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Mechanics invent an axle that can achieve steering angles of up to 80 degrees
- schainks 4y agoDid they test this in Rome? Because that’s probably a city with a good sized addressable market.
- bob1029 4y agoIf you want to see some even more insane steering angles, check out drift cars. They've been doing this for a while now. Even discounting the parking & u-turn use cases, the amount of extra control you get at the extremes with more steering angle can be pretty remarkable. It took me a long time to figure out why so many cars in downtown Houston had super fucked up tire arrangements (extreme camber, sticking out really far, etc). Apparently drifting setups are kind of a big deal in the car community now. Makes a lot more sense once you understand the engineering and use cases.
- mwint 4y agoHuh, I always thought they did that because someone (mistakenly) thought it looked cool. The extreme camber actually does help with a measurable aspect of handling?
- photoGrant 4y agoOf course. The more sideways you are the more you’d still like your wheels to point the direction of intended travel!
- tristor 4y agoThere are two completely disparate car communities that use camber. 1. People who need negative camber to support high traction while drifting or in tight turns on a race track. (this is the minority unfortunately) 2. Stance kids who think it looks cool and put "most locally hated" stickers on their car and post about it constantly on TikTok. (this is the majority, unfortunately). There are very few track-driven vehicles running more than -6 degrees of camber in the front, meanwhile it is commonplace to see stance cars with -10 degrees or more of camber. My race car runs -4.5 in the front, as an example, and my buddy's drift car is running -6.
- bluedino 4y agoWhere does the 225 tire on a 10" wheel come in? I ask because drag racers will run a 275mm on a 14 or 15 inch wheel so there must be a reason the wannabe drift kids do it.
- neuralRiot 4y agoThe drag racers use such tire/rim ratio to make a flexible connection to the ground and improve traction. This https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000uzO7iSXj_JU/fit=1000x750/20120504-nhra-1297.jpg https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000uzO7iSXj_JU/fit... is whathappen when your only way to transmit 10k Hp to the ground is 2 pieces of rubber.
- mulmen 4y agoShort sidewalls ostensibly offer better cornering because there is less deflection in the sidewall. They also enable the use of larger brakes. Drag racers don't care about this since they don't turn unless something has gone wrong and they have lots of room to slow down. In drag racing the sidewall is used like a coil spring to capture torque before moving forward and then transmit it to the course. Stance kids and all their variants do things because it looks good to them.
- King-Aaron 4y agoSo in the earlier days of the drift scene, a lot of cars ran small, stretched tires to allow the car to slide easier. Smaller tyre has less grip, and the stretch stiffens the sidewall. When you've got a relatively low powered car this helped a lot. These days a lot of drift drivers opt for more traditional tire sizing with the aim of getting more grip - as cars get faster and entry speeds into corners also get faster, you want more grip to sustain better angle. The 'stance' look that you see with people stretching tyres is kind of a throwback to those early days, with a bit more of a focus on form over function. Personally it isn't my thing.
- jacquesm 4y agoIn extreme conditions, yes. But in normal conditions and if you care about tire wear it is a net negative.
- Kirby64 4y agoDonut Media (big YouTube channel) has a series of videos that have been uploaded quite recently showing the installation of some of the drift car parts needed to do this super high steering angle gear. They do drifting after the installs and you can see how big an impact it has on maneuverability. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L73giZ75jTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L73giZ75jTU
- replygirl 4y agomost knuckles on drift builds are between 60 and 70 degrees--putting 80 on a RWD electric car is just a great way for the average driver to spin when they try to avoid a collision
- sloucher 4y agoOne of the things that make this possible is the sudden increase in space in [what was] the engine compartment, now that electric cars are more common. Most small cars with petrol engines have nowhere near enough space for the wheel to turn like that.
- throwaway0a5e 4y agoEven in the rear of the vehicle where things don't need to steer packaging is a huge priority. Removing the engine won't change this. The tire was never really trying to conflict with the engine anyway. It was the structural bits of the car that kinda need to be there to support the front and the suspension that got in the way.
- rootusrootus 4y agoI expect the real packaging issue with a FWD car would be the driveshafts.
- throwaway0a5e 4y agoExactly. If they had a CV shaft that could support these operating angles at an only slightly insane price point they would be telling us because that's a much bigger accomplishment than a steering linkage that has a lot of angle. Forklifts have a lot of angle and nobody cares. It's a question of straightforward tradeoffs.
- Brian_K_White 4y agoNow you're making me imagine a complicated arrangement with essentially 2 vertical hinges, where the wheel only swings out away from the car regardless which way it's turned. Then it needs no more room in the engine bay. It would rattle and klunk near the center/straight position, but aside from that it's physically possible. It would probably need some kind of belt to drive the axle so that it can bend around a pulley and a changing angle while still delivering the power. Ok I've gone off the deep end...
- Zenst 4y agoThe 1953 Bond minicar Mark C has a steering angle of 90 degree's: http://microcarmuseum.com/tour/bond-mk-c.html http://microcarmuseum.com/tour/bond-mk-c.html
- idiotsecant 4y agoIt was right in front of us all along, all you have to do is mount a moped engine to your one front wheel! On side note, it says that it is an aluminum body, which must have been a pretty fancy thing at the time!
- gene-h 4y agoWhy stop at 80 degrees? With electric drive it's possible to do 360 degree steering[0]. [0]https://www.proteanelectric.com/technology/#protean360plus https://www.proteanelectric.com/technology/#protean360plus
- ninju 4y agoEye-catching graphics and cool soundtrack What about a real product?
- The_suffocated 4y agoNear the end of the article: > As impressive as the video is, there is no word whether this product is ready for market or not.
- anentropic 4y agoLooks great! Couldn't help noticing the video appears to show the demo car also has 4WS with rear wheels also steering ZF's own page about this has a bunch more info https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/stories/maneuverable.html https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/stories/maneuverable.htm... Their page also contradicts the Interesting Engineering where it said: "The system further requires an unusually large amount of space in the wheel wells to get that kind of angle, one that can only be achieved in front-wheel drive vehicles." The ZF page states the opposite: "EasyTurn is suitable for vehicles with rear-wheel drive, the usual setup in electric cars. And it is ideally suited for volume segments because the MacPherson axle is compatible with around 80 percent of today's common platforms"
- bbarn 4y ago> Couldn't help noticing the video appears to show the demo car also has 4WS with rear wheels also steering First thing I noticed as well. I would imagine it's also possible without it, but you'd likely be losing traction on the rear inside wheel? At slow speeds some cars already do this anyway, even with the differential helping minimize it.
- photoGrant 4y agoYou use a lovely thing called a haladex
- jacquesm 4y agoHaldex?
- photoGrant 4y agoAw dangit why do you have to spot the a like that!
- jjtheblunt 4y agoor torsen
- anuvrat1 4y agoDrifters would love this.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y agoThat's cool. However (there's always a fly in the ointment), we'd need to see how robust it is (front axles take a real beating), and how expensive it is to equip and maintain.
- _yb2s 4y agoDespite what the article says, this is only for RWD cars with no front axles.
- iancmceachern 4y agoIt should read "mechanical engineers invent..."
- moffkalast 4y agoMechanical scientists!
- moffkalast 4y agoThis sort of thing keeps getting invented over and over for the past hundred years but never seems to stick, and cars stay impossible to parallel park.
- dsego 4y agoimpossible? people do it every day
- moffkalast 4y agoWell in the true sense of moving the car completely sideways. They even had it working in the 50s on production cars to some degree with the extra rear wheel.
- yesdocs 4y agoQueue the accidents that will occur by over correcting in distress
- hinkley 4y agoThe Triumph Spitfire is notable for a few reasons. Besides having a Center of Gravity lower than the axle, giving it zero body roll when cornering, it was also a 12’11” long car with a 12’1” turning radius. It could turn around in less than two car lengths. I don’t think that’s 80° but it’s damned close. That vehicle ceased production sometime around 1979.
- Nick87633 4y ago>Center of Gravity lower than the >axle, giving it zero body roll >when cornering That's not exactly how it works, the center of gravity should match up with the kinematic roll center of the axle linkage for there to be zero rolling moment.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mrcarruthers 4y agoI have one. It's a RWD car and the front wheels can turn so much that instead of turning, the car will actually start to drag the front wheels unless you're going really slow.
- hinkley 4y agoRWD and a high torque motor. I'm pretty sure someone somewhere has managed to snap some connecting rods in the front end by being stupid.
- dqpb 4y agoI prefer the surrealism of omni wheels.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- baybal2 4y ago
- giarc 4y agoLooks cool, but is this a solution in search of a problem?
- tiagod 4y agoI drive (and parallel park) in Lisbon regularly and having this on my car would be a godsend.
- wolrah 4y ago> Looks cool, but is this a solution in search of a problem? The problem of maneuvering vehicles in tight spaces and parallel parking with limited room is a real one that anyone can observe by just standing around in places with heavily occupied streetside parking. Whether that problem is annoying enough to the right people to be worth the cost of this system is a different matter, but there is definitely no problem searching required here.
- avidphantasm 4y agoNow people who grew up in suburbs will have to find a new excuse for not being able to parallel park.
- laxatives 4y agoMy Dyson vacuum cleaner has a mechanism that can steer in pretty much every angle that isn't gimbal locked. If we're still talking about things you could do without regard to practicality, it could steer in 360 degrees in a RWD.
- Damogran6 4y agoLots of similarities to drifting car parts...also: Doesn't look compatible with FWD
- gnicholas 4y ago> Do you have trouble with parallel parking? Many times when I see people having difficulty parallel parking, it’s because they don’t know when to turn and how much. They end up parked 3 feet from the curb because of their timing errors. Something like this would make it easier to park in spaces, but it won’t fix of not knowing the steps to parallel park.
- a_t48 4y agoI was better at parallel parking before I got a new car. Super afraid about curb rash. :(
- gnicholas 4y agoI rarely use my car's self-parking feature, largely because it forces me to pull forward way too far before it will take over. But I've started activating the self-parking mode while I park manually, since it forces the backup camera to be turned on at all times. Otherwise it's only on when I'm in reverse.
- Terr_ 4y agoAs much as I love these concepts, there's a hidden externality to consider: If one car only needs extremely small margins to park, it's possible for conventional cars ahead or behind to lose too much of their normally-expected larger buffer space, and be unable to (easily) leave.
- wolrah 4y ago> If one car only needs extremely small margins to park, it's possible for conventional cars ahead or behind to lose too much of their normally-expected larger buffer space, and be unable to (easily) leave. Doesn't the same apply already with large low-maneuverability vehicles versus subcompacts? If there's a Ford Excursion or Chevy Suburban overhanging a parallel parking space in to the space in front of it, there's a good chance my Fiesta still fits just fine. If I park there, that's probably going to make it harder for them to leave. I know in a lot of the world the American city style of parallel parking with defined spaces isn't a thing, you just park along the curb wherever your vehicle fits, but still this situation already exists. Smart cars, those little one seat city runabouts, motorcycles, etc. will fill the tiniest gaps given the opportunity and people still get by.
- wkearney99 4y agoThat was my first impression as well, seeing how close the vehicles ended up.
- Thorrez 4y agoThat can already happen if a car parks without centering itself forward-and-backward-wise between the front and back cars.
- ummonk 4y agoI'm mildly amused that the animation for the second car parallel parking seems to be placed too far forward and thus scrapes the bumper of the car in front.
- donohoe 4y agoTo be fair, you'd have to be a mechanic to invent an axle
- znpy 4y agoI couldn't care less about in-car enterntainment systems or heated seats. But this... I want this.
- _trampeltier 4y agoSolution from 1927 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QilY00dCof8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QilY00dCof8 This was even 90 degrees
- jacquesm 4y agoNice find, I never knew that such a thing was done in that way. You really don't want to think about what would happen if that mechanism ever triggered while driving :) Also, I wonder how they kept the alignment properly, that is a pretty small tolerance affair unless you want to go through a new set every 1000 km or so.
- permo-w 4y agoboth wheels turn inwards, which means that one of them must have to change direction of rotation. that sounds like a remarkably difficult mechanical problem to solve reliably
- elihu 4y agoI don't think those are drive wheels in front, it looks like they just spin freely. In back you can see a regular axle with a differential, so it's apparently rear-wheel drive. I'm not sure how they get the car to rotate, though... there's probably either some mechanically interesting trick to it, or some clever camera trickery going on.
- permo-w 4y agoah yes you're right. perhaps one front wheel is powered somehow? is that mechanically feasible with the technology of the day?
- elihu 4y agoI suppose an easy way to do it is to have a little drive wheel sticking out about where the license plate is, and as the front wheels turn inward, one of them makes contact with the drive wheel (like the capstan or pinch roller in a reel-to-reel tape machine). But we don't see anything like that in the video. I think if this is a real thing and not some kind of rigged demo, there's probably something weird about the rear differential or rear drive wheels. Maybe it has an alternate mode where you can't go forward, but the wheels spin in opposite directions when you apply engine torque? I'm not sure what would be the easiest way to do that. Maybe there are two drive shafts, one for forward and one for spinning in place? When the latter of the two is engaged, the "normal" drive shaft is locked in place by a brake forcing the wheels to rotate in equal and opposite directions (due to the differential) and the other drive shaft powers one of the rear wheels somehow.
- jacquesm 4y agoAnother car that will do very tight turns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1UaC51OSPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1UaC51OSPw
- Marlon1788 4y agohope those tires can hold up
- stevenjgarner 4y agoPuts my rage in perspective when the Chevrolet Silverado devours > 22ft with its turning radius.
- exar0815 4y agoOne thing I am wondering - i mean, everyone in the US knows Ford invented the automobile and the diesel engine was named after an american called Vin, but since when is ZF a US-company?
- mulmen 4y agoSince 2016: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_Friedrichshafen#ZF-TRW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_Friedrichshafen#ZF-TRW.
- FabHK 4y agoRelated tidbit about London's black cabs: > London taxis must have a turning circle not greater than 8.535 m (28 ft). One reason for this is the configuration of the famed Savoy Hotel: the hotel entrance's small roundabout meant that vehicles needed the small turning circle in order to navigate it. That requirement became the legally required turning circles for all London cabs, while the custom of a passenger's sitting on the right, behind the driver, provided a reason for the right-hand traffic in Savoy Court, allowing hotel patrons to board and alight from the driver's side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney_carriage#Vehicle_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney_carriage#Vehicle_desig...
- Gravityloss 4y agoSince it seems to have rear wheel steering, if each wheel can turn independently and enough, then the car could be rotated in place.
- CoffeeOnWrite 4y agoThe article title says 80 degrees. My layman understanding is rotating in place means 90 degrees. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- Gravityloss 4y agoThink about a circle that has the center in the center of the car, and all wheels on the perimeter. Then each wheel has to turn along the tangent of the circle. That is the circle each wheel will go along when the vehicle is spinning in place. So it's less than 90 degrees. For example the left front wheel turns right, a bit less than 90 degrees.
- fauria 4y agoThat stationary spin is exactly what Rivian does, they call it "tank turn": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BkxjHkOvYY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BkxjHkOvYY
- mulmen 4y agoCan the system "tank turn" around an arbitrary point instead of the center of the vehicle? I can imagine some situations where a tank turn might be useful but a common scenario is parallel parking where I would prefer to pivot around the rear bumper.
- Gravityloss 4y agoNo, that's based on sideways slippage. How a tank or a Bobcat construction vehicle turns.
- Sporktacular 4y agoFascinating to see old ideas make a comeback, like wireless power or that antique Sunbeam toaster. Seems to be for a few reasons but one is that mass production seems to carry enough compromises that we eventually accept them for long enough to forget how some things were better when volumes were smaller.
- olivermarks 4y agoFor those who enjoy drifting cars (in some cases at urban sideshows) there are lots of 'angle kits' to tighten a vehicles steering angles, enabling the driver to break the tires loose easier. The reason why mass produced cars don't have these is because it wears the suspension out a lot quicker and puts great stress on the bodyshell. ChrisFix drift car build -How to Install an Angle Kit (Shopping Cart Angle) https://youtu.be/39ACFSrZJrM https://youtu.be/39ACFSrZJrM
- nine_k 4y agoI don't understand why moving slowly sideways would put a greater stress on the car body than moving forward. No opinion, just want to understand the mechanics of it.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- spaetzleesser 4y agoA lot of the bearings are designed to take force from a certain angle. If the forces come now from a different angle they will wear out. An example would be wheel bearings. They don’t handle pressure from the side very well. The same applies for a lot of other parts.
- olivermarks 4y agoA car is designed to roll forwards on steel banded rubber tires on axle wheel bearings, with suspension designed to absorb bumps and cornering stresses before they reach the body. If you are breaking the tires loose and sliding sideways (still with forward propelling traction) you are putting enormous stresses on components not designed for that which is why racing cars have enormously beefed up suspensions, a roll cage that greatly stiffens the body and polyurethane bushings that give a harsh but very direct 'feel' to the ride.
- spaetzleesser 4y agoI am noticing more and more how headlines are promoting the big brand names and ignoring lesser known institutions. If somebody at Stanford or MIT had developed this the headline would be “Stanford/MIT scientists invented….”. With smaller schools they probably would have written “scientists invented”. And with ZF it’s just “mechanics”. The famous get more famous and the less famous get ignored. It’s a really bad spiral that the ones that already have everting are getting all the attention.
- rasz 4y ago"invented". Standard stuff in drifting. https://www.tuningblog.eu/en/categories/tuning-wiki/steering-angle-kit-294940/ https://www.tuningblog.eu/en/categories/tuning-wiki/steering...
- jeffroe 4y agoThis would be so much more useful on the ever growing pickup trucks in the US. Even a little tighter turning radius would help in parking lots and garages.