6 ms·

> Then, why is it "Children's?", you might ask. Because it is operated by the schoolchildren, 9-15 years old. This blew my mind, and immediately made me thin

> Then, why is it "Children's?", you might ask. Because it is operated by the schoolchildren, 9-15 years old. This blew my mind, and immediately made me think of John Taylor-Gatto [1] who won numerous teaching awards trying, but ultimately failing, to convince American teachers to show children the same respect. My 30 year old masters students are not even allowed to run their own WiFi network never mind an actual RAILWAY NETWORK that carries real passengers. Going way beyond Montessori's philosophies, Gatto (and similarly Sir Ken Robinson) insisted children should learn real life skills by being given responsibility. His methods were revolutionary and transformed some of the worst New York schools. This scared the living shit out of governors and politicians who realised such a radical agenda might create young adults able to think and politically organise. [1] https://www.diygenius.com/changemakers-john-taylor-gatto/ https://www.diygenius.com/changemakers-john-taylor-gatto/

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> My 30 year old masters students are not even allowed to run their own WiFi network Because they're students, or because IT doesn't want random people running their own networks that are halfway part of the school's systems but independently administered?
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > because IT doesn't want random people running their own networks that are halfway part of the school's systems but independently administered? IT people have nothing to do with it. They just peck at webmin interfaces and pretend to understand what Microsoft tell them to do. If it were up to IT they'd just grunt and shrug, and the students would get on with it. Decisions to directly counter to the core mission of the institution and stand between students and the education they paid for are way above IT's pay grade. For that we have a special class of random, low skilled people with an over-inflated sense of themselves called "policy makers" - a different cadre of unassailable, unaccountable centre of "shadow power" IT guys can only dream of :)
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    I'm way too much of a simpleton to comprehend your philosophical musings of cosmic proportions, but this I know: students should not be in charge of the WiFi or anything else network related at an academic institution. This is a job for professional, dedicated IT staff.
    - dalbasal 4y ago
      I'm not following. Are you in favour of letting children operate trains or against it?
      - nightpool 4y ago
        The GP was saying that comparing the children's railway to IT limitations preventing graduate students from running their own WiFi networks is absolutely ridiculous. University IT has lots of good reasons for centralizing the administration and allocation of WiFi networks that have nothing to do with "children" (30 year olds) not being "respected"
        dalbasal 4y ago
        Railway networks have many reasons to not let children run a rail line. I realize there are reasons and arguments for the default position, but well... these are arguments for the default position. Of course WiFi admin is different from rail transport from farm management, etc. That doesn't negate the fact that they're also similar in some respects, and affected in similar ways by prevailing culture and attitudes.
    - nonrandomstring 4y ago
      Pretty obviously I'm the professor, right? The assignment is WiFi AP points and attacking authentication. It's in the syllabus (signed, sealed and approved all the way up to VC). Attacking the institutional access points would definitely not be okay. Where do you suppose professional, dedicated IT staff come from?
thr0wawayf00 4y ago
> This scared the living shit out of governors and politicians who realised such a radical agenda might create young adults able to think and politically organise. Can you provide any examples of this? I'm skeptical of this claim given that Gatto was a prominent Libertarian, which don't really believe in political organization. The Libertarian movement is inherently individualistic. Not to mention his work with a Christian documentary about children failing to learn about family and God in public school[0]. Not to cast stones here, but organized religion isn't big on teaching critical thinking either. I can't find any quotes or responses from a governor or politician that supports your characterization of his work. 0: http://www.indoctrinationmovie.com/ http://www.indoctrinationmovie.com/
- eru 4y ago
  > Not to cast stones here, but organized religion isn't big on teaching critical thinking either. Some kinds of critical thinking are totally encouraged in eg some forms of Judaism and Christian Protestantism. (I don't know enough about other religions to comment.)
- smeej 4y ago
  The list of scientists, authors, and innovators who were not only Catholics, but Catholic priests is enormous. Maybe you've met some dopey religious folks, but don't paint with too broad a brush.
  - thr0wawayf00 4y ago
    Yep, and a lot of them lived back when being accused of heresy by the church was literally a death sentence. So again, not exactly an environment that fostered critical thinking, certainly one that punished speaking out against the church in any sort of way. Galileo, for example, was condemned on his death bed by the pope and buried in an unceremoniously small room next to the novice's chapel for almost 100 years before he was reburied in the main basilica[0] . 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death
    - 4y ago
anovikov 4y ago
These children were mostly railway workers' kids. Whole purpose of it was to teach them railway jobs were cool to make them follow their parents' steps. In the Soviet Union, and to a great extent in Russia till now, railway system is very independent from the State. It's frequently called a state within a state. It has it's own power stations, construction departments that build among other things, housing for workers, their own hospitals and even their own medical schools, it's own police, their own hotels and Black Sea resorts for workers, in the Soviet times they had even their own Gulags. It's a closed-loop system largely independent from the rest of it. So they have their own take on schooling, too. Happened that way because after the Revolution of 1917, the state largely collapsed and was unable to do shit for at least next 6-7 years. Railway had to figure out how to work on its own.
- f6v 4y ago
  You’d be surprised but Deutsche Bahn fit the description as well.
  - bionsystem 4y ago
    Can we find similar ideas in the way Samsung is run ?
    - f6v 4y ago
      I think many huge corporations start building their own resorts, housing, hospitals, etc. I mean, you can practically live at Google campus, right?
      - progre 4y ago
        All self respecting industry operations in Sweden (steel, wood, papermills, weapons) had their own seaside resorts for workers from about 1920 to the late 1980-ies. Most had housing and company clinics too. Some of these companies were state owned, some in private hands. It all ended when the world went stock-market crazy and the maximize profit guys started to "core-business" the industries, and colsolidation started. I think that capitalism was kind of hi-jacked by the money guys at that point. Lots of company towns where, if not thriving, getting along, working. Not super profitable but doing ok. Then practically overnight they turned to wasteland when the mills closed.
avodonosov 4y ago
The responsibility here is to give rides to other children. It is not used for real transportation needs.
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  Responsibility refers here to is transporting actual humans (that will die or will be maimed in case of an accident).
  - avodonosov 4y ago
    In this sense yes. The phrase "real passengers" can be interpretted differently, more seriously. But I am not sure the drivers are children. And even if they are, of course not the yongest ones. And if 14/15 year old is allowed to drive after getting trained, it is not a big problem, I think. In some countries 15 year olds can drive cars. In any case, this railroad is supervised by adults. It is more of an educational establishment. We have such a railroad here in Minsk. I never cared to visit, even when was a child. Although I briefly knew one person attending it, he was dreaming to work on railroad.
peace4all 4y ago
It probably meant that the railway was for kids as passengers. But also, in Russian language, "child" doesn't imply someone younger than teenager, it does include adolescents too. There is a distinct term for "adolescent", but no distinct term for English "kid" or "toddler" except for some regional variants. Hence, "childrens' railway" is the most broad term for it. Also, naming it "adolescents' railway" sounded more complex in Russian, a bit awkward, and would make visitors wonder: "do they allow little kids to ride?" Regarding running the railway, there are very strict limitations what adolescents can do and what they can't do. IIRC, they can't control the fuelling of the vehicle, and some other arbitrary operations. Probably, they can't drive the engine, but just sit next to an adult driver. Respect for the link to John T. Gatto, he was a great thinker, I even translated one of his essays from a link posted here a decade ago.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

> My 30 year old masters students are not even allowed to run their own WiFi network Because they're students, or because IT doesn't want random people running their own networks that are halfway part of the school's systems but independently administered?

nonrandomstring 4y ago
> because IT doesn't want random people running their own networks that are halfway part of the school's systems but independently administered? IT people have nothing to do with it. They just peck at webmin interfaces and pretend to understand what Microsoft tell them to do. If it were up to IT they'd just grunt and shrug, and the students would get on with it. Decisions to directly counter to the core mission of the institution and stand between students and the education they paid for are way above IT's pay grade. For that we have a special class of random, low skilled people with an over-inflated sense of themselves called "policy makers" - a different cadre of unassailable, unaccountable centre of "shadow power" IT guys can only dream of :)
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  I'm way too much of a simpleton to comprehend your philosophical musings of cosmic proportions, but this I know: students should not be in charge of the WiFi or anything else network related at an academic institution. This is a job for professional, dedicated IT staff.
  - dalbasal 4y ago
    I'm not following. Are you in favour of letting children operate trains or against it?
    - nightpool 4y ago
      The GP was saying that comparing the children's railway to IT limitations preventing graduate students from running their own WiFi networks is absolutely ridiculous. University IT has lots of good reasons for centralizing the administration and allocation of WiFi networks that have nothing to do with "children" (30 year olds) not being "respected"
      - dalbasal 4y ago
        Railway networks have many reasons to not let children run a rail line. I realize there are reasons and arguments for the default position, but well... these are arguments for the default position. Of course WiFi admin is different from rail transport from farm management, etc. That doesn't negate the fact that they're also similar in some respects, and affected in similar ways by prevailing culture and attitudes.
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    Pretty obviously I'm the professor, right? The assignment is WiFi AP points and attacking authentication. It's in the syllabus (signed, sealed and approved all the way up to VC). Attacking the institutional access points would definitely not be okay. Where do you suppose professional, dedicated IT staff come from?

thr0wawayf00 4y ago

> This scared the living shit out of governors and politicians who realised such a radical agenda might create young adults able to think and politically organise. Can you provide any examples of this? I'm skeptical of this claim given that Gatto was a prominent Libertarian, which don't really believe in political organization. The Libertarian movement is inherently individualistic. Not to mention his work with a Christian documentary about children failing to learn about family and God in public school[0]. Not to cast stones here, but organized religion isn't big on teaching critical thinking either. I can't find any quotes or responses from a governor or politician that supports your characterization of his work. 0: http://www.indoctrinationmovie.com/ http://www.indoctrinationmovie.com/

eru 4y ago
> Not to cast stones here, but organized religion isn't big on teaching critical thinking either. Some kinds of critical thinking are totally encouraged in eg some forms of Judaism and Christian Protestantism. (I don't know enough about other religions to comment.)
smeej 4y ago
The list of scientists, authors, and innovators who were not only Catholics, but Catholic priests is enormous. Maybe you've met some dopey religious folks, but don't paint with too broad a brush.
- thr0wawayf00 4y ago
  Yep, and a lot of them lived back when being accused of heresy by the church was literally a death sentence. So again, not exactly an environment that fostered critical thinking, certainly one that punished speaking out against the church in any sort of way. Galileo, for example, was condemned on his death bed by the pope and buried in an unceremoniously small room next to the novice's chapel for almost 100 years before he was reburied in the main basilica[0] . 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death
  - 4y ago

anovikov 4y ago

These children were mostly railway workers' kids. Whole purpose of it was to teach them railway jobs were cool to make them follow their parents' steps. In the Soviet Union, and to a great extent in Russia till now, railway system is very independent from the State. It's frequently called a state within a state. It has it's own power stations, construction departments that build among other things, housing for workers, their own hospitals and even their own medical schools, it's own police, their own hotels and Black Sea resorts for workers, in the Soviet times they had even their own Gulags. It's a closed-loop system largely independent from the rest of it. So they have their own take on schooling, too. Happened that way because after the Revolution of 1917, the state largely collapsed and was unable to do shit for at least next 6-7 years. Railway had to figure out how to work on its own.

f6v 4y ago
You’d be surprised but Deutsche Bahn fit the description as well.
- bionsystem 4y ago
  Can we find similar ideas in the way Samsung is run ?
  - f6v 4y ago
    I think many huge corporations start building their own resorts, housing, hospitals, etc. I mean, you can practically live at Google campus, right?
    - progre 4y ago
      All self respecting industry operations in Sweden (steel, wood, papermills, weapons) had their own seaside resorts for workers from about 1920 to the late 1980-ies. Most had housing and company clinics too. Some of these companies were state owned, some in private hands. It all ended when the world went stock-market crazy and the maximize profit guys started to "core-business" the industries, and colsolidation started. I think that capitalism was kind of hi-jacked by the money guys at that point. Lots of company towns where, if not thriving, getting along, working. Not super profitable but doing ok. Then practically overnight they turned to wasteland when the mills closed.

avodonosov 4y ago

The responsibility here is to give rides to other children. It is not used for real transportation needs.

matkoniecz 4y ago
Responsibility refers here to is transporting actual humans (that will die or will be maimed in case of an accident).
- avodonosov 4y ago
  In this sense yes. The phrase "real passengers" can be interpretted differently, more seriously. But I am not sure the drivers are children. And even if they are, of course not the yongest ones. And if 14/15 year old is allowed to drive after getting trained, it is not a big problem, I think. In some countries 15 year olds can drive cars. In any case, this railroad is supervised by adults. It is more of an educational establishment. We have such a railroad here in Minsk. I never cared to visit, even when was a child. Although I briefly knew one person attending it, he was dreaming to work on railroad.

peace4all 4y ago

It probably meant that the railway was for kids as passengers. But also, in Russian language, "child" doesn't imply someone younger than teenager, it does include adolescents too. There is a distinct term for "adolescent", but no distinct term for English "kid" or "toddler" except for some regional variants. Hence, "childrens' railway" is the most broad term for it. Also, naming it "adolescents' railway" sounded more complex in Russian, a bit awkward, and would make visitors wonder: "do they allow little kids to ride?" Regarding running the railway, there are very strict limitations what adolescents can do and what they can't do. IIRC, they can't control the fuelling of the vehicle, and some other arbitrary operations. Probably, they can't drive the engine, but just sit next to an adult driver. Respect for the link to John T. Gatto, he was a great thinker, I even translated one of his essays from a link posted here a decade ago.