7 ms·

As a 60+ geezer who is back to doing what made me happy in this business before career climbing and salary chasing took me into a bad place or two, let me comme

As a 60+ geezer who is back to doing what made me happy in this business before career climbing and salary chasing took me into a bad place or two, let me commend you on realizing that contentment is what life is really all about. I truly wish I had understood this at 30 rather than finally and fully realizing it at 60.

ivanstojic 4y ago
We should recognize that there are universal needs for geezers and kids: we want some form of personal security. For a lot, that means home ownership. Let’s look at data: If the geezer is 60 and paid off their loan today, they got it 30 years ago (in 1992). The median price of single family freestanding homes in LA county in 1992 was 221k. Today it’s 860k. In 1992 the median household income was 32k and in 2020 (last available data point) it’s 76k. I understand that “the geezers” have something to teach us with a perspective of a lifetime and the needs all humans share. At the same time, we have to acknowledge and account for the economics having totally changed.
Varqu 4y ago
Perhaps you can strike a balance between the 2 options of the spectrum? I would not imagine still working in the company where I started as a Junior (and only receiving a 5% raise per year). In the same time, after jumping a few times, my salary increased 7x and I found a place where I felt really happy working, too. (before starting my own business)
- Gareth321 4y ago
  >Perhaps you can strike a balance between the 2 options of the spectrum? Exactly. This doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I believe you can have a good job and a good wage.
- Tainnor 4y ago
  > my salary increased 7x That's simply not an option in most areas of the world. I agree that a balance between the extremes is healthy, but I don't think that you're a case in point.
  - klntsky 4y ago
    > That's simply not an option in most areas of the world. That is an option in 2nd-3rd world countries, even to a greater extent than in the US (because the market is global and local jobs usually don't pay well). E.g. my compensation (I'm from an ex-USSR country) increased by a factor of 13 after two job changes (for the same amount of work).
    - distances 4y ago
      Lots of European countries have very compressed salary scales throughout the society. As a consequence 2x is common, 3x perhaps still achievable, but 4x already very hard and not possible for most people.
      - pcthrowaway 4y ago
        Couldn't you start an internship at 20K euros, and work your way up to 140K Euros after 7-8 years or so with a few job changes?
        distances 4y ago
        Theoretically, except 20k would be low for an internship (I had 30k trainee position in about 2007), and 140k is squarely in CTO territory if you're not in FAANG or somesuch top tier place. My assumption was 40k start/80k senior/120k exceptional/160k moonshot. As always, as a disclaimer Europe is a big place. I had Central-Northern parts in mind.
      - wyclif 4y ago
        Perhaps in Europe, but not in the USA.
        distances 4y ago
        Sure, I just contributed about (parts of) Europe.
        4y ago
- lhorie 4y ago
  To be fair, if someone stays a junior for enough time that their hypothetical alternate universe self is able to increase comp by 7x, the problem isn't merely a matter of job hopping vs not job hopping. In fact, it seems most of these comp growth discussions tend to fall into black-and-white thinking, when in reality there are several factors that can hugely impact comp, e.g. from retention promos and diagonal internal transfers, to company tiers (see Gergely Orosz on trimodal distribution), to international remote or full blown migration. The thing about happiness vs job hopping risks is also a false dichotomy. You can be one of those 500k+/yr staff eng at FAANGs and do 9-5 days working on interesting problems. You could be miserable in that exact same position. The spectrum is wide and how different people feel about things varies a lot too.
nickjj 4y ago
Do you ever think back and wonder if maybe you did make the right decision? After factoring in ~10x 15-20% jumps over 25 years, compounding interest and more maybe that translates to being 100% financially secure 10 years sooner. I didn't do the math but you get the idea. Basically is a temporary bad place or 2 for a year worth gaining 10 years of not having to work unless you wanted to?
- readingnews 4y ago
  This is a very serious thought. If I was _totally_ happy in my position and you told me you could increase my salary 50%, there is no way I would stay, simply based on the "wait up, this means in the long run this salary increase will take X years off my time waiting for retirement". There is no substitute for "I can retire at 60 instead of 70". Of course, OP said he was making 6 figures (an insane amount of money away from my position) so perhaps they are already planning to retire at 55...
  - lentil_soup 4y ago
    > "I can retire at 60 instead of 70" It depends, what was my life like for those 60 years vs the 70? I'd love to be financially independent, but I don't want to spend 60yrs working on projects I hate always chasing the next promotion with only the promise of retiring early. It really depends on whether that increase comes at the expense of my work life balance or not
    - vanilla_nut 4y ago
      work/life balance and work satisfaction! I find a lot of the best compensation is bundled with unhealthy organizations with dysfunctional internal relationships. I’ve worked enough on projects and tasks I don’t believe in (or flat-out disagree with) that I know it’s not worth the stress and dissatisfaction. Of course, if you don’t find dysfunction stressful, or you don’t really enjoy working in your industry regardless, it’s worth it to max the comp. But I’m happiest with a balance of flexible work, passionate coworkers, little bureaucracy, and slightly less money than I could otherwise make.
piterdevries 4y ago
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Most people (software engineers at least) will be geezers with a paid off mortgage at 60. That makes the advice kind of relevant? Hell, I’m 34 now, and there’s not that much difference.
  - sorenjan 4y ago
    He makes a valid point though. Money is uninteresting when you have it, but very important if you don't. Those are two extremes, but the point stands for the shades of gray in between. And the idea that software engineers make a lot of money and are debt free at 60 is mostly an American thing. Around here it's easy to pay more than a months net salary in mortgage payments (you need two incomes), and that's after you've payed three years salary as obligatory cash deposit. (10M SEK house, 50k SEK/month salary)
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I often listen to people older than me to learn of what they regret and what they do not. It's the closest thing to time-travel I have. That the geezer may have paid off their mortgage can also be very enlightening. It was in fact a thought experiment involving a home loan that cemented my decision to stay in the Bay Area back in the 90's.
- astura 4y ago
  A LOT of people I know in their 60s are still paying off their mortgage because when they get enough equity they either buy a bigger house or do cash out refinancing. Having a paid off mortgage doesn't let you live for free - taxes+ utilities+insurance+repairs exceed what I'm paying on my mortgage (I have no escrow).

ivanstojic 4y ago

We should recognize that there are universal needs for geezers and kids: we want some form of personal security. For a lot, that means home ownership. Let’s look at data: If the geezer is 60 and paid off their loan today, they got it 30 years ago (in 1992). The median price of single family freestanding homes in LA county in 1992 was 221k. Today it’s 860k. In 1992 the median household income was 32k and in 2020 (last available data point) it’s 76k. I understand that “the geezers” have something to teach us with a perspective of a lifetime and the needs all humans share. At the same time, we have to acknowledge and account for the economics having totally changed.

Varqu 4y ago

Perhaps you can strike a balance between the 2 options of the spectrum? I would not imagine still working in the company where I started as a Junior (and only receiving a 5% raise per year). In the same time, after jumping a few times, my salary increased 7x and I found a place where I felt really happy working, too. (before starting my own business)

Gareth321 4y ago
>Perhaps you can strike a balance between the 2 options of the spectrum? Exactly. This doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I believe you can have a good job and a good wage.
Tainnor 4y ago
> my salary increased 7x That's simply not an option in most areas of the world. I agree that a balance between the extremes is healthy, but I don't think that you're a case in point.
- klntsky 4y ago
  > That's simply not an option in most areas of the world. That is an option in 2nd-3rd world countries, even to a greater extent than in the US (because the market is global and local jobs usually don't pay well). E.g. my compensation (I'm from an ex-USSR country) increased by a factor of 13 after two job changes (for the same amount of work).
  - distances 4y ago
    Lots of European countries have very compressed salary scales throughout the society. As a consequence 2x is common, 3x perhaps still achievable, but 4x already very hard and not possible for most people.
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      Couldn't you start an internship at 20K euros, and work your way up to 140K Euros after 7-8 years or so with a few job changes?
      - distances 4y ago
        Theoretically, except 20k would be low for an internship (I had 30k trainee position in about 2007), and 140k is squarely in CTO territory if you're not in FAANG or somesuch top tier place. My assumption was 40k start/80k senior/120k exceptional/160k moonshot. As always, as a disclaimer Europe is a big place. I had Central-Northern parts in mind.
    - wyclif 4y ago
      Perhaps in Europe, but not in the USA.
      - distances 4y ago
        Sure, I just contributed about (parts of) Europe.
      - 4y ago
lhorie 4y ago
To be fair, if someone stays a junior for enough time that their hypothetical alternate universe self is able to increase comp by 7x, the problem isn't merely a matter of job hopping vs not job hopping. In fact, it seems most of these comp growth discussions tend to fall into black-and-white thinking, when in reality there are several factors that can hugely impact comp, e.g. from retention promos and diagonal internal transfers, to company tiers (see Gergely Orosz on trimodal distribution), to international remote or full blown migration. The thing about happiness vs job hopping risks is also a false dichotomy. You can be one of those 500k+/yr staff eng at FAANGs and do 9-5 days working on interesting problems. You could be miserable in that exact same position. The spectrum is wide and how different people feel about things varies a lot too.

nickjj 4y ago

Do you ever think back and wonder if maybe you did make the right decision? After factoring in ~10x 15-20% jumps over 25 years, compounding interest and more maybe that translates to being 100% financially secure 10 years sooner. I didn't do the math but you get the idea. Basically is a temporary bad place or 2 for a year worth gaining 10 years of not having to work unless you wanted to?

readingnews 4y ago
This is a very serious thought. If I was _totally_ happy in my position and you told me you could increase my salary 50%, there is no way I would stay, simply based on the "wait up, this means in the long run this salary increase will take X years off my time waiting for retirement". There is no substitute for "I can retire at 60 instead of 70". Of course, OP said he was making 6 figures (an insane amount of money away from my position) so perhaps they are already planning to retire at 55...
- lentil_soup 4y ago
  > "I can retire at 60 instead of 70" It depends, what was my life like for those 60 years vs the 70? I'd love to be financially independent, but I don't want to spend 60yrs working on projects I hate always chasing the next promotion with only the promise of retiring early. It really depends on whether that increase comes at the expense of my work life balance or not
  - vanilla_nut 4y ago
    work/life balance and work satisfaction! I find a lot of the best compensation is bundled with unhealthy organizations with dysfunctional internal relationships. I’ve worked enough on projects and tasks I don’t believe in (or flat-out disagree with) that I know it’s not worth the stress and dissatisfaction. Of course, if you don’t find dysfunction stressful, or you don’t really enjoy working in your industry regardless, it’s worth it to max the comp. But I’m happiest with a balance of flexible work, passionate coworkers, little bureaucracy, and slightly less money than I could otherwise make.

piterdevries 4y ago

Aeolun 4y ago
Most people (software engineers at least) will be geezers with a paid off mortgage at 60. That makes the advice kind of relevant? Hell, I’m 34 now, and there’s not that much difference.
- sorenjan 4y ago
  He makes a valid point though. Money is uninteresting when you have it, but very important if you don't. Those are two extremes, but the point stands for the shades of gray in between. And the idea that software engineers make a lot of money and are debt free at 60 is mostly an American thing. Around here it's easy to pay more than a months net salary in mortgage payments (you need two incomes), and that's after you've payed three years salary as obligatory cash deposit. (10M SEK house, 50k SEK/month salary)
JKCalhoun 4y ago
I often listen to people older than me to learn of what they regret and what they do not. It's the closest thing to time-travel I have. That the geezer may have paid off their mortgage can also be very enlightening. It was in fact a thought experiment involving a home loan that cemented my decision to stay in the Bay Area back in the 90's.
astura 4y ago
A LOT of people I know in their 60s are still paying off their mortgage because when they get enough equity they either buy a bigger house or do cash out refinancing. Having a paid off mortgage doesn't let you live for free - taxes+ utilities+insurance+repairs exceed what I'm paying on my mortgage (I have no escrow).