9 ms·

Ask HN: Do You Trust Grammarly?

• flipdot 4y ago
  No. I only ever use it as a last resort when I need some non-sensitive text double-checked. And by “use” I mean that it’s installed as a keyboard app on my smartphone (where I believe I can keep its possible logging activity to a minimum), but not used as an actual keyboard, only as a grammar checker to be activated whenever and wherever I need it.
• whoomp12342 4y ago
  no I donut.
• gramhan 4y ago
  I work at Grammarly. The weekly insights are meant for our users to see their writing improvements over time. These calculations (such as the number of words written) remain linked to your account, but the text you write does not (unless it's a document you've saved in the Grammarly Editor). This calculation is updated continuously throughout the week as you write more text with Grammarly. Users can see all the data that Grammarly has stored on them by submitting a personal data request from their account hub (https://account.grammarly.com https://account.grammarly.com) under "Security." I also want to note that we don't make money by selling user data (never have and never will), which some of the messages here seem to imply — we do it by selling subscriptions to Grammarly Premium and Grammarly Business. We process text to be able to provide the service. More here: https://www.grammarly.com/trust https://www.grammarly.com/trust
  • techdragon 4y ago
    See, the issue isn’t what Grammarly stores, that’s a sensibility defined policy. It’s what I would send to Grammarly that prevents me ever using it or any service like it. I don’t care how little data you’re storing. I type passwords into my browser and as a software developer I will never be sufficiently confident that you aren’t accidentally getting sent username and password box text even if you tried your damnedest to avoid it. The problem is you’re a keylogger. Ostensibly one with a positive reason your customers install you, but you fundamentally are a keylogger. I cannot trust such an application… ever.
    • gramhan 4y ago
      Our product is blocked from accessing text fields like password and credit card number fields (you can see this because Grammarly clearly does not activate in those fields). You can see what Grammarly is processing by the presence of the Grammarly widget, and you can turn Grammarly off at any time if you don’t want it to check a particular piece of text. It works where you want it to work to provide writing suggestions to you, which I understand just may not be for you (and that's OK).
      • techdragon 4y ago
        My point is more that since even my password manager occasionally has trouble identifying a password field to let me automatically fill in the passwords I have stored (this being representative of the challenge of correctly identifying such fields) … I can’t necessarily trust Grammarly to always correctly identify a text box as a username or password field or credit card field no matter how hard you’re trying to avoid this sort of thing, the only safe way would be manually activation and deactivation. Or explicit selection of text to be sent to Grammarly. But regardless of that, when my Operating System has a safe one I can trust is (for now at least) running locally (macOS) it’s hard to justify the risk of accidental exposure of sensitive information to Grammarly such as Personally Identifying Information about clients and other such business and legal risks which goes way beyond a simple matter of passwords. Grammarly is a security risk, and while I’m sure you’re all working hard to mitigate this as best as you can, you cannot eliminate certain fundamental security risks that are inherent in sending blocks of text to a third party, even manually sending a block of text contains a small level of risk that it could contain information you forgot (for a large block like a document) or included by accident without noticing (for a small block) and so it just cannot be eliminated.
• MahajanVardhan 4y ago
  NEVER. I would happily pick bad grammar over using Grammarly. Where do you write that doesn't have the grammar correction built in from the OS? If I ever want to check my grammar or language (this is quite rare), I just write it out and then put it in some online grammar checker like QuillBot. Works well for me. I have trust issues EDIT : I would happily try out some self hosted ones though. I will keep going through the thread here.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• 2143 4y ago
  No. Consider buying a copy of The Elements of Style by EB White and William Strunk Jr. It's a tiny book that you can read cover-to-cover over a weekend. Apply the concepts in the book. You're all set.
• amypinka 4y ago
  I trust it more than I trust myself to spot issues.
• XCSme 4y ago
  No, I switched to https://languagetool.org/ https://languagetool.org/
• nokya 4y ago
  Absolutely nope. Giving Google (smartphone) and Microsoft (work laptop) total access to anything I type on my keyboard is already difficult to swallow. Also, because I developed some sort of gag reflex when I see anything related to them after being forced to watch their ads repeatedly for months.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• oxff 4y ago
  It is very obviously some intelligence agency op.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• Alex3917 4y ago
  Grammarly suggested that I change "object-oriented programming" to "thing-oriented programming." How competent do you think their data team really is?
  • k__ 4y ago
    It also repeatedly changes Smart Contracts to Intelligent Contracts. I wish this were true.
    • compsciphd 4y ago
      would unintelligent contracts be better? (I kid I kid) :)
      • zaszrespawned 4y ago
        significantly better, depending on context
  • synergyS 4y ago
    Hahah hilarous
  • OJFord 4y ago
    Gosh, unless 'object' is actually incorrect, there is no context in which 'thing' is better...
    • progre 4y ago
      Maybe if you have a few "objects" in the sentence already
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• bobnamob 4y ago
  Grammarly is banned by my employer and plenty others I imagine. I’ll let that speak for itself
  • synergyS 4y ago
    Yeah - at my job as well, not to be trusted it seems
  • imgabe 4y ago
    It is essentially a keylogger, seems like most places with any security concerns at all would ban it
• colinjoy 4y ago
  no.
• klohto 4y ago
  https://languagetool.org https://languagetool.org for sure. Europe-based, can host your own server. Plus, it's the only one that doesn't seem to eat my Mac's battery. Some (might be all, actually?) parts are open source as well.
  • shade 4y ago
    LanguageTool is useful, I self-host it in Docker and use the VS Code extension to integrate with it, since I do most of my writing in markdown (including Dendron for my note-taking). Even with a degree in technical writing, I still find it helps. I overuse passive voice and unnecessary words, and LanguageTool flagging them as I write is useful.
  • dewey 4y ago
    That looks good, thanks for sharing! Haven't heard of it. Intentionally never used Grammarly because it feels sketchy to run some keylogger.
    • klohto 4y ago
      Found them on HN randomly a year ago. I'm surprised Grammarly is still tolerated in most companies with their data collection policy. A big bonus that LanguageTool has, is the seamless language switching. I can mix Czech and English texts and get right corrections for both.
      • dewey 4y ago
        Might be worth submitting separately on HN :)
  • gempir 4y ago
    Their cookie consent form already breaks a bunch of rules by being very much opt-out first instead of opt-in for alle the marketing and tracking cookies. This doesn't give me a good feeling that they are focused on privacy.
  • k__ 4y ago
• mjburgess 4y ago
  All automated "writing & style" tools are for people who can't write and have no style. If that's you, great -- better to use the tool than not. Otherwise, everything -- from Word's style tips, to these online tools are the death of authorial voice. I mean to write precisely what I say. Not "to write what I say" because that's "more concise and easier for the reader". Precisely what I say, because that's more evocative of my frustration.
  • subtra3t 4y ago
    You're assuming a oot about the people who use these programs. If you wanna hate on the program itself, sure, be my guest. But, please, don't insult their users. It achieves absolutely nothing, and only makes you come off as rude and presumptuous. A large audience for these types of tools is people for whome English is not their first language (this includes me, so please forgive any spelling/grammar mistakes you may find). This audience may be very eloquent and stylistic in their native language, but learning languages (especially when you have passed your teens) is hard, and sounding professional and sleek requires a lot more effort than you might think. Here's where Grammarly comes in. It reformats your sentences to be more consistent with your projected attitude, removing a ton of work for some people.
    • bradwood 4y ago
      I'm sorry but I agree with the essence of the TP on this. The best way to learn grammar and style is to develop your own. Regardless if you're writing in your first language or not, getting a good command of a language is going to come from personal effort, not relying on some piece of software to correct you.
      • jfim 4y ago
        It really depends on how one uses the software. If it's used as a learning aid to reinforce certain patterns (eg. "I went to office" -> "I went to the office"), it's fine in my opinion. After all, everyone started as a beginner. If it's used to fix whatever ESL word salad one writes, without using the corrections as a hint to improve one's command of the language, then I agree with you.
• troublor 4y ago
  I feel that trusting Grammarly is like trusting GitHub will not leak your code in private repository.
  • gherkinnn 4y ago
    How so? It’s in the interest of GitHub’s business not to leak private repositories. People give them money for the product. Grammarly is a keylogger masquerading as a free writing aid. Fundamentally fishy.
    • wccrawford 4y ago
      It's Free-mium, not just free, just like Github. They actually have a business model, and that includes a stripped-down version that they let anyone use for free to tempt them into paying for better stuff. So it's also in their best interest not to anger their paying customers. Edit: That doesn't mean they won't, or that they should be trusted, just that they have similar motivations to Github.
• pclmulqdq 4y ago
  The best alternative is a copy of Strunk & White and/or a colleague who has one. It is really quick to read cover-to-cover and understand, and it will make you a much better writer of everything. No, I don't trust grammarly. On top of the surveillance, it often makes grammar mistakes!
• tarunmuvvala 4y ago
  Well its a great tool for non native English speakers. It helps them on correcting a lot of basics and build confidence once you get feedback. But I am not sure of the correctness in the advanced stages.
• m1gu3l 4y ago
  I feel like a good alternative is regular old spell check and some humility in understanding we all make grammar mistakes and are here to learn. We were fine without a network connected snooping “grammar” bot. Consider not using stuff like this.
• jll29 4y ago
  I don't trust any cloud provider I don't pay, and those I do pay I don't trust either.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• rocgf 4y ago
  I'm not entirely sure I can eloquently put it into words, but I cannot see how Grammarly could possibly be trustable or even how trust should play a role in the decision to use it. I mean it's a service that basically tracks every word you write, and does so for what I consider a very small benefit. Even if you can trust Grammarly to be completely ethical today and in the future, no service can claim that it's completely secure from hacking. All OSes have what is essentially the same service as Grammarly, without having to stream every word you type to a third-party service.
  • revolvingocelot 4y ago
    >All OSes have what is essentially the same service as Grammarly Not all of them! Excluding Ubuntu, and stuff like package management management and heartbeat is-the-internet-up pings, Linux doesn't phone home about anything, let alo-- >without having to stream every word you type to a third-party service Oh, you mean the spellcheck part. Right, right, yeah.
  • ryandvm 4y ago
    Came here to say exactly that. No reputation could be stirling enough and no security practices tight enough to convince me that ANY entity should be receiving EVERY SINGLE KEY STROKE that I make in my browser. I would not send all that data to the Red Cross, much less a fucking fly-by-night browser extension company that has no choice but to monetize it.
  • autoexec 4y ago
    > All OSes have what is essentially the same service as Grammarly, without having to stream every word you type to a third-party service. Starting with Windows 10 Microsoft has been keylogging for the same reason and saving the data for themselves to use for whatever they want. I'd consider that a 3rd party personally. http://www.renegadetribune.com/windows-10-quietly-logging-every-keystroke-sending-microsoft/ http://www.renegadetribune.com/windows-10-quietly-logging-ev...
  • vletal 4y ago
    Maybe for you, I am dyslexic and my writing sucks. Even in my mother tongue, let alone English. If I need to give a good impression, I rely heavily on Grammarly because it can reformulate sentences in a way I never could. Yet for sure, I do not use it for anything sensitive or for work purposes. I do not really trust them.
• ChrisRR 4y ago
  I've never even looked into Grammarly but I just assumed that they'd store everything I type. Not even worth looking into for the sake of my security.
• spaceman_2020 4y ago
  Absolutely not. There was a point in my career where I was paid (pretty well) to be a writer. Grammarly was routinely off the mark, often hilariously so. Grammarly has difficulty correcting even basic grammar mistakes. I would never trust for anything beyond being a basic spellcheck and last minute hygiene check before you hit publish.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• alfiedotwtf 4y ago
  Think of an adversary government (e.g China), and then ask your self that same question if Grammarly were headquartered there. ... then ask yourself why you think country of origin even matters when it comes to your privacy given the past 20 years of both government and corporate surveillance.
• tjpnz 4y ago
  You could almost view it as something close to a keylogger for one's own consciousness. I wouldn't trust them with my half collected thoughts, doesn't matter where their intentions lie with regards to selling said thoughts to advertisers. That's not even the worst thing that could happen with such a trove of data.
• rvz 4y ago
  > Do you trust Grammarly? Replace 'Grammarly' with 'a keylogger'. Would you trust it now? Are you absolutely sure that it would not 'spell check' your master password and send it over to their servers without someone else looking at them and what website, field you were typing it on? Now would you trust it even more?
• shever73 4y ago
  No, I don't trust Grammarly one bit. I think there was even a question in their FAQ asking "are you a keylogger?". The answer went along the lines of "No! Absolutely not! But also yes." My team still uses it despite my attempts to get them to do otherwise.
• t6jvcereio 4y ago
  I trust them to send themselves a copy of everything I type.
• bartman 4y ago
  We permit use of Grammarly only using the stand-alone app or website, and only for content that doesn't contain any personal data & isn't security critical, e.g. blog posts, etc. As others have said, the browser extension is an unmanageable security risk and we prevent its use and installation.
  • ratg13 4y ago
    If you dont mind me asking, what tools are you using to control browser extensions for your users?
    • bartman 4y ago
      We're mandating use of Google Chrome across the org and use the Chrome Enterprise features to force installing (ad blocker, 1Password) and block (Grammarly amongst others) extensions: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/9296680?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/9296680?hl=en I'm not entirely sure if it's a feature that only comes with Google Workplace, but as part of the Workplace admin interface we get a nice UI for managing all of this.
• Kenneth21 4y ago
  [dead]
• newscracker 4y ago
  The way IT security has been (mis)handled by firms large and small, it’s just a matter of time till Grammarly announces a system breach and uses corporatese to hide the true impact and what was lost. When companies in highly regulated industries (like finance) get away with hardly any punishment, I’m not sure what kind of actions or threats of actions would even be effective against an unregulated company. Yes, reputation matters, but I’ve seen that cost is the main concern for many companies. I wouldn’t trust any company with sending every keystroke (almost) to the company’s servers. That’s why on iOS I don’t use any custom keyboards, and even if I try any, I don’t give them “Full Access” (which means it can send the keystrokes over the network).
  • ratg13 4y ago
    I'm wondering if anyone has done a GDPR data request against them to find out exactly how much personal data they are keeping long term.
• mytheory 4y ago
  If I may suggest, there is a solid tool called "Antidote" that does French and English, has a dedicated app and a chrome extension. It got me through my master.
• wvh 4y ago
  I have no experience with the company beyond the by now likely 1000 highly irritating ad videos they have thrown at me, making it unlikely I ever would want to have anything to do with them. I also fail to see how a glorified spell checker adds anything of substance or real style to ones writing, so I'm happy sticking to my locally installed spell checker.
• sva_ 4y ago
  No, I wouldn't trust it to not log everything I type. I also think that there is value in practicing your writing skills. I know this will sound very entitled, but it also sort-of bothers me how such tools might make everyone's writing, even with poor writing skills, look uniform so that it is harder to read between the lines and know what kind of person you're dealing with...
• shepherdjerred 4y ago
  I use them, but I don’t trust them.
• tmaly 4y ago
  I always think of them as a helpful key logger. /s
• lewisjoe 4y ago
  I've been thinking about this problem and this is my thought process: 1. A tool like grammarly is super helpful for the majority of non-english speaking population. So, this is not something like Facebook that we can just ignore and boycott. This is a truly useful category of tooling. 2. But, sending everything that the user types over wire and predicting with a heavy model that can only run on massive servers is evil. 3. The only viable alternative is either come up with a tech that encrypts data over wire, such that sentences cannot be decontstructed back at the server, but knows what indices in the client string. should be replaced - I'm not even sure if something like this is possible. 4. Just ship the entire model to the edge, so that no data gets transferred. Google has managed to ship a light-weight model to its Picel devices, apparently but I'm not sure effective this could be: https://ai.googleblog.com/2021/10/grammar-correction-as-you-type-on-pixel.html https://ai.googleblog.com/2021/10/grammar-correction-as-you-...
• corobo 4y ago
  One of my first introductions to tech was installing a keylogger to see how it works I've been avoidant of anything that does similar since, it really shaped my view of privacy instantly seeing (all my own) passwords, private messages, heck even delete and tab key presses, everything being dumped to a log file in real-time. Imagine if they got hacked. tldr: too creepy for me
• oriettaxx 4y ago
  of course not!
• ryanmercer 4y ago
  Yes. The only stuff it really sees is what I write on HN/Reddit/RyanMercer.com and papers I'm writing for class. 95%+ of what it sees me write is already public domain.
• michidk 4y ago
  It's just such an incredible tool that I have to trust it. The vscode plugins is such a time saver from writing docs or LaTeX. Still wouldn't use it for really confidential stuff. Their terms of use are also a bit... suboptimal.
• FridayoLeary 4y ago
  They have way to many online ads for a reputable service. Like that fake adblocker (which must be fake, because why would an Adblocker advertise on the very medium it's working against?) and all those VPNs.
• nobody9999 4y ago
  Recent (5 months ago) HN discussion (293 comments) about Grammarly here: Is Grammarly a keylogger? What can you do about it? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30470457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30470457