible for compliance and enforcement. In the same way that if you're polluting, the respective executive agency will fine you and order you to stop. With, of course, you having the option to appeal to the judiciary branch.
- hestefisk 4y agoBecause that’s not how it works in continental Europe. Our system is a lot less litigious and relies on regulation rather than litigation.
- oriettaxx 4y ago> This is basically European protectionism under the guise of privacy. if if it's just that, it's pretty easy to solve, don't you think so? The EU is leading on privacy, no doubt, or better: the EU is (finally, and really a bit too late) doing something while, afaik, the US is almost doing nothing (except for CA). I hope the EU is able to slowly write down easy to implement rules other countries can just cut & paste
- holografix 4y agoIn my little experience the EU is rather incapable of rolling out easy to implement rules. The EU members get all of the privacy downsides and none of the financial upside from the American behemoths hence the legislative gymnastics to find them for $N millions every quarter and now further protectionist moves.
- rattray 4y agoHow concretely-grounded are these privacy concerns? I know we all love to hate Google, but my impression is they take the privacy of email extremely seriously at this point (eg, no longer using it for ads). Sure, I don't trust Google that much and I know others trust their brand even less, but is there hard evidence of misuse of Gmail user data?
- sidibe 4y agoGoogle has lost the PR war in Europe they are now a political punching bag there. Practically Gmail is probably one of the best choices for privacy with a good track record including attempted breach by China playing a role in their exiting the country. But in principle Google as an ad company will never be acceptable to those who want privacy to be more valued
- oellegaard 4y agoYou might be confusing privacy with security here
- sidibe 4y agoPrivacy implies security as well
- moooo99 4y agoBut just because an application is secure does not necessitate that it is respecting privacy laws
- oellegaard 4y agoExactly, which is the case for Google in general. Probably one of the most "secure" places to put your data, but from a privacy point of view self-hosting would be better, but then the security will be lower.
- goto11 4y ago
- dusted 4y agoI'm under the impression that we (Denmark) are pretty random in what we think is important about privacy and IT security.. These ideas were probably strongly influenced by lobbyists from the main IT service providers, which are privately owned, and yet runs a large amount of out infrastructure. It'd be very much in their interest to have the goverment order some bespoke, insanely complicated/delayed/expensive system to be made.
- goto11 4y ago> These ideas were probably strongly influenced by lobbyists from the main IT service providers What is your evidence for that? It could be any privacy-conscious individual which have raised the issue to Datatilsynet. Believe it or nor, some people actually care about the safety of their kids' private information.
- msh 4y agoIts not true. I only have a correct source in danish: https://www.berlingske.dk/samfund/et-centralt-vaerktoej-for-skoleelever-blev-udraabt-som-forbudt-i-hele https://www.berlingske.dk/samfund/et-centralt-vaerktoej-for-... But only one local county have been forbidden from processing personal data on school chromebooks as they did not do any analysis of the consequences.
- oefrha 4y agoActual statement: https://www-datatilsynet-dk.translate.goog/afgoerelser/afgoerelser/2022/jul/datatilsynet-nedlaegger-behandlingsforbud-i-chromebook-sag-?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-datatilsynet-dk.translate.goog/afgoerelser/afgoe... Title seems dramatized, not surprising when it’s a blog post from a competitor eager to sell a replacement to said schools. Probably should switch to a better source.
- aliceryhl 4y agoGoogle has a blog post that says the same thing: https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/identity-security/google-cloud-eu-education-data-transfer-protections-privacy-assessment https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/identity-security/goo...
- rattray 4y agoExcerpt of summary paragraph for the lazy: > Recently, Datatilsynet (the Danish Data Protection Authority) issued a ruling emphasizing the importance of conducting proper due diligence before implementing cloud services. We agree due diligence is an important step for customers since privacy assessments and outcomes can vary significantly based on the way customers have configured their system. Although this ruling is limited to Helsingør Municipality, it may be of interest to other Danish controllers. To be clear, the ruling does not apply to Google directly or to other customers, nor does it prohibit use of Google Workspace for Education or Chromebooks in Denmark.
- goto11 4y agoThe ruling is "the first in a series of cases regarding the use of Chromebooks and the G-suite for education". So likely this is just the beginning. There have been two rulings regarding this particular municipality. First, they were investigated due to a data breach (personally-identifiable information was shared between G-suite and Youtube). This breach lead Datatilsynet (the Danish Data Protection Agency) to investigate the municipality and conclude they hadn't done their due diligence in investigating privacy implication of the setup. This forced the municipality to perform a through investigation of the privacy issues. Their findings in turn lead Datatilsynet to ban further use of G-suite an Chromebooks (in the municipality) because they found more serious issues, for example they couldn't guarantee private information was not shared with unsafe countries. The choice of software and hardware is decided by each municipality, so there will be no nationwide ban as such. But underlying privacy problems will be the same for other municipalities which use the same software.
- MzxgckZtNqX5i 4y agoRelated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32108164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32108164
- uptown 4y agoAlong these lines -- would love to know what the marketplace for all of the data collected on students from the myriad of online-learning platforms schools rushed to implement over the past couple years while homeschooling replaced in-person education. Target the smartest kids, who may go to the best schools, and earn the highest salaries and buy the most stuff. You've got to figure there's a huge market of buyers for this data.
- abricot 4y agoI can imagine there is a large market for advertising to people who did bad in math.
- yunohn 4y agoWell, if they are legit and compliant with US law, there’s COPPA (1) to protect against this. Eg, TikTok was recently (2) fined for violations. (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Online_Privacy_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Online_Privacy_Pr... (2) https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/27/18243312/tiktok-ftc-fine-musically-children-coppa-age-gate https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/27/18243312/tiktok-ftc-fine-...
- whyagain1885 4y agoSadly, too often data protection authorities just ban stuff before providing viable alternatives? I do understand there are issues with privacy shield or gpdr. For all those people suggesting OSS alternatives, it is difficult. Finding talent (yes, the govt jobs do not pay like private) to install, run, maintain suite of office-based is close to impossible. They tried at our school - as the board tried to ban Teams while they chat in WhatsApp or zoom meetings. We tried SoGo (OSS) calendar - it just sucks. Sync does not happen. The solution always is to restart phone or try later. These may work for individuals. Not for organisations unless huge number of talent moves to OSS type organisations (tutanota or etc).
- goto11 4y agoIt is not the job of the data protection agency to provide alternatives. That would lead to serious conflicts of interest.
- martin_bech 4y agoDenmark has alternatives, thats why this is done rather easily. The biggest problem is a slew of chromebooks bought by schools that will now be scraped, but the schools hated them anyway because of poor performance. Source Danish Guy with a daugther in 5th grade in Denmark.
- keewee7 4y agoThis is about privacy and only privacy. However corporate interests in the US will interpret the EU banning Google Docs/Workspace and Office365 as protectionism and lobby for retaliatory protectionist measures against EU companies. Which EU company will soon get a multi-billion dollar fine by the US government?
- haunter 4y agoIs this going to be a daily thread? I swear the comments are the same too
- ChrisArchitect 4y ago[dupe] Like the 4th post about this news from almost 2 weeks ago
- piokoch 4y agoIf anyone needs a good example of the: 1. click bait title 2. primitive advertisement, all in one place, this article is a great example. Was Gmail banned in Denmark schools? Obviously not, there is some regulation in one of the counties and it was about chromebook usage because of some privacy concerns. One. County. Article is written by a company which is a direct competitor of Gmail (they are email service too) and are apparently searching for some topic they can use to get some publicity. Nothing bad in itself, but lies are lame. And no, nobody is going to switch from Gmail to tutanota, because nobody wants mediocre user interface, be unable to search emails and force others to use some particular service to decrypt emails. Even with encrypted emails, that's just the beginning of the privacy story. If I am sending encrypted email to Bin Laden or to abortion clinics it does not help much that the content is encrypted.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago"nobody wants mediocre user interface" Is Gmail your idea of a good user interface? How many ordinaty people can setup filters to direct email from a prticular sender to a particular folder? Why can't I right click on an email and add it to a specific rule? "be unable to search emails" The mobile Gmail app fails at search, if my latest email has a word in it, typing in that word into searchbar returns nothing. I had to switch to outlook, ironically "Even with encrypted emails, that's just the beginning of the privacy story." I can get bank statements or medical records by post, they are confidential and are accepted by every court in the land. I can't get a bank statement by email and every email will be subject to 'is this real, did he really send it'. Its bear i possible to prove. so I think we've failed as an industry here
- easrng 4y agoAnd it's so slow. I miss Inbox.
- jabroni_salad 4y ago> so I think we've failed as an industry here Yeah, actually. Mail storage/search is not a solved problem. I recently trained an executive assistant to use ediscovery tools because the person she supports has too many mails to be indexed. Do yourself a favor and delete as much as possible before it all runs away from you. Stop using email as a system of record now or you will really wish you did later on. Sounds like you might have crossed that point recently. Do you keep your paper bank statements directly in your mailbox or do you move them to a filing cabinet? Likewise, you should download your records from the bank's site and store them in a real filesystem, not some subfolder of your inbox.
- hlapr 4y ago
- boringg 4y agoWhat's the replacement?