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TikTok and Facebook’s antics (existence?) have me seriously considering quitting tech. I feel like no matter what I do, I am feeding one of these societal cance

TikTok and Facebook’s antics (existence?) have me seriously considering quitting tech. I feel like no matter what I do, I am feeding one of these societal cancers by implementing tracking for whoever is paying me currently, lifting dark patterns, etc, using the API of Google… I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. My only marketable skill is software development and I pretty much hate what it has become. 16 years down the drain.

vorpalhex 4y ago
Good, user respectful software exists in many forms. IRC is still around, gemini is pleasant, I like Matrix too. I don't think you'll get the huge audience of these other platforms. That may be a feature.
- astrange 4y ago
  Is IRC respecting you when it has no encryption, no authentication, and frequently netsplits?
  - OmarAssadi 4y ago
    Not to totally dismiss any concerns, but most IRC servers support TLS. While not end-to-end in the sense that the server can read all of the messages, encryption is available. And in the case of IRC, with the most common use case being channels for particular communities which often need moderation, I don’t think the fact that the server can read the chat is a big issue. I wouldn’t advocate for it as a way to privately and individually communicate with people one-on-one, but I think it’s pretty okay for what it is. The nice thing with IRC, though, is that by not being one massive centralized entity where all channels in existence reside, you’re not depending on one particular network in the same way you might be dependent on services like Discord. You can run your own server for your own community where you can set your own rules and manage everything the way you want to. IRCv3 also has SASL [1]. And more rudimentary forms of authentication have been around for ages on most servers. [1]: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/sasl-3.1 https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/sasl-3.1
petre 4y ago
You can still work in the fintech or automotive sectors where you won't have to do ads. Most people I've talked with that were doing frontend and one who was doing Java were all working on ad related stuff. A disproportionate waste of time and energy.
- winternett 4y ago
  It's rather telling that the ad tools on platforms are becoming the biggest facet of development jobs in social media. In looking through them myself, I've noticed how gamified and geared towards addiction they have become. Platforms encourage users to "experiment" until they find our what works, and everyone has to figure out how to target audiences properly, and the configuration options are very intense and varying (based on what is trending) each time... It's almost like playing roulette in a casino. Lord have mercy on all the inexperienced kids and others who just want to create videos and have them seen when they try ads... A lot of experimental money is gambled away on ads daily... I'm pretty sure it's a big pile of income annually for platforms.
quartesixte 4y ago
Well, the good news is that there are plenty of companies out there who are solving Real Problems that need good developers. Perhaps it’s time that bright, young, talented minds are dedicated to solving Real Problems again in the world.
bigDinosaur 4y ago
There are plenty of jobs that don't require you to implement tracking/evil things. There's very possibly a pay cut in doing so..
- jondwillis 4y ago
  I should specify that I am an iOS engineer.
  - unionpivo 4y ago
    If you can develop IOS apps, You can also develop other things. Become backend developer. Pretty much everybody needs them.
  - jacobn 4y ago
    Let the lifelong learning continue? ;)
    - jondwillis 4y ago
      Yep, getting into some hobbies lately to spark some passion, since I already have one eye out the door.
  - musicale 4y ago
    I like iOS apps that aren't full of tracking nonsense (and the nutrition labels might help.) But dark patterns abound, and mobile gaming is largely a hell of monetization and slot-machine mechanics.
    - wincy 4y ago
      It’s so frustrating that my iPhone 12 Pro Max could be a perfect platform for playing serious games, but instead I have to haul around a Nintendo Switch. I know my iPhone can render excellent graphics, I played to level 60 on Diablo Immortal then got out before they could extract more than $10 from me!
  - 4y ago
grishka 4y ago
You may be interested in the fediverse in particular and in open-source nonprofits in general.
chii 4y ago
> I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. it's because any way to make money that is currently legal (but some might consider unethical) is the fittest agent in the darwinian natural selection of economic competition. So any ethical businesses who forgo a more profitable, but slightly less ethical method, would be out-competed. Over time, therefore, what remains must be businesses whose ethical consideration is trumped by profit considerations. Instagram is following this exactly - tiktok has better retention and user engagement using the dark patterns, and instagram would not survive if they can't keep up. So it's really up to the law to set the standard. Akin to how in the old days, environmental protection laws don't exist, and the environment is polluted, there needs to be laws to protect the consumer's "digital environment". Unfortunately, the law is slow to catchup - i doubt i will see it in my life time, and often, the law only catches up after significant damage has been done.
- lrvick 4y ago
  It is not up to the law to set the standard. That is giving people ethical permission to sell their skill to the highest bidder. No one makes you work for casinos, big pharma, anti-human-rights political groups, or surveillance capitalism companies. If you work for an unethical company you share responsibility for the harm they do. If a company you work for is behaving unethically, quit, and find another job. I promise it is an option.
  - JonShartwell 4y ago
    It absolutely is up to the law to set the standard. Wishing people would all live up to your ethical standards for no reason will always have the same result: no difference. You can wish it all you want but it’s never going to actually cause an improvement to the world. Making unethical behavior illegal actually does have an impact on what people do because it changes their cost/reward decision
  - monista 4y ago
    This is a funny example of a dark pattern: along with undoubtedly evil entities like anti-human-rights groups, you mentioned big pharma, probably to promote your anti-scientific agenda.
lrvick 4y ago
After working for so many companies that went down the surveillance capitalism path I finally decided I would only work on security and privacy projects. It turns out even with this limitation I have had endless job options. So much so I decided to start my own consulting company so I could pick and choose the most interesting projects across many non-survcap companies. I am a -lot- happier. Also as an independent contractor I have more control of the tools I use and am free to use and support only open source software on my workstations.
- jondwillis 4y ago
  Interesting. I’m wracking my brain trying to figure out a similar industry that I can get excited about. The cat and mouse nature of security and privacy puts me off a bit. Maybe green tech? Appreciate the comment nonetheless!
  - neon_electro 4y ago
    Green tech isn't terrible - I spent 4.5 years there. But here's my review of where I was: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Inspire-RVW60109261.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Inspire-RV...
winternett 4y ago
I'm not as worried about the tracking as much as I'm baffled by how psychological manipulation is now a commonly accepted practice on social platforms. That totally obliterates any trustworthiness they could present as a business. Children suffer the most in this fake celebrity game. I use these apps a lot because I promote music I make... I don't really use black hat techniques to do so, but many people who do are completely robbing creator funds and getting far more exposure than most of the honest and most talented creators all combined. The platforms favor memes and things that don't promote any business outside of the platform, so it's made psychological manipulation and subtle suggestion very popular in pretty much every video. The endorphin rush people used to get is dying as videos turn more and more hostile and shockingly towards influencing viewers consumerism habits. I think ethics are everything though, so I don't leverage my black hat development knowledge against platforms just to be heard, and don't waste tons of money on ads like the highly viewed accounts do... Accounts try to manipulate you into giving them your money, the platforms work to manipulate you into giving them your money for ads, it will eventually wear itself out once the money dries up or people catch on that most people on these platforms aren't really making good money, except for the platforms. I try to always post non-psych-manipulative music related things for followers as well as cynical shitposts in protest as the platforms slowly direct my views towards overseas viewers that will never really purchase nor stream my music. It's rather grim, but I'm sharpening my video editing skills, and it motivates me to keep making music that I can take to whatever slowly corrupted social shit show comes next... touché!
- hrbf 4y ago
  I have decided some time ago that I will not work for any company who is engaging in such practices. I will not feed the manipulation machine, to the best of my abilities. I don’t have to quit tech entirely but focus on parts where I can do good for people. I’m now in talks with a foundation who is building communication tools for social and public initiatives. I don’t know if the idea will work out in the end but there are alternatives worth pursuing. I really don’t understand the engineers and designers working at Facebook and similar companies. They cannot all be ignorant. There has to be some cultural angle of disdain for the regular user at play.
arrosenberg 4y ago
Check out Biotech! Lots of software development and machine learning going on with very, very minimal marketing activity involved compared to tech, finance, etc.
sorry_outta_gas 4y ago
There's way to more to software than whatever it is you've been working on
princevegeta89 4y ago
You don't need to quit tech. You need to find a position that helps solve real problems for the greater good. If you think about it, companies like Apple are very pro-privacy and don't make money by selling data or tracking folks. Or look into other companies like those non-profits like Mozilla or Signal. Your pay will go down but you'll be content. Or maybe, you could look into building your own company. Facebook is a cesspit of delusion and the "metaverse" initiative they took takes us to a point of no return for all their apps. Tiktok I would say is even worse given how we basically have millions of young teens oscillating on the borderline of being "famous" and sexualizing themselves. Stay away from such social media platforms or those that offer completely "free" products and you are good.
- neon_electro 4y ago
  I applied to several Apple positions this year, they are still hell-bent on hybrid/on-site positions.
- winternett 4y ago
  If apple is pro privacy, they wouldn't be putting lidar scanning on their phones. Whether it's enabled or not, Lidar is military-grade tech that has no place on most cell phones, Let's not act like the entire industry isn't heavily invested in data collection... It does damage to real discussions about privacy and consumer protection for everyone.
  - bobkazamakis 4y ago
    > Lidar is military-grade tech encryption is military-grade tech too.
    - winternett 4y ago
      Yeah, but encryption is purposed as a security feature, Lidar is a data collection feature. https://www.opentopography.org/blog/iphone-lidar-applications-geosciences https://www.opentopography.org/blog/iphone-lidar-application...
nicbou 4y ago
It doesn't have to be that way. You can make your own software, or make your own line in the sand. Wherever you go, software development skills will have some use. They're not going to waste.
classified 4y ago
This weapon-grade PsyOps stuff should be illegal. But that will never happen, it's just too profitable.
bsaul 4y ago
i used to work as a develper for an adtech company, and it made me really happy to quit that world. Not every tech company is using ad-based business model. Look for others.
JohnFen 4y ago
I've reached the exact same place. The entire software and internet space strikes me as having become a monster, and I increasingly have great difficulty convincing myself that it's OK to be a part of it. The problem is that software engineering is my only marketable skill. I've fallen into a trap.

vorpalhex 4y ago

Good, user respectful software exists in many forms. IRC is still around, gemini is pleasant, I like Matrix too. I don't think you'll get the huge audience of these other platforms. That may be a feature.

astrange 4y ago
Is IRC respecting you when it has no encryption, no authentication, and frequently netsplits?
- OmarAssadi 4y ago
  Not to totally dismiss any concerns, but most IRC servers support TLS. While not end-to-end in the sense that the server can read all of the messages, encryption is available. And in the case of IRC, with the most common use case being channels for particular communities which often need moderation, I don’t think the fact that the server can read the chat is a big issue. I wouldn’t advocate for it as a way to privately and individually communicate with people one-on-one, but I think it’s pretty okay for what it is. The nice thing with IRC, though, is that by not being one massive centralized entity where all channels in existence reside, you’re not depending on one particular network in the same way you might be dependent on services like Discord. You can run your own server for your own community where you can set your own rules and manage everything the way you want to. IRCv3 also has SASL [1]. And more rudimentary forms of authentication have been around for ages on most servers. [1]: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/sasl-3.1 https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/sasl-3.1

petre 4y ago

You can still work in the fintech or automotive sectors where you won't have to do ads. Most people I've talked with that were doing frontend and one who was doing Java were all working on ad related stuff. A disproportionate waste of time and energy.

winternett 4y ago
It's rather telling that the ad tools on platforms are becoming the biggest facet of development jobs in social media. In looking through them myself, I've noticed how gamified and geared towards addiction they have become. Platforms encourage users to "experiment" until they find our what works, and everyone has to figure out how to target audiences properly, and the configuration options are very intense and varying (based on what is trending) each time... It's almost like playing roulette in a casino. Lord have mercy on all the inexperienced kids and others who just want to create videos and have them seen when they try ads... A lot of experimental money is gambled away on ads daily... I'm pretty sure it's a big pile of income annually for platforms.

quartesixte 4y ago

Well, the good news is that there are plenty of companies out there who are solving Real Problems that need good developers. Perhaps it’s time that bright, young, talented minds are dedicated to solving Real Problems again in the world.

bigDinosaur 4y ago

There are plenty of jobs that don't require you to implement tracking/evil things. There's very possibly a pay cut in doing so..

jondwillis 4y ago
I should specify that I am an iOS engineer.
- unionpivo 4y ago
  If you can develop IOS apps, You can also develop other things. Become backend developer. Pretty much everybody needs them.
- jacobn 4y ago
  Let the lifelong learning continue? ;)
  - jondwillis 4y ago
    Yep, getting into some hobbies lately to spark some passion, since I already have one eye out the door.
- musicale 4y ago
  I like iOS apps that aren't full of tracking nonsense (and the nutrition labels might help.) But dark patterns abound, and mobile gaming is largely a hell of monetization and slot-machine mechanics.
  - wincy 4y ago
    It’s so frustrating that my iPhone 12 Pro Max could be a perfect platform for playing serious games, but instead I have to haul around a Nintendo Switch. I know my iPhone can render excellent graphics, I played to level 60 on Diablo Immortal then got out before they could extract more than $10 from me!
- 4y ago

grishka 4y ago

You may be interested in the fediverse in particular and in open-source nonprofits in general.

chii 4y ago

> I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical. it's because any way to make money that is currently legal (but some might consider unethical) is the fittest agent in the darwinian natural selection of economic competition. So any ethical businesses who forgo a more profitable, but slightly less ethical method, would be out-competed. Over time, therefore, what remains must be businesses whose ethical consideration is trumped by profit considerations. Instagram is following this exactly - tiktok has better retention and user engagement using the dark patterns, and instagram would not survive if they can't keep up. So it's really up to the law to set the standard. Akin to how in the old days, environmental protection laws don't exist, and the environment is polluted, there needs to be laws to protect the consumer's "digital environment". Unfortunately, the law is slow to catchup - i doubt i will see it in my life time, and often, the law only catches up after significant damage has been done.

lrvick 4y ago
It is not up to the law to set the standard. That is giving people ethical permission to sell their skill to the highest bidder. No one makes you work for casinos, big pharma, anti-human-rights political groups, or surveillance capitalism companies. If you work for an unethical company you share responsibility for the harm they do. If a company you work for is behaving unethically, quit, and find another job. I promise it is an option.
- JonShartwell 4y ago
  It absolutely is up to the law to set the standard. Wishing people would all live up to your ethical standards for no reason will always have the same result: no difference. You can wish it all you want but it’s never going to actually cause an improvement to the world. Making unethical behavior illegal actually does have an impact on what people do because it changes their cost/reward decision
- monista 4y ago
  This is a funny example of a dark pattern: along with undoubtedly evil entities like anti-human-rights groups, you mentioned big pharma, probably to promote your anti-scientific agenda.

lrvick 4y ago

After working for so many companies that went down the surveillance capitalism path I finally decided I would only work on security and privacy projects. It turns out even with this limitation I have had endless job options. So much so I decided to start my own consulting company so I could pick and choose the most interesting projects across many non-survcap companies. I am a -lot- happier. Also as an independent contractor I have more control of the tools I use and am free to use and support only open source software on my workstations.

jondwillis 4y ago
Interesting. I’m wracking my brain trying to figure out a similar industry that I can get excited about. The cat and mouse nature of security and privacy puts me off a bit. Maybe green tech? Appreciate the comment nonetheless!
- neon_electro 4y ago
  Green tech isn't terrible - I spent 4.5 years there. But here's my review of where I was: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Inspire-RVW60109261.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Inspire-RV...

winternett 4y ago

I'm not as worried about the tracking as much as I'm baffled by how psychological manipulation is now a commonly accepted practice on social platforms. That totally obliterates any trustworthiness they could present as a business. Children suffer the most in this fake celebrity game. I use these apps a lot because I promote music I make... I don't really use black hat techniques to do so, but many people who do are completely robbing creator funds and getting far more exposure than most of the honest and most talented creators all combined. The platforms favor memes and things that don't promote any business outside of the platform, so it's made psychological manipulation and subtle suggestion very popular in pretty much every video. The endorphin rush people used to get is dying as videos turn more and more hostile and shockingly towards influencing viewers consumerism habits. I think ethics are everything though, so I don't leverage my black hat development knowledge against platforms just to be heard, and don't waste tons of money on ads like the highly viewed accounts do... Accounts try to manipulate you into giving them your money, the platforms work to manipulate you into giving them your money for ads, it will eventually wear itself out once the money dries up or people catch on that most people on these platforms aren't really making good money, except for the platforms. I try to always post non-psych-manipulative music related things for followers as well as cynical shitposts in protest as the platforms slowly direct my views towards overseas viewers that will never really purchase nor stream my music. It's rather grim, but I'm sharpening my video editing skills, and it motivates me to keep making music that I can take to whatever slowly corrupted social shit show comes next... touché!

hrbf 4y ago
I have decided some time ago that I will not work for any company who is engaging in such practices. I will not feed the manipulation machine, to the best of my abilities. I don’t have to quit tech entirely but focus on parts where I can do good for people. I’m now in talks with a foundation who is building communication tools for social and public initiatives. I don’t know if the idea will work out in the end but there are alternatives worth pursuing. I really don’t understand the engineers and designers working at Facebook and similar companies. They cannot all be ignorant. There has to be some cultural angle of disdain for the regular user at play.

arrosenberg 4y ago

Check out Biotech! Lots of software development and machine learning going on with very, very minimal marketing activity involved compared to tech, finance, etc.

sorry_outta_gas 4y ago

There's way to more to software than whatever it is you've been working on

princevegeta89 4y ago

You don't need to quit tech. You need to find a position that helps solve real problems for the greater good. If you think about it, companies like Apple are very pro-privacy and don't make money by selling data or tracking folks. Or look into other companies like those non-profits like Mozilla or Signal. Your pay will go down but you'll be content. Or maybe, you could look into building your own company. Facebook is a cesspit of delusion and the "metaverse" initiative they took takes us to a point of no return for all their apps. Tiktok I would say is even worse given how we basically have millions of young teens oscillating on the borderline of being "famous" and sexualizing themselves. Stay away from such social media platforms or those that offer completely "free" products and you are good.

neon_electro 4y ago
I applied to several Apple positions this year, they are still hell-bent on hybrid/on-site positions.
winternett 4y ago
If apple is pro privacy, they wouldn't be putting lidar scanning on their phones. Whether it's enabled or not, Lidar is military-grade tech that has no place on most cell phones, Let's not act like the entire industry isn't heavily invested in data collection... It does damage to real discussions about privacy and consumer protection for everyone.
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  > Lidar is military-grade tech encryption is military-grade tech too.
  - winternett 4y ago
    Yeah, but encryption is purposed as a security feature, Lidar is a data collection feature. https://www.opentopography.org/blog/iphone-lidar-applications-geosciences https://www.opentopography.org/blog/iphone-lidar-application...

nicbou 4y ago

It doesn't have to be that way. You can make your own software, or make your own line in the sand. Wherever you go, software development skills will have some use. They're not going to waste.

classified 4y ago

This weapon-grade PsyOps stuff should be illegal. But that will never happen, it's just too profitable.

bsaul 4y ago

i used to work as a develper for an adtech company, and it made me really happy to quit that world. Not every tech company is using ad-based business model. Look for others.

JohnFen 4y ago

I've reached the exact same place. The entire software and internet space strikes me as having become a monster, and I increasingly have great difficulty convincing myself that it's OK to be a part of it. The problem is that software engineering is my only marketable skill. I've fallen into a trap.