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> The stated purpose of the law is to force the general public to use digital means of payment rather than cash, so that transactions can be easily monitored.

> The stated purpose of the law is to force the general public to use digital means of payment rather than cash, so that transactions can be easily monitored. You mean you don’t want the government monitoring you at all times? I mean, the end goal is also to decide what you spend it on… > Digital dollars, on the other hand, would be traceable and programmable. The Federal Reserve (or some other designated entity) would have the ability to create more digital dollars whenever it sees fit, and, depending on how the legislation is written setting up the currency, the dollars could be formulated to have various rules and restrictions built into their design. https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/599768-biden-is-planning-a-new-digital-currency-heres-why-you-should-be-very-worried/ https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/599768-biden-is-planning... (This is the US, but UK, EU, and I’m assuming elsewhere all have the same legislation at the moment. China already has this to a degree with the social credit system) Imagine, I go to get groceries: checkout machine: “sorry, you used all your carbon credits this month” You: “but I need food!” Checkout machine: “if you need food, remember cricket powder is carbon net neutral” You: “guess I’ll eat that this week.. grumble” Yeah, that’s literally and explicitly what is being discussed. Maybe this scenario is exaggerated, but carbon tax credit and restricting purchases inbound.

a_t48 4y ago
This is heavy, heavy speculation.
- redox99 4y ago
  The same way that people claimed 20 years ago that cash would be made illegal was "heavy, heavy speculation"?
  - Nursie 4y ago
    Still is, yup. I have some cash in my pocket right now. I might even buy a sandwich with it later.
    - redox99 4y ago
      Just wait. It will happen sooner in some countries, later in others, but unfortunately it's almost inevitable.
      - wumpus 4y ago
        So the 20 year old prediction didn't come true, but just wait, you're sure it'll happen? Lots of predictions don't come true. The dystopian "A Nice Morning Drive" from 1973 turns into the Rush song "Red Barchetta" in 1980, and 40 years later, it hasn't happened.
        redox99 4y ago
        > So the 20 year old prediction didn't come true The 20 year old prediction wasn't that in 20 years cash would be banned. It was that eventually it would be banned. And yes, you can look no further than this thread to see that it is being either banned or severely limited around the world already.
- colordrops 4y ago
  Public commentary in forums that serve as forges of opinion such as HN are much more than passive statements. It's similar to the quantum effect of observation affecting the state of a system. These speculative comments actively shape opinion. Any friction against the slide towards a cashless society is welcome. Speculation serves to stoke the imagination of a populace that would be subject to these changes if there was no friction for policy makers. An example is the Murderbots video which speculates on a future where small commercial drones are used as domestic political and literal weapons.
  - Annatar 4y ago
    Actually “Hacker” “News” has been a point of ridicule for quite a while now outside of the bubble here, so arguing that it’s an opinion forge plays right into its notoriety.
    - eurasiantiger 4y ago
      This is just another bot-riddled echo chamber, with disagreements over trivialities instead of what actually matters in the world
      - colordrops 4y ago
        It's a bot riddled echo chamber because there is influence generated here.
        Annatar 4y ago
        Who exactly is being influenced?
        eurasiantiger 4y ago
        Everyone.
        4y ago
- once_inc 4y ago
  It always is, until it is proven a fact. In my country, people were being alarmist about the Corona travel restrictions, the vaccine, and the negative externalities of closing the healthcare system to pretty much everything. The alarmists were given a derogatory name, their concerns were labeled "speculation" and generally after 6 months, turned out to be true. Gov: "There will be no app to restrict your movements if you aren't vaccinated." Six months later: there's an app. Gov: "The vaccine is fully tested and is completely safe" Six months later: vaccine turns out to not have been completely tested, and the corporations behind it can't be sued. Consider me heavily, heavily sceptical about CBDC's and the government's/central bank's desires to build a social credit system. I've seen too many quotes by August Karsten not to be.
  - a_t48 4y ago
    Yes, if you throw enough theories at the wall, a few will stick.
nradov 4y ago
Remember Citizen, meat is for Party members only.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  Your language is referencing communism, but this is mostly happening under capitalism not communism. There is a meme in leftist spheres of pro-capitalist people posting photos of slums saying "this is the world under communism", except it's literally a photo of a part of the world under capitalism. Anyway, thought you should know you did the meme.
- knowaveragejoe 4y ago
  How does this kind of reactionary doomerism stuff have any traction on HN of all places?
walterbell 4y ago
There's a relevant table on page 7 of this 2020 UK document, https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/299414/REP_Absolute_Zero_V3_20200505.pdf?sequence=9&isAllowed=y https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/29941... Note the goal of zero consumer travel by 2050. Are private jets and yachts subject to Net Zero carbon restrictions?
- Nursie 4y ago
  That document appears to be an academic exercise into how the UK could reach absolute zero emissions, not net zero but actually completely zero, and doing it using current tech. This is not anyone's policy nor realistic. (edit: putting further comments here as I am rate limited and unable to reply - The paper itself says on page 4 that it is going over and above the climate commitments in law in the UK, and is about absolute zero emissions. It even says the paper is an appeal for public discussion and then goes on to set out what it means by Absolute Zero and how that differs from the current law. This is not a policy document. Heathrow's decision to cut flights is due to ongoing covid-related staffing problems, not environmental concerns.)
  - walterbell 4y ago
    From the 2nd page of the document: > UK FIRES is a research programme sponsored by the UK Government, aiming to support a 20% cut in the UK’s true emissions by 2050 by placing Resource Efficiency at the heart of the UK’s Future Industrial Strategy. UK Heathrow recently tried to impose a 50% cut in daily passenger air traffic, from 200,000 to 100,000, https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/emirates-statement-on-operations-at-london-heathrow/ https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/emirates-statement-on-...
    - eurasiantiger 4y ago
      - knowaveragejoe 4y ago
Dylan16807 4y ago
Most of the point of carbon credits is that you can buy more if you want.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  I'm not sure why this is meant to make me feel better. The elite would bid up the price of the credits so they can fully enjoy their yachts and private jets. It would still be crickets for proles.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    If the elite have all the money so nobody can do anything fun, the problem isn't this hypothetical carbon credit system that's bolted onto the side.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      You're giving them yet another lever with which to control your life while maintaining maximum freedom for themselves. Since I don't consider the overthrow of capitalism to be a realistic near-term goal, I am quite worried about near-term power grabs such as these.
quickthrower2 4y ago
Eventually ... if you drive a mate to the airport, and it is a benefit in kind worth $100 say, then they have to report it and pay tax on it.
solatic 4y ago
> Maybe this scenario is exaggerated, but carbon tax credit and restricting purchases inbound. It's funny, in context, because Israel is the largest per-capita consumer of single-use plastics in the world, driven by a religious public that uses single-use plastic to help comply with religious dietary law. Attempts have been made to implement taxation of single-use plastic, but have failed because of entrenched religious party members in the government. And crickets don't comply with Jewish dietary law. The truth is more mundane. When finding plumbers, movers, painters, etc. it is quite common to be quoted a price "without VAT", which is code for "pay in cash, don't request a receipt, and we won't charge you the additional 17%, thus also permitting them to underreport income.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  india does the same thing.... there is an entire world of unregulated cash economy which does not care about indirect taxes. >plumbers, movers, painters, etc unless you are quite big, you are not required to get registered with the tax department and as such, you dont collect taxes on your sales from customers.
  - carl_dr 4y ago
    In Israel, the threshold is low : 100000 NIS, about $29k, and that's revenue, not profit. As a reference point, the minimum wage in Israel is 60,000 NIS, so adding expenses and buying parts/consumables/fittings etc on behalf of your customers onto that, most contractors would reach that threshold quickly. I can see why the contractors are keen to stay below the threshold, and why the government is keen to restrict cash usage (they are gaining 17% sales tax as well as income tax.)
    - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
      alright. in india, for a "service provider", the threshold is inr 20 lacs or $25000. daily wages is at best inr 7-900 or $10-12. the threshold is calculated on the "bank deposits" so people simply collect cash and don't route it through the banks. that way, people can avoid reaching the limit for quite some time...
Nursie 4y ago
Or alternately it's about combatting large-scale money laundering, terrorist arms sale, and the stuff that they actually say it's for. Hmmm. > I mean, the end goal is also to decide what you spend it on… Or that might just be ludicrous hyperbole, and the article you linked could be 95% speculation, as it appears to be. The environmental concerns could be more to do with the investigations on BTC and ETH and the wastefulness of PoW. But no, I'm sure you're right, the US government that is helpless in the face of citizens slaughtering each other with firearms is going to regulate how much beef you can cram down your gullet.
bparsons 4y ago
Carbon accounting is simply a way to build in a price signal to activity that produces an unwanted externality. Imagine if it were free and legal to dump garbage in your local park. That is how air pollution is currently treated in the US. In jurisdictions with sensible climate policy, you pay to dump waste into the atmosphere and those dollars are used to reduce GHG emissions elsewhere.
knowaveragejoe 4y ago
> Imagine, I go to get groceries: > checkout machine: “sorry, you used all your carbon credits this month” > You: “but I need food!” > Checkout machine: “if you need food, remember cricket powder is carbon net neutral” > You: “guess I’ll eat that this week.. grumble” > Yeah, that’s literally and explicitly what is being discussed. Maybe this scenario is exaggerated, but carbon tax credit and restricting purchases inbound. This is trad "RETVRN" conspiracy BS verbatim. Nobody is going to force you to eat bugs or live in the pod. Let's try and do better, folks.
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  And this is where technologists totally fail to understand the implications of the technology they push forward. Okay, get a drivers license, OK submit to speed limits, OK submit to random searches for a failed bulb, OK submit to automated license plate scanners, OK submit to marketing companies tracking your car in the parking lot. Most technologies do not exist in a vacuum, when one becomes entrenched in society, it is impossible to operate as a human without one. Even the Amish have telephones now.
woodruffw 4y ago
This, for those who aren't aware, is a somewhat more eloquent rephrasing of the "Great Reset" neoreactionary conspiracy theory[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reset#Conspiracy_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reset#Conspiracy_theorie...
- llampx 4y ago
  Label a dog a conspiracy theory and hang him.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Where's the dog and who's hanging him? "You will eat bugs" is bog-standard reactionary lingo at this point. You can't credibly expect people to not notice it.
    - CursedUrn 4y ago
      You would be more convincing with reasoned arguments instead of this "guilt by association" tribalism. You do everyone here a disservice by resorting to ad hominem.
  - knowaveragejoe 4y ago
    This is a pretty run-of-the-mill globe-spanning conspiracy theory. They are all more or less scapegoating mechanisms for a given demographic.
- renlo 4y ago
  Uh oh, sounds like a “conspiracy theory”, must not have any validity at all. Is there a “sounds like a conspiracy theory” fallacy someone can point me to?
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    I'm not interested in disputing the veracity of the claim; it's not worth my time. I'm merely pointing out that this is indisputably a popular neoreactionary conspiracy theory. It's a pointless insult to this forum's intelligence to pretend otherwise.
IngoBlechschmid 4y ago
When politicians argue in favor of this kind of CO2 reduction measures, targeted at individual citizens, know that they are (perhaps unconsciously, perhaps because of dependence) following the framing put forward by fossil fuel companies: https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sham https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sh... BP spent a lot of advertising budget so that we worry about our individual CO2 footprint instead of focussing on appropriate and social policy change which would enable us and make it easy to live climate-positively.
gumby 4y ago
> I mean, the end goal is also to decide what you spend it on… Governments in the US already exercise this power, making certain drugs illegal, restricting purchases of certain products, regulating quality and other requirements for food, vehicles, construction, etc. > Digital dollars, on the other hand, would be traceable and programmable. The Federal Reserve (or some other designated entity) would have the ability to create more digital dollars whenever it sees fit, and, depending on how the legislation is written setting up the currency, the dollars could be formulated to have various rules and restrictions built into their design. The federal government already exercises both of these powers. The federal reserve changes the money supply. And WIC/“food stamps” (originally specially printed currency, now a cash card) can only be spent on certain purchases.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >Governments in the US already exercise this power Yes. And now they will have it at 100x the reach, 100x the efficiency, and with automatic monitoring, install rule-change enforcement, and so on. I never understood the tendency to say "It's already a thing" when the new development is so quantitatively and qualitatively different from what existed, as to be a whole new thing... It's like "We're at war, the towns are bombed, and people are getting killed? Big deal, people were already getting killed in murder cases and gang shootings".
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

a_t48 4y ago

This is heavy, heavy speculation.

redox99 4y ago
The same way that people claimed 20 years ago that cash would be made illegal was "heavy, heavy speculation"?
- Nursie 4y ago
  Still is, yup. I have some cash in my pocket right now. I might even buy a sandwich with it later.
  - redox99 4y ago
    Just wait. It will happen sooner in some countries, later in others, but unfortunately it's almost inevitable.
    - wumpus 4y ago
      So the 20 year old prediction didn't come true, but just wait, you're sure it'll happen? Lots of predictions don't come true. The dystopian "A Nice Morning Drive" from 1973 turns into the Rush song "Red Barchetta" in 1980, and 40 years later, it hasn't happened.
      - redox99 4y ago
        > So the 20 year old prediction didn't come true The 20 year old prediction wasn't that in 20 years cash would be banned. It was that eventually it would be banned. And yes, you can look no further than this thread to see that it is being either banned or severely limited around the world already.
colordrops 4y ago
Public commentary in forums that serve as forges of opinion such as HN are much more than passive statements. It's similar to the quantum effect of observation affecting the state of a system. These speculative comments actively shape opinion. Any friction against the slide towards a cashless society is welcome. Speculation serves to stoke the imagination of a populace that would be subject to these changes if there was no friction for policy makers. An example is the Murderbots video which speculates on a future where small commercial drones are used as domestic political and literal weapons.
- Annatar 4y ago
  Actually “Hacker” “News” has been a point of ridicule for quite a while now outside of the bubble here, so arguing that it’s an opinion forge plays right into its notoriety.
  - eurasiantiger 4y ago
    This is just another bot-riddled echo chamber, with disagreements over trivialities instead of what actually matters in the world
    - colordrops 4y ago
      It's a bot riddled echo chamber because there is influence generated here.
      - Annatar 4y ago
        Who exactly is being influenced?
        eurasiantiger 4y ago
        Everyone.
        4y ago
once_inc 4y ago
It always is, until it is proven a fact. In my country, people were being alarmist about the Corona travel restrictions, the vaccine, and the negative externalities of closing the healthcare system to pretty much everything. The alarmists were given a derogatory name, their concerns were labeled "speculation" and generally after 6 months, turned out to be true. Gov: "There will be no app to restrict your movements if you aren't vaccinated." Six months later: there's an app. Gov: "The vaccine is fully tested and is completely safe" Six months later: vaccine turns out to not have been completely tested, and the corporations behind it can't be sued. Consider me heavily, heavily sceptical about CBDC's and the government's/central bank's desires to build a social credit system. I've seen too many quotes by August Karsten not to be.
- a_t48 4y ago
  Yes, if you throw enough theories at the wall, a few will stick.

nradov 4y ago

Remember Citizen, meat is for Party members only.

kennywinker 4y ago
Your language is referencing communism, but this is mostly happening under capitalism not communism. There is a meme in leftist spheres of pro-capitalist people posting photos of slums saying "this is the world under communism", except it's literally a photo of a part of the world under capitalism. Anyway, thought you should know you did the meme.
knowaveragejoe 4y ago
How does this kind of reactionary doomerism stuff have any traction on HN of all places?

walterbell 4y ago

There's a relevant table on page 7 of this 2020 UK document, https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/299414/REP_Absolute_Zero_V3_20200505.pdf?sequence=9&isAllowed=y https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/29941... Note the goal of zero consumer travel by 2050. Are private jets and yachts subject to Net Zero carbon restrictions?

Nursie 4y ago
That document appears to be an academic exercise into how the UK could reach absolute zero emissions, not net zero but actually completely zero, and doing it using current tech. This is not anyone's policy nor realistic. (edit: putting further comments here as I am rate limited and unable to reply - The paper itself says on page 4 that it is going over and above the climate commitments in law in the UK, and is about absolute zero emissions. It even says the paper is an appeal for public discussion and then goes on to set out what it means by Absolute Zero and how that differs from the current law. This is not a policy document. Heathrow's decision to cut flights is due to ongoing covid-related staffing problems, not environmental concerns.)
- walterbell 4y ago
  From the 2nd page of the document: > UK FIRES is a research programme sponsored by the UK Government, aiming to support a 20% cut in the UK’s true emissions by 2050 by placing Resource Efficiency at the heart of the UK’s Future Industrial Strategy. UK Heathrow recently tried to impose a 50% cut in daily passenger air traffic, from 200,000 to 100,000, https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/emirates-statement-on-operations-at-london-heathrow/ https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/emirates-statement-on-...
  - eurasiantiger 4y ago
    - knowaveragejoe 4y ago

Dylan16807 4y ago

Most of the point of carbon credits is that you can buy more if you want.

chitowneats 4y ago
I'm not sure why this is meant to make me feel better. The elite would bid up the price of the credits so they can fully enjoy their yachts and private jets. It would still be crickets for proles.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  If the elite have all the money so nobody can do anything fun, the problem isn't this hypothetical carbon credit system that's bolted onto the side.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    You're giving them yet another lever with which to control your life while maintaining maximum freedom for themselves. Since I don't consider the overthrow of capitalism to be a realistic near-term goal, I am quite worried about near-term power grabs such as these.

quickthrower2 4y ago

Eventually ... if you drive a mate to the airport, and it is a benefit in kind worth $100 say, then they have to report it and pay tax on it.

solatic 4y ago

> Maybe this scenario is exaggerated, but carbon tax credit and restricting purchases inbound. It's funny, in context, because Israel is the largest per-capita consumer of single-use plastics in the world, driven by a religious public that uses single-use plastic to help comply with religious dietary law. Attempts have been made to implement taxation of single-use plastic, but have failed because of entrenched religious party members in the government. And crickets don't comply with Jewish dietary law. The truth is more mundane. When finding plumbers, movers, painters, etc. it is quite common to be quoted a price "without VAT", which is code for "pay in cash, don't request a receipt, and we won't charge you the additional 17%, thus also permitting them to underreport income.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago
india does the same thing.... there is an entire world of unregulated cash economy which does not care about indirect taxes. >plumbers, movers, painters, etc unless you are quite big, you are not required to get registered with the tax department and as such, you dont collect taxes on your sales from customers.
- carl_dr 4y ago
  In Israel, the threshold is low : 100000 NIS, about $29k, and that's revenue, not profit. As a reference point, the minimum wage in Israel is 60,000 NIS, so adding expenses and buying parts/consumables/fittings etc on behalf of your customers onto that, most contractors would reach that threshold quickly. I can see why the contractors are keen to stay below the threshold, and why the government is keen to restrict cash usage (they are gaining 17% sales tax as well as income tax.)
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    alright. in india, for a "service provider", the threshold is inr 20 lacs or $25000. daily wages is at best inr 7-900 or $10-12. the threshold is calculated on the "bank deposits" so people simply collect cash and don't route it through the banks. that way, people can avoid reaching the limit for quite some time...

Nursie 4y ago

Or alternately it's about combatting large-scale money laundering, terrorist arms sale, and the stuff that they actually say it's for. Hmmm. > I mean, the end goal is also to decide what you spend it on… Or that might just be ludicrous hyperbole, and the article you linked could be 95% speculation, as it appears to be. The environmental concerns could be more to do with the investigations on BTC and ETH and the wastefulness of PoW. But no, I'm sure you're right, the US government that is helpless in the face of citizens slaughtering each other with firearms is going to regulate how much beef you can cram down your gullet.

bparsons 4y ago

Carbon accounting is simply a way to build in a price signal to activity that produces an unwanted externality. Imagine if it were free and legal to dump garbage in your local park. That is how air pollution is currently treated in the US. In jurisdictions with sensible climate policy, you pay to dump waste into the atmosphere and those dollars are used to reduce GHG emissions elsewhere.

knowaveragejoe 4y ago

> Imagine, I go to get groceries: > checkout machine: “sorry, you used all your carbon credits this month” > You: “but I need food!” > Checkout machine: “if you need food, remember cricket powder is carbon net neutral” > You: “guess I’ll eat that this week.. grumble” > Yeah, that’s literally and explicitly what is being discussed. Maybe this scenario is exaggerated, but carbon tax credit and restricting purchases inbound. This is trad "RETVRN" conspiracy BS verbatim. Nobody is going to force you to eat bugs or live in the pod. Let's try and do better, folks.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
And this is where technologists totally fail to understand the implications of the technology they push forward. Okay, get a drivers license, OK submit to speed limits, OK submit to random searches for a failed bulb, OK submit to automated license plate scanners, OK submit to marketing companies tracking your car in the parking lot. Most technologies do not exist in a vacuum, when one becomes entrenched in society, it is impossible to operate as a human without one. Even the Amish have telephones now.

woodruffw 4y ago

This, for those who aren't aware, is a somewhat more eloquent rephrasing of the "Great Reset" neoreactionary conspiracy theory[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reset#Conspiracy_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reset#Conspiracy_theorie...

llampx 4y ago
Label a dog a conspiracy theory and hang him.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Where's the dog and who's hanging him? "You will eat bugs" is bog-standard reactionary lingo at this point. You can't credibly expect people to not notice it.
  - CursedUrn 4y ago
    You would be more convincing with reasoned arguments instead of this "guilt by association" tribalism. You do everyone here a disservice by resorting to ad hominem.
- knowaveragejoe 4y ago
  This is a pretty run-of-the-mill globe-spanning conspiracy theory. They are all more or less scapegoating mechanisms for a given demographic.
renlo 4y ago
Uh oh, sounds like a “conspiracy theory”, must not have any validity at all. Is there a “sounds like a conspiracy theory” fallacy someone can point me to?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I'm not interested in disputing the veracity of the claim; it's not worth my time. I'm merely pointing out that this is indisputably a popular neoreactionary conspiracy theory. It's a pointless insult to this forum's intelligence to pretend otherwise.

IngoBlechschmid 4y ago

When politicians argue in favor of this kind of CO2 reduction measures, targeted at individual citizens, know that they are (perhaps unconsciously, perhaps because of dependence) following the framing put forward by fossil fuel companies: https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sham https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sh... BP spent a lot of advertising budget so that we worry about our individual CO2 footprint instead of focussing on appropriate and social policy change which would enable us and make it easy to live climate-positively.

gumby 4y ago

> I mean, the end goal is also to decide what you spend it on… Governments in the US already exercise this power, making certain drugs illegal, restricting purchases of certain products, regulating quality and other requirements for food, vehicles, construction, etc. > Digital dollars, on the other hand, would be traceable and programmable. The Federal Reserve (or some other designated entity) would have the ability to create more digital dollars whenever it sees fit, and, depending on how the legislation is written setting up the currency, the dollars could be formulated to have various rules and restrictions built into their design. The federal government already exercises both of these powers. The federal reserve changes the money supply. And WIC/“food stamps” (originally specially printed currency, now a cash card) can only be spent on certain purchases.

coldtea 4y ago
>Governments in the US already exercise this power Yes. And now they will have it at 100x the reach, 100x the efficiency, and with automatic monitoring, install rule-change enforcement, and so on. I never understood the tendency to say "It's already a thing" when the new development is so quantitatively and qualitatively different from what existed, as to be a whole new thing... It's like "We're at war, the towns are bombed, and people are getting killed? Big deal, people were already getting killed in murder cases and gang shootings".

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]